Let's Talk About WvW Balance

[Xion.5694]

Hi Cal,

So what are your comments on already posted feedback?Love to hear.Thanks!

[Strider Pj.2193]

@Xion.5694 said:Hi Cal,

So what are your comments on already posted feedback?Love to hear.Thanks!

You’re new here aren’t you? ?

But more seriously, he responded to several things on the first page, and I wouldn’t expect a response to the bulk of items TBH.

But the other aspect of my concern is that, as someone else Pointed out, this has been the trend:

• come in and offer some items
• Respond for a day or two
• Not see someone for weeks at a time.

And that is where some of us are concerned about this latest foray.

[Forty Keks.9620]

@Heibi.4251 said:

@Forty Keks.9620 said:

@Heibi.4251 said:

1. Thief should not have the ability to port anyone in. Get rid of the portal. Mesmer should be the only one with a portal.
2. Thief stealth time is way to long. They are now able to nearly perma stealth. And with the addition of the portal you spend way too long chasing after them.
3. Scourge road of death needs to be addressed and nerfed massively. They apply too many condis way too fast to too many targets. Reduce the range and how many boons they can corrupt as well.
4. Warrior invulnerability needs a down tick.
5. Pulls need to be more line of sight based. Too many times have I seen people pulled out of a tower or keep when they are on the stairs down below the wall.
6. Ranger is not broken. Too many people just don't know how to fight one. The unkillable claim should go to the warrior invuln. Rangers die fast. No one wants rangers in their zerg but for some reason but them claim they are over powered(making you think you would want one in your zerg - go figure). The only ones complaining are the ones who can't fight them.

Enough for now.

ranger is extremely broken. the amount of mobility combined with its high amount of defense while still being able to drop someone with one ability is ridiculously unhealthy for the game. i really don't expect a guy with a soulbeast icon to agree but try playing a class other than ranger and fight against another ranger. guarantee you'll understand then.

I do know plenty about the soulbeast and what they are doing. Maybe you should listen to someone who plays one. People claim they are broken and don't try to figure out what the players doing to defeat them. They aren't broken. I play Rev in WvW most of the time these days(and lead on a Rev) and easily defeat soulbeasts. Too many people get frustrated because they used to walk all over rangers and now they can't. They ostracized rangers from zergs and now claim they're OP. Kind of the opposite of what should be done.

If anything the mobility of thieves, mesmers and warriors are out of whack. Warriors are ridiculous on the invulns and blocks.

i'm not at all saying warrior isn't broken. and mesmer is broken with it's amount of invulnerability up time. but ranger has the same amount of mobility as a thief with GS 3 and bird pet, being able to 100 to 0 people with double axe and raven pull combo while also having perma protection plus lots of boonshare from it's pet is simply not fair for anyone on the receiving end. a decent ranger will run from every fight it's about to lose with it's unmatched mobility and regen, AND if you get rooted, stun breaks don't work on them so have fun standing there for 10 seconds. it needs to be said that in a roaming scenario, ranger is the strongest in the game. they aren't wanted in zergs because zergs require lots of AoE and LB 5 isn't much for AoE and that's a whole new discussion.

[Xion.5694]

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Xion.5694 said:Hi Cal,

So what are your comments on already posted feedback?Love to hear.Thanks!

You’re new here aren’t you? ?

But more seriously, he responded to several things on the first page, and I wouldn’t expect a response to the bulk of items TBH.

But the other aspect of my concern is that, as someone else Pointed out, this has been the trend:

• come in and offer some items
• Respond for a day or two
• Not see someone for weeks at a time.

And that is where some of us are concerned about this latest foray.

Oh no, I'm not new. Trust me.

As they are eager to have a discussion I'm just waiting for their part. I see that playerbase shared a lot now, so its about time for Anet to speak.

[XenesisII.1540]

He meant to say "you're new to the wvw forum aren't you?"

Don't expect any dialogue from the devs especially in the wvw section, post your opinions on class balance and move on. They'll probably read most of the thread, but they'll be making changes according to whatever they deem fit to do, and we won't know about it until they're ready to deploy it.

[Mikhael.2391]

@"XenesisII.1540" said:He meant to say "you're new to the wvw forum aren't you?"

Don't expect any dialogue from the devs especially in the wvw section, post your opinions on class balance and move on. They'll probably read most of the thread, but they'll be making changes according to whatever they deem fit to do, and we won't know about it until they're ready to deploy it.

Stealth has been the most addressed thing so far so lets see what they do about it if something.

[Strider Pj.2193]

@"XenesisII.1540" said:He meant to say "you're new to the wvw forum aren't you?"

Don't expect any dialogue from the devs especially in the wvw section, post your opinions on class balance and move on. They'll probably read most of the thread, but they'll be making changes according to whatever they deem fit to do, and we won't know about it until they're ready to deploy it.

^ What he said. ^

[Iozeph.5617]

@Mikhael.2391 said:

@"XenesisII.1540" said:He meant to say "you're new to the wvw forum aren't you?"

Don't expect any dialogue from the devs especially in the wvw section, post your opinions on class balance and move on. They'll probably read most of the thread, but they'll be making changes according to whatever they deem fit to do, and we won't know about it until they're ready to deploy it.

Stealth has been the most addressed thing so far so lets see what they do about it if something.

Why? Is it time for the obligatory, 'Yo dawg, I heard you hate stealth so Ima put you some stealth on top of your stealth on top of even more stealth..." posts to begin?

[Steeve.5193]

GS ranger was giving possibity to team play in small and large scall in wvw, it's not viable enough for players to play GS without dodge on last hit it was the only thing of ranger to play with other player who arn't other ranger... Now you must keep longbow or just stay solo roamer or having too much sustain for to be usefull...

[miguelsil.6324]

@Iozeph.5617 said:

@Mikhael.2391 said:

@"XenesisII.1540" said:He meant to say "you're new to the wvw forum aren't you?"

Don't expect any dialogue from the devs especially in the wvw section, post your opinions on class balance and move on. They'll probably read most of the thread, but they'll be making changes according to whatever they deem fit to do, and we won't know about it until they're ready to deploy it.

Stealth has been the most addressed thing so far so lets see what they do about it if something.

Why? Is it time for the obligatory, 'Yo dawg, I heard you hate stealth so Ima put you some stealth on top of your stealth on top of

even

more

stealth..." posts to begin?

Just pointed out what one of the if not most complaint thing in this post was and has been for years now, so its not just one person but seevral including ones that play the classes that abuse stealth.

And seems like everyone that is too used to it and its rewards are afraid that their life will stop being easy.

[Iozeph.5617]

@miguelsil.6324 said:

@Iozeph.5617 said:

@Mikhael.2391 said:

@"XenesisII.1540" said:He meant to say "you're new to the wvw forum aren't you?"

Don't expect any dialogue from the devs especially in the wvw section, post your opinions on class balance and move on. They'll probably read most of the thread, but they'll be making changes according to whatever they deem fit to do, and we won't know about it until they're ready to deploy it.

Stealth has been the most addressed thing so far so lets see what they do about it if something.

Why? Is it time for the obligatory, 'Yo dawg, I heard you hate stealth so Ima put you some stealth on top of your stealth on top of

even

more

stealth..." posts to begin?

Just pointed out what one of the if not most complaint thing in this post was and has been for years now, so its not just one person but seevral including ones that play the classes that abuse stealth.

And seems like everyone that is too used to it and its rewards are afraid that their life will stop being easy.

Life would probably be even easier for some if you removed stealth, just not in the way most would figure. They'd either have to remove thieves or exalt other facets of the profession to compensate. This would mean more evade frames, more access to dodge, more applications of blindness per unit time, or ways to make enemies drop target via misdirection etc. And everyone's favourite of course- more damage.

Removing stealth just means your fights against thieves are going to be over that much quicker and probably not in your favour. That's what happens when you build an entire profession around such a dodgy mechanic. The mechanic could disappear if Anet wanted but it's far too late to just take the profession away from so many players.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Iozeph.5617 said:

@miguelsil.6324 said:

@Iozeph.5617 said:

@Mikhael.2391 said:

@"XenesisII.1540" said:He meant to say "you're new to the wvw forum aren't you?"

Don't expect any dialogue from the devs especially in the wvw section, post your opinions on class balance and move on. They'll probably read most of the thread, but they'll be making changes according to whatever they deem fit to do, and we won't know about it until they're ready to deploy it.

Stealth has been the most addressed thing so far so lets see what they do about it if something.

Why? Is it time for the obligatory, 'Yo dawg, I heard you hate stealth so Ima put you some stealth on top of your stealth on top of

even

more

stealth..." posts to begin?

Just pointed out what one of the if not most complaint thing in this post was and has been for years now, so its not just one person but seevral including ones that play the classes that abuse stealth.

And seems like everyone that is too used to it and its rewards are afraid that their life will stop being easy.

Life would probably be even easier for some if you removed stealth, just not in the way most would figure. They'd either have to remove thieves or exalt other facets of the profession to compensate. This would mean more evade frames, more access to dodge, more applications of blindness per unit time, or ways to make enemies drop target via misdirection etc. And everyone's favourite of course- more damage.

Removing stealth just means your fights against thieves are going to be over that much quicker and probably not in your favour. That's what happens when you build an entire profession around such a dodgy mechanic. The mechanic could disappear if Anet wanted but it's far too late to just take the profession away from so many players.

That and rogue is kinda a staple mmo archetype

[Black para goner.7612]

Great post.For me I'd say something to look at are the base professions. HoT and PoF professions are so much stronger than the base. I know they're from the expansion so it's good to make the newer things more powerful, but it's not fun playing most of them in WvW as it's not possible at a effective level.

Also some of the old skills need updating, heals and utilises. I play Engineer mostly so for example is Mine field. It has no use in WvW. I understand as you said just changing values won't really help some skills, and I think this maybe one of them. But it also doesn't really have a balance in any game mode... And there are many skills like that.I believe you need to start looking at the things no one is using and then question why that is. Is it the damage is low, or too hard to pull off? To easily countered or maybe there's just much more viable options.

[YMIHere.9580]

With the skill splits is it time for a wvw lobby with bots to test on?

[fewfield.7802]

I wish that the large-scale competitive mode like wvw should focus more on player’s skill than numbers.

I actually think that a small decent group of player should be able to take down a larger group with lower skill play.ex. 15 man group with DECENT coordination should be able to take down 30-40 pug group.This will encourage people to actually get good in wvw to be rewarded instead of stacking numbers against each other.

At this state of the game, everything is all about spamming such as boons, healing, and corrupt. We need less coordination between players.I still love pre-PoF patch that Guardian needed to sort out stab rotation, Rev needed to rotate Dwarf’s Elite skills for dmg reduction, and Necro had less corrupt spam. All of that gave me the real sense of players working together. and I believe a lot of people love it.

Please bring it back.

[Dawdler.8521]

@fewfield.7802 said:I wish that the large-scale competitive mode like wvw should focus more on player’s skill than numbers.

I actually think that a small decent group of player should be able to take down a larger group with lower skill play.ex. 15 man group with DECENT coordination should be able to take down 30-40 pug group.This will encourage people to actually get good in wvw to be rewarded instead of stacking numbers against each other.

At this state of the game, everything is all about spamming such as boons, healing, and corrupt. We need less coordination between players.I still love pre-PoF patch that Guardian needed to sort out stab rotation, Rev needed to rotate Dwarf’s Elite skills for dmg reduction, and Necro had less corrupt spam. All of that gave me the real sense of players working together. and I believe a lot of people love it.

Please bring it back.It never left. 1:2 victories are still very much possible.

[fewfield.7802]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@fewfield.7802 said:I wish that the large-scale competitive mode like wvw should focus more on player’s skill than numbers.

I actually think that a small decent group of player should be able to take down a larger group with lower skill play.ex. 15 man group with DECENT coordination should be able to take down 30-40 pug group.This will encourage people to actually get good in wvw to be rewarded instead of stacking numbers against each other.

At this state of the game, everything is all about spamming such as boons, healing, and corrupt. We need less coordination between players.I still love pre-PoF patch that Guardian needed to sort out stab rotation, Rev needed to rotate Dwarf’s Elite skills for dmg reduction, and Necro had less corrupt spam. All of that gave me the real sense of players working together. and I believe a lot of people love it.

Please bring it back.It never left. 1:2 victories are still very much possible.

Only if those bigger numbers have half brains, it's barely possible. Due to the amount of boon and corrupt spammed.

You need almost 30 people to win 40-50.Btw, in this case, I just assume that both sides are running the same proper classes and comp.(I am not talking about fighting a squad which half of them are roaming classes.)

[cobbah.3102]

Change the range of skills like , scourge AOE ,ranger 1800 really?, thief 1200 is sufficient , delete perma stealth , failing that make siege useful again and not to favour the attackers . Or roll it all back to pre-hot.

[Noerknhar.3826]

Before we address the overall balance, wouldn't it make sense to fix the current bugs?Imagine you reworked the balance, then fixed bugs, and the unbugged skills would show to be too powerful (or not powerful enough), the newly created balance would be gone again.

e.g.https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/89013/coalescence-of-ruin-targeting-bugged-after-patch#latest

[Dawdler.8521]

@fewfield.7802 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@fewfield.7802 said:I wish that the large-scale competitive mode like wvw should focus more on player’s skill than numbers.

I actually think that a small decent group of player should be able to take down a larger group with lower skill play.ex. 15 man group with DECENT coordination should be able to take down 30-40 pug group.This will encourage people to actually get good in wvw to be rewarded instead of stacking numbers against each other.

At this state of the game, everything is all about spamming such as boons, healing, and corrupt. We need less coordination between players.I still love pre-PoF patch that Guardian needed to sort out stab rotation, Rev needed to rotate Dwarf’s Elite skills for dmg reduction, and Necro had less corrupt spam. All of that gave me the real sense of players working together. and I believe a lot of people love it.

Please bring it back.It never left. 1:2 victories are still very much possible.

Only if those bigger numbers have half brains, it's barely possible. Due to the amount of boon and corrupt spammed.

You need almost 30 people to win 40-50.Btw, in this case, I just assume that both sides are running the same proper classes and comp.(I am not talking about fighting a squad which half of them are roaming classes.)

You said in your post

"ex. 15 man group with DECENT coordination should be able to take down 30-40 pug group."

, not that you assumed equally skilled players with proper classes and comps. Because that makes no sense in a balanced game.

Just like 1 player fight 1, 2, 3+ becomes exponentially harder which each additional enemy. Technically no one should win 1v2 because all classes on proper builds are capable of at least taking 50% hp on an enemy before they die... But it still happens.

But you also say "You need almost 30 people to win 40-50."Well yeah. Thats almost 1:2, given some slack, assuming all in the first group are skilled and extras in the second group are not so much.

So whats the problem? Can we or cant we do it today?

[miguelsil.6324]

So whats the problem? Can we or cant we do it today?

I think the way its done its the problem, unlike small scale where you actually feel useful and can see results on the decision to use THAT ability in that timing etc when you have over 10 people as long as you are hugging each other and spamming buttons with little thinking needed folowing the tag like lemmings its just not fun even tho it gets the job done.

There is no focusing a single target and instead you focus the area around that target which makes it so much less fun.

[Meviken.2054]

@"Heibi.4251" said:

5. Pulls need to be more line of sight based. Too many times have I seen people pulled out of a tower or keep when they are on the stairs down below the wall.

Pulls need to be line of sight (from the character's eyes, not the camera) only, or perhaps a reasonable area of effect with the center of it in line of sight. 1500 is not a reasonable area. 180 might be.

I think they do this by shifting their camera view to be able to see the character -- it's in "line of sight" from the player's point of view, but not the character's point of view.

[Meviken.2054]

@Jaden.1420 said:I'll try to add my thoughts:

• Classes like Firebrand, Scourge or Spellbreaker are natural choices for zerg fights and will (and should) stay relevant in the future. I can understand, however, that players get bored with that meta after 2+ years without a new expansion. So I'd propose frequent events that mess with the game balance for a limited time. Like No elite specializations or Every day another class is banned or No boons etc. You could use the following feedback for your balance decisions.

I think it's a great idea. Even if they're not testing new ideas for balance.

Like... what if Kralkatorrik owned SMC for a week?

[Dawdler.8521]

@Meviken.2054 said:

@Jaden.1420 said:I'll try to add my thoughts:

• Classes like Firebrand, Scourge or Spellbreaker are natural choices for zerg fights and will (and should) stay relevant in the future. I can understand, however, that players get bored with that meta after 2+ years without a new expansion. So I'd propose
  frequent events that mess with the game balance
  for a limited time. Like No elite specializations or Every day another class is banned or No boons etc. You could use the following feedback for your balance decisions.

I think it's a great idea. Even if they're not testing new ideas for balance.

Like... what if Kralkatorrik owned SMC for a week?Would be heaven for PvE lovers, ie all WvWers.

[Aeolus.3615]

Reduce aoe overall but give larger cap to very very few skills on higher CD....

This would be a good start.