Can we have Shade skills around the scourge back to old setting in PvE?

[Voltekka.2375]

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@totaloverride.3240 said:

@"Trise.2865" said:Or you could play it as intended and put actual thought into where to place a Shade and how to move, instead of dumping them wherever and face-tanking everything.

tried that, but 20sec is sooo long when "place shade" is on CD

@"Lexi.1398" said:TBH all they need is a "remove shade/s" button and done.

@Voltekka.2375 said:Place shade on yourself. 10 targets. Youre welcome.

scourge become close combat class instead of ranged condikinda was able to manage huge crowds in PvE, (scare/fear shade was like a wall)

@ZDragon.3046 said:Its more than likely going to happen as a short term fixI dont really like scourge as it is right now but i support the change of reverting this back in pve considering it killed me in raids last week.Yea its not fun with how clunky it is right now.

Scourge was heavely nerfed, imo...proof is that there is not so many Scourges in WvW for a long time.remember Scourge zergs fights in WvW in the begining?

now i can't use shade to help friend in tough situation PvE or WvWthe moment you put shade away from you, you become so fragile,i miss scaring ads in boss fights

Thats not correct scourge was adjusted in wvw to try and make them more risky when using their shades but at the same time their shades got considerably more effective which is not a good thing overall for larger zerg fights. Effectively shades got a hard buff in wvw because not having the shade skills go off on you at the same time in wvw does not matter. You are not fighting on the front line so you dont need the effects on you.

At the same time because the changes were tied to pve and pvp scourge changed in both modesIn pvp Scourge is now too risky to use and the reward is not high enough for the literally lack of soft and hard defense they have.They now have no self protection from shade effects if they have a shade active and become sitting ducks. Or must thrown themselves into the middle of a fight with no defenses and not use shades to keep personal effects. Overall the playstyle is too unbalanced and the trade off is now too heavily balanced in the wrong direction

In pve scourge still works its just a bit more clunky as now effects only trigger on the shades as in my example above transfusion for heal scourge will currently teleport you to the shade instead of scourge trying to rez you should you go down. And where is the shade most often located? Its on the boss or some other spot that you probably dont want to be should you go down.

Overall scourge needs a total rework of its design at some point in the future. Less boon corruption more effectiveness in some other form thats not just aoe zone control.With the split of pve and pvp now going into effect they can bring the shades back to the scourge in pve and maybe pvp only for a short time as a short term solution.

In wvw they need to look at maybe reducing the max range that a shade can be placed. IF you want to defend the front line with your shades then it should-require some risk to place it in the first place.

Scourge boon corruption is a non issue in pve. Powerscourge is a non issue in pve.Actually boon corrupts in general are a problem in pve just not in the way of how most people think. They are useless in 90% of pve with the exception being some fractals when a instability is applied and some raids and a few bosses in the PoF areas that said even those things dont boon spam enough to warrant the gross amount of boon corrupt built into necormancer over the years. In pve the overwhelming amount of boon corrupt built into skill design lowers the potential qualities that many skills could have in terms of things like condition application, damage, cooldown, barrier application, and utility.

IF you think boon corruption is a non issue in pve then you got it all wrong.

If you want to talk about wvw, sure. Nerf corrupts (which were already nerfed both via scepter 3 nerf and unending corruption was removed/changed to harbringer shroud, something noone uses). Less boonremoval means more boonspam. We already have enough boonspam...

Clearly you have not seen the post from the dev talking about how from going forward pve balance and design will no longer be tied to pvp and wvw at all and how they pretty much plan to nerf everything across the board in pvp and wvw.Which includes boons. As he put the general direction its down and that they are primarily looking at nerfs in the future patches. If its good or meta right now its considered to be too strong or stronger than they want it to be.

It was also mentioned that as boon generation / spam is droped there will be a lesser need for boon corrupts which is a good thing as i think the key feature of boon corruption that was suppose to be a unique tool of necromancer has just become a gatekeeping balance tool for the other 8 professions which is just disgusting in general

Wait a minute. First you say... "90% of pve needs no booncorrupts with exception of fractals/raids and an odd boss here and there" and then... "if you think boon corruption is a non issue in pve you got it all wrong". Well, which is it? Last i checked, necro corrupt is a core line and pve scourge never, ever even remotely uses traits and utilities that corrupt boons, instead they trait for max condi damage. I play a lot of pve and corrupts are extremely situational, condidps or that support tank barrier build are all that people use. Furthermore, with the addition of spellbreaker it was very clear to everyone that boons are in dire need of a counter (winda of disenchantment with traits that remove more boons), yet necro is somehow... Overcorrupting? We need an extra "non gatekeeping" corrupt class? Dunno what you mean by that statement, maybe more classes should mass booncorrupt and nec can get nerfed in this aspect? I mainly play wvw and i can tell you that most times, spellbreakers have the most corrupts in fights (with the abovementioned skills) and necros usually follow. Lastly, I have read all dev posts about incoming changes, but I also read previous dev quotes that said they can only split skills between modes so much. I am all for nerfs, PROPER nerfs, not the usual "oh just increase the cd on every f scourge skill" or the "rework" wvw chronomesmer got (which effectively killed the class), or the holo "nerf" which virtually left the class untouched.

Ok lets slow down here and go back through this again.

First lets talk PVE! <<<< P.V.E

Lets try to get one thing right, I didnt say necromancer "needs no boon corrupts" Please dont put words in my mouth that I didnt say. I am implying that necormancer could use less of them in pve because in pve in most cases there are no boons to corrupt. The enemies that generate boons in this mode are far and few. Yes boon corruption should continue to be a key feature unique to the necromancer without a doubt but unless the global scale of pve undergoes a massive design change where the majority of foes start generating boons there is no reason to have as many boon corrupts.Optimal condi dps builds do not use boon corruption utilities and even if you do the boon corruption mechanic portion is wasted. For example corrupt boon. Even if you use this to inflict conditions on yourself to xfer to a target the boon corruption portion is still wasted. This is bad design. IF there was a secondary mechanic in pve only that caused boonless foes to be inflicted with conditions it would be fine but thats not the current case. With pve balance design now being split from pvp and wvw. It means either corrupt boon can now gain an additional feature or have some of their boon corruption mechanic replaced with another one in pve only to make it useful. This also applies to other skills that corrupt boonsIn the case of scourge every single utility has boon corruption on it including the heal which is out right horrid. Especially for pve where once again you wont see boons heavily being applied in alot of the content. Perhaps the skills could inflict more conditions or provide more boons, have longer duration, or lower cooldowns in pve only but because design has always been tied to pvp and wvw the boon corruption must be considered as a part of how "loaded" any skill is. Perhaps the heal could have better barrier value if not for the boon corruption. Perhaps the elite could inflict more conditions if not for the boon corruption.

Remember here im talking about pve only and boon corruption in pve is a problem because its wasted in 90% of the content.

Now lets talk PvP and WvW

First of all covering spell breaker. ITs clear that this spec was aimed at the pvp wvw game mode more so than pve its geared toward fighting magical themed foes and fighting boons this is no surprise.When it comes to necromancer as stated scourge was invited to the game with a massive i mean MASSIVE overhaul of boon corruption built into its skills, traits, and utilities. This was also to combat the increasing level of boons that would enter the game with the PoF elite specs. Even if you count spell breaker it not nearly as effective at removing boons like necromancer is. Necromancer has been having boon corruption added for a while now its still the main manager of boons which is fine and it should remain the strongest manager of boons as part of its profession theme and for the sake of having a unique mechanic however there is no reason why boons should have gotten as out of control as they are in wvw and pvp.

IF you go read the forums right now you will see that anet is planning to roll this stuff back quite a bit and if boon spam decreases in effectiveness obviously boon corruption will also need to decrease in effectiveness.

Closing

This is now about getting the "chronomancer" rework its about toning down all the features that have gotten out of hand that includes 1 shot dps, condi application, boon application, and yes boon corruption.This is a good chance for anet to really rebalance wvw and pvp now that things wont be tied to pve this gives them alot more freedom to properly manage how effective a single player can be on any particular build.Here ill refer you to the

answers

i got back

That said this is now way off topic i wont continue the conversation with you past this.

Noone put words in your mouth. I quoted EXACTLY what you yourself said. Moreover, we both agree on the pve issue. Since pve has little need for booncorrupting, why does nec have so much of it, right? You can opt to NOT trait for it. Much like an ele can opt to trait as bunker build in pve (since noone uses it, why should it have bunker build traits and skills, right?). You can choose what your toon will do best.Now, lets focus on competitive modes, shall we? You say (and i quote what YOU said, precise words) : "Necromancer has been having boon corruption added for a while now". History tells us that... Devouring darkness removes fewer boons (2 instead of 3). Shroud skills cd (F skills) was substantially increased (doubled). Unending corruption was removed. I fail to see how necro corrupts more boons as time passes. I do hope you can elaborate on this!Lastly, while i do not doubt that Anet has the best intentions for the game, history isnt on their side. Poor, very poor (and this is an understatement) communication about alliances, balance patches that actually favor the pirateship meta, killing of classes while others still run rampant (did you know that classes can oneshot people still, from stealth, or from 1200+ range, despite any nerfs that may have happened?). Intentions are good and all, implementation is another thing altogether. And since wvw has been getting ZERO attention for many many years, for give me if i am not overly optimistic. A prime example is the introduction of a mount in wvw, something the overwhelming majority of wvwers warmed against. Yet Anet ignored this and... Voila. Skill lag is worse than ever. Balance as well. If you dont play wvw, you probably dont know any of the above.

[totaloverride.3240]

@"noiwk.2760" said:i think Scourge is awful to play in PVE now. they wanted to nerf it in wvw and pvp. but they nerfed it in PVE instead.this is an awful and unwelcvome change especially when Scourge wasnt even a meta or anything close to it in both raids or fractals and never needed a pve nerfa buff if anything...

Agree

problem with WvW/PvP after nerfing.Scourge Squad shades-carpet was very problematic, taking insto acount shades on players, you get "lava-floor/carpet".but: now you can't (just can't) play Scourge as roamer. there wasn'y many Scourge roamers, tho. now: none.i was playing power scg in WvW, now you can get easy killed by t2 camp guards. you place shade => you are dead.everywhere i look, i see FB, core Thief or DD and few PewPew 1500 range one-shot-kill-dudu.

PvE after nerfingWhy in world, did ANet nerf PvE?!did you try to kill Giant Champ in Cursed Shore? do you get melted by grubs or some ads on other champs?wanna try solo MAMA now? Siren's Reef mobs?

problem is that you need to stay inside Shade to survive, so you practicaly become self-immobilized if you put shade somewhere.CD (shade lifetime) is like "forever" and Necro never was dmg sustain class, as, let's say, warrior. so if you get surrounded by ads, you are dead.

@"Voltekka.2375" said:Since pve has little need for booncorrupting, why does nec have so much of it, right?(did you know that classes can oneshot people still, from stealth, or from 1200+ range, despite any nerfs that may have happened?)

Agree...boon corruption in PvE... anyone use that?!boon corruption in WvW with so much sustain/cleanse/"Resistance" on other classes...with shades around player, Scourge got some chance to survive surprise/stealth attack, without it... not so much...Scourges don't even have decent condi cleanse ("you must have target", "you must hit target", you must have pets....) with few conditions on you are helpless.and NOW ANet destroys only thing that made Scourge playable...

maybe i'm playing this wrong... Maybe ANet plans to remove Necro class altogether.

[totaloverride.3240]

@ZDragon.3046 said:Thats not correct scourge was adjusted in wvw to try and make them more risky when using their shades but at the same time their shades got considerably more effective which is not a good thing overall for larger zerg fights.

playing scourge in WvW is risky. no decent cleanse, no dmg sustain, our health is all we got (20k on full zerk).but there is so many one-shot-kill-classes like dudus, DA, FB, or few-shots-kill, even mesmer is more survivable than necro.

as Scourge i was runing into a fight against 2-3 enemies, and survive until reinforcement arrive. and being victorious in scourge vs one or two enemies fights.now you see 2 - RUN, HIDE, PORT, DCnow you see 1, you must check it's class, and then decide do you risk fight.

With this nerf, scourge is removed from WvW.FB and Thief reign supreme.

[noiwk.2760]

they really just ruined Scourge might be better just delete it .. to be fair they are just awful at balance. look at crow or meta battle only few builds are in the meta and accepted. they honestly just love guard ... both Reaper and Scourge are at awful spot in both pvp/wvw and pve (as in endgame pve) they are not vailable at all..Scourge right now can play many things but is not good at anything its not good as support cause it has no boons and its bad at damage. necro is just a class not worth playing in endgame. and they must fix this

[DeadlySynz.3471]

@"Trise.2865" said:Or you could play it as intended and put actual thought into where to place a Shade and how to move, instead of dumping them wherever and face-tanking everything.

Well the problem is, many mobs move, jump around, or shift positions frequently making a static shade pretty useless in PvE. In WvW however, those of us who "play it as intended" and know "where to place the shade" and "how to move" when dropping a shade, is a gigantic buff. Many heavily tanked up front lines now can drop to a double condition shade bomb.

The change pretty much did the opposite of what they were hoping. Those of us who knew the problem with the complaint of "shades take up too much area", knew exactly what was going to happen and how it was going to be addressed. We were right, and knew how the change was going to pan out. Low and behold it did, massive buff. Is that playing as intended? If so, I sure don't mind.

It just goes to show that players really need to put a lot of though into what they're saying before they say it.

[noiwk.2760]

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:

@"Trise.2865" said:Or you could play it as intended and put actual thought into where to place a Shade and how to move, instead of dumping them wherever and face-tanking everything.

Well the problem is, many mobs move, jump around, or shift positions frequently making a static shade pretty useless in PvE. In WvW however, those of us who "play it as intended" and know "where to place the shade" and "how to move" when dropping a shade, is a gigantic buff. Many heavily tanked up front lines now can drop to a double condition shade bomb.

The change pretty much did the opposite of what they were hoping. Those of us who knew the problem with the complaint of "shades take up too much area", knew exactly what was going to happen and how it was going to be addressed. We were right, and knew how the change was going to pan out. Low and behold it did, massive buff. Is that playing as intended? If so, I sure don't mind.

It just goes to show that players really need to put a lot of though into what they're saying before they say it.

but then again.. on pve its not playable anymore.. as you said mobs move and they get out of the shade.. leave alone all the defesnive we lost.. because as dps shade is so small and we are not going to see any barrier on us.. (so why play Scourge? lets be core necro and have extra life bar) but not only that the mobs just move from the shade and we got cd and in this time we basically just dfance like useless ducks waiting for shade.. Scourge is just not worth playing in any PVE anymroe.. its pure WvW class now

[ZDragon.3046]

@totaloverride.3240 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:Thats not correct scourge was adjusted in wvw to try and make them more risky when using their shades but at the same time their shades got considerably more effective which is not a good thing overall for larger zerg fights.

playing scourge in WvW is risky. no decent cleanse, no dmg sustain, our health is all we got (20k on full zerk).Well you know scourge was not meant to be played on full zerk obviously you can do it but thats not what its geared and designed for.Try playing reaper on full condi setup and you wont get good results either.As for cleansing Consume conditions? Plague signet? Spectral walk? Well of power? Some of these are not the best but you certainly have options.but there is so many one-shot-kill-classes like dudus, DA, FB, or few-shots-kill, even mesmer is more survivable than necro.Well yeah.... all that stuff needs to be dropped down too but this is going off topic

as Scourge i was runing into a fight against 2-3 enemies, and survive until reinforcement arrive. and being victorious in scourge vs one or two enemies fights.Well that shouldnt be a thing for any profession or elite to be able to do easily. You do understand this. Tempest could do 1v5 at one time and reaper could handle 1v3's at one time and both those got adjusted so that they couldnt easily sustain that kind of situation.now you see 2 - RUN, HIDE, PORT, DCnow you see 1, you must check it's class, and then decide do you risk fight.Well yeah any time a necromancer sees 2 foes he/she should always consider is risking the engagment worth it. 1v1 is already hard enough for necromancers why would you think you should easily 1v2 or 1v3?With this nerf, scourge is removed from WvW.Scourge is not removed from large scale fights where the shades are on the front lines and they are not dont be mistaken. Roaming (which is what it sounds like you are doing) has never been a necro specialty, low mobility, sustain, limited boons, and evades what do you expect how ever in larger scaled fights which is where most of the balance comes into play scourge is still extremely strong.FB and Thief reign supreme.Yeah and they are in the need of their own nerfs. Just because someone else is broken does not mean you should also be broken.Lets get back ontopic.