Players Asking for dps check without knowking the boss mechanics in fractal

[knite.1542]

@LadyKitty.6120 said:And if the squad struggles with dps at easier bosses, there's usually no way they'd successfully kill some harder bosses. For ex. Gorseval, KC and CA can get really difficult if 2 dpsers play way below the average.

I get it now. If we got rid of DPS meters, we would not be able to see that certain people are holding the squad back. That means instead of maybe just kicking a couple of people, an entire squad would just not get a kill, which would be way less toxic and everyone would be happier.

I think I finally understand.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@knite.1542 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Most enjoy pushing their class to the max. Why should this group take in a player who performs far below this standard?

I guess the argument is that as long as you can get the kill, you should accept any and everyone. And if you don't do that, you are toxic.

Put it this way ... what is the difference in loot if you kill something in 3 minutes or 5? This game is not designed to reward exceptional performance anymore than marginal performance. It's black and white ... you either succeed or you don't. How you do that it up to you. But make no mistake, how you do that can have a negative or positive impact on you, depending on how you view the game and if your views are aligned to how the game is designed.

Omg. Some basic math. If you clear in 3 minutes you get 1,66* more loot then if you clear in 5.As I have explained multiple times, for those players that chpse to use restrictions, there is no negative impact. And if there is then it is smaller that taking inexpirianced player in.The game is designed with many modifires that improves play that stack which means performance goes up exponentionaly and not lineary. This means it is rewarding great performances.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:A smaller pool of applicants is the logical result of imposing player-made restrictions when forming a team ... so it does make sense.

Here is why DPS meters are not good ... because they give a false sense of what a player is capable of doing. They are toxic because people use them in this way to filter people. The range of DPS for most instance content is so wide that you could literally short-man most of them, so don't pull that "not 1%, but probably 10%" stuff ... there is a SIGNIFICANT margin of DPS range that can win most encounters ... and it only gets easier to accomplish as more good gear gets released.

I am not talking about actual performance difference on the dps meter.

I am talking about actual players willing, able and capable to perform to in some way clear a raid or challenge mode fractal.

OK. The topic is about how DPS meters related to toxic game environments and I've never seen anyone say they needed a DPS meter to learn how to clear raids or challenge mode fractals so ... I'm not what conversation you are having with who.

and this has been brought up multiple times by now:Toxicity was present before there was damage meters. Players who want to be toxic will be toxic. At the same time, damage meters reduced the arbitrary discrimination against certain classes.

Could Arenanet implement a rule similar to what was mentioned about Final Fantasy and discourage damage meter talk or mentioning in game? Sure. Would it remove some of the perceived toxicity? Likely. Would this be of concern to people who us damage meters responsibly? Not at all since for most of us it's not about being toxic but rather a veru useful tool.

On that notion, even Final Fantasy, who disallow open talk about damage meters, have not banned damage meters in game.

Damage meters are not needed, but they make life a LOT easier for actual raiders who are interested in improving their performance and that of their group both at the low skill end and high skill end.

[shejesa.3712]

@Obtena.7952There's so much wrong with your approach.First of all, this game is not black and white. This game is white and permafrost. There are basically no failstates, no danger. Ofc, you can pick people who are way worse than you, but it's an equivalent of hanging out with people with IQ below room temperature. In some cases it's even not possible to clear certain bosses with such people, gorse, kc, dhuum just to name a few.

Your main point is that this game allows people to play whatever they want, and doesn't require them to improve, which is why use of dps meters is toxic because we can tell who doesn't care enough to at least match level of the people he joined.

No hardcore players are talking about being 1 or even 5% short of a benchmark. There's positioning, mechanics, rng, stuff like that, so it's obvious you'd have to have really optimal pull to have a near-benchmark dps. The thing is that casuals have an insane approach, they thing that mashing random buttons, using weapons that don't even fit meta, or just tapping 1 on their bearbow is good enough. Suprise, it's not if you want to play with people who are not advertising as 'everyone welcome.' Sad but true, if you see a party with t4|hfb+ren+dps you are experienced to do your stuff, not to be carried.

When it comes to your idea that it's detrimental to hardcore players that we do not want to invite people who don't care to improve because they think they should be accepted on the merit of their 5k dps. Think about the situation I'll describe for a minute.Imagine you were to build a display case from Ikea. From my weeb experience I can tell you it's much easier to make when you have someone to hold the big sheets of glass while you're locking them in. You don't want to struggle on your own, so you decided to ask for help. Unfortunately, your friend who you know is capable of holding a piece of glass (not a high bar, it's like being able to do your rotation more or less correctly and do mechanics) will be able to help you in 20 minutes. But there's also a person with the mental capacity of a cucumber, who is available to help, and is even very eager to do so.Do you have the picture in your mind?Now, someone who wants to have his stuff done properly (a hc player) will wait 20 minutes and watch an episode of a tv show, watch some adult material, or just talk for a moment with his buddies on discord of facebook.You seem to advocate for the latter, to accept that person who is definitely not fit for the role, and then be happy that he broke something or was not much of a help anyway and you ended up doing it yourself, while paying attention to that person so that they don't hurt themselves.

And, finally, explain something to me. If you do not wish to be challenged by anything, because you have two jobs, 8 kids, a wife, and a dog, why are you picking a medium that requires input, and an mmo at that? Why don't you, idk, read a book, preferably one with pictures, because reading words might be an unwanted challenge after so many hours of excruciating work to provide for your family.I mean, honestly, excuse me being mean, but tell me, how can you want to play an mmo, play all (even the harder) content in the game, and not be challenged whatsoever.

I might be just a mean old fart (I'm 23 tho, I guess it's still millenial), or maybe I'm just not from US where participation trophies are a thing, but I cannot fathom how can you not want to be challenged. Without challenge doing anything is dull. You don't improve, you don't get any experience, you are stuck.

@knite.1542I get it now. If we got rid of DPS meters, we would not be able to see that certain people are holding the squad back. That means instead of maybe just kicking a couple of > people, an entire squad would just not get a kill, which would be way less toxic and everyone would be happier.

Or you could have people rotate on mechanics, kicking people who fail them.

[Taygus.4571]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:A smaller pool of applicants is the logical result of imposing player-made restrictions when forming a team ... so it does make sense.

Here is why DPS meters are not good ... because they give a false sense of what a player is capable of doing. They are toxic because people use them in this way to filter people. The range of DPS for most instance content is so wide that you could literally short-man most of them, so don't pull that "not 1%, but probably 10%" stuff ... there is a SIGNIFICANT margin of DPS range that can win most encounters ... and it only gets easier to accomplish as more good gear gets released.

Smaller pool of aplicants doesnt matter. It only increse the time you need to w8 for them. That is not an issue because you can do something totaly diferent and fun while waiting. For example I am painting/glueing miniatures. I could take bad players to raid instead but that wouldnt be fun.

Well, either way, the it has a negative impact, which was my point. Smaller pool, longer wait times OR both ... the point is that artificial restrictions have a negative impact on the people that impose them. I don't really care what they are.

playing with players who do less than 3k dps in a dps role.Has a far greater negative impact.Playing with players who stay ranged than complain to you for not healing them, is extremely negative.

Wait times are not bothersome.

[LadyKitty.6120]

@shejesa.3712 said:@"Obtena.7952"No hardcore players are talking about being 1 or even 5% short of a benchmark. There's positioning, mechanics, rng, stuff like that, so it's obvious you'd have to have really optimal pull to have a near-benchmark dps. The thing is that casuals have an insane approach, they thing that mashing random buttons, using weapons that don't even fit meta, or just tapping 1 on their bearbow is good enough. Suprise, it's not if you want to play with people who are not advertising as 'everyone welcome.' Sad but true, if you see a party with t4|hfb+ren+dps you are experienced to do your stuff, not to be carried.And actually you don't even need to necessarily have the meta weapon combo on as long as you learn to use your weapon of choice well and the weapon skills have at least decent damage coefficients for the build (like a weapon without any condi output is obviously bad for condibuild, for ex. greatsword on condifirebrand, and a condi-specific weapon with low damage coefficient doesn't quite work for power build, like shortbow for power rangers). For ex. greatsword+longbow works as alternative for power DH or axe+axe/longbow for power soulbeast. (Link to Kitty's damage research on previous balance patch in signature.)

And when it comes to tapping 1...Kitty's noticed that lots of druids, everyone's healer of choice, mostly spam staff 1 and enter CA about once per 45-70 seconds which results in almost 0 heals and boons and as such, it's become rather difficult to clear stuff with LFG squads if having to rely on druids for heals. For that reason, Kitty's these days preferring other healers and requiring druids to ping their warhorn on join to make sure they'd at least potentially use Call of the Wild every now and then. And even then, many druids don't use it more than maybe 2-4 times in a 5-minute fight, which combined with staff 1 spam, CA 1 spam (total waste of energy) and using CA once in a blue moon warrants a kick and a block from a toxic person like Kitty. ('cause if that happened, the squad very likely wiped more than once and Kitty even specificly says "Know your stuff." in her LFGs <.<)And in case that anyone thinks about blaming Kitty for hypocrisy due to her "staff druid"-videos (due to spamming staff 1 if she's forced to play druid as Kitty likes challenge and she really hates any squads that make her play druid)...Kitty at least usually puts out top 1% boons while at it.

[shejesa.3712]

@"LadyKitty.6120" said:

And actually you don't even need to necessarily have the meta weapon combo on as long as you learn to use your weapon of choice well and the weapon skills have at least decent damage coefficients for the build (like a weapon without any condi output is obviously bad for condibuild, for ex. greatsword on condifirebrand, and a condi-specific weapon with low damage coefficient doesn't quite work for power build, like shortbow for power rangers). For ex. greatsword+longbow works as alternative for power DH or axe+axe/longbow for power soulbeast. (Link to Kitty's damage research on previous balance patch in signature.)There's a limited number of weapons you can have. e.g. on dh, greatsword is a must have, but then it would be really cool to have x/focus because of traits like Defender's Dogma, plus for better survival when you go in and kill stuff before it can kill you. And even if that was not the case, no weapons, except for sword and scepter, both of which are more or less viable, are dps focused, rather condi, support, or some whacky mix of the two, also known as longbow.

And when it comes to tapping 1...Kitty's noticed that lots of druids, everyone's healer of choice, mostly spam staff 1 and enter CA about once per 45-70 seconds which results in almost 0 heals and boons and as such, it's become rather difficult to clear stuff with LFG squads if having to rely on druids for heals. For that reason, Kitty's these days preferring other healers and requiring druids to ping their warhorn on join to make sure they'd at least potentially use Call of the Wild every now and then. And even then, many druids don't use it more than maybe 2-4 times in a 5-minute fight, which combined with staff 1 spam, CA 1 spam (total waste of energy) and using CA once in a blue moon warrants a kick and a block from a toxic person like Kitty. ('cause if that happened, the squad very likely wiped more than once and Kitty even specificly says "Know your stuff." in her LFGs <.<)

*of course XDAlso, I don't know the pain, I am support main (primarly because I'm pretty bad with more complex dps rotations).But tbh, I don't even really use staff this much, outside of the initial cd dump, it's much easier to generate CA with axe/warhorn than with staff you maybe hit one ally with #1But if you get a druid who camps staff and doesn't keep might, fury and spirits up, that's a waste of a slot and oxygen.

[LadyKitty.6120]

@shejesa.3712 said:

@"LadyKitty.6120" said:

And actually you don't even need to necessarily have the meta weapon combo on as long as you learn to use your weapon of choice well and the weapon skills have at least decent damage coefficients for the build (like a weapon without any condi output is obviously bad for condibuild, for ex. greatsword on condifirebrand, and a condi-specific weapon with low damage coefficient doesn't quite work for power build, like shortbow for power rangers). For ex. greatsword+longbow works as alternative for power DH or axe+axe/longbow for power soulbeast. (Link to Kitty's damage research on previous balance patch in signature.)There's a limited number of weapons you can have. e.g. on dh, greatsword is a must have, but then it would be really cool to have x/focus because of traits like Defender's Dogma, plus for better survival when you go in and kill stuff before it can kill you. And even if that was not the case, no weapons, except for sword and scepter, both of which are more or less viable, are dps focused, rather condi, support, or some whacky mix of the two, also known as longbow.This is going a bit off-topic but...Well, according to Kitty's testing, gs/sword+focus was only 6,6% (1,7k dps) ahead of lb/sword+focus on the previous balance era so GS isn't necessarily a must-have if you don't mind having slightly lower dps. (Just play a bit better to compensate.) Though then again, Kitty's only good enough to reach ~90% of the benchmark (without infusions) if the rotation isn't super-complicated. Longbow is a bad weapon by itself, but it actually synergises nicely with some other weapons. Most of skilled peoples just don't bother with testing other options than the best since they have no use for them and thus the alternatives are generally thought to be much weaker than they truly are (ofc not helped by many exaggerating how much of a difference something like 1,7k dps actually is as it's just the difference between someone pulling 85% and someone else pulling 90% of benchmark and average LFG raiders rarely do even 80% of benchmark).

And when it comes to tapping 1...Kitty's noticed that lots of druids, everyone's healer of choice, mostly spam staff 1 and enter CA about once per 45-70 seconds which results in almost 0 heals and boons and as such, it's become rather difficult to clear stuff with LFG squads if having to rely on druids for heals. For that reason, Kitty's these days preferring other healers and requiring druids to ping their warhorn on join to make sure they'd at least potentially use Call of the Wild every now and then. And even then, many druids don't use it more than maybe 2-4 times in a 5-minute fight, which combined with staff 1 spam, CA 1 spam (total waste of energy) and using CA once in a blue moon warrants a kick and a block from a toxic person like Kitty. ('cause if that happened, the squad very likely wiped more than once and Kitty even specificly says "Know your stuff." in her LFGs <.<)

*of course XDAlso, I don't know the pain, I am support main (primarly because I'm pretty bad with more complex dps rotations).But tbh, I don't even really use staff this much, outside of the initial cd dump, it's much easier to generate CA with axe/warhorn than with staff you maybe hit one ally with #1But if you get a druid who camps staff and doesn't keep might, fury and spirits up, that's a waste of a slot and oxygen.Well, when Kitty's playing a druid, her objective is usually to make the parsed rotation look like she's the worst druid ever by making it only show staff 1, spirits and CA skills. The resulting logs can look hilarious. (Image of some Gorseval log for lulz:

https://imgur.com/a/NLsIlvf

)

[Obtena.7952]

@shejesa.3712 said:There's so much wrong with your approach.

No there isn't because the game is designed to work exactly like the approach I'm describing and me and the people I play with, along with lots of others prove that approach all the time by being successful in our instances and not adhering to any philosophy about what builds are best to use. NOTHING you can say will take away the facts. The part that is sad here is that so many players have been talked into this idea about how they have to play the game to succeed in it when it's all a lie. The part that is worst is when people try to cover up these truths with lies about how bad things are if you don't play a certain way that they just happen to coincidentally prescribe to. Gee, how opportunistic of them.

[Teratus.2859]

This be pretty much why I make my own groups for most things and add "All Welcome" to the LFG description.

At least that way I can shut down anyone who tries to pull that dps check crap in my groups or demands I kick someone for being the wrong class or level etc.

I avoid DPS groups for the same courtesy.. We have different playstyle preferences so easier to just avoid each other :)

[knite.1542]

@Obtena.7952 said:

No there isn't because the game is designed to work exactly like the approach I'm describing

Most of the game is designed to work like the approach you are describing. What exactly is your level of Fractal and raid clear experience? Have you cleared Dhuum CM with this approach you are describing? Or CM Fractals? I am just curious.

[knite.1542]

@"Teratus.2859" said:This be pretty much why I make my own groups for most things and add "All Welcome" to the LFG description.

At least that way I can shut down anyone who tries to pull that dps check kitten in my groups or demands I kick someone for being the wrong class or level etc.

I avoid DPS groups for the same courtesy.. We have different playstyle preferences so easier to just avoid each other :)

This is a pretty ideal approach. A lot of people that hate toxic DPS meter users don't make their own groups and just complain. I wish more people were like you.

[Teratus.2859]

@knite.1542 said:

@"Teratus.2859" said:This be pretty much why I make my own groups for most things and add "All Welcome" to the LFG description.

At least that way I can shut down anyone who tries to pull that dps check kitten in my groups or demands I kick someone for being the wrong class or level etc.

I avoid DPS groups for the same courtesy.. We have different playstyle preferences so easier to just avoid each other :)

This is a pretty ideal approach. A lot of people that hate toxic DPS meter users don't make their own groups and just complain. I wish more people were like you.

Too many pointless arguments for no real reason right lol

DPS guys do join my groups often enough, but there's rarely toxicity anymore.Joining a group specified as "All Welcome" and then complaining about others who don't measure up to your expectations is equally as foolish as joining a "EXP DPS Zerk only" kind of group if you're playing a Nomad's thief with all racial skills xD

If you're not what they're clearly looking for then don't join.. simple.And if you're joining an "All Welcome" group then you loose the right to complain about anyone else in it.. really simple rules that anyone can follow imo ^^

[Vinceman.4572]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@shejesa.3712 said:There's so much wrong with your approach.

No there isn't because the game is designed to work exactly like the approach I'm describing and me and the people I play with, along with lots of others prove that approach all the time by being successful in our instances and not adhering to any philosophy about what builds are best to use. NOTHING you can say will take away the facts. The part that is sad here is that so many players have been talked into this idea about how they have to play the game to succeed in it when it's all a lie. The part that is worst is when people try to cover up these truths with lies about how bad things are if you don't play a certain way that they just happen to coincidentally prescribe to. Gee, how opportunistic of them.

Yeah it works, for almost all content in the game but not for all (not even the most) raid bosses or a decent run in fractal cms. And that's the thing we are talking about when it comes to problems between players. It's not an issue at world bosses, dungeons or chilling t4 runs that can last to 1.5 hours although you play 3 fractals in total.The majority of raid pugs are far from reaching any good dps numbers but their numbers are decent + they know boss mechanics. Someone who isn't able to pull those numbers and has difficulties with mechanics will never ever kill a raid boss without being hard carried by others. It's just not working...even playing 10 healer support squads aren't going to work if you don't know how to play properly. It's way different from dungeons and most t4 fracs where you can die your way through.

[Obtena.7952]

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@shejesa.3712 said:There's so much wrong with your approach.

No there isn't because the game is designed to work exactly like the approach I'm describing and me and the people I play with, along with lots of others prove that approach all the time by being successful in our instances and not adhering to any philosophy about what builds are best to use. NOTHING you can say will take away the facts. The part that is sad here is that so many players have been talked into this idea about how they have to play the game to succeed in it when it's all a lie. The part that is worst is when people try to cover up these truths with lies about how bad things are if you don't play a certain way that they just happen to coincidentally prescribe to. Gee, how opportunistic of them.

Yeah it works, for almost all content in the game but not for all (not even the most) raid bosses or a decent run in fractal cms. And that's the thing we are talking about when it comes to problems between players. It's not an issue at world bosses, dungeons or chilling t4 runs that can last to 1.5 hours although you play 3 fractals in total.The majority of raid pugs are far from reaching any good dps numbers but their numbers are decent + they know boss mechanics. Someone who isn't able to pull those numbers and has difficulties with mechanics will never ever kill a raid boss without being hard carried by others. It's just not working...even playing 10 healer support squads aren't going to work if you don't know how to play properly. It's way different from dungeons and most t4 fracs where you can die your way through.

Like I said before, Anet did put in some exceptions to their philosophy ... I can't speak to why ... but the fact remains that this problem of people abusing others with DPS checks and whatever else they can to 'persuade' players to play a certain way has been around ALOT longer than CM's ... so no, this isn't JUST about the highest level content when you are talking about problems between players ... I hear stories about people bashing on players with gear and DPS checks for dungeons FFS. What I said remains true.

[knite.1542]

I love the idea that anyone that wants to play at a higher level only wants to do that because they have been tricked by the toxic DPS meter users.I guess people not carrying low skilled players or not wanting to play with them is abuse.

[Obtena.7952]

@knite.1542 said:I love the idea that anyone that wants to play at a higher level only wants to do that because they have been tricked by the toxic DPS meter users.I guess people not carrying low skilled players or not wanting to play with them is abuse.

Well, understanding people's points isn't a requirement to post on the forums, that's obvious.

[knite.1542]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@knite.1542 said:I love the idea that anyone that wants to play at a higher level only wants to do that because they have been tricked by the toxic DPS meter users.I guess people not carrying low skilled players or not wanting to play with them is abuse.

Well, understanding people's points isn't a requirement to post on the forums, that's obvious.

Will you answer my earlier question about your raid and fractal experience?

[Obtena.7952]

@knite.1542 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@knite.1542 said:I love the idea that anyone that wants to play at a higher level only wants to do that because they have been tricked by the toxic DPS meter users.I guess people not carrying low skilled players or not wanting to play with them is abuse.

Well, understanding people's points isn't a requirement to post on the forums, that's obvious.

Will you answer my earlier question about your raid and fractal experience?

No? It's not relevant to the discussion. Are you going to 'DPS meter' my experience now too? You think you are the first person to have this argument with me? Like I haven't done this with countless other people already and seen every pathetic argument they bring to the table for why they need to police people with their checks and meta builds? Bring it ... nothing here is new. The best part is that people complete these content every day defying these high performance standards.

[knite.1542]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@knite.1542 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@knite.1542 said:I love the idea that anyone that wants to play at a higher level only wants to do that because they have been tricked by the toxic DPS meter users.I guess people not carrying low skilled players or not wanting to play with them is abuse.

Well, understanding people's points isn't a requirement to post on the forums, that's obvious.

Will you answer my earlier question about your raid and fractal experience?

No? It's not relevant to the discussion. Are you going to 'DPS meter' my experience now too? You think you are the first person to have this argument with me? Like I haven't done this with countless other people already and seen every pathetic argument they bring to the table for why they need to police people with their checks and meta builds? Bring it ... nothing here is new. The best part is that people complete these content every day defying these high performance standards.

I understand now. No, I am not going to argue with you. The issue is very clear.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@shejesa.3712 said:There's so much wrong with your approach.

No there isn't because the game is designed to work exactly like the approach I'm describing and me and the people I play with, along with lots of others prove that approach all the time by being successful in our instances and not adhering to any philosophy about what builds are best to use. NOTHING you can say will take away the facts. The part that is sad here is that so many players have been talked into this idea about how they have to play the game to succeed in it when it's all a lie. The part that is worst is when people try to cover up these truths with lies about how bad things are if you don't play a certain way that they just happen to coincidentally prescribe to. Gee, how opportunistic of them.

Here is a fact for you. Anyone can play however they want. Just not with me. If they want to join me they will play how I want. Because that is how I want to play.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@shejesa.3712 said:There's so much wrong with your approach.

No there isn't because the game is designed to work exactly like the approach I'm describing and me and the people I play with, along with lots of others prove that approach all the time by being successful in our instances and not adhering to any philosophy about what builds are best to use. NOTHING you can say will take away the facts. The part that is sad here is that so many players have been talked into this idea about how they have to play the game to succeed in it when it's all a lie. The part that is worst is when people try to cover up these truths with lies about how bad things are if you don't play a certain way that they just happen to coincidentally prescribe to. Gee, how opportunistic of them.

Yeah it works, for almost all content in the game but not for all (not even the most) raid bosses or a decent run in fractal cms. And that's the thing we are talking about when it comes to problems between players. It's not an issue at world bosses, dungeons or chilling t4 runs that can last to 1.5 hours although you play 3 fractals in total.The majority of raid pugs are far from reaching any good dps numbers but their numbers are decent + they know boss mechanics. Someone who isn't able to pull those numbers and has difficulties with mechanics will never ever kill a raid boss without being hard carried by others. It's just not working...even playing 10 healer support squads aren't going to work if you don't know how to play properly. It's way different from dungeons and most t4 fracs where you can die your way through.

Like I said before, Anet did put in some exceptions to their philosophy ... I can't speak to why ... but the fact remains that this problem of people abusing others with DPS checks and whatever else they can to 'persuade' players to play a certain way has been around ALOT longer than CM's ... so no, this isn't JUST about the highest level content when you are talking about problems between players ... I hear stories about people bashing on players with gear and DPS checks for dungeons kitten. What I said remains true.

Yes, and I see regular toxicity in open world in relation to defiance bars and cc skills, basic stuff like positioning and trolling at meta events. Does that mean we ban those too?

When people use damage meters to shame others in casual content, then that is a personal issue of a player being toxic. That player might have been toxic either way, and some are.

@Obtena.7952 said:

@knite.1542 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@knite.1542 said:I love the idea that anyone that wants to play at a higher level only wants to do that because they have been tricked by the toxic DPS meter users.I guess people not carrying low skilled players or not wanting to play with them is abuse.

Well, understanding people's points isn't a requirement to post on the forums, that's obvious.

Will you answer my earlier question about your raid and fractal experience?

No? It's not relevant to the discussion. Are you going to 'DPS meter' my experience now too? You think you are the first person to have this argument with me? Like I haven't done this with countless other people already and seen every pathetic argument they bring to the table for why they need to police people with their checks and meta builds? Bring it ... nothing here is new. The best part is that people complete these content every day defying these high performance standards.

Actually, it is. You are very fast to talk about all content and how performance is secondary and content is easy enough. Establishing that you are competent enough to make those calls would in fact be a requirement to get taken seriously. Now I personally do not care because this forum is full of forum warriors, but as far as relevance, there is some.

As far as people completing this content daily: yes, all of which are above the threshold of necessary competence. Unfortunately there is a LOT of players who do not succeed daily. It would in fact be interesting to see how big both camps are and how many groups fail versus how many succeed. The fact that content gets cleared is no argument as to it being easy enough. GW2raidar gives a nice overview of what performance minimum there is (and thus a sense of bottom level performance required). Logic dictates that any player below this performance is absolutely uncapable to clear raid content. A vast majority of the player base is below that minimum threshold.

[Vinceman.4572]

@Obtena.7952 said:Like I said before, Anet did put in some exceptions to their philosophy

You are making a horrible mistake a lot of others have made in the past. The philosophy was never to cater every content in GW2 to every single person playing it. Not the manifesto, not every other statement neglected challenging content from the game that would only be possible to achieve by those who put in effort.Toxicity about DPS, players not bringing things others wished they do, people setting up wrong group descriptions, people refusing, people trolling and so is a much bigger environment than just pointing out the single one namely DPS meters. It's called human diversity. It exists in the game as well as just to every society out there.A happy picture book in a virtual world where every bunny has its place and all live together in harmony in flower land with a huge walkable rainbow and a beautiful sunset like Hello Kitty Online was not their intention when developing the game. It was and still is crystal clear that explorable dungeon paths were for players that wanted the extra challenge. Arenanet failed to deliver that due to underestimating power creep and players getting to exotic gear faster than expected and discovered certain strategies. They already admitted that they failed to deliver content in the past and reverted their mistake by introducing things like fractals and later on raids + fractal cms.It was never a turning back from a philosophy but more of the awareness that there are different player communities (casual PvE, ambitious PvE, PvP & WvW) in the game and they always wanted and planned to deliver content to all of those which was/is difficult to achieve with the actual size of the company.This is also supported by the fact that GW was never accessible in a sense of being successful here for every player in every area.Over the years many others and I have argued countless of times if the requirements of others would be respected we would have less issues. It goes both ways: Don't join groups that do not fit to you. As a casual don't enter speed run groups or groups with abbreviations you don't know and on the other hand as an ambitious player don't disturb casual groups either with non-participating or staying calm and helpful. (Even if it is and was clearly that more people with no plan at all joined experienced groups and are frustrated because they were kicked due to valid reasons and not the other way round that exp players dictated that many casual groups.)Of course all this can only happen in a perfect environment which is an utopia. But every individual is responsible for itself and has to take the consequences. Again, we are not Hello Kitty Online here.

[Nepster.4275]

I can not understand people who are arguing about this kind of stuff, I mean if you want a chill run with any class you want to play then join a low KP/Li group, usually they allow any kind of class on any kind of boss, if you want to go tryhard join a high KP/Li, but if you go high level then expect to be asked that you play on an acceptable level and you do all the stuff you should know, if you dont then you have no place in that group.To people who say that its bad that higher skilled people dont want to carry lower skilled people all I would say: Get out of your dream world pls... Not everyone is sharing lolipops in this world, and not everyone is nice, most of the people who play on high level didnt got carried by others so why they should?Also this game is mostly very easy, there is nothing anyone coudnt learn. Also, people who ask for relatively high KP/Li are doing that so they can just do the stuff and move on, not everyone is stitting at the PC for the whole day to have time to carry everyone who joins, if you cant hit a DPS check that means you dont have enough dedication to the thing you are doing raids or fractals or anything, if you dont have the dedication dont expect that people who have spent some hours on golem will be happy if you join to them and your are lazy to go on the golem for once for a hour

[Obtena.7952]

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Like I said before, Anet did put in some exceptions to their philosophy

You are making a horrible mistake a lot of others have made in the past. The philosophy was never to cater every content in GW2 to every single person playing it.

I'm not making that mistake. I'm a full advocate of people playing how they want in this game, because that's how it's designed.

@ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@shejesa.3712 said:There's so much wrong with your approach.

No there isn't because the game is designed to work exactly like the approach I'm describing and me and the people I play with, along with lots of others prove that approach all the time by being successful in our instances and not adhering to any philosophy about what builds are best to use. NOTHING you can say will take away the facts. The part that is sad here is that so many players have been talked into this idea about how they have to play the game to succeed in it when it's all a lie. The part that is worst is when people try to cover up these truths with lies about how bad things are if you don't play a certain way that they just happen to coincidentally prescribe to. Gee, how opportunistic of them.

Here is a fact for you. Anyone can play however they want. Just not with me. If they want to join me they will play how I want. Because that is how I want to play.

OK ... I don't have a problem with that and I don't see why you think it's relevant to shove that in the face of someone who clearly believes in that philosophy either. Maybe you like to think Playing How you Want supports the idea that people are monitored and judged by others. I don't think it is because that's now the game is designed.