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@Killthehealersffs.8940 @Psycoprophet.8107staff/staff daredevil is op in the sense that it warps the game around it since only particular builds can deal with it.But i am 100% against nerfing staff to the point of un-play ability, which seams like it will be the case, just because 1 degenerate build poped up and is abusing the on swap trait and sigils to bunker points. Daredevil was never meant to be a bunker but a bruiser, there is a big difference there.

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@foste.3098 said:@Killthehealersffs.8940 @"Psycoprophet.8107"staff/staff daredevil is op in the sense that it warps the game around it since only particular builds can deal with it.But i am 100% against nerfing staff to the point of un-play ability, which seams like it will be the case, just because 1 degenerate build poped up and is abusing the on swap trait and sigils to bunker points. Daredevil was never meant to be a bunker but a bruiser, there is a big difference there.

The ini increase will kill the skill full stop, why use it now? The cost of thief skills are universally to high as it is hence the reliance on preparedness. I could be wrong but be prepared for thief being once again stripped of all 1v1 viability not that it had a lot and be delegated back to only +1 and decap right where the community wants it to be. I guarantee any thief build that arises that's a decent 1v1 with get massive nerf cry's regardless of whether its OP and I bet will be continually nerfed into non viability. Also a build being effective especially thief builds will always be "un fun" for players fighting it do to a rogues design and rogues are always top or near top of any most favorite class polls in mmo's due to theme so of course ur gonna see alot of any of the viable builds they have in MAT's. So there op if their common in MAT's? Unlike the other mainstay classes unless their there just to decap? Anyway itl be fun watching what happens across the board lol

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@foste.3098 said:@Killthehealersffs.8940 @Psycoprophet.8107staff/staff daredevil is op in the sense that it warps the game around it since only particular builds can deal with it.But i am 100% against nerfing staff to the point of un-play ability, which seams like it will be the case, just because 1 degenerate build poped up and is abusing the on swap trait and sigils to bunker points. Daredevil was never meant to be a bunker but a bruiser, there is a big difference there.

The ini increase will kill the skill full stop, why use it now? The cost of thief skills are universally to high as it is hence the reliance on preparedness. I could be wrong but be prepared for thief being once again stripped of all 1v1 viability not that it had a lot and be delegated back to only +1 and decap right where the community wants it to be. I guarantee any thief build that arises that's a decent 1v1 with get massive nerf cry's regardless of whether its OP and I bet will be continually nerfed into non viability. Also a build being effective especially thief builds will always be "un fun" for players fighting it do to a rogues design and rogues are always top or near top of any most favorite class polls in mmo's due to theme so of course ur gonna see alot of any of the viable builds they have in MAT's. So there op if their common in MAT's? Unlike the other mainstay classes unless their there just to decap? Anyway itl be fun watching what happens across the board lol

To be fair its not that the build is OP its not OP in anyway the damage is fairly minimal and easy to reduce in most cases the build does not kill you quickly.How ever if you look at staff 3 normally there is a small period after the roll back where the thief is going to get hit no matter how hard you are smashing that dodge button (assuming the attacker times their attacks correctly) as its got a weird aftercast on the roll back.Jumping removes this gap and still gives you the i frames which can be used to make the evades seem-less meaning you pretty much cannot get hit so long as you really know what you are doing.

Considering you can be in for extended periods of time while dealing damage while avoiding damage the counterplay is minimal. About the only thing that counters this style of play is shocking aura and that in itself is super limited to ele / tempest.That said its not so much that its OP its more so that most people literally cannot fight it because you cant get hit for long periods of time. After about 20 seconds of evades and exchanging small bits of damage in most cases the person trying to attack you gets bored of you.

Insta kill meta feels bad but the "nothing dies meta" (HoT ideally) was far worse.If the build had more counterplay options it would be fine. Its not that it does too much damage its that people just cant hit you. Your hold of the power role is too high in any given situation in this case.

That said i think they should have just given it the ranger gs fix which was abused for the same reason.Simply doing one of the following would have probably been good enough. Cost increase is a bit much imo.

  • Fix the jump bugor
  • Staff 3 instead of evading gives you a few points endurance back
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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Anyway itl be fun watching what happens across the board lol

Yea with this change any staff build will be consigned to oblivion, i mean just by looking at the skills and the proposed change you can see the major issue:increase the ini cost of d.arc to 6, ergo why would you ever use debilitating arc over vault when they have the same cost but vault deals much more dmg, is easier to cleave with, and can be used to close distance rather than to just create it. All this to say that staff as a weapon for daredevil will functionally have 4 skills instead of 5, that is nether good balance nor good design.This is a nerf born out of panic due to the player qq and is a bad one, not at all thought through, however i stand by what i said and staff/staff builds need some sort of change but that one specific build not every build using staff.

As to what will happen i can tell you: daredevil has 2 more extremely potent builds that are being ignored just as staff dd was; one dueling build that deals a metric ton of damage and has lots of cc, and the other that is about +1 and hard burst and all about swipe (this one was made powerful due to swipe cd reduction and the new-ish even the odds trait).Both of these builds are superb for ranked ladder but nether is on meta battle despite both of them existing for well over ~2 years now, so the same story as staff dd.

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@Cal Cohen.2358 said:The feedback and concerns to the incoming changes are all valid, and I wanted to expand a bit more on why we ended up on the change that we did. Here's the situation that we were looking at:

1) There's a clear problem with staff thief based on past tournament games and results2) There's another 'monthly' this weekend. We can expect more of the same comps if nothing changes3) We have a chance to get something into a hotfix.

We absolutely want to fix the problem for the monthly, but working in a hotfix timeline limits the scope of what we we should do. The correct change in a perfect world is a combination of smaller adjustments to (not necessarily all of these at once) Escapist's Fortitude, Roll for Initiative, Quick Pockets, Staff Master, and Debilitating Arc. But because we're doing this as part of a hotfix, the most important consideration is doing something safe. More changes introduce more risk, so we want to limit ourselves to a single change, in addition to the bug fix. The straight initiative increase to Debilitating Arc looks like the highest impact option so that's what we went with. As for making it 6 vs 5 (or solely doing the bug fix), we have one shot at this change before the monthly and we wanted to err on the side of nerfing too hard instead of risking not actually fixing the problem.

So yes the change may be too heavy-handed, and yes there are better changes in the grand scheme of things than the one that was made. We will definitely be revisiting this for the next update, but in the immediate time-frame we had to work with we felt this was the best option available.

First of all I'll like to thank you for the effort and work you have already started to do for the balance of the game and I'm very pleased to see you being active on the forums giving us all a proper explanation and a reason for the changes. I think the nerf is pretty big however it's 100% in the right direction needed in order to bring that spec down a bit.

I'll like to know if we're gonna see these changes before the Monthly(this Saturday) or Tuesday coming up?

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@foste.3098 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:Anyway itl be fun watching what happens across the board lol

Yea with this change any staff build will be consigned to oblivion, i mean just by looking at the skills and the proposed change you can see the major issue:increase the ini cost of d.arc to 6, ergo why would you ever use debilitating arc over vault when they have the same cost but vault deals much more dmg, is easier to cleave with, and can be used to close distance rather than to just create it. All this to say that staff as a weapon for daredevil will functionally have 4 skills instead of 5, that is nether good balance nor good design.This is a nerf born out of panic due to the player qq and is a bad one, not at all thought through, however i stand by what i said and staff/staff builds need some sort of change but that one specific build not every build using staff.

As to what will happen i can tell you: daredevil has 2 more extremely potent builds that are being ignored just as staff dd was; one dueling build that deals a metric ton of damage and has lots of cc, and the other that is about +1 and hard burst and all about swipe (this one was made powerful due to swipe cd reduction and the new-ish even the odds trait).Both of these builds are superb for ranked ladder but nether is on meta battle despite both of them existing for well over ~2 years now, so the same story as staff dd.

All they need to do is remove the jump bug and change the ini gain on weapon swap to something else, something still worth taking. This way the staff/staff build has lower endurance gain and cant bunker as hard with as many evades but is still left with a decent build with above average evades as it should have. Ini increase is not needed and as I said thief is already to heavily reliant on preparedness due to lack of ini whether from to low of a ini baseline or cost of skills being to high, this just adds to a big issue thief has had since forever.

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You got to be kidding me. Are people really crying about a game spec that can be voided by a block? I dont even play thief in pvp but apparently some people cant handle getting rekt by one? I dont think any change is gonna do any good, people will still cry for no reason. Here is some advice : Keep getting rekt by a thief? TRY WARRIOR ! Warrior rampage will slaughter a thief, so now in that case we should look forward to warriors rampage being taken away huh, LOL. I think this entire issue is a waste of the staff time as they should be working on things that actually matter. Tip of the Day: Stop crying and try something diff to counter your crying issues.. LIKE WARRIOR? Just a note from someone who couldnt care less about thief sense they dont rekt me. Dont botther replying, I wont see it sense i rarly touch these forums- for this reason, yall need to grow up and learn how to adapt.

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@foste.3098 said:@Killthehealersffs.8940 @Psycoprophet.8107staff/staff daredevil is op in the sense that it warps the game around it since only particular builds can deal with it.But i am 100% against nerfing staff to the point of un-play ability, which seams like it will be the case, just because 1 degenerate build poped up and is abusing the on swap trait and sigils to bunker points. Daredevil was never meant to be a bunker but a bruiser, there is a big difference there.

i don't see the problem with a build being extremely defensive to keep a node. this is what conquest is about. as for thief, evades is just the only way you can do it, but people seem to hate everything they can't hit.

as for the on swap stuff, you're wrong. caed (i think) once polarized a double s/d build back in the times of dhumfire necro and spirit ranger with the same ini on weapon swap trait. as usual, it got nerfed because people in the history of gw2 have always complained about evades.

if thief evades and stealth keep getting nerfed, how about giving thief an actual build that doesn't rely on them?

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@Jekkt.6045 said:

@foste.3098 said:@Killthehealersffs.8940 @Psycoprophet.8107staff/staff daredevil is op in the sense that it warps the game around it since only particular builds can deal with it.But i am 100% against nerfing staff to the point of un-play ability, which seams like it will be the case, just because 1 degenerate build poped up and is abusing the on swap trait and sigils to bunker points. Daredevil was never meant to be a bunker but a bruiser, there is a big difference there.

i don't see the problem with a build being extremely defensive to keep a node. this is what conquest is about. as for thief, evades is just the only way you can do it, but people seem to hate everything they can't hit.

as for the on swap stuff, you're wrong. caed (i think) once polarized a double s/d build back in the times of dhumfire necro and spirit ranger with the same ini on weapon swap trait. as usual, it got nerfed because people in the history of gw2 have always complained about evades.

if thief evades and stealth keep getting nerfed, how about giving thief an actual build that doesn't rely on them?

This^ its halarious to me that the community spouts op on any thief build that has a chance at 1v1'ing than turns around and complains about thieves always disengaging during fights and how it's unfair. So according to the community thief shouldn't be able to hold its ground because of the mobility it has but at the same time shouldn't be able to have the mobility to constantly disengage due to not being able to hold it's ground lol its beyond funny. The staff/staff build dps isnt near what most dps builds do like if DA or CS was opted for instead of acro. Most other high deeps builds on other classes do more to. So staff/staff is basically a stall build that uses timed evades to sustain due to EVADES being it's way of sustain and its OP? So a warrior or any classes using their multiple passive and active sustain options while having high bursts is ok but a thief that spams evades cuz it's how it lives is OP? Why is any thief build that can somewhat stand its ground op? And why is it OP if thief has mobility if it doesn't have the ability to hold its ground ie disengage? So is thief supposed to be weak 1v1 and have low sustain/hp with just ok disengage potential? Sounds like a viable class to me lol. I hope I'm wrong but I can see the thief class as a whole being basically erased by these new devs with the help of the vocal gw2 community that has little care to the long term health of the game and only want their preferred classes to be in great spots while being barely contested by others, been this way for a long time now.

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@foste.3098 said:@Killthehealersffs.8940 @Psycoprophet.8107staff/staff daredevil is op in the sense that it warps the game around it since only particular builds can deal with it.But i am 100% against nerfing staff to the point of un-play ability, which seams like it will be the case, just because 1 degenerate build poped up and is abusing the on swap trait and sigils to bunker points. Daredevil was never meant to be a bunker but a bruiser, there is a big difference there.

i don't see the problem with a build being extremely defensive to keep a node. this is what conquest is about. as for thief, evades is just the only way you can do it, but people seem to hate everything they can't hit.

as for the on swap stuff, you're wrong. caed (i think) once polarized a double s/d build back in the times of dhumfire necro and spirit ranger with the same ini on weapon swap trait. as usual, it got nerfed because people in the history of gw2 have always complained about evades.

if thief evades and stealth keep getting nerfed, how about giving thief an actual build that doesn't rely on them?

This^ its halarious to me that the community spouts op on any thief build that has a chance at 1v1'ing than turns around and complains about thieves always disengaging during fights and how it's unfair. So according to the community thief shouldn't be able to hold its ground because of the mobility it has but at the same time shouldn't be able to have the mobility to constantly disengage due to not being able to hold it's ground lol its beyond funny. The staff/staff build dps isnt near what most dps builds do like if DA or CS was opted for instead of acro. Most other high deeps builds on other classes do more to. So staff/staff is basically a stall build that uses timed evades to sustain due to EVADES being it's way of sustain and its OP? So a warrior or any classes using their multiple passive and active sustain options while having high bursts is ok but a thief that spams evades cuz it's how it lives is OP? Why is any thief build that can somewhat stand its ground op? And why is it OP if thief has mobility if it doesn't have the ability to hold its ground ie disengage? So is thief supposed to be weak 1v1 and have low sustain/hp with just ok disengage potential? Sounds like a viable class to me lol. I hope I'm wrong but I can see the thief class as a whole being basically erased by these new devs with the help of the vocal gw2 community that has little care to the long term health of the game and only want their preferred classes to be in great spots while being barely contested by others, been this way for a long time now.

So you want to be necormancer with high mobility in a nutshell?The issue is not that it can 1v1

The issue is that while its 1v1'ing its not very subjective to any kind of retaliation other than on hit procs such as retaliation and auras both of which are extremely rare among the professions. Retaliations being limited to mostly guardian and auras like shocking aura being limited to only tempest and base ele for the most part.People dont mind you having lots of evades or a modest amount of stealth what people do mind is not having enough common tools spread throughout the game to combat it. Literally nothing except shocking aura stops that style of play for any decent amount of time and only should the thief choose to strike the aura buffed target.If a build does not allow for others to retaliate reasonably during a moment of down time then that build needs to be adjusted its simple.

No one cares if you get the power to 1v1 people care if they don't ever have a proper turn to fight you back though.

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@"Cal Cohen.2358" said:The feedback and concerns to the incoming changes are all valid, and I wanted to expand a bit more on why we ended up on the change that we did. Here's the situation that we were looking at:

1) There's a clear problem with staff thief based on past tournament games and results2) There's another 'monthly' this weekend. We can expect more of the same comps if nothing changes3) We have a chance to get something into a hotfix.

We absolutely want to fix the problem for the monthly, but working in a hotfix timeline limits the scope of what we we should do. The correct change in a perfect world is a combination of smaller adjustments to (not necessarily all of these at once) Escapist's Fortitude, Roll for Initiative, Quick Pockets, Staff Master, and Debilitating Arc. But because we're doing this as part of a hotfix, the most important consideration is doing something safe. More changes introduce more risk, so we want to limit ourselves to a single change, in addition to the bug fix. The straight initiative increase to Debilitating Arc looks like the highest impact option so that's what we went with. As for making it 6 vs 5 (or solely doing the bug fix), we have one shot at this change before the monthly and we wanted to err on the side of nerfing too hard instead of risking not actually fixing the problem.

So yes the change may be too heavy-handed, and yes there are better changes in the grand scheme of things than the one that was made. We will definitely be revisiting this for the next update, but in the immediate time-frame we had to work with we felt this was the best option available.

I just hope it is no alt+ctrl+del, which most of the "adjustments" end-up for most builds. I can list a dozen builds (if not more) where you guys completely killed and never looked back.

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@ZDragon.3046 said:

@foste.3098 said:@Killthehealersffs.8940 @Psycoprophet.8107staff/staff daredevil is op in the sense that it warps the game around it since only particular builds can deal with it.But i am 100% against nerfing staff to the point of un-play ability, which seams like it will be the case, just because 1 degenerate build poped up and is abusing the on swap trait and sigils to bunker points. Daredevil was never meant to be a bunker but a bruiser, there is a big difference there.

i don't see the problem with a build being extremely defensive to keep a node. this is what conquest is about. as for thief, evades is just the only way you can do it, but people seem to hate everything they can't hit.

as for the on swap stuff, you're wrong. caed (i think) once polarized a double s/d build back in the times of dhumfire necro and spirit ranger with the same ini on weapon swap trait. as usual, it got nerfed because people in the history of gw2 have always complained about evades.

if thief evades and stealth keep getting nerfed, how about giving thief an actual build that doesn't rely on them?

This^ its halarious to me that the community spouts op on any thief build that has a chance at 1v1'ing than turns around and complains about thieves always disengaging during fights and how it's unfair. So according to the community thief shouldn't be able to hold its ground because of the mobility it has but at the same time shouldn't be able to have the mobility to constantly disengage due to not being able to hold it's ground lol its beyond funny. The staff/staff build dps isnt near what most dps builds do like if DA or CS was opted for instead of acro. Most other high deeps builds on other classes do more to. So staff/staff is basically a stall build that uses timed evades to sustain due to EVADES being it's way of sustain and its OP? So a warrior or any classes using their multiple passive and active sustain options while having high bursts is ok but a thief that spams evades cuz it's how it lives is OP? Why is any thief build that can somewhat stand its ground op? And why is it OP if thief has mobility if it doesn't have the ability to hold its ground ie disengage? So is thief supposed to be weak 1v1 and have low sustain/hp with just ok disengage potential? Sounds like a viable class to me lol. I hope I'm wrong but I can see the thief class as a whole being basically erased by these new devs with the help of the vocal gw2 community that has little care to the long term health of the game and only want their preferred classes to be in great spots while being barely contested by others, been this way for a long time now.

So you want to be necormancer with high mobility in a nutshell?The issue is not that it can 1v1

The issue is that while its 1v1'ing its not very subjective to any kind of retaliation other than on hit procs such as retaliation and auras both of which are extremely rare among the professions. Retaliations being limited to mostly guardian and auras like shocking aura being limited to only tempest and base ele for the most part.People dont mind you having lots of evades or a modest amount of stealth what people do mind is not having enough common tools spread throughout the game to combat it. Literally nothing except shocking aura stops that style of play for any decent amount of time and only should the thief choose to strike the aura buffed target.If a build does not allow for others to retaliate reasonably during a moment of down time then that build needs to be adjusted its simple.

No one cares if you get the power to 1v1 people care if they don't ever have a proper turn to fight you back though.

My issue is that when a thief build is buffed into a spot where its somewhat a viable 1v1 build without relying on one shot cheap mechanics its deemed OP because it constantly evades. How else would it sustain long enough in the fight if evades are its main defensive mechanic, of course it would have to evade enough to sustain itself in a fight to win it.So if a thieves evades are to op because they can allow the thief to stay in the fight long enough(doesn't have passive sustain/hp or invulnerability) than how will a thief sustain itself in the fight long enough to win? They can't have a burst buff to shorten ttk so they wouldnt need sustain cuz the community will cry, they already cry about them disengaging all the time due to low sustain so.... and now being g able to evade long enough to sustain the fight is OP lmao it's seriously halarious. Like I said can't wait to see where thief's at in a yr. Not being able to combat it is BS as I'm not a amazing player myself yet I've had zero issues taking down staff thieves in every rank game I've played. There was a few that took a while to down so I left them but they weren't a big threat to me yet I can face half the other classes that take a while to down as well but can burst u in secs with far more deeps like warrior,holo,slb etc and on top the DD has one burst rotation so it's easy to know what its gonna do,other classes have many but because it's a thief build when community gets all in arms.Good stuff!

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@rowdy.5107 said:As a D/D SB condi thief. I have found that using SB #2 completely WRECKS staff thief. Once I realized this.. I haven't lost to a staff thief yet.

uve done somthing many fail to do. Most of this community's spends more time posting nerf threads than learning to fight builds that challenge theirs. God for bid a build poses a challenge to theirs.

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@rowdy.5107 said:As a D/D SB condi thief. I have found that using SB #2 completely WRECKS staff thief. Once I realized this.. I haven't lost to a staff thief yet.

uve done somthing many fail to do. Most of this community's spends more time posting nerf threads than learning to fight builds that challenge theirs. God for bid a build poses a challenge to theirs.

I just don't get why so many people cry about builds in this game. If there is a class somebody cant beat... its up to THEM to find a way to beat it.. its not Anets job to nerf stuff so lazy people can be happy.I was having such a hard time with staff thiefs. I couldn't figure out how to kill them. So I started trying different strategies. When I started using SB #2 it was catching the staff thief almost every single time. The dodges didn't matter. Started killing them every single time. Then I started using SB#2 against S/D thieves and it worked just as well.No need to nerf anything. These people need to learn to ADAPT because there is always something to counter something.

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@foste.3098 said:@Killthehealersffs.8940 @Psycoprophet.8107staff/staff daredevil is op in the sense that it warps the game around it since only particular builds can deal with it.But i am 100% against nerfing staff to the point of un-play ability, which seams like it will be the case, just because 1 degenerate build poped up and is abusing the on swap trait and sigils to bunker points. Daredevil was never meant to be a bunker but a bruiser, there is a big difference there.

i don't see the problem with a build being extremely defensive to keep a node. this is what conquest is about. as for thief, evades is just the only way you can do it, but people seem to hate everything they can't hit.

as for the on swap stuff, you're wrong. caed (i think) once polarized a double s/d build back in the times of dhumfire necro and spirit ranger with the same ini on weapon swap trait. as usual, it got nerfed because people in the history of gw2 have always complained about evades.

if thief evades and stealth keep getting nerfed, how about giving thief an actual build that doesn't rely on them?

This^ its halarious to me that the community spouts op on any thief build that has a chance at 1v1'ing than turns around and complains about thieves always disengaging during fights and how it's unfair. So according to the community thief shouldn't be able to hold its ground because of the mobility it has but at the same time shouldn't be able to have the mobility to constantly disengage due to not being able to hold it's ground lol its beyond funny. The staff/staff build dps isnt near what most dps builds do like if DA or CS was opted for instead of acro. Most other high deeps builds on other classes do more to. So staff/staff is basically a stall build that uses timed evades to sustain due to EVADES being it's way of sustain and its OP? So a warrior or any classes using their multiple passive and active sustain options while having high bursts is ok but a thief that spams evades cuz it's how it lives is OP? Why is any thief build that can somewhat stand its ground op? And why is it OP if thief has mobility if it doesn't have the ability to hold its ground ie disengage? So is thief supposed to be weak 1v1 and have low sustain/hp with just ok disengage potential? Sounds like a viable class to me lol. I hope I'm wrong but I can see the thief class as a whole being basically erased by these new devs with the help of the vocal gw2 community that has little care to the long term health of the game and only want their preferred classes to be in great spots while being barely contested by others, been this way for a long time now.

So you want to be necormancer with high mobility in a nutshell?The issue is not that it can 1v1

The issue is that while its 1v1'ing its not very subjective to any kind of retaliation other than on hit procs such as retaliation and auras both of which are extremely rare among the professions. Retaliations being limited to mostly guardian and auras like shocking aura being limited to only tempest and base ele for the most part.People dont mind you having lots of evades or a modest amount of stealth what people do mind is not having enough common tools spread throughout the game to combat it. Literally nothing except shocking aura stops that style of play for any decent amount of time and only should the thief choose to strike the aura buffed target.If a build does not allow for others to retaliate reasonably during a moment of down time then that build needs to be adjusted its simple.

No one cares if you get the power to 1v1 people care if they don't ever have a proper turn to fight you back though.

My issue is that when a thief build is buffed into a spot where its somewhat a viable 1v1 build without relying on one shot cheap mechanics its deemed OP because it constantly evades. How else would it sustain long enough in the fight if evades are its main defensive mechanic, of course it would have to evade enough to sustain itself in a fight to win it.I wouldnt really say staff was buffed though that staff bug has been there for a long time and people just didnt abuse it very bluntly. Its not until it was heavily abused to chain evades for long periods did it become a problem.I cant recall any buffs to staff or daredevil that made a super significant change to make it 1v1 viable. As far as i know its just as viable as its always been. Lastly its we have to remember the game is not only balanced around 1v1. I even forget this from time to time myself.

Daredevil will still have plenty of evades to sustain itself for an extended period of time. Will you be able to do it for extremely long periods of time without the staff 3 jump fix? No. Will you have bigger gaps between your evades? Yes. Overall not that much is changing staff dodge will still be a viable build but it wont be as 1 sided as it is now.Like i said if there were more tools that could counter such an evasive style of play across the game in general no one would likely minded it. But evasive play styles are a big topic right now considering

So if a thieves evades are to op because they can allow the thief to stay in the fight long enough(doesn't have passive sustain/hp or invulnerability) than how will a thief sustain itself in the fight long enough to win? They can't have a burst buff to shorten ttk so they wouldnt need sustain cuz the community will cry, they already cry about them disengaging all the time due to low sustain so.... and now being g able to evade long enough to sustain the fight is OP lmao it's seriously halarious. Like I said can't wait to see where thief's at in a yr. Not being g able to combat it is BS as I'm not a amazing player myself yet I've had zero issues taking down staff thieves in every rank game I've played. There was a few that took a while to down so I left them but they weren't a big threat to me yet I can face half the other classes that take a while to down as well but can burst u in secs with far more deeps like warrior,holo,slb etc and on top the DD has one burst rotation so it's easy to know what its gonna do,other classes have many but because it's a thief build when community gets all in arms.Good stuff!

Why do you assume the evades should last you until "you win" that in itself is not a healthy way of thinking how the evades should be balanced.The evades should last you long enough to give you a chance to win with the tools you have at hand (your weapon skills combined with your utilities and mind tactics). The evades should not last you in-defiantly until you do win just because if i fight you long enough i should win.

Ranger gs auto had an evade tied to its final strike and people would intentionally try to strike nothing with it so to proc the evade multiple times (2-3 times in a row) which was surely not the intentional use of the skill originally, it was fixed to not reward abusive un intentional behavior. I dont see why fixing the jump +3 on dd staff should not get the same treatment obviously the skill was never intended to be used like that. and using it in such away makes it far more powerful of a tool than what it really was designed to be.

I agree some of these other classes have too much damage and or too much defense to go along with that damage and hopefully they will be getting the shorter end of the stick than thief when the nerfs start hitting.

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@ZDragon.3046 said:

@foste.3098 said:@Killthehealersffs.8940 @Psycoprophet.8107staff/staff daredevil is op in the sense that it warps the game around it since only particular builds can deal with it.But i am 100% against nerfing staff to the point of un-play ability, which seams like it will be the case, just because 1 degenerate build poped up and is abusing the on swap trait and sigils to bunker points. Daredevil was never meant to be a bunker but a bruiser, there is a big difference there.

i don't see the problem with a build being extremely defensive to keep a node. this is what conquest is about. as for thief, evades is just the only way you can do it, but people seem to hate everything they can't hit.

as for the on swap stuff, you're wrong. caed (i think) once polarized a double s/d build back in the times of dhumfire necro and spirit ranger with the same ini on weapon swap trait. as usual, it got nerfed because people in the history of gw2 have always complained about evades.

if thief evades and stealth keep getting nerfed, how about giving thief an actual build that doesn't rely on them?

This^ its halarious to me that the community spouts op on any thief build that has a chance at 1v1'ing than turns around and complains about thieves always disengaging during fights and how it's unfair. So according to the community thief shouldn't be able to hold its ground because of the mobility it has but at the same time shouldn't be able to have the mobility to constantly disengage due to not being able to hold it's ground lol its beyond funny. The staff/staff build dps isnt near what most dps builds do like if DA or CS was opted for instead of acro. Most other high deeps builds on other classes do more to. So staff/staff is basically a stall build that uses timed evades to sustain due to EVADES being it's way of sustain and its OP? So a warrior or any classes using their multiple passive and active sustain options while having high bursts is ok but a thief that spams evades cuz it's how it lives is OP? Why is any thief build that can somewhat stand its ground op? And why is it OP if thief has mobility if it doesn't have the ability to hold its ground ie disengage? So is thief supposed to be weak 1v1 and have low sustain/hp with just ok disengage potential? Sounds like a viable class to me lol. I hope I'm wrong but I can see the thief class as a whole being basically erased by these new devs with the help of the vocal gw2 community that has little care to the long term health of the game and only want their preferred classes to be in great spots while being barely contested by others, been this way for a long time now.

So you want to be necormancer with high mobility in a nutshell?The issue is not that it can 1v1

The issue is that while its 1v1'ing its not very subjective to any kind of retaliation other than on hit procs such as retaliation and auras both of which are extremely rare among the professions. Retaliations being limited to mostly guardian and auras like shocking aura being limited to only tempest and base ele for the most part.People dont mind you having lots of evades or a modest amount of stealth what people do mind is not having enough common tools spread throughout the game to combat it. Literally nothing except shocking aura stops that style of play for any decent amount of time and only should the thief choose to strike the aura buffed target.If a build does not allow for others to retaliate reasonably during a moment of down time then that build needs to be adjusted its simple.

No one cares if you get the power to 1v1 people care if they don't ever have a proper turn to fight you back though.

My issue is that when a thief build is buffed into a spot where its somewhat a viable 1v1 build without relying on one shot cheap mechanics its deemed OP because it constantly evades. How else would it sustain long enough in the fight if evades are its main defensive mechanic, of course it would have to evade enough to sustain itself in a fight to win it.I wouldnt really say staff was buffed though that staff bug has been there for a long time and people just didnt abuse it very bluntly. Its not until it was heavily abused to chain evades for long periods did it become a problem.I cant recall any buffs to staff or daredevil that made a super significant change to make it 1v1 viable. As far as i know its just as viable as its always been. Lastly its we have to remember the game is not only balanced around 1v1. I even forget this from time to time myself.

Daredevil will still have plenty of evades to sustain itself for an extended period of time. Will you be able to do it for extremely long periods of time without the staff 3 jump fix? No. Will you have bigger gaps between your evades? Yes. Overall not that much is changing staff dodge will still be a viable build but it wont be as 1 sided as it is now.Like i said if there were more tools that could counter such an evasive style of play across the game in general no one would likely minded it. But evasive play styles are a big topic right now considering

So if a thieves evades are to op because they can allow the thief to stay in the fight long enough(doesn't have passive sustain/hp or invulnerability) than how will a thief sustain itself in the fight long enough to win? They can't have a burst buff to shorten ttk so they wouldnt need sustain cuz the community will cry, they already cry about them disengaging all the time due to low sustain so.... and now being g able to evade long enough to sustain the fight is OP lmao it's seriously halarious. Like I said can't wait to see where thief's at in a yr. Not being g able to combat it is BS as I'm not a amazing player myself yet I've had zero issues taking down staff thieves in every rank game I've played. There was a few that took a while to down so I left them but they weren't a big threat to me yet I can face half the other classes that take a while to down as well but can burst u in secs with far more deeps like warrior,holo,slb etc and on top the DD has one burst rotation so it's easy to know what its gonna do,other classes have many but because it's a thief build when community gets all in arms.Good stuff!

Why do you assume the evades should last you until
"you win"
that in itself is not a healthy way of thinking how the evades should be balanced.The evades should last you long enough to give you a chance to win with the tools you have at hand (your weapon skills combined with your utilities and mind tactics). The evades should not last you in-defiantly until you do win just because if i fight you long enough i should win.

Ranger gs auto had an evade tied to its final strike and people would intentionally try to strike nothing with it so to proc the evade multiple times (2-3 times in a row) which was surely not the intentional use of the skill originally, it was fixed to not reward abusive un intentional behavior. I dont see why fixing the jump +3 on dd staff should not get the same treatment obviously the skill was never intended to be used like that. and using it in such away makes it far more powerful of a tool than what it really was designed to be.

I agree some of these other classes have too much damage and or too much defense to go along with that damage and hopefully they will be getting the shorter end of the stick than thief when the nerfs start hitting.

DD traitline to be more specific was a bit of a buff to staff builds overshadowed by the silly swipe nerf in my eyes at least

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@ZDragon.3046 said:

@foste.3098 said:@Killthehealersffs.8940 @Psycoprophet.8107staff/staff daredevil is op in the sense that it warps the game around it since only particular builds can deal with it.But i am 100% against nerfing staff to the point of un-play ability, which seams like it will be the case, just because 1 degenerate build poped up and is abusing the on swap trait and sigils to bunker points. Daredevil was never meant to be a bunker but a bruiser, there is a big difference there.

i don't see the problem with a build being extremely defensive to keep a node. this is what conquest is about. as for thief, evades is just the only way you can do it, but people seem to hate everything they can't hit.

as for the on swap stuff, you're wrong. caed (i think) once polarized a double s/d build back in the times of dhumfire necro and spirit ranger with the same ini on weapon swap trait. as usual, it got nerfed because people in the history of gw2 have always complained about evades.

if thief evades and stealth keep getting nerfed, how about giving thief an actual build that doesn't rely on them?

This^ its halarious to me that the community spouts op on any thief build that has a chance at 1v1'ing than turns around and complains about thieves always disengaging during fights and how it's unfair. So according to the community thief shouldn't be able to hold its ground because of the mobility it has but at the same time shouldn't be able to have the mobility to constantly disengage due to not being able to hold it's ground lol its beyond funny. The staff/staff build dps isnt near what most dps builds do like if DA or CS was opted for instead of acro. Most other high deeps builds on other classes do more to. So staff/staff is basically a stall build that uses timed evades to sustain due to EVADES being it's way of sustain and its OP? So a warrior or any classes using their multiple passive and active sustain options while having high bursts is ok but a thief that spams evades cuz it's how it lives is OP? Why is any thief build that can somewhat stand its ground op? And why is it OP if thief has mobility if it doesn't have the ability to hold its ground ie disengage? So is thief supposed to be weak 1v1 and have low sustain/hp with just ok disengage potential? Sounds like a viable class to me lol. I hope I'm wrong but I can see the thief class as a whole being basically erased by these new devs with the help of the vocal gw2 community that has little care to the long term health of the game and only want their preferred classes to be in great spots while being barely contested by others, been this way for a long time now.

So you want to be necormancer with high mobility in a nutshell?The issue is not that it can 1v1

The issue is that while its 1v1'ing its not very subjective to any kind of retaliation other than on hit procs such as retaliation and auras both of which are extremely rare among the professions. Retaliations being limited to mostly guardian and auras like shocking aura being limited to only tempest and base ele for the most part.People dont mind you having lots of evades or a modest amount of stealth what people do mind is not having enough common tools spread throughout the game to combat it. Literally nothing except shocking aura stops that style of play for any decent amount of time and only should the thief choose to strike the aura buffed target.If a build does not allow for others to retaliate reasonably during a moment of down time then that build needs to be adjusted its simple.

No one cares if you get the power to 1v1 people care if they don't ever have a proper turn to fight you back though.

My issue is that when a thief build is buffed into a spot where its somewhat a viable 1v1 build without relying on one shot cheap mechanics its deemed OP because it constantly evades. How else would it sustain long enough in the fight if evades are its main defensive mechanic, of course it would have to evade enough to sustain itself in a fight to win it.I wouldnt really say staff was buffed though that staff bug has been there for a long time and people just didnt abuse it very bluntly. Its not until it was heavily abused to chain evades for long periods did it become a problem.I cant recall any buffs to staff or daredevil that made a super significant change to make it 1v1 viable. As far as i know its just as viable as its always been. Lastly its we have to remember the game is not only balanced around 1v1. I even forget this from time to time myself.

Daredevil will still have plenty of evades to sustain itself for an extended period of time. Will you be able to do it for extremely long periods of time without the staff 3 jump fix? No. Will you have bigger gaps between your evades? Yes. Overall not that much is changing staff dodge will still be a viable build but it wont be as 1 sided as it is now.Like i said if there were more tools that could counter such an evasive style of play across the game in general no one would likely minded it. But evasive play styles are a big topic right now considering

So if a thieves evades are to op because they can allow the thief to stay in the fight long enough(doesn't have passive sustain/hp or invulnerability) than how will a thief sustain itself in the fight long enough to win? They can't have a burst buff to shorten ttk so they wouldnt need sustain cuz the community will cry, they already cry about them disengaging all the time due to low sustain so.... and now being g able to evade long enough to sustain the fight is OP lmao it's seriously halarious. Like I said can't wait to see where thief's at in a yr. Not being g able to combat it is BS as I'm not a amazing player myself yet I've had zero issues taking down staff thieves in every rank game I've played. There was a few that took a while to down so I left them but they weren't a big threat to me yet I can face half the other classes that take a while to down as well but can burst u in secs with far more deeps like warrior,holo,slb etc and on top the DD has one burst rotation so it's easy to know what its gonna do,other classes have many but because it's a thief build when community gets all in arms.Good stuff!

Why do you assume the evades should last you until
"you win"
that in itself is not a healthy way of thinking how the evades should be balanced.The evades should last you long enough to give you a chance to win with the tools you have at hand (your weapon skills combined with your utilities and mind tactics). The evades should not last you in-defiantly until you do win just because if i fight you long enough i should win.

Ranger gs auto had an evade tied to its final strike and people would intentionally try to strike nothing with it so to proc the evade multiple times (2-3 times in a row) which was surely not the intentional use of the skill originally, it was fixed to not reward abusive un intentional behavior. I dont see why fixing the jump +3 on dd staff should not get the same treatment obviously the skill was never intended to be used like that. and using it in such away makes it far more powerful of a tool than what it really was designed to be.

I agree some of these other classes have too much damage and or too much defense to go along with that damage and hopefully they will be getting the shorter end of the stick than thief when the nerfs start hitting.

But they don't. Pls don't come to me with the infinite dodge hyperbole. Might as well say thief has infinite ini and endurance which it most defenitly doesn't. They cannot evade for ever for one and second of all if evading is their only real sustain method why shouldn't they be able to long enough to have a chance at winning a fight? Without thief's increased evade uptime it be free food for classes with higher bursts, hp, armor, multiple blocks and invulnerability as a thief can't take a hit without losing most of its hp. The community cries about dps power creep and low ttk times, try having thief's sustain on top.

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@ZDragon.3046 said:

@foste.3098 said:@Killthehealersffs.8940 @Psycoprophet.8107staff/staff daredevil is op in the sense that it warps the game around it since only particular builds can deal with it.But i am 100% against nerfing staff to the point of un-play ability, which seams like it will be the case, just because 1 degenerate build poped up and is abusing the on swap trait and sigils to bunker points. Daredevil was never meant to be a bunker but a bruiser, there is a big difference there.

i don't see the problem with a build being extremely defensive to keep a node. this is what conquest is about. as for thief, evades is just the only way you can do it, but people seem to hate everything they can't hit.

as for the on swap stuff, you're wrong. caed (i think) once polarized a double s/d build back in the times of dhumfire necro and spirit ranger with the same ini on weapon swap trait. as usual, it got nerfed because people in the history of gw2 have always complained about evades.

if thief evades and stealth keep getting nerfed, how about giving thief an actual build that doesn't rely on them?

This^ its halarious to me that the community spouts op on any thief build that has a chance at 1v1'ing than turns around and complains about thieves always disengaging during fights and how it's unfair. So according to the community thief shouldn't be able to hold its ground because of the mobility it has but at the same time shouldn't be able to have the mobility to constantly disengage due to not being able to hold it's ground lol its beyond funny. The staff/staff build dps isnt near what most dps builds do like if DA or CS was opted for instead of acro. Most other high deeps builds on other classes do more to. So staff/staff is basically a stall build that uses timed evades to sustain due to EVADES being it's way of sustain and its OP? So a warrior or any classes using their multiple passive and active sustain options while having high bursts is ok but a thief that spams evades cuz it's how it lives is OP? Why is any thief build that can somewhat stand its ground op? And why is it OP if thief has mobility if it doesn't have the ability to hold its ground ie disengage? So is thief supposed to be weak 1v1 and have low sustain/hp with just ok disengage potential? Sounds like a viable class to me lol. I hope I'm wrong but I can see the thief class as a whole being basically erased by these new devs with the help of the vocal gw2 community that has little care to the long term health of the game and only want their preferred classes to be in great spots while being barely contested by others, been this way for a long time now.

So you want to be necormancer with high mobility in a nutshell?The issue is not that it can 1v1

The issue is that while its 1v1'ing its not very subjective to any kind of retaliation other than on hit procs such as retaliation and auras both of which are extremely rare among the professions. Retaliations being limited to mostly guardian and auras like shocking aura being limited to only tempest and base ele for the most part.People dont mind you having lots of evades or a modest amount of stealth what people do mind is not having enough common tools spread throughout the game to combat it. Literally nothing except shocking aura stops that style of play for any decent amount of time and only should the thief choose to strike the aura buffed target.If a build does not allow for others to retaliate reasonably during a moment of down time then that build needs to be adjusted its simple.

No one cares if you get the power to 1v1 people care if they don't ever have a proper turn to fight you back though.

My issue is that when a thief build is buffed into a spot where its somewhat a viable 1v1 build without relying on one shot cheap mechanics its deemed OP because it constantly evades. How else would it sustain long enough in the fight if evades are its main defensive mechanic, of course it would have to evade enough to sustain itself in a fight to win it.I wouldnt really say staff was buffed though that staff bug has been there for a long time and people just didnt abuse it very bluntly. Its not until it was heavily abused to chain evades for long periods did it become a problem.I cant recall any buffs to staff or daredevil that made a super significant change to make it 1v1 viable. As far as i know its just as viable as its always been. Lastly its we have to remember the game is not only balanced around 1v1. I even forget this from time to time myself.

Daredevil will still have plenty of evades to sustain itself for an extended period of time. Will you be able to do it for extremely long periods of time without the staff 3 jump fix? No. Will you have bigger gaps between your evades? Yes. Overall not that much is changing staff dodge will still be a viable build but it wont be as 1 sided as it is now.Like i said if there were more tools that could counter such an evasive style of play across the game in general no one would likely minded it. But evasive play styles are a big topic right now considering

So if a thieves evades are to op because they can allow the thief to stay in the fight long enough(doesn't have passive sustain/hp or invulnerability) than how will a thief sustain itself in the fight long enough to win? They can't have a burst buff to shorten ttk so they wouldnt need sustain cuz the community will cry, they already cry about them disengaging all the time due to low sustain so.... and now being g able to evade long enough to sustain the fight is OP lmao it's seriously halarious. Like I said can't wait to see where thief's at in a yr. Not being g able to combat it is BS as I'm not a amazing player myself yet I've had zero issues taking down staff thieves in every rank game I've played. There was a few that took a while to down so I left them but they weren't a big threat to me yet I can face half the other classes that take a while to down as well but can burst u in secs with far more deeps like warrior,holo,slb etc and on top the DD has one burst rotation so it's easy to know what its gonna do,other classes have many but because it's a thief build when community gets all in arms.Good stuff!

Why do you assume the evades should last you until
"you win"
that in itself is not a healthy way of thinking how the evades should be balanced.The evades should last you long enough to give you a chance to win with the tools you have at hand (your weapon skills combined with your utilities and mind tactics). The evades should not last you in-defiantly until you do win just because if i fight you long enough i should win.

Ranger gs auto had an evade tied to its final strike and people would intentionally try to strike nothing with it so to proc the evade multiple times (2-3 times in a row) which was surely not the intentional use of the skill originally, it was fixed to not reward abusive un intentional behavior. I dont see why fixing the jump +3 on dd staff should not get the same treatment obviously the skill was never intended to be used like that. and using it in such away makes it far more powerful of a tool than what it really was designed to be.

I agree some of these other classes have too much damage and or too much defense to go along with that damage and hopefully they will be getting the shorter end of the stick than thief when the nerfs start hitting.

U think other classes will get shorter end of stick come nerf time? I bet thief and mesmer will end up with shorter sticks in the end but we'll seeAlso I agree with the staff jump bug just not the ini increase.With that said what takes more skill? Just pressing staff 3 or staff three with a jump right after? I woulda removed the passive evade from the skill and made it so u had to combo it with jump to get the evade frame and if u dont than skill is just to gain distance. This game needs skillfull play implemented into skills and rotations not removed, it's going in the opposite direction of what the community spouts off that it wants. Maybe add combo bonuses for skillful rotations and make combo fields worth something again.

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@foste.3098 said:@Killthehealersffs.8940 @Psycoprophet.8107staff/staff daredevil is op in the sense that it warps the game around it since only particular builds can deal with it.But i am 100% against nerfing staff to the point of un-play ability, which seams like it will be the case, just because 1 degenerate build poped up and is abusing the on swap trait and sigils to bunker points. Daredevil was never meant to be a bunker but a bruiser, there is a big difference there.

i don't see the problem with a build being extremely defensive to keep a node. this is what conquest is about. as for thief, evades is just the only way you can do it, but people seem to hate everything they can't hit.

as for the on swap stuff, you're wrong. caed (i think) once polarized a double s/d build back in the times of dhumfire necro and spirit ranger with the same ini on weapon swap trait. as usual, it got nerfed because people in the history of gw2 have always complained about evades.

if thief evades and stealth keep getting nerfed, how about giving thief an actual build that doesn't rely on them?

This^ its halarious to me that the community spouts op on any thief build that has a chance at 1v1'ing than turns around and complains about thieves always disengaging during fights and how it's unfair. So according to the community thief shouldn't be able to hold its ground because of the mobility it has but at the same time shouldn't be able to have the mobility to constantly disengage due to not being able to hold it's ground lol its beyond funny. The staff/staff build dps isnt near what most dps builds do like if DA or CS was opted for instead of acro. Most other high deeps builds on other classes do more to. So staff/staff is basically a stall build that uses timed evades to sustain due to EVADES being it's way of sustain and its OP? So a warrior or any classes using their multiple passive and active sustain options while having high bursts is ok but a thief that spams evades cuz it's how it lives is OP? Why is any thief build that can somewhat stand its ground op? And why is it OP if thief has mobility if it doesn't have the ability to hold its ground ie disengage? So is thief supposed to be weak 1v1 and have low sustain/hp with just ok disengage potential? Sounds like a viable class to me lol. I hope I'm wrong but I can see the thief class as a whole being basically erased by these new devs with the help of the vocal gw2 community that has little care to the long term health of the game and only want their preferred classes to be in great spots while being barely contested by others, been this way for a long time now.

So you want to be necormancer with high mobility in a nutshell?The issue is not that it can 1v1

The issue is that while its 1v1'ing its not very subjective to any kind of retaliation other than on hit procs such as retaliation and auras both of which are extremely rare among the professions. Retaliations being limited to mostly guardian and auras like shocking aura being limited to only tempest and base ele for the most part.People dont mind you having lots of evades or a modest amount of stealth what people do mind is not having enough common tools spread throughout the game to combat it. Literally nothing except shocking aura stops that style of play for any decent amount of time and only should the thief choose to strike the aura buffed target.If a build does not allow for others to retaliate reasonably during a moment of down time then that build needs to be adjusted its simple.

No one cares if you get the power to 1v1 people care if they don't ever have a proper turn to fight you back though.

My issue is that when a thief build is buffed into a spot where its somewhat a viable 1v1 build without relying on one shot cheap mechanics its deemed OP because it constantly evades. How else would it sustain long enough in the fight if evades are its main defensive mechanic, of course it would have to evade enough to sustain itself in a fight to win it.I wouldnt really say staff was buffed though that staff bug has been there for a long time and people just didnt abuse it very bluntly. Its not until it was heavily abused to chain evades for long periods did it become a problem.I cant recall any buffs to staff or daredevil that made a super significant change to make it 1v1 viable. As far as i know its just as viable as its always been. Lastly its we have to remember the game is not only balanced around 1v1. I even forget this from time to time myself.

Daredevil will still have plenty of evades to sustain itself for an extended period of time. Will you be able to do it for extremely long periods of time without the staff 3 jump fix? No. Will you have bigger gaps between your evades? Yes. Overall not that much is changing staff dodge will still be a viable build but it wont be as 1 sided as it is now.Like i said if there were more tools that could counter such an evasive style of play across the game in general no one would likely minded it. But evasive play styles are a big topic right now considering

So if a thieves evades are to op because they can allow the thief to stay in the fight long enough(doesn't have passive sustain/hp or invulnerability) than how will a thief sustain itself in the fight long enough to win? They can't have a burst buff to shorten ttk so they wouldnt need sustain cuz the community will cry, they already cry about them disengaging all the time due to low sustain so.... and now being g able to evade long enough to sustain the fight is OP lmao it's seriously halarious. Like I said can't wait to see where thief's at in a yr. Not being g able to combat it is BS as I'm not a amazing player myself yet I've had zero issues taking down staff thieves in every rank game I've played. There was a few that took a while to down so I left them but they weren't a big threat to me yet I can face half the other classes that take a while to down as well but can burst u in secs with far more deeps like warrior,holo,slb etc and on top the DD has one burst rotation so it's easy to know what its gonna do,other classes have many but because it's a thief build when community gets all in arms.Good stuff!

Why do you assume the evades should last you until
"you win"
that in itself is not a healthy way of thinking how the evades should be balanced.The evades should last you long enough to give you a chance to win with the tools you have at hand (your weapon skills combined with your utilities and mind tactics). The evades should not last you in-defiantly until you do win just because if i fight you long enough i should win.

Ranger gs auto had an evade tied to its final strike and people would intentionally try to strike nothing with it so to proc the evade multiple times (2-3 times in a row) which was surely not the intentional use of the skill originally, it was fixed to not reward abusive un intentional behavior. I dont see why fixing the jump +3 on dd staff should not get the same treatment obviously the skill was never intended to be used like that. and using it in such away makes it far more powerful of a tool than what it really was designed to be.

I agree some of these other classes have too much damage and or too much defense to go along with that damage and hopefully they will be getting the shorter end of the stick than thief when the nerfs start hitting.

But they don't. Pls don't come to me with the infinite dodge hyperbole. Might as well say thief has infinite ini and endurance which it most defenitly doesn't. They cannot evade for ever for one and second of all if evading is their only real sustain method why shouldn't they be able to long enough to have a chance at winning a fight?

You know what i mean. ITs not literally infinite but its enough to be considered such if you last for 2-3 minutes on dodges then no that should not be a thing lastly.This should mostly be a bug fix if your build hinges on a bug or unintentional use of a skill then thats not a good thing for your class or for anyone else.I wont go back and forth with you over and over again.If you think the amount of evade access is across the dodges, endurance restoration traits and skills, and weapon skills then i dont know what to tell you. ive seen thieves and 1v1 people and win with far less than what the staff / dodge build offers so lets not even go there.

Once again its also about the fact that that build with that bug has very limited counter-play. To counter something you need to be able to combat it. You cant effectively combat someone who is just dodging for the majority of a fight. Similarly You cannot combat someone who is invisible for the majority of a fight. When i say majority of a fight i mean 75% or more of the fights total time. With evades (which also do damage) specifically, because there are no un-dodgeable damage mechanics in pvp expect people to call out something should it get out of hand.

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@ZDragon.3046 said:

@foste.3098 said:@Killthehealersffs.8940 @Psycoprophet.8107staff/staff daredevil is op in the sense that it warps the game around it since only particular builds can deal with it.But i am 100% against nerfing staff to the point of un-play ability, which seams like it will be the case, just because 1 degenerate build poped up and is abusing the on swap trait and sigils to bunker points. Daredevil was never meant to be a bunker but a bruiser, there is a big difference there.

i don't see the problem with a build being extremely defensive to keep a node. this is what conquest is about. as for thief, evades is just the only way you can do it, but people seem to hate everything they can't hit.

as for the on swap stuff, you're wrong. caed (i think) once polarized a double s/d build back in the times of dhumfire necro and spirit ranger with the same ini on weapon swap trait. as usual, it got nerfed because people in the history of gw2 have always complained about evades.

if thief evades and stealth keep getting nerfed, how about giving thief an actual build that doesn't rely on them?

This^ its halarious to me that the community spouts op on any thief build that has a chance at 1v1'ing than turns around and complains about thieves always disengaging during fights and how it's unfair. So according to the community thief shouldn't be able to hold its ground because of the mobility it has but at the same time shouldn't be able to have the mobility to constantly disengage due to not being able to hold it's ground lol its beyond funny. The staff/staff build dps isnt near what most dps builds do like if DA or CS was opted for instead of acro. Most other high deeps builds on other classes do more to. So staff/staff is basically a stall build that uses timed evades to sustain due to EVADES being it's way of sustain and its OP? So a warrior or any classes using their multiple passive and active sustain options while having high bursts is ok but a thief that spams evades cuz it's how it lives is OP? Why is any thief build that can somewhat stand its ground op? And why is it OP if thief has mobility if it doesn't have the ability to hold its ground ie disengage? So is thief supposed to be weak 1v1 and have low sustain/hp with just ok disengage potential? Sounds like a viable class to me lol. I hope I'm wrong but I can see the thief class as a whole being basically erased by these new devs with the help of the vocal gw2 community that has little care to the long term health of the game and only want their preferred classes to be in great spots while being barely contested by others, been this way for a long time now.

So you want to be necormancer with high mobility in a nutshell?The issue is not that it can 1v1

The issue is that while its 1v1'ing its not very subjective to any kind of retaliation other than on hit procs such as retaliation and auras both of which are extremely rare among the professions. Retaliations being limited to mostly guardian and auras like shocking aura being limited to only tempest and base ele for the most part.People dont mind you having lots of evades or a modest amount of stealth what people do mind is not having enough common tools spread throughout the game to combat it. Literally nothing except shocking aura stops that style of play for any decent amount of time and only should the thief choose to strike the aura buffed target.If a build does not allow for others to retaliate reasonably during a moment of down time then that build needs to be adjusted its simple.

No one cares if you get the power to 1v1 people care if they don't ever have a proper turn to fight you back though.

My issue is that when a thief build is buffed into a spot where its somewhat a viable 1v1 build without relying on one shot cheap mechanics its deemed OP because it constantly evades. How else would it sustain long enough in the fight if evades are its main defensive mechanic, of course it would have to evade enough to sustain itself in a fight to win it.I wouldnt really say staff was buffed though that staff bug has been there for a long time and people just didnt abuse it very bluntly. Its not until it was heavily abused to chain evades for long periods did it become a problem.I cant recall any buffs to staff or daredevil that made a super significant change to make it 1v1 viable. As far as i know its just as viable as its always been. Lastly its we have to remember the game is not only balanced around 1v1. I even forget this from time to time myself.

Daredevil will still have plenty of evades to sustain itself for an extended period of time. Will you be able to do it for extremely long periods of time without the staff 3 jump fix? No. Will you have bigger gaps between your evades? Yes. Overall not that much is changing staff dodge will still be a viable build but it wont be as 1 sided as it is now.Like i said if there were more tools that could counter such an evasive style of play across the game in general no one would likely minded it. But evasive play styles are a big topic right now considering

So if a thieves evades are to op because they can allow the thief to stay in the fight long enough(doesn't have passive sustain/hp or invulnerability) than how will a thief sustain itself in the fight long enough to win? They can't have a burst buff to shorten ttk so they wouldnt need sustain cuz the community will cry, they already cry about them disengaging all the time due to low sustain so.... and now being g able to evade long enough to sustain the fight is OP lmao it's seriously halarious. Like I said can't wait to see where thief's at in a yr. Not being g able to combat it is BS as I'm not a amazing player myself yet I've had zero issues taking down staff thieves in every rank game I've played. There was a few that took a while to down so I left them but they weren't a big threat to me yet I can face half the other classes that take a while to down as well but can burst u in secs with far more deeps like warrior,holo,slb etc and on top the DD has one burst rotation so it's easy to know what its gonna do,other classes have many but because it's a thief build when community gets all in arms.Good stuff!

Why do you assume the evades should last you until
"you win"
that in itself is not a healthy way of thinking how the evades should be balanced.The evades should last you long enough to give you a chance to win with the tools you have at hand (your weapon skills combined with your utilities and mind tactics). The evades should not last you in-defiantly until you do win just because if i fight you long enough i should win.

Ranger gs auto had an evade tied to its final strike and people would intentionally try to strike nothing with it so to proc the evade multiple times (2-3 times in a row) which was surely not the intentional use of the skill originally, it was fixed to not reward abusive un intentional behavior. I dont see why fixing the jump +3 on dd staff should not get the same treatment obviously the skill was never intended to be used like that. and using it in such away makes it far more powerful of a tool than what it really was designed to be.

I agree some of these other classes have too much damage and or too much defense to go along with that damage and hopefully they will be getting the shorter end of the stick than thief when the nerfs start hitting.

But they don't. Pls don't come to me with the infinite dodge hyperbole. Might as well say thief has infinite ini and endurance which it most defenitly doesn't. They cannot evade for ever for one and second of all if evading is their only real sustain method why shouldn't they be able to long enough to have a chance at winning a fight?

You know what i mean. ITs not literally infinite but its enough to be considered such if you last for 2-3 minutes on dodges then no that should not be a thing lastly.This should mostly be a bug fix if your build hinges on a bug or unintentional use of a skill then thats not a good thing for your class or for anyone else.I wont go back and forth with you over and over again.If you think the amount of evade access is across the dodges, endurance restoration traits and skills, and weapon skills then i dont know what to tell you. ive seen thieves and 1v1 people and win with far less than what the staff / dodge build offers so lets not even go there.

Once again its also about the fact that that build with that bug has very limited counter-play. To counter something you need to be able to combat it. You cant effectively combat someone who is just dodging for the majority of a fight. Similarly You cannot combat someone who is invisible for the majority of a fight. When i say majority of a fight i 0mean 75% or more of the fights total time. With evades (which also do damage) specifically, because there are no un-dodgeable damage mechanics in pvp expect people to call out something should it get out of hand.

U do realize with full ini supplemented with prepardness u can use st3 like 3 times than swap to get another 3 ini and by than u wait a sec to have enough for a fourth. That's all ur global resource gone for all skills. So a thief monkey bouncing using ini on vault is gonna be able to consistantly use the st3 jump bug only so often . It's not like u cam just sit and spam vault and st3 continually with some bounds in between for infinite evade. I'm gonna low ball peeps claims here and challenge anyone to post a vid of a staff/staff DD evading for 1 minute real time continually. I'd be interested in seeing it.

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@foste.3098 said:@Killthehealersffs.8940 @Psycoprophet.8107staff/staff daredevil is op in the sense that it warps the game around it since only particular builds can deal with it.But i am 100% against nerfing staff to the point of un-play ability, which seams like it will be the case, just because 1 degenerate build poped up and is abusing the on swap trait and sigils to bunker points. Daredevil was never meant to be a bunker but a bruiser, there is a big difference there.

i don't see the problem with a build being extremely defensive to keep a node. this is what conquest is about. as for thief, evades is just the only way you can do it, but people seem to hate everything they can't hit.

as for the on swap stuff, you're wrong. caed (i think) once polarized a double s/d build back in the times of dhumfire necro and spirit ranger with the same ini on weapon swap trait. as usual, it got nerfed because people in the history of gw2 have always complained about evades.

if thief evades and stealth keep getting nerfed, how about giving thief an actual build that doesn't rely on them?

This^ its halarious to me that the community spouts op on any thief build that has a chance at 1v1'ing than turns around and complains about thieves always disengaging during fights and how it's unfair. So according to the community thief shouldn't be able to hold its ground because of the mobility it has but at the same time shouldn't be able to have the mobility to constantly disengage due to not being able to hold it's ground lol its beyond funny. The staff/staff build dps isnt near what most dps builds do like if DA or CS was opted for instead of acro. Most other high deeps builds on other classes do more to. So staff/staff is basically a stall build that uses timed evades to sustain due to EVADES being it's way of sustain and its OP? So a warrior or any classes using their multiple passive and active sustain options while having high bursts is ok but a thief that spams evades cuz it's how it lives is OP? Why is any thief build that can somewhat stand its ground op? And why is it OP if thief has mobility if it doesn't have the ability to hold its ground ie disengage? So is thief supposed to be weak 1v1 and have low sustain/hp with just ok disengage potential? Sounds like a viable class to me lol. I hope I'm wrong but I can see the thief class as a whole being basically erased by these new devs with the help of the vocal gw2 community that has little care to the long term health of the game and only want their preferred classes to be in great spots while being barely contested by others, been this way for a long time now.

So you want to be necormancer with high mobility in a nutshell?The issue is not that it can 1v1

The issue is that while its 1v1'ing its not very subjective to any kind of retaliation other than on hit procs such as retaliation and auras both of which are extremely rare among the professions. Retaliations being limited to mostly guardian and auras like shocking aura being limited to only tempest and base ele for the most part.People dont mind you having lots of evades or a modest amount of stealth what people do mind is not having enough common tools spread throughout the game to combat it. Literally nothing except shocking aura stops that style of play for any decent amount of time and only should the thief choose to strike the aura buffed target.If a build does not allow for others to retaliate reasonably during a moment of down time then that build needs to be adjusted its simple.

No one cares if you get the power to 1v1 people care if they don't ever have a proper turn to fight you back though.

My issue is that when a thief build is buffed into a spot where its somewhat a viable 1v1 build without relying on one shot cheap mechanics its deemed OP because it constantly evades. How else would it sustain long enough in the fight if evades are its main defensive mechanic, of course it would have to evade enough to sustain itself in a fight to win it.I wouldnt really say staff was buffed though that staff bug has been there for a long time and people just didnt abuse it very bluntly. Its not until it was heavily abused to chain evades for long periods did it become a problem.I cant recall any buffs to staff or daredevil that made a super significant change to make it 1v1 viable. As far as i know its just as viable as its always been. Lastly its we have to remember the game is not only balanced around 1v1. I even forget this from time to time myself.

Daredevil will still have plenty of evades to sustain itself for an extended period of time. Will you be able to do it for extremely long periods of time without the staff 3 jump fix? No. Will you have bigger gaps between your evades? Yes. Overall not that much is changing staff dodge will still be a viable build but it wont be as 1 sided as it is now.Like i said if there were more tools that could counter such an evasive style of play across the game in general no one would likely minded it. But evasive play styles are a big topic right now considering

So if a thieves evades are to op because they can allow the thief to stay in the fight long enough(doesn't have passive sustain/hp or invulnerability) than how will a thief sustain itself in the fight long enough to win? They can't have a burst buff to shorten ttk so they wouldnt need sustain cuz the community will cry, they already cry about them disengaging all the time due to low sustain so.... and now being g able to evade long enough to sustain the fight is OP lmao it's seriously halarious. Like I said can't wait to see where thief's at in a yr. Not being g able to combat it is BS as I'm not a amazing player myself yet I've had zero issues taking down staff thieves in every rank game I've played. There was a few that took a while to down so I left them but they weren't a big threat to me yet I can face half the other classes that take a while to down as well but can burst u in secs with far more deeps like warrior,holo,slb etc and on top the DD has one burst rotation so it's easy to know what its gonna do,other classes have many but because it's a thief build when community gets all in arms.Good stuff!

Why do you assume the evades should last you until
"you win"
that in itself is not a healthy way of thinking how the evades should be balanced.The evades should last you long enough to give you a chance to win with the tools you have at hand (your weapon skills combined with your utilities and mind tactics). The evades should not last you in-defiantly until you do win just because if i fight you long enough i should win.

Ranger gs auto had an evade tied to its final strike and people would intentionally try to strike nothing with it so to proc the evade multiple times (2-3 times in a row) which was surely not the intentional use of the skill originally, it was fixed to not reward abusive un intentional behavior. I dont see why fixing the jump +3 on dd staff should not get the same treatment obviously the skill was never intended to be used like that. and using it in such away makes it far more powerful of a tool than what it really was designed to be.

I agree some of these other classes have too much damage and or too much defense to go along with that damage and hopefully they will be getting the shorter end of the stick than thief when the nerfs start hitting.

But they don't. Pls don't come to me with the infinite dodge hyperbole. Might as well say thief has infinite ini and endurance which it most defenitly doesn't. They cannot evade for ever for one and second of all if evading is their only real sustain method why shouldn't they be able to long enough to have a chance at winning a fight?

You know what i mean. ITs not literally infinite but its enough to be considered such if you last for 2-3 minutes on dodges then no that should not be a thing lastly.This should mostly be a bug fix if your build hinges on a bug or unintentional use of a skill then thats not a good thing for your class or for anyone else.I wont go back and forth with you over and over again.If you think the amount of evade access is across the dodges, endurance restoration traits and skills, and weapon skills then i dont know what to tell you. ive seen thieves and 1v1 people and win with far less than what the staff / dodge build offers so lets not even go there.

Once again its also about the fact that that build with that bug has very limited counter-play. To counter something you need to be able to combat it. You cant effectively combat someone who is just dodging for the majority of a fight. Similarly You cannot combat someone who is invisible for the majority of a fight. When i say majority of a fight i 0mean 75% or more of the fights total time. With evades (which also do damage) specifically, because there are no un-dodgeable damage mechanics in pvp expect people to call out something should it get out of hand.

U do realize with full ini supplemented with prepardness u can use st3 like 3 times than swap to get another 3 ini and by than u wait a sec to have enough for a fourth. That's all ur global resource gone for all skills. So a thief monkey bouncing using ini on vault is gonna be able to consistantly use the st3 jump bug only so often . It's not like u cam just sit and spam vault and st3 continually with some bounds in between for infinite evade. I'm gonna low ball peeps claims here and challenge anyone to post a vid of a staff/staff DD evading for 1 minute real time continually. I'd be interested in seeing it.

Just watch monthly vids and you see staff thieves evading the entire game long not just 1 minute

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@Koen.1327 said:

@foste.3098 said:@Killthehealersffs.8940 @Psycoprophet.8107staff/staff daredevil is op in the sense that it warps the game around it since only particular builds can deal with it.But i am 100% against nerfing staff to the point of un-play ability, which seams like it will be the case, just because 1 degenerate build poped up and is abusing the on swap trait and sigils to bunker points. Daredevil was never meant to be a bunker but a bruiser, there is a big difference there.

i don't see the problem with a build being extremely defensive to keep a node. this is what conquest is about. as for thief, evades is just the only way you can do it, but people seem to hate everything they can't hit.

as for the on swap stuff, you're wrong. caed (i think) once polarized a double s/d build back in the times of dhumfire necro and spirit ranger with the same ini on weapon swap trait. as usual, it got nerfed because people in the history of gw2 have always complained about evades.

if thief evades and stealth keep getting nerfed, how about giving thief an actual build that doesn't rely on them?

This^ its halarious to me that the community spouts op on any thief build that has a chance at 1v1'ing than turns around and complains about thieves always disengaging during fights and how it's unfair. So according to the community thief shouldn't be able to hold its ground because of the mobility it has but at the same time shouldn't be able to have the mobility to constantly disengage due to not being able to hold it's ground lol its beyond funny. The staff/staff build dps isnt near what most dps builds do like if DA or CS was opted for instead of acro. Most other high deeps builds on other classes do more to. So staff/staff is basically a stall build that uses timed evades to sustain due to EVADES being it's way of sustain and its OP? So a warrior or any classes using their multiple passive and active sustain options while having high bursts is ok but a thief that spams evades cuz it's how it lives is OP? Why is any thief build that can somewhat stand its ground op? And why is it OP if thief has mobility if it doesn't have the ability to hold its ground ie disengage? So is thief supposed to be weak 1v1 and have low sustain/hp with just ok disengage potential? Sounds like a viable class to me lol. I hope I'm wrong but I can see the thief class as a whole being basically erased by these new devs with the help of the vocal gw2 community that has little care to the long term health of the game and only want their preferred classes to be in great spots while being barely contested by others, been this way for a long time now.

So you want to be necormancer with high mobility in a nutshell?The issue is not that it can 1v1

The issue is that while its 1v1'ing its not very subjective to any kind of retaliation other than on hit procs such as retaliation and auras both of which are extremely rare among the professions. Retaliations being limited to mostly guardian and auras like shocking aura being limited to only tempest and base ele for the most part.People dont mind you having lots of evades or a modest amount of stealth what people do mind is not having enough common tools spread throughout the game to combat it. Literally nothing except shocking aura stops that style of play for any decent amount of time and only should the thief choose to strike the aura buffed target.If a build does not allow for others to retaliate reasonably during a moment of down time then that build needs to be adjusted its simple.

No one cares if you get the power to 1v1 people care if they don't ever have a proper turn to fight you back though.

My issue is that when a thief build is buffed into a spot where its somewhat a viable 1v1 build without relying on one shot cheap mechanics its deemed OP because it constantly evades. How else would it sustain long enough in the fight if evades are its main defensive mechanic, of course it would have to evade enough to sustain itself in a fight to win it.I wouldnt really say staff was buffed though that staff bug has been there for a long time and people just didnt abuse it very bluntly. Its not until it was heavily abused to chain evades for long periods did it become a problem.I cant recall any buffs to staff or daredevil that made a super significant change to make it 1v1 viable. As far as i know its just as viable as its always been. Lastly its we have to remember the game is not only balanced around 1v1. I even forget this from time to time myself.

Daredevil will still have plenty of evades to sustain itself for an extended period of time. Will you be able to do it for extremely long periods of time without the staff 3 jump fix? No. Will you have bigger gaps between your evades? Yes. Overall not that much is changing staff dodge will still be a viable build but it wont be as 1 sided as it is now.Like i said if there were more tools that could counter such an evasive style of play across the game in general no one would likely minded it. But evasive play styles are a big topic right now considering

So if a thieves evades are to op because they can allow the thief to stay in the fight long enough(doesn't have passive sustain/hp or invulnerability) than how will a thief sustain itself in the fight long enough to win? They can't have a burst buff to shorten ttk so they wouldnt need sustain cuz the community will cry, they already cry about them disengaging all the time due to low sustain so.... and now being g able to evade long enough to sustain the fight is OP lmao it's seriously halarious. Like I said can't wait to see where thief's at in a yr. Not being g able to combat it is BS as I'm not a amazing player myself yet I've had zero issues taking down staff thieves in every rank game I've played. There was a few that took a while to down so I left them but they weren't a big threat to me yet I can face half the other classes that take a while to down as well but can burst u in secs with far more deeps like warrior,holo,slb etc and on top the DD has one burst rotation so it's easy to know what its gonna do,other classes have many but because it's a thief build when community gets all in arms.Good stuff!

Why do you assume the evades should last you until
"you win"
that in itself is not a healthy way of thinking how the evades should be balanced.The evades should last you long enough to give you a chance to win with the tools you have at hand (your weapon skills combined with your utilities and mind tactics). The evades should not last you in-defiantly until you do win just because if i fight you long enough i should win.

Ranger gs auto had an evade tied to its final strike and people would intentionally try to strike nothing with it so to proc the evade multiple times (2-3 times in a row) which was surely not the intentional use of the skill originally, it was fixed to not reward abusive un intentional behavior. I dont see why fixing the jump +3 on dd staff should not get the same treatment obviously the skill was never intended to be used like that. and using it in such away makes it far more powerful of a tool than what it really was designed to be.

I agree some of these other classes have too much damage and or too much defense to go along with that damage and hopefully they will be getting the shorter end of the stick than thief when the nerfs start hitting.

But they don't. Pls don't come to me with the infinite dodge hyperbole. Might as well say thief has infinite ini and endurance which it most defenitly doesn't. They cannot evade for ever for one and second of all if evading is their only real sustain method why shouldn't they be able to long enough to have a chance at winning a fight?

You know what i mean. ITs not literally infinite but its enough to be considered such if you last for 2-3 minutes on dodges then no that should not be a thing lastly.This should mostly be a bug fix if your build hinges on a bug or unintentional use of a skill then thats not a good thing for your class or for anyone else.I wont go back and forth with you over and over again.If you think the amount of evade access is across the dodges, endurance restoration traits and skills, and weapon skills then i dont know what to tell you. ive seen thieves and 1v1 people and win with far less than what the staff / dodge build offers so lets not even go there.

Once again its also about the fact that that build with that bug has very limited counter-play. To counter something you need to be able to combat it. You cant effectively combat someone who is just dodging for the majority of a fight. Similarly You cannot combat someone who is invisible for the majority of a fight. When i say majority of a fight i 0mean 75% or more of the fights total time. With evades (which also do damage) specifically, because there are no un-dodgeable damage mechanics in pvp expect people to call out something should it get out of hand.

U do realize with full ini supplemented with prepardness u can use st3 like 3 times than swap to get another 3 ini and by than u wait a sec to have enough for a fourth. That's all ur global resource gone for all skills. So a thief monkey bouncing using ini on vault is gonna be able to consistantly use the st3 jump bug only so often . It's not like u cam just sit and spam vault and st3 continually with some bounds in between for infinite evade. I'm gonna low ball peeps claims here and challenge anyone to post a vid of a staff/staff DD evading for 1 minute real time continually. I'd be interested in seeing it.

Just watch monthly vids and you see staff thieves evading the entire game long not just 1 minute

Every staff video ive seen, Staff thief gets squished after he uses up all his Ini and he fails to escape. Just like literally every other thief... Nothing different there.

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@rowdy.5107 said:

@foste.3098 said:@Killthehealersffs.8940 @Psycoprophet.8107staff/staff daredevil is op in the sense that it warps the game around it since only particular builds can deal with it.But i am 100% against nerfing staff to the point of un-play ability, which seams like it will be the case, just because 1 degenerate build poped up and is abusing the on swap trait and sigils to bunker points. Daredevil was never meant to be a bunker but a bruiser, there is a big difference there.

i don't see the problem with a build being extremely defensive to keep a node. this is what conquest is about. as for thief, evades is just the only way you can do it, but people seem to hate everything they can't hit.

as for the on swap stuff, you're wrong. caed (i think) once polarized a double s/d build back in the times of dhumfire necro and spirit ranger with the same ini on weapon swap trait. as usual, it got nerfed because people in the history of gw2 have always complained about evades.

if thief evades and stealth keep getting nerfed, how about giving thief an actual build that doesn't rely on them?

This^ its halarious to me that the community spouts op on any thief build that has a chance at 1v1'ing than turns around and complains about thieves always disengaging during fights and how it's unfair. So according to the community thief shouldn't be able to hold its ground because of the mobility it has but at the same time shouldn't be able to have the mobility to constantly disengage due to not being able to hold it's ground lol its beyond funny. The staff/staff build dps isnt near what most dps builds do like if DA or CS was opted for instead of acro. Most other high deeps builds on other classes do more to. So staff/staff is basically a stall build that uses timed evades to sustain due to EVADES being it's way of sustain and its OP? So a warrior or any classes using their multiple passive and active sustain options while having high bursts is ok but a thief that spams evades cuz it's how it lives is OP? Why is any thief build that can somewhat stand its ground op? And why is it OP if thief has mobility if it doesn't have the ability to hold its ground ie disengage? So is thief supposed to be weak 1v1 and have low sustain/hp with just ok disengage potential? Sounds like a viable class to me lol. I hope I'm wrong but I can see the thief class as a whole being basically erased by these new devs with the help of the vocal gw2 community that has little care to the long term health of the game and only want their preferred classes to be in great spots while being barely contested by others, been this way for a long time now.

So you want to be necormancer with high mobility in a nutshell?The issue is not that it can 1v1

The issue is that while its 1v1'ing its not very subjective to any kind of retaliation other than on hit procs such as retaliation and auras both of which are extremely rare among the professions. Retaliations being limited to mostly guardian and auras like shocking aura being limited to only tempest and base ele for the most part.People dont mind you having lots of evades or a modest amount of stealth what people do mind is not having enough common tools spread throughout the game to combat it. Literally nothing except shocking aura stops that style of play for any decent amount of time and only should the thief choose to strike the aura buffed target.If a build does not allow for others to retaliate reasonably during a moment of down time then that build needs to be adjusted its simple.

No one cares if you get the power to 1v1 people care if they don't ever have a proper turn to fight you back though.

My issue is that when a thief build is buffed into a spot where its somewhat a viable 1v1 build without relying on one shot cheap mechanics its deemed OP because it constantly evades. How else would it sustain long enough in the fight if evades are its main defensive mechanic, of course it would have to evade enough to sustain itself in a fight to win it.I wouldnt really say staff was buffed though that staff bug has been there for a long time and people just didnt abuse it very bluntly. Its not until it was heavily abused to chain evades for long periods did it become a problem.I cant recall any buffs to staff or daredevil that made a super significant change to make it 1v1 viable. As far as i know its just as viable as its always been. Lastly its we have to remember the game is not only balanced around 1v1. I even forget this from time to time myself.

Daredevil will still have plenty of evades to sustain itself for an extended period of time. Will you be able to do it for extremely long periods of time without the staff 3 jump fix? No. Will you have bigger gaps between your evades? Yes. Overall not that much is changing staff dodge will still be a viable build but it wont be as 1 sided as it is now.Like i said if there were more tools that could counter such an evasive style of play across the game in general no one would likely minded it. But evasive play styles are a big topic right now considering

So if a thieves evades are to op because they can allow the thief to stay in the fight long enough(doesn't have passive sustain/hp or invulnerability) than how will a thief sustain itself in the fight long enough to win? They can't have a burst buff to shorten ttk so they wouldnt need sustain cuz the community will cry, they already cry about them disengaging all the time due to low sustain so.... and now being g able to evade long enough to sustain the fight is OP lmao it's seriously halarious. Like I said can't wait to see where thief's at in a yr. Not being g able to combat it is BS as I'm not a amazing player myself yet I've had zero issues taking down staff thieves in every rank game I've played. There was a few that took a while to down so I left them but they weren't a big threat to me yet I can face half the other classes that take a while to down as well but can burst u in secs with far more deeps like warrior,holo,slb etc and on top the DD has one burst rotation so it's easy to know what its gonna do,other classes have many but because it's a thief build when community gets all in arms.Good stuff!

Why do you assume the evades should last you until
"you win"
that in itself is not a healthy way of thinking how the evades should be balanced.The evades should last you long enough to give you a chance to win with the tools you have at hand (your weapon skills combined with your utilities and mind tactics). The evades should not last you in-defiantly until you do win just because if i fight you long enough i should win.

Ranger gs auto had an evade tied to its final strike and people would intentionally try to strike nothing with it so to proc the evade multiple times (2-3 times in a row) which was surely not the intentional use of the skill originally, it was fixed to not reward abusive un intentional behavior. I dont see why fixing the jump +3 on dd staff should not get the same treatment obviously the skill was never intended to be used like that. and using it in such away makes it far more powerful of a tool than what it really was designed to be.

I agree some of these other classes have too much damage and or too much defense to go along with that damage and hopefully they will be getting the shorter end of the stick than thief when the nerfs start hitting.

But they don't. Pls don't come to me with the infinite dodge hyperbole. Might as well say thief has infinite ini and endurance which it most defenitly doesn't. They cannot evade for ever for one and second of all if evading is their only real sustain method why shouldn't they be able to long enough to have a chance at winning a fight?

You know what i mean. ITs not literally infinite but its enough to be considered such if you last for 2-3 minutes on dodges then no that should not be a thing lastly.This should mostly be a bug fix if your build hinges on a bug or unintentional use of a skill then thats not a good thing for your class or for anyone else.I wont go back and forth with you over and over again.If you think the amount of evade access is across the dodges, endurance restoration traits and skills, and weapon skills then i dont know what to tell you. ive seen thieves and 1v1 people and win with far less than what the staff / dodge build offers so lets not even go there.

Once again its also about the fact that that build with that bug has very limited counter-play. To counter something you need to be able to combat it. You cant effectively combat someone who is just dodging for the majority of a fight. Similarly You cannot combat someone who is invisible for the majority of a fight. When i say majority of a fight i 0mean 75% or more of the fights total time. With evades (which also do damage) specifically, because there are no un-dodgeable damage mechanics in pvp expect people to call out something should it get out of hand.

U do realize with full ini supplemented with prepardness u can use st3 like 3 times than swap to get another 3 ini and by than u wait a sec to have enough for a fourth. That's all ur global resource gone for all skills. So a thief monkey bouncing using ini on vault is gonna be able to consistantly use the st3 jump bug only so often . It's not like u cam just sit and spam vault and st3 continually with some bounds in between for infinite evade. I'm gonna low ball peeps claims here and challenge anyone to post a vid of a staff/staff DD evading for 1 minute real time continually. I'd be interested in seeing it.

Just watch monthly vids and you see staff thieves evading the entire game long not just 1 minute

Every staff video ive seen, Staff thief gets squished after he uses up all his Ini and he fails to escape. Just like literally every other thief... Nothing different there.

Well thats what happens when you use up all your defense being offensive. Same thing happens with condi thief should you happen to catch them after they spam evade around you should the conditions not kill you.

But it really depends on the build and knowing how to balance endurance restoration with dodges and ini.That said there is no excuse for skill abuse to this level. The skill abuse was fine when it was rare to see it used but once it gets public and everyone under the sun starts using it abuse will not be tolerated. Thief is not the first class to fall victim to this.

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@Koen.1327 said:

@foste.3098 said:@Killthehealersffs.8940 @Psycoprophet.8107staff/staff daredevil is op in the sense that it warps the game around it since only particular builds can deal with it.But i am 100% against nerfing staff to the point of un-play ability, which seams like it will be the case, just because 1 degenerate build poped up and is abusing the on swap trait and sigils to bunker points. Daredevil was never meant to be a bunker but a bruiser, there is a big difference there.

i don't see the problem with a build being extremely defensive to keep a node. this is what conquest is about. as for thief, evades is just the only way you can do it, but people seem to hate everything they can't hit.

as for the on swap stuff, you're wrong. caed (i think) once polarized a double s/d build back in the times of dhumfire necro and spirit ranger with the same ini on weapon swap trait. as usual, it got nerfed because people in the history of gw2 have always complained about evades.

if thief evades and stealth keep getting nerfed, how about giving thief an actual build that doesn't rely on them?

This^ its halarious to me that the community spouts op on any thief build that has a chance at 1v1'ing than turns around and complains about thieves always disengaging during fights and how it's unfair. So according to the community thief shouldn't be able to hold its ground because of the mobility it has but at the same time shouldn't be able to have the mobility to constantly disengage due to not being able to hold it's ground lol its beyond funny. The staff/staff build dps isnt near what most dps builds do like if DA or CS was opted for instead of acro. Most other high deeps builds on other classes do more to. So staff/staff is basically a stall build that uses timed evades to sustain due to EVADES being it's way of sustain and its OP? So a warrior or any classes using their multiple passive and active sustain options while having high bursts is ok but a thief that spams evades cuz it's how it lives is OP? Why is any thief build that can somewhat stand its ground op? And why is it OP if thief has mobility if it doesn't have the ability to hold its ground ie disengage? So is thief supposed to be weak 1v1 and have low sustain/hp with just ok disengage potential? Sounds like a viable class to me lol. I hope I'm wrong but I can see the thief class as a whole being basically erased by these new devs with the help of the vocal gw2 community that has little care to the long term health of the game and only want their preferred classes to be in great spots while being barely contested by others, been this way for a long time now.

So you want to be necormancer with high mobility in a nutshell?The issue is not that it can 1v1

The issue is that while its 1v1'ing its not very subjective to any kind of retaliation other than on hit procs such as retaliation and auras both of which are extremely rare among the professions. Retaliations being limited to mostly guardian and auras like shocking aura being limited to only tempest and base ele for the most part.People dont mind you having lots of evades or a modest amount of stealth what people do mind is not having enough common tools spread throughout the game to combat it. Literally nothing except shocking aura stops that style of play for any decent amount of time and only should the thief choose to strike the aura buffed target.If a build does not allow for others to retaliate reasonably during a moment of down time then that build needs to be adjusted its simple.

No one cares if you get the power to 1v1 people care if they don't ever have a proper turn to fight you back though.

My issue is that when a thief build is buffed into a spot where its somewhat a viable 1v1 build without relying on one shot cheap mechanics its deemed OP because it constantly evades. How else would it sustain long enough in the fight if evades are its main defensive mechanic, of course it would have to evade enough to sustain itself in a fight to win it.I wouldnt really say staff was buffed though that staff bug has been there for a long time and people just didnt abuse it very bluntly. Its not until it was heavily abused to chain evades for long periods did it become a problem.I cant recall any buffs to staff or daredevil that made a super significant change to make it 1v1 viable. As far as i know its just as viable as its always been. Lastly its we have to remember the game is not only balanced around 1v1. I even forget this from time to time myself.

Daredevil will still have plenty of evades to sustain itself for an extended period of time. Will you be able to do it for extremely long periods of time without the staff 3 jump fix? No. Will you have bigger gaps between your evades? Yes. Overall not that much is changing staff dodge will still be a viable build but it wont be as 1 sided as it is now.Like i said if there were more tools that could counter such an evasive style of play across the game in general no one would likely minded it. But evasive play styles are a big topic right now considering

So if a thieves evades are to op because they can allow the thief to stay in the fight long enough(doesn't have passive sustain/hp or invulnerability) than how will a thief sustain itself in the fight long enough to win? They can't have a burst buff to shorten ttk so they wouldnt need sustain cuz the community will cry, they already cry about them disengaging all the time due to low sustain so.... and now being g able to evade long enough to sustain the fight is OP lmao it's seriously halarious. Like I said can't wait to see where thief's at in a yr. Not being g able to combat it is BS as I'm not a amazing player myself yet I've had zero issues taking down staff thieves in every rank game I've played. There was a few that took a while to down so I left them but they weren't a big threat to me yet I can face half the other classes that take a while to down as well but can burst u in secs with far more deeps like warrior,holo,slb etc and on top the DD has one burst rotation so it's easy to know what its gonna do,other classes have many but because it's a thief build when community gets all in arms.Good stuff!

Why do you assume the evades should last you until
"you win"
that in itself is not a healthy way of thinking how the evades should be balanced.The evades should last you long enough to give you a chance to win with the tools you have at hand (your weapon skills combined with your utilities and mind tactics). The evades should not last you in-defiantly until you do win just because if i fight you long enough i should win.

Ranger gs auto had an evade tied to its final strike and people would intentionally try to strike nothing with it so to proc the evade multiple times (2-3 times in a row) which was surely not the intentional use of the skill originally, it was fixed to not reward abusive un intentional behavior. I dont see why fixing the jump +3 on dd staff should not get the same treatment obviously the skill was never intended to be used like that. and using it in such away makes it far more powerful of a tool than what it really was designed to be.

I agree some of these other classes have too much damage and or too much defense to go along with that damage and hopefully they will be getting the shorter end of the stick than thief when the nerfs start hitting.

But they don't. Pls don't come to me with the infinite dodge hyperbole. Might as well say thief has infinite ini and endurance which it most defenitly doesn't. They cannot evade for ever for one and second of all if evading is their only real sustain method why shouldn't they be able to long enough to have a chance at winning a fight?

You know what i mean. ITs not literally infinite but its enough to be considered such if you last for 2-3 minutes on dodges then no that should not be a thing lastly.This should mostly be a bug fix if your build hinges on a bug or unintentional use of a skill then thats not a good thing for your class or for anyone else.I wont go back and forth with you over and over again.If you think the amount of evade access is across the dodges, endurance restoration traits and skills, and weapon skills then i dont know what to tell you. ive seen thieves and 1v1 people and win with far less than what the staff / dodge build offers so lets not even go there.

Once again its also about the fact that that build with that bug has very limited counter-play. To counter something you need to be able to combat it. You cant effectively combat someone who is just dodging for the majority of a fight. Similarly You cannot combat someone who is invisible for the majority of a fight. When i say majority of a fight i 0mean 75% or more of the fights total time. With evades (which also do damage) specifically, because there are no un-dodgeable damage mechanics in pvp expect people to call out something should it get out of hand.

U do realize with full ini supplemented with prepardness u can use st3 like 3 times than swap to get another 3 ini and by than u wait a sec to have enough for a fourth. That's all ur global resource gone for all skills. So a thief monkey bouncing using ini on vault is gonna be able to consistantly use the st3 jump bug only so often . It's not like u cam just sit and spam vault and st3 continually with some bounds in between for infinite evade. I'm gonna low ball peeps claims here and challenge anyone to post a vid of a staff/staff DD evading for 1 minute real time continually. I'd be interested in seeing it.

Just watch monthly vids and you see staff thieves evading the entire game long not just 1 minute

Again I've played the build for yrs since bounding Dodger builds and even constant evade time of 60 secs real time is not possible so...huge exaggeration and hyperbole. People see a DD evading for like 15 sec real time and all the sudden they have infinite evades, can't be hit. Now they evade through the whole match time frame lolThis right here is exactly what I'm talking about.Such good stuff.

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