Unless Joko was directly/indirectly given divine power his story makes no sense. It wasn't all lies

[Daniel Handler.4816]

1. He was born at a time when the gods intervened in Elona. The country with the Mouth of Torment and the Apocrypha.
2. He provided Balthazar a means of accessing the Domain of the Lost. And taught Scourge how to breach the Realm of Torment.
3. He can be channeled by Warden Amala in the same way she would channel Balthazar.
4. Aurene is able to use his magic. Just like she and Kralkatorrik were able to use War, the only other non-domain magic usage from dragons that eat magic from all domains.

He may not have been a full god. But he was definitely not a mortal spellcaster. At what point is his repeated claims of divinity still a lie?

[Kalavier.1097]

@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

1. He was born at a time when the gods intervened in Elona. The country with the Mouth of Torment and the Apocrypha.
2. He provided Balthazar a means of accessing the Domain of the Lost. And taught Scourge how to breach the Realm of Torment.
3. He can be channeled by Warden Amala in the same way she would channel Balthazar.
4. Aurene is able to use his magic. Just like she and Kralkatorrik were able to use war

He may not have been a full god. But he was definitely not a mortal spellcaster.

1: doesn't meant he has divine power or magic.2: While impressive, it could be that Joko knew of a portal to the mists others did not know about (Like the one in the Tomb of Primeval Kings). Or he knew of how/where the Domain of the Lost was, but required Balthazar to get into it. It's important to note Joko had not been raiding the domain, and part of the deal was "Getting a share of the new recruits". This implies to me that Joko knew of the Realm, and how to get to it, but was unable to himself. Also, briefly breaching the Realm of Torment could've been something he learned right after Nightfall, since the Mouth of Torment is within his lands and demons ran all over his turf.3: Eh, Joko's power is technically touching every Awoken, Especially ones of great important/leading his troops.4: Aurene has only ever "used" his ability to revive himself from "death". She has shown no connection to the Awoken, no ability to raise undead (Or want to).

As for his Mortality, we know he was functionally immortal, as the only thing that could kill him was a creature who consumed magic. When he was first defeated by Turai Ossa, they had to basically slam a massive boulder onto Joko's face to keep him trapped.

As for Divinity... He has never claimed the magic of a god. The way the Six worked was when one god lost his divinity/power, the next took it. Abaddon's power was stripped from him, spread to other gods before Kormir took it. Dhuum's power was stripped from him, Grenth claimed it. Balthazar's power was stripped from him (we don't know if or who took it).

[Daniel Handler.4816]

@Kalavier.1097 said:

@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

1. He was born at a time when the gods intervened in Elona. The country with the Mouth of Torment and the Apocrypha.
2. He provided Balthazar a means of accessing the Domain of the Lost. And taught Scourge how to breach the Realm of Torment.
3. He can be channeled by Warden Amala in the same way she would channel Balthazar.
4. Aurene is able to use his magic. Just like she and Kralkatorrik were able to use war

He may not have been a full god. But he was definitely not a mortal spellcaster.

1: doesn't meant he has divine power or magic.2: While impressive, it could be that Joko knew of a portal to the mists others did not know about (Like the one in the Tomb of Primeval Kings). Or he knew of how/where the Domain of the Lost was, but required Balthazar to get into it. It's important to note Joko had not been raiding the domain, and part of the deal was "Getting a share of the new recruits". This implies to me that Joko knew of the Realm, and how to get to it, but was unable to himself. Also, briefly breaching the Realm of Torment could've been something he learned right after Nightfall, since the Mouth of Torment is within his lands and demons ran all over his turf.3: Eh, Joko's power is technically touching every Awoken, Especially ones of great important/leading his troops.

And? Dervish magic is intended to channel gods. It has nothing to do with an innate connection.

4: Aurene has only ever "used" his ability to revive himself from "death". She has shown no connection to the Awoken, no ability to raise undead (Or want to).

And Kralkatorrik only used War to create portals. Again I'm not seeing the point. She also has the ability to raise the dead because Kralkatorrik did. Whether she wants to incorporate Awokeness into it has no bearing on this discussion.

As for his Mortality, we know he was functionally immortal, as the only thing that could kill him was a creature who consumed magic. When he was first defeated by Turai Ossa, they had to basically slam a massive boulder onto Joko's face to keep him trapped.

As for Divinity... He has never claimed the magic of a god. The way the Six worked was when one god lost his divinity/power, the next took it. Abaddon's power was stripped from him, spread to other gods before Kormir took it. Dhuum's power was stripped from him, Grenth claimed it. Balthazar's power was stripped from him (we don't know if or who took it).

He claimed to be a capital G God several times. That is false. He is not in the pantheon. But him having some aspect of divinity, like Balthazar did when he was no longer a God, is evident. It is incorrect to say Vlast was an Elder Dragon. It is however accurate to say he had some of the power of one.

[Kalavier.1097]

@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

4: Aurene has only ever "used" his ability to revive himself from "death". She has shown no connection to the Awoken, no ability to raise undead (Or want to).And Kralkatorrik only used War to create portals. Again I'm not seeing the point. She also has the ability to raise the dead because Kralkatorrik did. Whether she wants to incorporate Awokeness into it has no bearing on this discussion.

There isn't actually evidence to say that Aurene can raise undead or make Awoken. We can speculate, but there isn't anything that 100% says she can.

As for his Mortality, we know he was functionally immortal, as the only thing that could kill him was a creature who consumed magic. When he was first defeated by Turai Ossa, they had to basically slam a massive boulder onto Joko's face to keep him trapped.

As for Divinity... He has never claimed the magic of a god. The way the Six worked was when one god lost his divinity/power, the next took it. Abaddon's power was stripped from him, spread to other gods before Kormir took it. Dhuum's power was stripped from him, Grenth claimed it. Balthazar's power was stripped from him (we don't know if or who took it).

He claimed to be a capital G God several times. That is false. He is not in the pantheon. But him having some aspect of divinity, like Balthazar did when he was no longer a God, is evident. It is incorrect to say Vlast was an Elder Dragon. It is however accurate to say he had some of the power of one.

Very powerful does not equal having any sort of Divinity. Balthazar isn't even human, by the way.

While Vlast held the potential to become an elder dragon, I'd say that is completely unrelated to divinity. This would be a more accurate comparison when talking about say, Grenth before he became a god, as his mother was Dwayna and thus he did have some divinity.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

1. He was born at a time when the gods intervened in Elona. The country with the Mouth of Torment and the Apocrypha.
2. He provided Balthazar a means of accessing the Domain of the Lost. And taught Scourge how to breach the Realm of Torment.
3. He can be channeled by Warden Amala in the same way she would channel Balthazar.
4. Aurene is able to use his magic. Just like she and Kralkatorrik were able to use War, the only other non-domain magic usage from dragons that eat magic from all domains.

He may not have been a full god. But he was definitely not a mortal spellcaster. At what point is his repeated claims of divinity still a lie?

1. Not really. He was born circa 800 AE. Same as Mad King Thorn. The Gods had left the world of Tyria roughly 800 years prior to Joko's life, and while they were still interactive, not very much. Joko was alive during a time of major events (Shiro, Odran, titans appearing before Burnt Warband), but this makes him no more special than probably 10 billion people.
2. Access via the Tomb of the Primeval Kings by all indication. That said, making portals to the Underworld and other afterlives isn't exactly a unique or above-mortal concept. While Lord Odran is famous for making permanent portals, temporary ones can occur quite often - Priestess Rhie in the human PS makes such portals, for example. It takes a bit of effort, but it's far from a divine deed.
3. I'm not quite sure "channeling someone for more power" is a divine attribute. Especially since it seems to borderline the same attribute as siphoning life/energy from someone (something any necromancer or mesmer can do in GW1). All Awakened have a connection to Joko, as part of his underlined "you must obey my commands" and with some being able to channel Joko's power to create new Awakened. Amala might have something a bit more. This certainly isn't normal, but to call it divine seems a bit of a leap.
4. This is more an illogical continuity issue than anything else at this point. To say it's evidence of divinity is more of putting the cart before the horse than proof. We'd need quite a bit more to imply he had special magic, especially since this is the same kind of magic used on Khilbron, The Hunter, Fendi Nin, and Zoldark (who used similar magic on all of his undead minions). While it isn't strictly common, lich magic is just binding the soul to the body, and nothing showcases such as divine.

@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:And? Dervish magic is intended to channel gods. It has nothing to do with an innate connection.So were monks per GW1 lore. Turns out they weren't. It was just magic that was believed to be channeling power from the gods.

Dervishes are the same as monks in this regard.

He claimed to be a capital G God several times. That is false. He is not in the pantheon. But him having some aspect of divinity, like Balthazar did when he was no longer a God, is evident. It is incorrect to say Vlast was an Elder Dragon. It is however accurate to say he had some of the power of one.

There's more gods out there than in the Six Gods. Zintl, the Great Dwarf, Mellaggan, Koda, etc.

That said, there's no evidence of him having some aspect of divinity. Joko was still just a normal lich. While we don't know what a never-been-a-god demigod (like pre-godhood Grenth) function like, post-been-a-god demigods like Balthazar are strictly beings made of magic and have no actual body. Joko very much did have a body, as Aurene can attest to.

I also wouldn't say Vlast "had the power of an Elder Dragon". He was tied to the domain, sure, but that's all. That's no different than saying "Branded Charr Mook #13583 has the power of an Elder Dragon", which attests to jack squat in the grand scale of things.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

@Kalavier.1097 said:

@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

4: Aurene has only ever "used" his ability to revive himself from "death". She has shown no connection to the Awoken, no ability to raise undead (Or want to).And Kralkatorrik only used War to create portals. Again I'm not seeing the point. She also has the ability to raise the dead because Kralkatorrik did. Whether she wants to incorporate Awokeness into it has no bearing on this discussion.

There isn't actually evidence to say that Aurene can raise undead or make Awoken. We can speculate, but there isn't anything that 100% says she can.

That is outside the scope of this discussion. But if she cannot 100% raise undead then she did not replace Kralkatorrik 100%

As for his Mortality, we know he was functionally immortal, as the only thing that could kill him was a creature who consumed magic. When he was first defeated by Turai Ossa, they had to basically slam a massive boulder onto Joko's face to keep him trapped.

As for Divinity... He has never claimed the magic of a god. The way the Six worked was when one god lost his divinity/power, the next took it. Abaddon's power was stripped from him, spread to other gods before Kormir took it. Dhuum's power was stripped from him, Grenth claimed it. Balthazar's power was stripped from him (we don't know if or who took it).

He claimed to be a capital G God several times. That is false. He is not in the pantheon. But him having some aspect of divinity, like Balthazar did when he was no longer a God, is evident. It is incorrect to say Vlast was an Elder Dragon. It is however accurate to say he had some of the power of one.

Very powerful does not equal having any sort of Divinity. Balthazar isn't even human, by the way.

While Vlast held the potential to become an elder dragon, I'd say that is completely unrelated to divinity. This would be a more accurate comparison when talking about say, Grenth before he became a god, as his mother was Dwayna and thus he did have some divinity.

In that instance Grenth claiming to be a God would be false until he replaced Dhuum. But claiming to be a god would not.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

1. He was born at a time when the gods intervened in Elona. The country with the Mouth of Torment and the Apocrypha.
2. He provided Balthazar a means of accessing the Domain of the Lost. And taught Scourge how to breach the Realm of Torment.
3. He can be channeled by Warden Amala in the same way she would channel Balthazar.
4. Aurene is able to use his magic. Just like she and Kralkatorrik were able to use War, the only other non-domain magic usage from dragons that eat magic from all domains.

He may not have been a full god. But he was definitely not a mortal spellcaster. At what point is his repeated claims of divinity still a lie?

1. Not really. He was born circa 800 AE. Same as Mad King Thorn. The Gods had left the world of Tyria roughly 800 years prior to Joko's life, and while they were still interactive, not very much. Joko was alive during a time of major events (Shiro, Odran, titans appearing before Burnt Warband), but this makes him no more special than probably 10 billion people.

He was alive before and during Nightfall. And the Gods didn't take their stuff. Who knows. Perhaps the Jokanur ruins became that way because Joko found the Apocrypha too early. Or some other situation involving artifacts of divine power.

2. Access via the Tomb of the Primeval Kings by all indication. That said, making portals to the Underworld and other afterlives isn't exactly a unique or above-mortal concept. While Lord Odran is famous for making permanent portals, temporary ones can occur quite often - Priestess Rhie in the human PS makes such portals, for example. It takes a bit of effort, but it's far from a divine deed.
3. I'm not quite sure "channeling someone for more power" is a divine attribute. Especially since it seems to borderline the same attribute as siphoning life/energy from someone (something any necromancer or mesmer can do in GW1). All Awakened have a connection to Joko, as part of his underlined "you must obey my commands" and with some being able to channel Joko's power to create new Awakened. Amala might have something a bit more. This certainly isn't normal, but to call it divine seems a bit of a leap.
   @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:And? Dervish magic is intended to channel gods. It has nothing to do with an innate connection.So were monks per GW1 lore. Turns out they weren't. It was just magic that was
   believed
   to be channeling power from the gods.

Dervishes are the same as monks in this regard.

I don't think because some faith magic doesn't require Gods that can be generalized to all faith magic. And I also don't think Dervish use faith magic, or Revenant stuff. The writers had the opportunity to clarify this and did not. Even after the criticism by this community they have not relented to call it just an echo or fake prayer etc.

You can assume the mysticism was a lie. But you have no confirmation and it can go either way. This is not automatically like the setting of

!Xenocide in which a faction of people wasted parts of their lives performing elaborate rituals to connect with gods who were never talking back in the first place.

I am not that pessimistic.

4. This is more an illogical continuity issue than anything else at this point. To say it's evidence of divinity is more of putting the cart before the horse than proof. We'd need quite a bit more to imply he had special magic, especially since this is the same kind of magic used on Khilbron, The Hunter, Fendi Nin, and Zoldark (who used similar magic on all of his undead minions). While it isn't strictly common, lich magic is just binding the soul to the body, and nothing showcases such as divine.

I don't see why? We have had several Elder Dragons not using stuff from outside domains and having to employ methods like resurrection to get those effects. Then we get two exceptions.

He claimed to be a capital G God several times. That is false. He is not in the pantheon. But him having some aspect of divinity, like Balthazar did when he was no longer a God, is evident. It is incorrect to say Vlast was an Elder Dragon. It is however accurate to say he had some of the power of one.

There's more gods out there than in the Six Gods. Zintl, the Great Dwarf, Mellaggan, Koda, etc.

That said, there's no evidence of him having some aspect of divinity. Joko was still just a normal lich. While we don't know what a never-been-a-god demigod (like pre-godhood Grenth) function like, post-been-a-god demigods like Balthazar are strictly

beings made of magic

and have no actual body. Joko very much did have a body, as Aurene can attest to.

What exactly is a normal Lich? Khilbron was indirectly given divine power.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

While Vlast held the potential to become an elder dragon, I'd say that is completely unrelated to divinity. This would be a more accurate comparison when talking about say, Grenth before he became a god, as his mother was Dwayna and thus he did have some divinity.

In that instance Grenth claiming to be a God would be false until he replaced Dhuum. But claiming to be a god would not.

In the concept of Tyria, There is no "God" versus "god". The capitalized version is used solely for a monotheistic being without a solid name - the closest Tyria has to this is Koda, but even the kodan faith doesn't proclaim Koda as the exclusive god.

Grenth wasn't a god in any sense until replacing Dhuum, as before that moment he was a demigod at best - he could have been merely mortal.

@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:He was alive before and during Nightfall. And the Gods didn't take their stuff. Who knows. Perhaps the Jokanur ruins became that way because Joko found the Apocrypha too early. Or some other situation involving artifacts of divine power.

Fahranur was sealed off since the Scarab Plague, long before Joko was living or made undead. He was a lich long before Nightfall and just being alive during Nightfall doesn't make one divine, nor is there any reason to suggest that they made anyone divine beyond Kormir.

Besides all this, implication is that the reason Joko became a lich was because of a wish granting djinn. Not divine power.

I don't think because some faith magic doesn't require Gods that can be generalized to all faith magic. And I also don't think Dervish use faith magic, or Revenant stuff. The writers had the opportunity to clarify this and did not. Even after the criticism by this community they have not relented to call it just an echo or fake prayer etc.

You can assume the mysticism was a lie. But you have no confirmation and it can go either way. This is not automatically like the setting of

!Xenocide in which a faction of people wasted parts of their lives performing elaborate rituals to connect with gods who were never talking back in the first place.

I am not that pessimistic.

We actually can since the entire point of the change is to define something as "faith magic" when it was thought to be "borrowed magic". The entire point was to explain why we had charr monks and destroyer dervishes in GW1, and continue to have guardians among charr, asura, etc. in GW2, when they clearly do not worship the Six Gods.

It isn't really that "people wasted parts of their lives", but that they "misunderstood where the power came from". The power was still empowered by their faith, they just assumed that it was the object of their devotion, and not that devotion itself, which empowered them.

Even in Nightfall, the Muse of Lyssa hints to this:

Lyssa's Muse: "There was a time when the gods walked the earth. Every thought and achievement was a gift of the gods."Lyssa's Muse: "But now you must realize that our gifts are within you."

I don't see why? We have had several Elder Dragons not using stuff from outside domains and having to employ methods like resurrection to get those effects. Then we get two exceptions.Beyond Aurene, no Elder Dragon has used resurrection, so I'm not really sure what you're tryint to say. So far, the only example of a non-cosmic (read: Elder Dragon or former god) being who's magic could be used, was Joko. This makes Joko an outlier and an inconsistency when the Elder Dragons - and even Aurene - ate non-cosmic magic and do not use that magic when it would be highly beneficial to them.

What exactly is a normal Lich? Khilbron was indirectly given divine power.Nothing indicates Khilbron was given divine power. And what is a normal lich? An undead who's soul is bound to their body via a powerful spell, thus preventing death without forcibly separating the soul from the body (e.g., via bloodstone or destroying the soul itself) or destroying the binding spell itself.

[Danikat.8537]

What's your definition for a god in Tyria?

Aside from the human pantheon there are dozens of religions in Tyria, each with their own criteria for divinity. Is Zintl (the sun) a god? The majority of hylek certainly think so. (Even the Maguuma tribes who worship Ameyalli instead still acknowledge Zintil, just not as their god.) What about the titans who used to be worshipped by the charr and were only abandoned because humans were able to summon them to Tyria and then kill them, which lead to the charr sharmans declaring them unworthy of worship. If you ask the grawl every other shiny rock, statue and remotely unuusal creature in Tyria is a god.

Joko was a god in the sense that many people in Elona believed he was and worshipped him as one. In some cases that was based on misinformation (all the stuff we know he made up, like claiming credit for defeating Abaddon and later Zhaitain and Mordremoth) but in other cases it was because of things he really could do, like being immortal and able to ressurect seemingly unlimited numbers of individuals as Awakened, or because they believed that he protected and helped them. That's not really any different to any of Tyria's other religions. How do you decide which of those are actually gods and which are not?

But if you mean was Joko part of the pantheon of the Six Gods or did he have the same kind of power as they do then the answer is no, he never was at any point in time.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

While Vlast held the potential to become an elder dragon, I'd say that is completely unrelated to divinity. This would be a more accurate comparison when talking about say, Grenth before he became a god, as his mother was Dwayna and thus he did have some divinity.

In that instance Grenth claiming to be a God would be false until he replaced Dhuum. But claiming to be a god would not.

In the concept of Tyria, There is no "God" versus "god". The capitalized version is used

solely

for a monotheistic being without a solid name - the closest Tyria has to this is Koda, but even the kodan faith doesn't proclaim Koda as the exclusive god.

Grenth wasn't a god in any sense until replacing Dhuum, as before that moment he was a demigod at best - he could have been merely mortal.

In Tyria there are also no High dragons but it is helpful to distinguish them. Illya, Lyss and Grenth are not gods but they are most likely not mortals either. Whether true breeding is a possibility for the latter is moot because this discussion is not about places in the pantheon. It is heavily implied that Tahlkora recieved a gift from Kormir. If she began claiming to be a god it would be inaccurate, but you would still point out she isn't entirely mortal.

@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:He was alive before and during Nightfall. And the Gods didn't take their stuff. Who knows. Perhaps the Jokanur ruins became that way because Joko found the Apocrypha too early. Or some other situation involving artifacts of divine power.

Fahranur was sealed off since the Scarab Plague, long before Joko was living or made undead. He was a lich long before Nightfall and just being alive during Nightfall doesn't make one divine, nor is there any reason to suggest that they made anyone divine beyond Kormir.

Besides all this, implication is that the reason Joko became a lich was because of a

wish granting djinn

. Not divine power.

Explain further?

I don't think because some faith magic doesn't require Gods that can be generalized to all faith magic. And I also don't think Dervish use faith magic, or Revenant stuff. The writers had the opportunity to clarify this and did not. Even after the criticism by this community they have not relented to call it just an echo or fake prayer etc.

You can assume the mysticism was a lie. But you have no confirmation and it can go either way. This is not automatically like the setting of

!Xenocide in which a faction of people wasted parts of their lives performing elaborate rituals to connect with gods who were never talking back in the first place.

I am not that pessimistic.

We actually can since the entire point of the change is to define something as "faith magic" when it was thought to be "borrowed magic". The entire point was to explain why we had charr monks and destroyer dervishes in GW1, and continue to have guardians among charr, asura, etc. in GW2, when they clearly do not worship the Six Gods.

It isn't really that "people wasted parts of their lives", but that they "misunderstood where the power came from". The power was still empowered by their faith, they just assumed that it was the object of their devotion, and not that devotion itself, which empowered them.

Even in Nightfall, the Muse of Lyssa hints to this:

Lyssa's Muse: "There was a time when the gods walked the earth. Every thought and achievement was a gift of the gods."Lyssa's Muse: "But now you must realize that our gifts are within you."

Becoming a wandering ascetic for no reason is a waste. And this presumes the Dervish are even using faith magic. Out of all the categorizations involving the schools and Mists, Preservation is only more convincing than Attrition.

I don't see why? We have had several Elder Dragons not using stuff from outside domains and having to employ methods like resurrection to get those effects. Then we get two exceptions.Beyond Aurene, no Elder Dragon has used resurrection, so I'm not really sure what you're tryint to say. So far, the

only

example of a non-cosmic (read: Elder Dragon or former god) being who's magic could be used, was Joko. This makes Joko an outlier and an inconsistency when the Elder Dragons - and even Aurene - ate non-cosmic magic and

do not

use that magic when it would be highly beneficial to them.

I was referring to the servitor usage of risen spellcasters. Resurrection was the wrong word since it is different from undeath in many settings.

What exactly is a normal Lich? Khilbron was indirectly given divine power.Nothing indicates Khilbron was given divine power. And what is a normal lich? An undead who's soul is bound to their body via a powerful spell, thus preventing death without forcibly separating the soul from the body (e.g., via bloodstone or destroying the soul itself) or destroying the binding spell itself.

From context I'm assuming you believe the Cataclysm that transformed him into a Lich was not Mists magic? In the DnD universe there is no substantive difference between divine and arcane magic but it is still correct to say Clerics are given divine power. I would argue whether or not the Lost Scrolls invoke magic from outside the All is irrelevant.

[ugrakarma.9416]

a "corrupted" divine magic explanation will be not so unfit to him, or a link to abbadon.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

@"Danikat.8537" said:What's your definition for a god in Tyria?

Aside from the human pantheon there are dozens of religions in Tyria, each with their own criteria for divinity. Is Zintl (the sun) a god? The majority of hylek certainly think so. (Even the Maguuma tribes who worship Ameyalli instead still acknowledge Zintil, just not as their god.) What about the titans who used to be worshipped by the charr and were only abandoned because humans were able to summon them to Tyria and then kill them, which lead to the charr sharmans declaring them unworthy of worship. If you ask the grawl every other shiny rock, statue and remotely unuusal creature in Tyria is a god.

Joko was a god in the sense that many people in Elona believed he was and worshipped him as one. In some cases that was based on misinformation (all the stuff we know he made up, like claiming credit for defeating Abaddon and later Zhaitain and Mordremoth) but in other cases it was because of things he really could do, like being immortal and able to ressurect seemingly unlimited numbers of individuals as Awakened, or because they believed that he protected and helped them. That's not really any different to any of Tyria's other religions. How do you decide which of those are actually gods and which are not?

But if you mean was Joko part of the pantheon of the Six Gods or did he have the same kind of power as they do then the answer is no, he never was at any point in time.

The human gods, like Elder Dragons, operate under an all or nothing principle that is ultimately not helpful language. In the same way that we end up distinguishing Glint from drakes, we end up separating Grenth, stripped Balthazar, and sometimes even Lyss and Ilya (individually) as not gods but more than mortal.

In the same way that lesser, "high", and elder dragons are all dragons, you should be able to say that demigods, gods, and whatever Joko is, have shared aspects. For the purpose of this discussion, Joko is being considered as having more to him than a mortal. And the source of that oomph either coming from, or being contained within, the powers of a god.

[Kalavier.1097]

@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:In Tyria there are also no High dragons but it is helpful to distinguish them. Illya, Lyss and Grenth are not gods but they are most likely not mortals either. Whether true breeding is a possibility for the latter is moot because this discussion is not about places in the pantheon. It is heavily implied that Tahlkora recieved a gift from Kormir. If she began claiming to be a god it would be inaccurate, but you would still point out she isn't entirely mortal.

Grenth was "half-god", but became a full god. Like how Kormir is no longer human, but a god. Tahlkora's "gift" is interesting, but it doesn't really mean much in context. She simply couldn't be controlled by Joko.

@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:Explain further?

In Nightfall, there is a quest you can do that involves a legendary wish-granting Djinn, who can grant any wish at all, but only one wish per century (IIRC). The implication/big theory is that Joko used a wish from that Djinn.

Becoming a wandering ascetic for no reason is a waste. And this presumes the Dervish are even using faith magic. Out of all the categorizations involving the schools and Mists, Preservation is only more convincing than Attrition.

That's a highly personal matter, to be honest. Like how in GW2, we can tell a devotee of Kormir in the Desolation that the gods have left, and the reply is "That's... Many of us feared this was the case. Even so...Kormir is still real, and so is our faith. We won't give up hope."

From context I'm assuming you believe the Cataclysm that transformed him into a Lich was not Mists magic? In the DnD universe there is no substantive difference between divine and arcane magic but it is still correct to say Clerics are given divine power. I would argue whether or not the Lost Scrolls invoke magic from outside the All is irrelevant.

The Catacylsm was magic from Abaddon yes, but I'd say there is a difference between "Being handed a divine/god spell" and "Being gifted divine magic." Like how the Commander uses holy fire in season 2 of the living story. We obtain what is, divine magic, but cannot use it after that gift is used up. The Vizier, after Orr sank, was just a normal Lich, although also being the most powerful lich we've seen besides Joko.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"Danikat.8537" said:What's your definition for a god in Tyria?

Aside from the human pantheon there are dozens of religions in Tyria, each with their own criteria for divinity. Is Zintl (the sun) a god? The majority of hylek certainly think so. (Even the Maguuma tribes who worship Ameyalli instead still acknowledge Zintil, just not as their god.) What about the titans who used to be worshipped by the charr and were only abandoned because humans were able to summon them to Tyria and then kill them, which lead to the charr sharmans declaring them unworthy of worship. If you ask the grawl every other shiny rock, statue and remotely unuusal creature in Tyria is a god.

Joko was a god in the sense that many people in Elona believed he was and worshipped him as one. In some cases that was based on misinformation (all the stuff we know he made up, like claiming credit for defeating Abaddon and later Zhaitain and Mordremoth) but in other cases it was because of things he really could do, like being immortal and able to ressurect seemingly unlimited numbers of individuals as Awakened, or because they believed that he protected and helped them. That's not really any different to any of Tyria's other religions. How do you decide which of those are actually gods and which are not?

But if you mean was Joko part of the pantheon of the Six Gods or did he have the same kind of power as they do then the answer is no, he never was at any point in time.

Joko was as much of a god as the mursaat or titans were. Which is to say not at all. His lich peers - Khilbron, Zoldark, Fendi Nin, and The Hunter - are never once suggested to be divine or godlike. Tyria has a number of false gods, and tend to be proven to be false because they're just run-of-the-mill guys. Nothing special among their peers. Joko was ultimately nothing special among his lich peers.

As it stands, we cannot accurately proclaim whether Koda, Zintl, Ameyalli, Mellaggan, or the Great Dwarf are "true gods" or not, but two of them, at least, do have an attribute that is shared with the Six Gods and the Spirits of the Wild (who are at least god-like): a tie into the Mists and the afterlife.

We do have a much more concrete set of attributes applied solely to the Six Gods, though, and if Joko had become god-like through the Six, then he would share at least some of these attributes just as Dhuum and Balthazar do in their no-longer-god states. These attributes include:

• Induce blindness naturally (god only)
• Can reshape their body (potentially god only)
• Not living or dead, but beings made of magic with a shell (god-like shared attribute)
• Tied to some cosmic power (god-like shared attribute)
• Can safely absorb magic (god-like shared attribute), including souls which forever become a part of them (god-like shared attribute)

@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:In Tyria there are also no High dragons but it is helpful to distinguish them. Illya, Lyss and Grenth are not gods but they are most likely not mortals either. Whether true breeding is a possibility for the latter is moot because this discussion is not about places in the pantheon. It is heavily implied that Tahlkora recieved a gift from Kormir. If she began claiming to be a god it would be inaccurate, but you would still point out she isn't entirely mortal.

Ilya, Lyss, and Grenth are 100% gods.

Receiving a gift from a god is not the same as being non-mortal or more-than-mortal. The Reapers received similar, but they still died, they were still full on mortals.

Fahranur was sealed off since the Scarab Plague, long before Joko was living or made undead. He was a lich long before Nightfall and just being alive during Nightfall doesn't make one divine, nor is there any reason to suggest that they made anyone divine beyond Kormir.

Besides all this, implication is that the reason Joko became a lich was because of a

wish granting djinn

. Not divine power.

Explain further?Explain what further, which part? If it's about the wish granting Djinn, just read the quest dialogue: In a sealed and buried coffer of Joko, a parchment that the Margonites were after (believed to be a Scripture of Abaddon) was found, after deciphering it was revieled to be unrelated to Abaddon but instead instructions on how to find a djinn that would grant a wish once every century, and that djinn hadn't granted one for well over a century when found - the guy who asked his wish was granted it immediately with no clear repercussions (gaining enough wealth to become of Prince status in Vabbi).

Becoming a wandering ascetic for no reason is a waste. And this presumes the Dervish are even using faith magic. Out of all the categorizations involving the schools and Mists, Preservation is only more convincing than Attrition.It wouldn't be "for no reason" though. And it's more "presuming" that prayer can supplement/replace spellcasting (which is confirmed true, per monks' spellcasting being in the form of prayers).

Nothing indicates Khilbron was given divine power. And what is a normal lich? An undead who's soul is bound to their body via a powerful spell, thus preventing death without forcibly separating the soul from the body (e.g., via bloodstone or destroying the soul itself) or destroying the binding spell itself.From context I'm assuming you believe the Cataclysm that transformed him into a Lich was not Mists magic? In the DnD universe there is no substantive difference between divine and arcane magic but it is still correct to say Clerics are given divine power. I would argue whether or not the Lost Scrolls invoke magic from outside the All is irrelevant.

Nothing confirmed Khilbron turned into a Lich during the Cataclysm or that the Cataclysm actually has the power to make undead. In fact, Fendi Nin was turned into a lich by King Zoran's Vizier well before the Cataclysm, indicating that either Khilbron or his predecessor knew how to turn one into a lich and no cataclysmic event was necessary.

How Dungeons and Dragons defines magic is ultimately irrelevant to Guild Wars, since the rules are already very clearly different (no daily limit on spellcasting, for example).

[Daniel Handler.4816]

@Kalavier.1097 said:

@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:In Tyria there are also no High dragons but it is helpful to distinguish them. Illya, Lyss and Grenth are not gods but they are most likely not mortals either. Whether true breeding is a possibility for the latter is moot because this discussion is not about places in the pantheon. It is heavily implied that Tahlkora recieved a gift from Kormir. If she began claiming to be a god it would be inaccurate, but you would still point out she isn't entirely mortal.

Grenth was "half-god", but became a full god. Like how Kormir is no longer human, but a god. Tahlkora's "gift" is interesting, but it doesn't really mean much in context. She simply couldn't be controlled by Joko.

@"Daniel Handler.4816" said:Explain further?

In Nightfall, there is a quest you can do that involves a legendary wish-granting Djinn, who can grant any wish at all, but only one wish per century (IIRC). The implication/big theory is that Joko used a wish from that Djinn.

Interesting. Are there any references in Gw2 to this? Also these aren't mutually exclusive concepts.

Becoming a wandering ascetic for no reason is a waste. And this presumes the Dervish are even using faith magic. Out of all the categorizations involving the schools and Mists, Preservation is only more convincing than Attrition.

That's a highly personal matter, to be honest. Like how in GW2, we can tell a devotee of Kormir in the Desolation that the gods have left, and the reply is "That's... Many of us feared this was the case. Even so...Kormir is still real, and so is our faith. We won't give up hope."

IIRC we were informed the gods are now somewhere in the Mists trying to find a world without Elder Dragons. The hope that Kormir will return is not misplaced. But again this is moot. Monks fooled themselves into using preservation magic. Dervish had/have an actual connection in the same way as Ritualists or Revenants. Whether living Dervish have started channeling echoes is up for debate but invoking a god in a fractal somewhere is still meaningful. Doubly so if they are able to confer like Revenants.

In retrospect it is possible that Joko, as a very powerful scourge, has sufficient fire abilities that he or his echoes can be used in lieu of Balthazar. In which case he isn't necessarily divine because Dervish are invoking him, just very strong.

From context I'm assuming you believe the Cataclysm that transformed him into a Lich was not Mists magic? In the DnD universe there is no substantive difference between divine and arcane magic but it is still correct to say Clerics are given divine power. I would argue whether or not the Lost Scrolls invoke magic from outside the All is irrelevant.

The Catacylsm was magic from Abaddon yes, but I'd say there is a difference between "Being handed a divine/god spell" and "Being gifted divine magic." Like how the Commander uses holy fire in season 2 of the living story. We obtain what is, divine magic, but cannot use it after that gift is used up. The Vizier, after Orr sank, was just a normal Lich, although also being the most powerful lich we've seen besides Joko.

Well the title is directly/indirectly given divine power. But I see what you mean. Regular folk can have divine abilities (albeit often temporarily) without being divine. And more than mortal doesn't necessarily mean demigod.

But given the legend you brought up, what if he wished to be a god? If that were his wish he clearly gained immortality and enough power to make people worship him. Is it outside the abilities of such a legendary creature to bestows divine power?

[Kalavier.1097]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Nothing confirmed Khilbron turned into a Lich during the Cataclysm or that the Cataclysm actually has the power to make undead. In fact, Fendi Nin was turned into a lich by King Zoran's Vizier well before the Cataclysm, indicating that either Khilbron or his predecessor knew how to turn one into a lich and no cataclysmic event was necessary.

TBH, It could be possible Khilbron was, secretly, a Lich before he even cast the spell. We don't really know much about the specifics of becoming a lich in Guild wars, beyond they are basically immortal, upper end necromancers.

And the undead armies of Orr were described to be caused by the sudden, incredibly traumatic death making them unable to notice they had died IIRC, or they were raised by Khilbron's necromancer after the fact. It's a neat detail, in GW1 the undead Orrians were almost all military, where in GW2 they are almost all civilian :P.

[Nemo.8759]

There are too many things that Anet needs to explain.Why is his magic so special?Why only he can create awaken?How did he become a lich?

From the performance of POF and LS4, Joko's personal strength is not very strong, he just can not be killed by normal magic or weapon and he can continue to create awaken.

[De Bourgogne.9642]

Still waiting for Joko crawl out of Aurene's belly and then making her awaken minion. All part of the plan, wait for Aurene to absorb magic of other dragons and then make her his own minion.

[Kalavier.1097]

@"Nemo.8759" said:There are too many things that Anet needs to explain.Why is his magic so special?Why only he can create awaken?How did he become a lich?

From the performance of POF and LS4, Joko's personal strength is not very strong, he just can not be killed by normal magic or weapon and he can continue to create awaken.

A: His magic, by itself, isn't special. It's a variant of necromancy, and when he tried teaching it to a collection of acolytes, they ended up rebelling against him, making him treat them as criminals and only teaching it to awoken after that. Unless you are talking about his ability to self-revive. That's unique because very few creatures exhibit it, only high end Liches.B: Because he created the variant of necromancy related to this. It's not that far removed from typical undead, the big difference is the person's soul is kept within the body, as opposed to the soul going to the mists and the body being undead. Infact, outside of the Forsaken IIRC it's kinda rare for that to occur. We know of Rurik, and Liches, as well as Risen (but those are dragon minions, not considered typical undead). So it's possible for liches to bind souls to their undead bodies, it's just not that often. Infact, we see his minions able to create new Awoken, so it's possible that new awoken may still be able to occur. The difference is Joko could endlessly bring back awoken who died, and it's implied nobody else had this particular ability.C: Becoming a lich is a general vagueness of Guild Wars as a universe. This is a question that would be better answered in a general sense of the group, then Joko in particular. The fact his past is pretty unknown is a plus. We don't need to know all the details of his life, nor is it entirely relevant to the story at the moment.

It should be noted that Joko has only ever been bested by two individuals, the Commander, and Turai Ossa. No other individual or group has gotten close to even defeating, much less reaching Joko. His personal strength/ability is very high, but like a smart leader, he's not often on the front lines directly in combat. He's smart, and knows he can drown the enemy in Awoken, then just revive the waves over and over until his goals are achieved.

The only people who actually "killed" Joko and forced him to self-res, was two highly skilled/powerful individuals. And even they weren't able to finish the job. Turai was able to trap Joko before he got back up, while Joko had learned from that defeat and had a trap in place for when the Commander managed to defeat him, to allow him time to get back up.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Kalavier.1097 said:

@"Nemo.8759" said:There are too many things that Anet needs to explain.Why is his magic so special?Why only he can create awaken?How did he become a lich?

From the performance of POF and LS4, Joko's personal strength is not very strong, he just can not be killed by normal magic or weapon and he can continue to create awaken.

A: His magic, by itself, isn't special. It's a variant of necromancy, and when he tried teaching it to a collection of acolytes, they ended up rebelling against him, making him treat them as criminals and only teaching it to awoken after that. Unless you are talking about his ability to self-revive. That's unique because very few creatures exhibit it, only high end Liches.I think the reason for asking "why is his magic so special" is why it gave Aurene new abilities, when eating normal magic doesn't do that for Elder Dragons (or their champions/scions as we've seen so far).

It should be noted that Joko has only ever been bested by two individuals, the Commander, and Turai Ossa. No other individual or group has gotten close to even defeating, much less reaching Joko. His personal strength/ability is very high, but like a smart leader, he's not often on the front lines directly in combat. He's smart, and knows he can drown the enemy in Awoken, then just revive the waves over and over until his goals are achieved.

I would disagree that his personal strength is high. Like you say, he's "not often on the front lines directly in combat". The only reason why two people have managed to beat Joko (I would argue that the second is Aurene, not the Commander, who was trapped by Joko mid-combat - Joko wasn't imprisoned immediately while immobilized, because Turai and the Order of Whispers attempted to kill him many times) is only because Joko fought only a few people directly.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Kalavier.1097 said:

@"Nemo.8759" said:There are too many things that Anet needs to explain.Why is his magic so special?Why only he can create awaken?How did he become a lich?

From the performance of POF and LS4, Joko's personal strength is not very strong, he just can not be killed by normal magic or weapon and he can continue to create awaken.

A: His magic, by itself, isn't special. It's a variant of necromancy, and when he tried teaching it to a collection of acolytes, they ended up rebelling against him, making him treat them as criminals and only teaching it to awoken after that. Unless you are talking about his ability to self-revive. That's unique because very few creatures exhibit it, only high end Liches.I think the reason for asking "why is his magic so special" is why it gave Aurene new abilities, when eating normal magic doesn't do that for Elder Dragons (or their champions/scions as we've seen so far).

Well, how many mortals did the elder dragons consume? They seem perfectly content to snack on artifacts (in Zhaitan's case) or ley-lines directly. The only actual being we've seen any of them consume rather than have a minion kill has been Balthazar or other dragons, and we did see them gain new powers from that. Mordremoth was closest, but he didn't actually kill those he captured, instead using them as templates for copying.

The only mortal who's magic we have actually seen consumed by a dragon was Joko. All the rest is indirect.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said:Well, how many mortals did the elder dragons consume?

Literally fucking millions.

Every single dragon minion = a mortal who's magic the Elder Dragons consumed. The process of making a dragon minion is explained in the PS to be first stealing the victim's magic, then the ED forcing their own magic in. Gorr's weaponry developed for the Pact uses the same techniques, stealing magic from dragon minions and "poisoning" it before sending it back - thus why the Pact's cannons are so effective against dragon minions (and Zhaitan).

This was also how Jormag rose, explicitly - Drakkar siphoned magic off of the Sons of Svanir to feed Jormag. If any mortal's magic becomes available to the Elder Dragons, then Drakkar and Jormag should have gotten plenty of norn magic before even awakening, even if they decide to retcon the above corruption spreading process.

[Kalavier.1097]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:I think the reason for asking "why is his magic so special" is why it gave Aurene new abilities, when eating normal magic doesn't do that for Elder Dragons (or their champions/scions as we've seen so far).

Ah, in that regard, probably because other dragons had eaten liches before. The Liches under Zhaitan were made by him, not others.

I would disagree that his personal strength is high. Like you say, he's "not often on the front lines directly in combat". The only reason why two people have managed to beat Joko (I would argue that the second is Aurene, not the Commander, who was trapped by Joko mid-combat - Joko wasn't imprisoned immediately while immobilized, because Turai and the Order of Whispers attempted to kill him many times) is only because Joko fought only a few people directly.

Agree somewhat. I wouldn't say he's pretty strong, but he picks his fight very well. And rarely has appeared completely alone. Turai Ossa, and the Commander faced him alone. I'd probably say he is individually weaker then perhaps Khilbron from GW1, but fields his army and tactics much better.

Though, I think you said it earlier. Joko is impressive when compared to normal necromancers. Compare to his Peers (Liches) and he's... not that special.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Kalavier.1097 said:Ah, in that regard, probably because other dragons had eaten liches before. The Liches under Zhaitan were made by him, not others.

Thing is, if "eating a mortal with special magic" was enough to give the Elder Dragon said special magic, why didn't Jormag just eat the Wolf Havroun? Why keep him a living prisoner instead? Or how about when Jomrag corrupted the Voice of Koda in Honor of the Waves, why didn't Jormag gain the abilities of a Voice? And Jormag was awoken by Drakkar siphoning a bunch of magic from various norn - by all right, shouldn't Jormag have enough "norn magic" to make all icebrood capable of animal transformations? Especially since he ate Owl as well.

Why was Joko's magic so special as to be on par to Elder Dragons and gods? Why is it so special to be greater than that of a Spirit of the Wild?

The only answer that makes sense, imo, would be that it's not Joko's magic which was special, but Aurene's own lack of magic that allowed her to tap into magic not on such a grand scale. But at the same time, now that she's an Elder Dragon, she shouldn't have access to that magic (which would be a nice way to make her mortal again, and the threat of her death real once more).

@Kalavier.1097 said:Though, I think you said it earlier. Joko is impressive when compared to normal necromancers. Compare to his Peers (Liches) and he's... not that special.

I think compared to other exemplary necromancers like Verata, Livia, Jurah, Olias, and he'd not be so special either. The main thing Joko has going over them is having had more time to experiment with and refine his necromancy.

[Kalavier.1097]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:The only answer that makes sense, imo, would be that it's not Joko's magic which was special, but Aurene's own lack of magic that allowed her to tap into magic not on such a grand scale. But at the same time, now that she's an Elder Dragon, she shouldn't have access to that magic (which would be a nice way to make her mortal again, and the threat of her death real once more).

The other aspect, perhaps is that his immortality was caused by the wish-granting Djinn, and thus is actually special/unique magic compared to the rest of the liches. So when Aurene consumed him, that particular magic effect/whatever went to her instead?

Of course, I can easily accept that at the time, Joko's magic was much more of a chunk compared to the rest of her absorbed magic, as opposed to Kralk or other elder dragons where the same amount would be a lot less.

@Kalavier.1097 said:Though, I think you said it earlier. Joko is impressive when compared to normal necromancers. Compare to his Peers (Liches) and he's... not that special.

I think compared to other exemplary necromancers like Verata, Livia, Jurah, Olias, and he'd not be so special either. The main thing Joko has going over them is having had more time to experiment with and refine his necromancy.

Experience/skill does have a big effect on stuff, yes.