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Players Asking for dps check without knowking the boss mechanics in fractal


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@Obtena.7952 said:

and this is why dps meters get a bad name, certain users think big numbers and fast kills/spamming rotations/wearing zerg gear is more important than interesting gameplay. They also forget people have been happily clearing fractals without thgis kind of attitude. Something has gradually changed, and its not those people happily clearing years ago.

That 'something' is the knowledge of the game accessible to us. It's natural that you can accept a small kid to get his diaper messy, but once you know how to sit on a toilet you're expected to do it.It's basically the same thing, when you know how you can deal dps you're expected to deal dps. it's simple as that. If you don't want to deal dps, don't join teams that are optimized, make your own 'chill run no elitism' and keep failing on skovald

That's STILL a player-determined requirement. The fact is that the game is designed so that you DON'T need that knowledge to the extent that a DPS meter is necessary to filter people out. The question here has NEVER been about if you CAN, you SHOULD. It's about recognizing the game doesn't not require it for success.

Either way, I think it's amusing at this point because the more people insist on these high levels of performance from the playerbase, the more they exclude people they can play with ... players aren't stupid and if you don't want them in your team because they don't do what you think they should (even when it's not necessary), that only hurts you, not them.

It doesnt hurt the side that want certain level of skill at all. Looks to me like you are not that type of player so you dont understand the mentality behind that.

Yes it does, because you artificially restrict who you play with based on a player-imposed set of rules.

Only if you can't find decent players.

And well decent players usually can find a team.

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@Taygus.4571 said:

and this is why dps meters get a bad name, certain users think big numbers and fast kills/spamming rotations/wearing zerg gear is more important than interesting gameplay. They also forget people have been happily clearing fractals without thgis kind of attitude. Something has gradually changed, and its not those people happily clearing years ago.

That 'something' is the knowledge of the game accessible to us. It's natural that you can accept a small kid to get his diaper messy, but once you know how to sit on a toilet you're expected to do it.It's basically the same thing, when you know how you can deal dps you're expected to deal dps. it's simple as that. If you don't want to deal dps, don't join teams that are optimized, make your own 'chill run no elitism' and keep failing on skovald

That's STILL a player-determined requirement. The fact is that the game is designed so that you DON'T need that knowledge to the extent that a DPS meter is necessary to filter people out. The question here has NEVER been about if you CAN, you SHOULD. It's about recognizing the game doesn't not require it for success.

Either way, I think it's amusing at this point because the more people insist on these high levels of performance from the playerbase, the more they exclude people they can play with ... players aren't stupid and if you don't want them in your team because they don't do what you think they should (even when it's not necessary), that only hurts you, not them.

It doesnt hurt the side that want certain level of skill at all. Looks to me like you are not that type of player so you dont understand the mentality behind that.

Yes it does, because you artificially restrict who you play with based on a player-imposed set of rules.

Only if you can't find decent players.

And well decent players usually can find a team.

No, that still hurts those players, even if they can find decent players because that pool of players they can pull from is artificially diminished. I mean, no one should be trying to make a sensible statement that reducing people they can play with (artificially or not) is good ... but here you are?

That's the whole point. It gets harder to find decent players because artificially limiting your 'allowed' playerbase with these restrictions in a game that is designed around a low threshold of success automatically makes it harder. It doesn't get better either. As it gets easier to gear and do damage without the knowledge of how to do it, the shift is to knowing less, not more, about achieving highest DPS capability.

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@Obtena.7952 said:That's the whole point. It gets harder to find decent players because artificially limiting your 'allowed' playerbase with these restrictions in a game that is designed around a low threshold of success automatically makes it harder. It doesn't get better either. As it gets easier to gear and do damage without the knowledge of how to do it, the shift is to knowing less, not more, about achieving highest DPS capability.

Do you prefer the old no necro or ranger groups or 10k ap+ only ones? You want to restrict heavy optimized groups artificially aswell with taking bad no dps players. Play how you want includes high end speedruns aswell.The thing is that raids and fractals would probably be dead without a dps meter. Dps racing or trying to improve the personal best is most of the time the only reason why veterans are still doing such content. Fractals with a healer are so braindead easy for experienced players that only an artificial challenge without a healer and phase checks make them challenging. I know that a lot of players hate enrage timers but i really enjoy them personally since they add at least some tension for me.

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@Nephalem.8921 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:That's the whole point. It gets harder to find decent players because artificially limiting your 'allowed' playerbase with these restrictions in a game that is designed around a low threshold of success automatically makes it harder. It doesn't get better either. As it gets easier to gear and do damage without the knowledge of how to do it, the shift is to knowing less, not more, about achieving highest DPS capability.

Do you prefer the old no necro or ranger groups or 10k ap+ only ones? You want to restrict heavy optimized groups artificially aswell with taking bad no dps players. Play how you want includes high end speedruns aswell.The thing is that raids and fractals would probably be dead without a dps meter. Dps racing or trying to improve the personal best is most of the time the only reason why veterans are still doing such content. Fractals with a healer are so braindead easy for experienced players that only an artificial challenge without a healer and phase checks make them challenging. I know that a lot of players hate enrage timers but i really enjoy them personally since they add at least some tension for me.

I don't live in your world ... I'm not asking heavy optimized groups to take players that do as they please, I don't have a problem with restriction of any kind. You can substitute DPs meters for AP counts or gear checks or whatever you want ... it doesn't change what I said; artificially restricting who you play with is not a long term sustainable practice. If people embrace the design of the game, these things are irrelevant and the world opens up to you. I've learned that and the people I play with learned it too. We never have a problem.

No DPS meters would have killed fractals? I don't get that ... stopwatches don't exist where you are?

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@Obtena.7952 said:

and this is why dps meters get a bad name, certain users think big numbers and fast kills/spamming rotations/wearing zerg gear is more important than interesting gameplay. They also forget people have been happily clearing fractals without thgis kind of attitude. Something has gradually changed, and its not those people happily clearing years ago.

That 'something' is the knowledge of the game accessible to us. It's natural that you can accept a small kid to get his diaper messy, but once you know how to sit on a toilet you're expected to do it.It's basically the same thing, when you know how you can deal dps you're expected to deal dps. it's simple as that. If you don't want to deal dps, don't join teams that are optimized, make your own 'chill run no elitism' and keep failing on skovald

That's STILL a player-determined requirement. The fact is that the game is designed so that you DON'T need that knowledge to the extent that a DPS meter is necessary to filter people out. The question here has NEVER been about if you CAN, you SHOULD. It's about recognizing the game doesn't not require it for success.

Either way, I think it's amusing at this point because the more people insist on these high levels of performance from the playerbase, the more they exclude people they can play with ... players aren't stupid and if you don't want them in your team because they don't do what you think they should (even when it's not necessary), that only hurts you, not them.

It doesnt hurt the side that want certain level of skill at all. Looks to me like you are not that type of player so you dont understand the mentality behind that.

Yes it does, because you artificially restrict who you play with based on a player-imposed set of rules.

Only if you can't find decent players.

And well decent players usually can find a team.

No, that still hurts those players, even if they can find decent players because that pool of players they can pull from is artificially diminished. I mean, no one should be trying to make a sensible statement that reducing people they can play with (artificially or not) is good ... but here you are?

That's the whole point. It gets harder to find decent players because artificially limiting your 'allowed' playerbase with these restrictions in a game that is designed around a low threshold of success automatically makes it harder. It doesn't get better either. As it gets easier to gear and do damage without the knowledge of how to do it, the shift is to knowing less, not more, about achieving highest DPS capability.

This prolly sounds toxic but if you're actually trying to kill bosses in raids, restricting the pool of players you'd raid with can be necessary for success as sometimes players who don't know how to play their class can make a difference between wiping for an hour and a one-shot kill. Especially if said players are supports or doing some mech that requires understanding the class. Gorseval and Largos are good examples of a bosses where one dps pulling off-chrono tier dps can insta-wipe the squad consistently.If you filter out the players who've previously wiped the squad consistently, chance of finding a decent player actually goes upwards, not downwards.

And tbh, if dps meters were removed, we'd be back to the dark days of toxic commanders kicking any non-metabuilds instead of failing metaplayers. Currently people are actually more open-minded towards people playing how they want than before as good players playing off-meta builds can actually show they can do decent dps while having fun.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

and this is why dps meters get a bad name, certain users think big numbers and fast kills/spamming rotations/wearing zerg gear is more important than interesting gameplay. They also forget people have been happily clearing fractals without thgis kind of attitude. Something has gradually changed, and its not those people happily clearing years ago.

That 'something' is the knowledge of the game accessible to us. It's natural that you can accept a small kid to get his diaper messy, but once you know how to sit on a toilet you're expected to do it.It's basically the same thing, when you know how you can deal dps you're expected to deal dps. it's simple as that. If you don't want to deal dps, don't join teams that are optimized, make your own 'chill run no elitism' and keep failing on skovald

That's STILL a player-determined requirement. The fact is that the game is designed so that you DON'T need that knowledge to the extent that a DPS meter is necessary to filter people out. The question here has NEVER been about if you CAN, you SHOULD. It's about recognizing the game doesn't not require it for success.

Either way, I think it's amusing at this point because the more people insist on these high levels of performance from the playerbase, the more they exclude people they can play with ... players aren't stupid and if you don't want them in your team because they don't do what you think they should (even when it's not necessary), that only hurts you, not them.

It doesnt hurt the side that want certain level of skill at all. Looks to me like you are not that type of player so you dont understand the mentality behind that.

Yes it does, because you artificially restrict who you play with based on a player-imposed set of rules.

You can either w8 30 minutes doing something else (and having fun) and then having fun in raid for 5 minutes or you can kill the boss in 30 minutes without any fun.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

and this is why dps meters get a bad name, certain users think big numbers and fast kills/spamming rotations/wearing zerg gear is more important than interesting gameplay. They also forget people have been happily clearing fractals without thgis kind of attitude. Something has gradually changed, and its not those people happily clearing years ago.

That 'something' is the knowledge of the game accessible to us. It's natural that you can accept a small kid to get his diaper messy, but once you know how to sit on a toilet you're expected to do it.It's basically the same thing, when you know how you can deal dps you're expected to deal dps. it's simple as that. If you don't want to deal dps, don't join teams that are optimized, make your own 'chill run no elitism' and keep failing on skovald

That's STILL a player-determined requirement. The fact is that the game is designed so that you DON'T need that knowledge to the extent that a DPS meter is necessary to filter people out. The question here has NEVER been about if you CAN, you SHOULD. It's about recognizing the game doesn't not require it for success.

Either way, I think it's amusing at this point because the more people insist on these high levels of performance from the playerbase, the more they exclude people they can play with ... players aren't stupid and if you don't want them in your team because they don't do what you think they should (even when it's not necessary), that only hurts you, not them.

It doesnt hurt the side that want certain level of skill at all. Looks to me like you are not that type of player so you dont understand the mentality behind that.

Yes it does, because you artificially restrict who you play with based on a player-imposed set of rules.

Only if you can't find decent players.

And well decent players usually can find a team.

No, that still hurts those players, even if they can find decent players because that pool of players they can pull from is artificially diminished. I mean, no one should be trying to make a sensible statement that reducing people they can play with (artificially or not) is good ... but here you are?

Your first mistake is to consider the entire playerbase as equal in terms of skill. If we were to take a reasonable real life example of say a job opening: you don't look for just ANY person to fill that spot and the more challenging the position, the harsher and restricting the search criteria in general. That's efficient and often required. So the argument that artificially restricting the pool of players makes no sense is plain incorrect. It's being done in multiple fields of live with great success and is often even necessary.

Now how does one get to fill the criteria for such a position? By working the way up to meet the required abilities. This is akin to joining trainings, practicing rotations, finding a guild who will teach one, etc.

Joining a high performance group with absolute no encounter knowledge would even be detrimental. You get "carried" by other players, likely gain less/no experience than when actively working on clearing the boss and potentially even end up with completely incorrect experience and approach if other players cover your mistakes. The only thing accomlished here is maybe gaining the reward, which is not the same as becoming more proficient at the game.

If this is only about reward distribution among as many arbitrary players as possible, sure then artificial restrictions are not useful.

@Obtena.7952 said:That's the whole point. It gets harder to find decent players because artificially limiting your 'allowed' playerbase with these restrictions in a game that is designed around a low threshold of success automatically makes it harder. It doesn't get better either. As it gets easier to gear and do damage without the knowledge of how to do it, the shift is to knowing less, not more, about achieving highest DPS capability.

Sorry, again treating all players as equal especially in light of the high performance differences even with similar gear, builds an traits, is not a healthy way to argue. There is players doing 1-4k dps now as they did 7 years ago. Gear and skills/traits are of minor consequence here.

As was pointed out in multiple threads on this topic: Guild Wars 2 is one of the few MMORPGS which require players to actually get better with their gameplay, without being able to outgear content severly. Improving and becoming better at things always entails practice.

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Can relate. I did Arkk once and been flagged like 4 times in a row for Corporeal Reassignment.Then someone started to troll me because my DPS lower compared to previous boss fight. My primary Fractal characters are melee, and traits focused on melee. There is no choice but to have lower DPS while you sit in containment, even if you switch in ranged mode.

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@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

and this is why dps meters get a bad name, certain users think big numbers and fast kills/spamming rotations/wearing zerg gear is more important than interesting gameplay. They also forget people have been happily clearing fractals without thgis kind of attitude. Something has gradually changed, and its not those people happily clearing years ago.

That 'something' is the knowledge of the game accessible to us. It's natural that you can accept a small kid to get his diaper messy, but once you know how to sit on a toilet you're expected to do it.It's basically the same thing, when you know how you can deal dps you're expected to deal dps. it's simple as that. If you don't want to deal dps, don't join teams that are optimized, make your own 'chill run no elitism' and keep failing on skovald

That's STILL a player-determined requirement. The fact is that the game is designed so that you DON'T need that knowledge to the extent that a DPS meter is necessary to filter people out. The question here has NEVER been about if you CAN, you SHOULD. It's about recognizing the game doesn't not require it for success.

Either way, I think it's amusing at this point because the more people insist on these high levels of performance from the playerbase, the more they exclude people they can play with ... players aren't stupid and if you don't want them in your team because they don't do what you think they should (even when it's not necessary), that only hurts you, not them.

It doesnt hurt the side that want certain level of skill at all. Looks to me like you are not that type of player so you dont understand the mentality behind that.

Yes it does, because you artificially restrict who you play with based on a player-imposed set of rules.

You can either w8 30 minutes doing something else (and having fun) and then having fun in raid for 5 minutes or you can kill the boss in 30 minutes without any fun.

This exactly.I pretty much only enjoy group content, running it with like-minded players that is. Making my enjoyment of this content more about the people I run with rather than any specific wings or bosses. Meaning that I would hardly stay around to raid with those I do not enjoy playing with, in a way that is no fun to me after we make sure to make even more people quit due to the raids becoming even less interesting for the hardcore and semi-hardcore communities.A lack of new content isn't enough, we also need to make sure they can no longer run the old content the way they enjoy.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

and this is why dps meters get a bad name, certain users think big numbers and fast kills/spamming rotations/wearing zerg gear is more important than interesting gameplay. They also forget people have been happily clearing fractals without thgis kind of attitude. Something has gradually changed, and its not those people happily clearing years ago.

That 'something' is the knowledge of the game accessible to us. It's natural that you can accept a small kid to get his diaper messy, but once you know how to sit on a toilet you're expected to do it.It's basically the same thing, when you know how you can deal dps you're expected to deal dps. it's simple as that. If you don't want to deal dps, don't join teams that are optimized, make your own 'chill run no elitism' and keep failing on skovald

That's STILL a player-determined requirement. The fact is that the game is designed so that you DON'T need that knowledge to the extent that a DPS meter is necessary to filter people out. The question here has NEVER been about if you CAN, you SHOULD. It's about recognizing the game doesn't not require it for success.

Either way, I think it's amusing at this point because the more people insist on these high levels of performance from the playerbase, the more they exclude people they can play with ... players aren't stupid and if you don't want them in your team because they don't do what you think they should (even when it's not necessary), that only hurts you, not them.

It doesnt hurt the side that want certain level of skill at all. Looks to me like you are not that type of player so you dont understand the mentality behind that.

Yes it does, because you artificially restrict who you play with based on a player-imposed set of rules.

Only if you can't find decent players.

And well decent players usually can find a team.

No, that still hurts those players, even if they can find decent players because that pool of players they can pull from is artificially diminished. I mean, no one should be trying to make a sensible statement that reducing people they can play with (artificially or not) is good ... but here you are?

Your first mistake is to consider the entire playerbase as equal in terms of skill. If we were to take a reasonable real life example of say a job opening: you don't look for just ANY person to fill that spot and the more challenging the position, the harsher and restricting the search criteria in general.

No, that is YOUR mistake to look at an opening in a raid team like a job. See, that's why I don't have these problems... My view of the game is that I play because of fun .. or more accurately, my definition of fun isn't about being in the top 1% DPS. I have found other people with the same philosophy ... and because we have this healthy view AND the game is designed to support that philosophy ... these aren't problems for us.

You can play how you want ... and if you're view of doing that is FUN = being in the top 1% DPS. That's fine. Just be aware that you are in small company relative to people that don't think that way. This conversation would be different if GW2 was like lots of other games where high performance is needed for success and certainly, there are some places in GW2 that's true ... but the majority of the game does not prescribe to that idea so the baggage people bring with them from those other games doesn't help them in this game.

I see little value in rehashing arguments I had with metapushers from 6 years ago; they were wrong then and they are wrong now. The fact is that this game is not designed to exclude people who play how they want ... and that includes people that DO NOT want to be in the 1% club. That's why you can carry people and succeed in most cases ... because that's the intention of the game.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

and this is why dps meters get a bad name, certain users think big numbers and fast kills/spamming rotations/wearing zerg gear is more important than interesting gameplay. They also forget people have been happily clearing fractals without thgis kind of attitude. Something has gradually changed, and its not those people happily clearing years ago.

That 'something' is the knowledge of the game accessible to us. It's natural that you can accept a small kid to get his diaper messy, but once you know how to sit on a toilet you're expected to do it.It's basically the same thing, when you know how you can deal dps you're expected to deal dps. it's simple as that. If you don't want to deal dps, don't join teams that are optimized, make your own 'chill run no elitism' and keep failing on skovald

That's STILL a player-determined requirement. The fact is that the game is designed so that you DON'T need that knowledge to the extent that a DPS meter is necessary to filter people out. The question here has NEVER been about if you CAN, you SHOULD. It's about recognizing the game doesn't not require it for success.

Either way, I think it's amusing at this point because the more people insist on these high levels of performance from the playerbase, the more they exclude people they can play with ... players aren't stupid and if you don't want them in your team because they don't do what you think they should (even when it's not necessary), that only hurts you, not them.

It doesnt hurt the side that want certain level of skill at all. Looks to me like you are not that type of player so you dont understand the mentality behind that.

Yes it does, because you artificially restrict who you play with based on a player-imposed set of rules.

Only if you can't find decent players.

And well decent players usually can find a team.

No, that still hurts those players, even if they can find decent players because that pool of players they can pull from is artificially diminished. I mean, no one should be trying to make a sensible statement that reducing people they can play with (artificially or not) is good ... but here you are?

Your first mistake is to consider the entire playerbase as equal in terms of skill. If we were to take a reasonable real life example of say a job opening: you don't look for just ANY person to fill that spot and the more challenging the position, the harsher and restricting the search criteria in general.

No, that is YOUR mistake to look at an opening in a raid team like a job. See, that's why I don't have these problems... My view of the game is that I play because of fun .. or more accurately, my definition of fun isn't about being in the top 1% DPS. I have found other people with the same philosophy ... and because we have this healthy view AND the game is designed to support that philosophy ... these aren't problems for us.

You can play how you want ... and if you're view of doing that is FUN = being in the top 1% DPS. That's fine. Just be aware that you are in small company relative to people that don't think that way. This conversation would be different if GW2 was like lots of other games where high performance is needed for success and certainly, there are some places in GW2 that's true ... but the majority of the game does not prescribe to that idea so the baggage people bring with them from those other games doesn't help them in this game.

I see little value in rehashing arguments I had with metapushers from 6 years ago; they were wrong then and they are wrong now. The fact is that this game is not designed to exclude people who play how they want ... and that includes people that DO NOT want to be in the 1% club. That's why you can carry people and succeed in most cases ... because that's the intention of the game.

To be fair, game is designed with our philosophy too because commander can kick anyone without any reason. His/hers squad so his/hers rules.In fractals it is diferent but multiple players can kick anyone if they dont want him there. That works for both sides.

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@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

and this is why dps meters get a bad name, certain users think big numbers and fast kills/spamming rotations/wearing zerg gear is more important than interesting gameplay. They also forget people have been happily clearing fractals without thgis kind of attitude. Something has gradually changed, and its not those people happily clearing years ago.

That 'something' is the knowledge of the game accessible to us. It's natural that you can accept a small kid to get his diaper messy, but once you know how to sit on a toilet you're expected to do it.It's basically the same thing, when you know how you can deal dps you're expected to deal dps. it's simple as that. If you don't want to deal dps, don't join teams that are optimized, make your own 'chill run no elitism' and keep failing on skovald

That's STILL a player-determined requirement. The fact is that the game is designed so that you DON'T need that knowledge to the extent that a DPS meter is necessary to filter people out. The question here has NEVER been about if you CAN, you SHOULD. It's about recognizing the game doesn't not require it for success.

Either way, I think it's amusing at this point because the more people insist on these high levels of performance from the playerbase, the more they exclude people they can play with ... players aren't stupid and if you don't want them in your team because they don't do what you think they should (even when it's not necessary), that only hurts you, not them.

It doesnt hurt the side that want certain level of skill at all. Looks to me like you are not that type of player so you dont understand the mentality behind that.

Yes it does, because you artificially restrict who you play with based on a player-imposed set of rules.

Only if you can't find decent players.

And well decent players usually can find a team.

No, that still hurts those players, even if they can find decent players because that pool of players they can pull from is artificially diminished. I mean, no one should be trying to make a sensible statement that reducing people they can play with (artificially or not) is good ... but here you are?

Your first mistake is to consider the entire playerbase as equal in terms of skill. If we were to take a reasonable real life example of say a job opening: you don't look for just ANY person to fill that spot and the more challenging the position, the harsher and restricting the search criteria in general.

No, that is YOUR mistake to look at an opening in a raid team like a job. See, that's why I don't have these problems... My view of the game is that I play because of fun .. or more accurately, my definition of fun isn't about being in the top 1% DPS. I have found other people with the same philosophy ... and because we have this healthy view AND the game is designed to support that philosophy ... these aren't problems for us.

You can play how you want ... and if you're view of doing that is FUN = being in the top 1% DPS. That's fine. Just be aware that you are in small company relative to people that don't think that way. This conversation would be different if GW2 was like lots of other games where high performance is needed for success and certainly, there are some places in GW2 that's true ... but the majority of the game does not prescribe to that idea so the baggage people bring with them from those other games doesn't help them in this game.

I see little value in rehashing arguments I had with metapushers from 6 years ago; they were wrong then and they are wrong now. The fact is that this game is not designed to exclude people who play how they want ... and that includes people that DO NOT want to be in the 1% club. That's why you can carry people and succeed in most cases ... because that's the intention of the game.

To be fair, game is designed with our philosophy too because commander can kick anyone without any reason. His/hers squad so his/hers rules.In fractals it is diferent but multiple players can kick anyone if they dont want him there. That works for both sides.

That doesn't make sense ... kicking people is a basic function of the game, regardless of whatever philosophy you adhere to. You can kick someone for any reason you want. So the ability to kick doesn't seem to me to favour any philosophy.

What I do know is that the threshold for success is low and deficiencies can be overcome with a team approach, so the game design does support the idea people can play how they want and be successful, including people that don't care about performance.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

and this is why dps meters get a bad name, certain users think big numbers and fast kills/spamming rotations/wearing zerg gear is more important than interesting gameplay. They also forget people have been happily clearing fractals without thgis kind of attitude. Something has gradually changed, and its not those people happily clearing years ago.

That 'something' is the knowledge of the game accessible to us. It's natural that you can accept a small kid to get his diaper messy, but once you know how to sit on a toilet you're expected to do it.It's basically the same thing, when you know how you can deal dps you're expected to deal dps. it's simple as that. If you don't want to deal dps, don't join teams that are optimized, make your own 'chill run no elitism' and keep failing on skovald

That's STILL a player-determined requirement. The fact is that the game is designed so that you DON'T need that knowledge to the extent that a DPS meter is necessary to filter people out. The question here has NEVER been about if you CAN, you SHOULD. It's about recognizing the game doesn't not require it for success.

Either way, I think it's amusing at this point because the more people insist on these high levels of performance from the playerbase, the more they exclude people they can play with ... players aren't stupid and if you don't want them in your team because they don't do what you think they should (even when it's not necessary), that only hurts you, not them.

It doesnt hurt the side that want certain level of skill at all. Looks to me like you are not that type of player so you dont understand the mentality behind that.

Yes it does, because you artificially restrict who you play with based on a player-imposed set of rules.

Only if you can't find decent players.

And well decent players usually can find a team.

No, that still hurts those players, even if they can find decent players because that pool of players they can pull from is artificially diminished. I mean, no one should be trying to make a sensible statement that reducing people they can play with (artificially or not) is good ... but here you are?

Your first mistake is to consider the entire playerbase as equal in terms of skill. If we were to take a reasonable real life example of say a job opening: you don't look for just ANY person to fill that spot and the more challenging the position, the harsher and restricting the search criteria in general.

No, that is YOUR mistake to look at an opening in a raid team like a job. See, that's why I don't have these problems... My view of the game is that I play because of fun .. or more accurately, my definition of fun isn't about being in the top 1% DPS. I have found other people with the same philosophy ... and because we have this healthy view AND the game is designed to support that philosophy ... these aren't problems for us.

You can play how you want ... and if you're view of doing that is FUN = being in the top 1% DPS. That's fine. Just be aware that you are in small company relative to people that don't think that way. This conversation would be different if GW2 was like lots of other games where high performance is needed for success and certainly, there are some places in GW2 that's true ... but the majority of the game does not prescribe to that idea so the baggage people bring with them from those other games doesn't help them in this game.

I see little value in rehashing arguments I had with metapushers from 6 years ago; they were wrong then and they are wrong now. The fact is that this game is not designed to exclude people who play how they want ... and that includes people that DO NOT want to be in the 1% club. That's why you can carry people and succeed in most cases ... because that's the intention of the game.

To be fair, game is designed with our philosophy too because commander can kick anyone without any reason. His/hers squad so his/hers rules.In fractals it is diferent but multiple players can kick anyone if they dont want him there. That works for both sides.

That doesn't make sense ... kicking people is a basic function of the game, regardless of whatever philosophy you adhere to. You can kick someone for any reason you want. Whatever philosophy you have doesn't matter. So the ability to kick doesn't seem to me to favour any philosophy.

What I do know is that the threshold for success is low and deficiencies can be overcome with a team approach, so the game design does support the idea people can play how they want and be successful, including people that don't care about performance.

But if you are a commander you can set any requirements YOU want. If anyone dont match those you can freely kick him/her. If someone wants pink armor thats ok. If someone else want 5000KP and 1000g donation that is also ok. If you dont match requirements then it is up to COMMANDER to decide if he wants you there. End of story

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@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

and this is why dps meters get a bad name, certain users think big numbers and fast kills/spamming rotations/wearing zerg gear is more important than interesting gameplay. They also forget people have been happily clearing fractals without thgis kind of attitude. Something has gradually changed, and its not those people happily clearing years ago.

That 'something' is the knowledge of the game accessible to us. It's natural that you can accept a small kid to get his diaper messy, but once you know how to sit on a toilet you're expected to do it.It's basically the same thing, when you know how you can deal dps you're expected to deal dps. it's simple as that. If you don't want to deal dps, don't join teams that are optimized, make your own 'chill run no elitism' and keep failing on skovald

That's STILL a player-determined requirement. The fact is that the game is designed so that you DON'T need that knowledge to the extent that a DPS meter is necessary to filter people out. The question here has NEVER been about if you CAN, you SHOULD. It's about recognizing the game doesn't not require it for success.

Either way, I think it's amusing at this point because the more people insist on these high levels of performance from the playerbase, the more they exclude people they can play with ... players aren't stupid and if you don't want them in your team because they don't do what you think they should (even when it's not necessary), that only hurts you, not them.

It doesnt hurt the side that want certain level of skill at all. Looks to me like you are not that type of player so you dont understand the mentality behind that.

Yes it does, because you artificially restrict who you play with based on a player-imposed set of rules.

Only if you can't find decent players.

And well decent players usually can find a team.

No, that still hurts those players, even if they can find decent players because that pool of players they can pull from is artificially diminished. I mean, no one should be trying to make a sensible statement that reducing people they can play with (artificially or not) is good ... but here you are?

Your first mistake is to consider the entire playerbase as equal in terms of skill. If we were to take a reasonable real life example of say a job opening: you don't look for just ANY person to fill that spot and the more challenging the position, the harsher and restricting the search criteria in general.

No, that is YOUR mistake to look at an opening in a raid team like a job. See, that's why I don't have these problems... My view of the game is that I play because of fun .. or more accurately, my definition of fun isn't about being in the top 1% DPS. I have found other people with the same philosophy ... and because we have this healthy view AND the game is designed to support that philosophy ... these aren't problems for us.

You can play how you want ... and if you're view of doing that is FUN = being in the top 1% DPS. That's fine. Just be aware that you are in small company relative to people that don't think that way. This conversation would be different if GW2 was like lots of other games where high performance is needed for success and certainly, there are some places in GW2 that's true ... but the majority of the game does not prescribe to that idea so the baggage people bring with them from those other games doesn't help them in this game.

I see little value in rehashing arguments I had with metapushers from 6 years ago; they were wrong then and they are wrong now. The fact is that this game is not designed to exclude people who play how they want ... and that includes people that DO NOT want to be in the 1% club. That's why you can carry people and succeed in most cases ... because that's the intention of the game.

To be fair, game is designed with our philosophy too because commander can kick anyone without any reason. His/hers squad so his/hers rules.In fractals it is diferent but multiple players can kick anyone if they dont want him there. That works for both sides.

That doesn't make sense ... kicking people is a basic function of the game, regardless of whatever philosophy you adhere to. You can kick someone for any reason you want. Whatever philosophy you have doesn't matter. So the ability to kick doesn't seem to me to favour any philosophy.

What I do know is that the threshold for success is low and deficiencies can be overcome with a team approach, so the game design does support the idea people can play how they want and be successful, including people that don't care about performance.

But if you are a commander you can set any requirements YOU want. If anyone dont match those you can freely kick him/her. If someone wants pink armor thats ok. If someone else want 5000KP and 1000g donation that is also ok. If you dont match requirements then it is up to COMMANDER to decide if he wants you there. End of story

Yeah ... I'm not saying anything contrary to that. I don't see how your point is related to the discussion.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

and this is why dps meters get a bad name, certain users think big numbers and fast kills/spamming rotations/wearing zerg gear is more important than interesting gameplay. They also forget people have been happily clearing fractals without thgis kind of attitude. Something has gradually changed, and its not those people happily clearing years ago.

That 'something' is the knowledge of the game accessible to us. It's natural that you can accept a small kid to get his diaper messy, but once you know how to sit on a toilet you're expected to do it.It's basically the same thing, when you know how you can deal dps you're expected to deal dps. it's simple as that. If you don't want to deal dps, don't join teams that are optimized, make your own 'chill run no elitism' and keep failing on skovald

That's STILL a player-determined requirement. The fact is that the game is designed so that you DON'T need that knowledge to the extent that a DPS meter is necessary to filter people out. The question here has NEVER been about if you CAN, you SHOULD. It's about recognizing the game doesn't not require it for success.

Either way, I think it's amusing at this point because the more people insist on these high levels of performance from the playerbase, the more they exclude people they can play with ... players aren't stupid and if you don't want them in your team because they don't do what you think they should (even when it's not necessary), that only hurts you, not them.

It doesnt hurt the side that want certain level of skill at all. Looks to me like you are not that type of player so you dont understand the mentality behind that.

Yes it does, because you artificially restrict who you play with based on a player-imposed set of rules.

Only if you can't find decent players.

And well decent players usually can find a team.

No, that still hurts those players, even if they can find decent players because that pool of players they can pull from is artificially diminished. I mean, no one should be trying to make a sensible statement that reducing people they can play with (artificially or not) is good ... but here you are?

Your first mistake is to consider the entire playerbase as equal in terms of skill. If we were to take a reasonable real life example of say a job opening: you don't look for just ANY person to fill that spot and the more challenging the position, the harsher and restricting the search criteria in general.

No, that is YOUR mistake to look at an opening in a raid team like a job. See, that's why I don't have these problems... My view of the game is that I play because of fun .. or more accurately, my definition of fun isn't about being in the top 1% DPS. I have found other people with the same philosophy ... and because we have this healthy view AND the game is designed to support that philosophy ... these aren't problems for us.

No, I was bringing this example to directly refute your argument that limiting applicants makes no sense. That argument is nosense when it comes to efficiency as proven by its successful use in just about any sector where proficiency is of consequence.

How one stands on the issue of how much this is required for a game is a completely different issue.

@Obtena.7952 said:You can play how you want ... and if you're view of doing that is FUN = being in the top 1% DPS. That's fine. Just be aware that you are in small company relative to people that don't think that way. This conversation would be different if GW2 was like lots of other games where high performance is needed for success and certainly, there are some places in GW2 that's true ... but the majority of the game does not prescribe to that idea so the baggage people bring with them from those other games doesn't help them in this game.

Then all is fine. If everyone gets to play how they want, no one should take offence. That also includes that no one is allowed to take offence at people who do not want to play with them, right?

@Obtena.7952 said:I see little value in rehashing arguments I had with metapushers from 6 years ago; they were wrong then and they are wrong now. The fact is that this game is not designed to exclude people who play how they want ... and that includes people that DO NOT want to be in the 1% club. That's why you can carry people and succeed in most cases ... because that's the intention of the game.

You don't have to be in the 1% club. Unfortunately, you kind of have to be in the 10% club because the bottom 90% club is utter trash game skill wise. But as you mentioned, if all players play with whom and how they want, no one should have an issue.

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A smaller pool of applicants is the logical result of imposing player-made restrictions when forming a team ... so it does make sense.

Here is why DPS meters are not good ... because they give a false sense of what a player is capable of doing. They are toxic because people use them in this way to filter people. The range of DPS for most instance content is so wide that you could literally short-man most of them, so don't pull that "not 1%, but probably 10%" stuff ... there is a SIGNIFICANT margin of DPS range that can win most encounters ... and it only gets easier to accomplish as more good gear gets released.

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@"Obtena.7952" said:A smaller pool of applicants is the logical result of imposing player-made restrictions when forming a team ... so it does make sense.

Here is why DPS meters are not good ... because they give a false sense of what a player is capable of doing. They are toxic because people use them in this way to filter people. The range of DPS for most instance content is so wide that you could literally short-man most of them, so don't pull that "not 1%, but probably 10%" stuff ... there is a SIGNIFICANT margin of DPS range that can win most encounters ... and it only gets easier to accomplish as more good gear gets released.

I am not talking about actual performance difference on the dps meter.

I am talking about actual players willing, able and capable to perform to in some way clear a raid or challenge mode fractal. That's at best 10-15% of the entire player base if we count EVERY person with minimal raid experience.

If we talk decent or even good performance, sure you will end up very fast in the top 1% of players.

As far as use of the dps meter. I don't know what others use it for, but I do regular analysis of positioning, boon uptime, damage taken and rotations regularly. Both to see where the static I am in has issues, where we have gaps and which members need to practice. EDIT: and obviously if a trial canditate gets to stay or not. For training runs it's mostly a positioning and mechanic fails thing (obviously for different groups I run with).

EDIT 2: yes, there is a range. Why should my static settle for less though? We clear Dhuum in half a rotation which reduces time of the engagement and thus a reduced chance to mess up a mechanic. Most members are at 150-250+ Dhuum KP with obviously over 100 successful kills or more. Most enjoy pushing their class to the max. Why should this group take in a player who performs far below this standard?

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@knite.1542 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Most enjoy pushing their class to the max. Why should this group take in a player who performs far below this standard?

I guess the argument is that as long as you can get the kill, you should accept any and everyone. And if you don't do that, you are toxic.

If that is true than that is the dumbest thing I heared in a while. Would be ok if there was could and not should.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:A smaller pool of applicants is the logical result of imposing player-made restrictions when forming a team ... so it does make sense.

Here is why DPS meters are not good ... because they give a false sense of what a player is capable of doing. They are toxic because people use them in this way to filter people. The range of DPS for most instance content is so wide that you could literally short-man most of them, so don't pull that "not 1%, but probably 10%" stuff ... there is a SIGNIFICANT margin of DPS range that can win most encounters ... and it only gets easier to accomplish as more good gear gets released.

I am not talking about actual performance difference on the dps meter.

I am talking about actual players willing, able and capable to perform to in some way clear a raid or challenge mode fractal.

OK. The topic is about how DPS meters related to toxic game environments and I've never seen anyone say they needed a DPS meter to learn how to clear raids or challenge mode fractals so ... I'm not what conversation you are having with who.

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@"Obtena.7952" said:A smaller pool of applicants is the logical result of imposing player-made restrictions when forming a team ... so it does make sense.

Here is why DPS meters are not good ... because they give a false sense of what a player is capable of doing. They are toxic because people use them in this way to filter people. The range of DPS for most instance content is so wide that you could literally short-man most of them, so don't pull that "not 1%, but probably 10%" stuff ... there is a SIGNIFICANT margin of DPS range that can win most encounters ... and it only gets easier to accomplish as more good gear gets released.

Smaller pool of aplicants doesnt matter. It only increse the time you need to w8 for them. That is not an issue because you can do something totaly diferent and fun while waiting. For example I am painting/glueing miniatures. I could take bad players to raid instead but that wouldnt be fun.

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@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:A smaller pool of applicants is the logical result of imposing player-made restrictions when forming a team ... so it does make sense.

Here is why DPS meters are not good ... because they give a false sense of what a player is capable of doing. They are toxic because people use them in this way to filter people. The range of DPS for most instance content is so wide that you could literally short-man most of them, so don't pull that "not 1%, but probably 10%" stuff ... there is a SIGNIFICANT margin of DPS range that can win most encounters ... and it only gets easier to accomplish as more good gear gets released.

Smaller pool of aplicants doesnt matter. It only increse the time you need to w8 for them. That is not an issue because you can do something totaly diferent and fun while waiting. For example I am painting/glueing miniatures. I could take bad players to raid instead but that wouldnt be fun.

Well, either way, the it has a negative impact, which was my point. Smaller pool, longer wait times OR both ... the point is that artificial restrictions have a negative impact on the people that impose them. I don't really care what they are.

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@knite.1542 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Most enjoy pushing their class to the max. Why should this group take in a player who performs far below this standard?

I guess the argument is that as long as you can get the kill, you should accept any and everyone. And if you don't do that, you are toxic.

Put it this way ... what is the difference in loot if you kill something in 3 minutes or 5? This game is not designed to reward exceptional performance anymore than marginal performance. It's black and white ... you either succeed or you don't. How you do that it up to you. But make no mistake, how you do that can have a negative or positive impact on you, depending on how you view the game and if your views are aligned to how the game is designed.

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@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:I could take bad players to raid instead but that wouldnt be fun.

This right here is one of the biggest things for me.

If I had to choose between someone that is going to perform well or someone that performs badly and then goes on the forum to say we should ban DPS meters, which person should I pick to play with?

If you want to play at a lower level that's fine, but you shouldn't get upset (or surprised) when higher skill level players don't want to play with you. Playing with low skilled players that would rather argue than improve is pretty frustrating, and these players often hold back groups. And repeatedly wiping, or taking 2 hours to clear content that could otherwise be cleared in 45 minutes has a very negative impact on me.

edit: Another thing that makes me think is, are lower skilled players actually happy with low DPS? If you are playing a class that can do 30k DPS but you are only doing 8k DPS, wouldn't you want to improve? Clearly there are a lot of people that would not, but I have no interest in playing with people like that.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Most enjoy pushing their class to the max. Why should this group take in a player who performs far below this standard?

I guess the argument is that as long as you can get the kill, you should accept any and everyone. And if you don't do that, you are toxic.

Put it this way ... what is the difference in loot if you kill something in 3 minutes or 5? This game is not designed to reward exceptional performance anymore than marginal performance. It's black and white ... you either succeed or you don't. How you do that it up to you. But make no mistake, how you do that can have a negative or positive impact on you, depending on how you view the game and if your views are aligned to how the game is designed.

Clearing a boss in 3 or 5 minutes doesn't really make much difference unless you're fullclearing (in which case you'd save about 40-50 minutes by having a good squad), true. But people with marginal dps usually tend to fail mechanics hard and if you have enough of those people in same squad, even easier bosses can get painful or outright undoable. And if the squad struggles with dps at easier bosses, there's usually no way they'd successfully kill some harder bosses. For ex. Gorseval, KC and CA can get really difficult if 2 dpsers play way below the average.And wiping even once per boss more than doubles the time needed to clear the content and if you have limited time, that means you can clear less bosses in one session which in turn means less rewards and that would count as negative impact, wouldn't it?And on other note, you can carry the squad through bunch of bosses by playing a heal-scourge at top-tier level but it requires a huge amount of effort and stress to cover for some players not putting in any effort. And that very quickly takes the fun away from raiding. If you have to play a support at top 1% level to carry a squad of the lowest 10%, you easily start feeling like your perfect boon uptimes get wasted.

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