New Generation Roamers lack the Bravery of the Old Guards
EremiteAngel.9765
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For the past few weeks, I have logged into WvW to see Tier 3 enemy supply camps in EBG and Borderlands.
This would have been a rare sight in the past when roamers would have gone deep into enemy lands to take their camps.
It wasn't easy to tier up a supply camp.
Now? Tier 3 Supply Camps are everywhere.
We got them, enemies got them, everyone got them.
And the reason is because our new generation roamers lack the bravery to roam in enemy lands.
Whether solo, duo or party, they mostly roam in home owned territories only.
Enter the enemy lands? Rare.
I even once offered and paid a roamer 2 gold to flip an enemy T3 camp that was supplying SMC with speed yaks that we were trying to take.
This is just sad.
Just earlier I watched an old guard roaming guild QQ bravely roaming in enemy territories and fighting outnumbered.
This is what it means to roam bravely and freely.
New Generation roamers need to learn this from the old guards.
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Comments
Well, if, as you say, your enemies have T3 camps and you are sad to see that, why not heed Gandhi?
fm005.jpg
Weird flex, but ok.
i don't mind roaming, but i get bored playing gw2 alone.
i often change to an rpg game. i even play pvp now when my guildmates aren't on.
Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.
Roamers? You mean gankers?
I agree most players are not willing to commit to even or outnumbered fights these days, but I do still see players running around at the north end of enemy bls. I would agree that those players are less successful than they used to be, but I'm not sure I can put my finger on a reason for that . . .
It's probably because of the watchtower upgrade on towers and the "marked" of sentries. Which I both love.
Camp flippers can only go so many routes unnoticed and the defenders only have to watch the routes the sentries/watchtowers don't cover.
That or playing very forwarding carry builds.
Game working as intended, game was mostly designed for cowards and bad player that need easy gimmicks to get carried.
Broken vs broken = balanced game in Anet lamer eyes.
I doubt they will have ever a game more towards player skill rather than pick one of the most broken builds and see how much u can get carried against non meta gimmicks.
To add to that, the camp flippers were never brave. They needed to flip a camp fast enough before anyone had time to react and fight them over it. Then they'd disappear in stealth to go to the next camp.
edit: Let's also not forget the Target Painter Trap. All great additions to the game.
Well i go around looking for fights but when a iget outnumbered not using a broken class that can get in and out at will like thief mesmer rangers warrior and holo my skill means nothing against these classes with better tools.
I still do it and am happy when i win against other bad players since the same lvl of skill ones will win most times due to the class they have.
It's a nice attempt at framing, but bravery is not a factor when a player has nothing to lose by putting themselves in a risky situation...otherwise the player behind Leeroy Jenkins is woefully overdue to receive an MMORPGMOH (Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game Medal of Honor)
Things auto upgrade now, that’s why you see them. You don’t even have to pay for upgrades. Nothing has changed except for the population which could also be contributing.
The problem on EBG at least is the very high (IMO) coverage of watchtowers that turn what could be a reasonable attempt on a camp into basically a suicide mission. I know the routes into, say Rogue's Quarry, without detection, but you need to weave in between towers and swim right in front of the keep and hope and pray that nobody sees you. It is possible during off hours or shoulder hours, but during prime time you're not likely to pull it off without being seen. And then you have mounts, which means that if you don't nuke the camp instantly and have ring up before swords pop you're going to get a response from multiple foes. Without mounts, it might not have been possible for the opposing force to get to you to save the camp. WIth mounts and friendly territory speed boost it is trivial.
And screw that random dolyak that always spawns when you have the camp 90% capped and you see the opposing warclaw racing towards you.
Roamers run in groups of 5+ now. Amazingly efficient.
Ahhh..that is the rare-spawn Trollyak. Wish it dropped extra loot to compensate for the trouble it always causes.
Or the second one spawning like right after you killed the first and you see 6 Guys running towards you
All the bravery in the world
And you getting killed by 6 dismount skills
(That last one is the real reason people quit)
Don't you love this logic? If I win, it's because I'm better! But if I lose, it's because you play easier/better class. At this point I'd advice playing "the better class" and stop making excuses when you happen to lose.
bonus tip! You're not limited to playing a single class and you can swap them depending on what you want to do
As stated above, everything auto upgrades now, in the past to get T3 took work, as the population was MUCH higher for roamers, which are very rare these days. Not only did upgrades require someone to be there to upgrade it, but it consumed all of the supply AND cost gold. And at the start of the game, there was also no T3 camps, they maxed at T2 with additional guards and level 82 NPCs. And no speed buffs to yaks, so it took longer, also, say it's a well trafficed camp, back then, it could be impossible to upgrade because people would keep taking supply, resulting in not enough supply being in the depot to start the upgrade.
People forget how easy, I mean super easy it is to upgrade anything today vs back then. It's all passive now and depends on yaks, it's also part of why it's AC heaven today, as you had to make a choice back then, upgrade keep, or build siege, do you paper WP the keep, or add structure reinforcements? People would often run supply from garri or the like to the other keeps to build siege, however with all of the passives and watch tower etc, scouts almost don't exist anymore, no less people willing to run back and forth to garri/camp 300 times to build siege, all the while yelling at the rando running through picking up supply delaying your upgrade by yet another yak.
Also, being that you are on the map looking at T3 camps, why are you not taking them? Is this another case of "this is a problem!!.....For someone else to fix"?
"When you power creep the game and make it so that spam gameplay is nearly as effective as deep knowledge and nuance, the quality of players will decrease." -Exedore
I play Kodash [EU], and for last 3 days i got killed by asura condi trapper abount ~20 times, wherever i go i meet this small ****r, i even cant get out from our keep. Shall i know when finally these condi builds get a nerf ??? Because almost all roamers i meet are thiefs or condi mesmers/ condi rangers....
I might loose ofc. But unlike a mesmer that has the tools to fend off a guardian and necro players at same time that have the same skill level because of the class mechanichs and invulns damage denials WHILE dealling damage works better and can be more bursty from a safe distance the other way around will not happen. A guardian cannot disengage at will and successfully run away to get cds back nor a necro.
And that is not up to discussion .
Fixed your mistake.
Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.
Then why arent you playing those classes? Im sure you're playing necro/guard because they're so bad
Tbh it seems you're just making excuses whenever you fail.
Ah, yes. Typo, my bad.
I play them because they are more fun and were the first 2 i played at launch.
Not making excuses but any necro that wins against a thief means the thief was bad.
This.
Also i miss the beef in chat between ppl trying to upgrade stuff and ppl taking supplies to build siege. Good times.
Also, watchtower everywhere, groups of ppl running around, and warclaw being so fast to defend.
I mostly roam solo and often times you just cant flip a camp Alone without 2+ppl shwoing up, and even if you fight outnumbered and kill one, he will just respawn and with the warclaws help be back before you stomped the other guy, getting you stuck in an endless loop of killing them, running out of cooldowns, or until more ppl show up to kill you, even better, chase you across half the map, because they get ooc mount up, while others with more mobility keep you in fight.
I Hate IT when i wanna take a camp with 50 roamers and i cant even cap a guard
I roam exclusively solo in enemy EBG. I have not been taking camps as frequently b/c of Warclaw. Reinforcements can arrive too quickly and you cannot escape if greatly outnumbered. The only way to avoid the Warclaw pile on is to roam blue/red sides near spawn where you can use cliffs to escape.
Most of them are tail ganking zergs, on glass builds with full escape kits. Its rare when I see someone on a balanced build actually taking "fair" fights, or taking camps / banding together to take a tower, etc.
The only "brave" roamers these days have easy mode meta builds and run around shoulder to shoulder with their guild buddies.
The game isnt what it was
Gotta join the condi zerg
Duo roamers?! SOLO?! LMAO
"Roamers" are out in gangs of 10 these days!
All 10 will jump on a single player!
i'm sorry but... "new generation" ??? who are you talking about? there is no new generation of roamers, roaming is dead since warclaws, and it was dying long before, you might see 10 man squads form just to cap camps but only servers with high pop like blackgate can do those things.
Its not about new generation roamer or old generation roamer. You just can't solo roam anymore. They roam in group of 3 to 5, chase you with mount (Impossible to escape unless you are one of those rifle 4 DE). Mounts killed roaming. Before mounts, you could kite, run from 5 man chasing and have some fun while running for your life. Now, you just accept your fate once you see 5 man jumping on you.
Meta has changed, you get oneshoted even you play with 3000 armor+, roaming is not fun and rewarding anymore.
As others have already alluded to, I don't think it is an issue with bravery among the players and rather that the environment has changed.
People have mentioned the upgrades system, the shrinking overall playerbase relative coverage to that and the particular changes in roamer amounts or shifts in player demography towards anonymous players following pickup groups to a higher degree than before.
Another aspect that hasn't been mentioned (or at least when I read the thread this afternoon) is the introduction of the Warclaw. Alot of the attention in the Warclaw debate has been put on unwilling combatants and ganking vs. squad reconnection. An aspect that has been given far less attention even though it is arguably more important for the health of the mode as a mode is that it shifted the balance between attackers and defenders. That is sometimes mentioned with regards to reconnecting to a defensive fight (say, from spawn for a keep) but if you are looking at everyday gameplay and general statistics it har arguably affected roamers and havocers more.
That is another reason for the topic of this thread and it's contribution should not be underestimated. Running slower on hostile soil and being easier caught by superior numbers (even more so on hostile soil) will discourage alot of the activities that roamers and havocers did behind enemy lines by fighting around spawn camps and back-towers or attempting to capture them sneakily. That balance shifted more towards a defenders' advantage and while you can still certainly do it (and reap area benefits by claiming areas behind enemy lines to roam on) there is more of an entry barrier and bits of discouragement to attempting it now. That affects statistics even if it doesn't affect possibilities.
How to solve population balance
Q&A
Well........not entirely true. I am primarily a solo roamer and not a DE aaaaaaaaaaand can usually (not 100% but maybe 80%) peace out before the roaming parties jump on me.
The rest of your statements I can get behind however
Red = Dead...or someone runs away. Either way it's gone.
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What did you expect with mounts in WvW?
I feel like this thread is trying to glorify the past more than it deserves. There were always better and worse roamers, they often tried to cap camps before they needed to fight or just pick out the newbs that were staggering behind their groups. The biggest difference nowadays is the introduction of warclaw, but just because you happen to meet groups rolling over camps, doesn't mean that solo/duo roaming is dead. Because it's not, it just seems you guys don't spend time doing it, so you have a weak sample. And btw, they have mounts but you do too, so if you still get steamrolled by groups when you didn't want to pick that fight, it's really at least partially on you. Raoming =/= dueling, not sure what you expected lmao.
On the other hand any guard that loses to thief means the guard is bad. What a great way to "discuss" o/
Hmm... ok.
I do, but its usually the Gandhi from Civ.
Times are changing. I feel like a lot of people complain about the good old days. Like we are a bunch of old guys sitting at a restaurant sharing remember when stories. While the youth is looking at us laughing secretly saying in their head, "Get with the times nothing stays the same". I've found that no matter how much I want things to be like the days of Old it just is never going to happen. Things get harder and easier we just have to adapt. Especially with the ebb and flow of the WvW player base which I believe is the main reason for these camps. We just don't have coverage like we used to...
Dedicated havoc guilds started dying off since HoT came in. These days you cap camps to pull a fight but people would rather gank with bigger numbers anyways, there's no real reason to waste time trying to cut supply from something upgrading, waypoints became less important with ewp gliders and mounts for faster travel.
^ Another derailing post - Anet
Perma stealth is needed to outrun zergs - Thieves
A skill overpowered? just nerf their dodge, balanced. - Anet
There's no power creep you just don't recognize more people hitting you - Flat Earther
it is similar, my experience. and my guys are indeed not young anymore.
Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.
I must add that most Tier 3 camps are nowdays littered with ballis and golems.
Someone sees you, then they come running and hop into golem and call for backup.
Unless you have a couple with you, its no point staying there.
what roamers? the spawn camping gankers? The 3+x v 1 crowd hanging around their own smc?
What? Ppl are still playing WvW?
Must be waiting for Alliance... wait longer then but not for the change, only another update annoucement, and then... wait for 1 year more... for even more update announcements and then... I T E.
Nike Rangers Unite!!!
I almost exclusively solo roam on a Greatsword, sword/warhorn soulbeast with a bird pet. I can't tell you how much fun I have had flipping camps and getting groups to chase me all over the map. I have more fun lately than I have had in a while.
I'm not positive but I think Papasmurf plays a mesmer, which is not condi cancer, but everyone knows that mesmers have some serious cooties. Lol.
Thunderfro The Grey ~ Darkhaven by way of BP~ [HART]
Maybe but then there wouldn't be a borderlands left.
I don't think anybody was ever brave. They either played builds they knew they could run away on, played builds that could win every 1v1 or just learned to not care if they died.
Anet buff me :-(
Make me good at game!
Tiered camps being guarded by 2 and 3 people at 2am on a Monday morning in T4 by the second place team and they still refuse to leave the camp for a "fight" with 1 roamer unless they have another 2-3 more for said "fight" Yes, clearly there's a lack of bravery on the roamers part these days...
I was the third
I really contributed negatively to our warscore sometimes
BUT BY GOD I WAS NOT GIVING YOU THAT CAMP FOR FREE
That SWC is for MY BAY....STAY OUT (all 4-6 of you thieves, brave ranger at 1500 range and illusions and clones coming from somewhere)
Don't Worry, My Dutch is OK
This so much, in the last year of solo roaming ive never seen so many players camping on camps(the last month has been terrible) and refusing to fight unless they either outnumber you or have backup incoming already.
Amana Silentchild; My Main
Ember Wandertooth; The Kingslayer, Kianda Redpaw; The Blazing Light
Why GW is Called Guildwars
Nuuuu. I was discovered....as was my non condi / non meta cooties
Red = Dead...or someone runs away. Either way it's gone.
twitch.tv/TRMC
Lover of Jumping puzzles, Squirrels, WvW, and Taimi
Co-Leader of SOmething inAPpropriate {SOAP}