imagine :)

Psycoprophet.8107 · October 30, 2019

@ZDragon.3046 said:
@rowdy.5107 said:
@Koen.1327 said:
@Psycoprophet.8107 said:
@ZDragon.3046 said:
@Psycoprophet.8107 said:
@ZDragon.3046 said:
@Psycoprophet.8107 said:
@ZDragon.3046 said:
@Psycoprophet.8107 said:
@Jekkt.6045 said:
@foste.3098 said:@Killthehealersffs.8940 @Psycoprophet.8107staff/staff daredevil is op in the sense that it warps the game around it since only particular builds can deal with it.But i am 100% against nerfing staff to the point of un-play ability, which seams like it will be the case, just because 1 degenerate build poped up and is abusing the on swap trait and sigils to bunker points. Daredevil was never meant to be a bunker but a bruiser, there is a big difference there.

i don't see the problem with a build being extremely defensive to keep a node. this is what conquest is about. as for thief, evades is just the only way you can do it, but people seem to hate everything they can't hit.

as for the on swap stuff, you're wrong. caed (i think) once polarized a double s/d build back in the times of dhumfire necro and spirit ranger with the same ini on weapon swap trait. as usual, it got nerfed because people in the history of gw2 have always complained about evades.

if thief evades and stealth keep getting nerfed, how about giving thief an actual build that doesn't rely on them?

This^ its halarious to me that the community spouts op on any thief build that has a chance at 1v1'ing than turns around and complains about thieves always disengaging during fights and how it's unfair. So according to the community thief shouldn't be able to hold its ground because of the mobility it has but at the same time shouldn't be able to have the mobility to constantly disengage due to not being able to hold it's ground lol its beyond funny. The staff/staff build dps isnt near what most dps builds do like if DA or CS was opted for instead of acro. Most other high deeps builds on other classes do more to. So staff/staff is basically a stall build that uses timed evades to sustain due to EVADES being it's way of sustain and its OP? So a warrior or any classes using their multiple passive and active sustain options while having high bursts is ok but a thief that spams evades cuz it's how it lives is OP? Why is any thief build that can somewhat stand its ground op? And why is it OP if thief has mobility if it doesn't have the ability to hold its ground ie disengage? So is thief supposed to be weak 1v1 and have low sustain/hp with just ok disengage potential? Sounds like a viable class to me lol. I hope I'm wrong but I can see the thief class as a whole being basically erased by these new devs with the help of the vocal gw2 community that has little care to the long term health of the game and only want their preferred classes to be in great spots while being barely contested by others, been this way for a long time now.

So you want to be necormancer with high mobility in a nutshell?The issue is not that it can 1v1

The issue is that while its 1v1'ing its not very subjective to any kind of retaliation other than on hit procs such as retaliation and auras both of which are extremely rare among the professions. Retaliations being limited to mostly guardian and auras like shocking aura being limited to only tempest and base ele for the most part.People dont mind you having lots of evades or a modest amount of stealth what people do mind is not having enough common tools spread throughout the game to combat it. Literally nothing except shocking aura stops that style of play for any decent amount of time and only should the thief choose to strike the aura buffed target.If a build does not allow for others to retaliate reasonably during a moment of down time then that build needs to be adjusted its simple.

No one cares if you get the power to 1v1 people care if they don't ever have a proper turn to fight you back though.

My issue is that when a thief build is buffed into a spot where its somewhat a viable 1v1 build without relying on one shot cheap mechanics its deemed OP because it constantly evades. How else would it sustain long enough in the fight if evades are its main defensive mechanic, of course it would have to evade enough to sustain itself in a fight to win it.I wouldnt really say staff was buffed though that staff bug has been there for a long time and people just didnt abuse it very bluntly. Its not until it was heavily abused to chain evades for long periods did it become a problem.I cant recall any buffs to staff or daredevil that made a super significant change to make it 1v1 viable. As far as i know its just as viable as its always been. Lastly its we have to remember the game is not only balanced around 1v1. I even forget this from time to time myself.

Daredevil will still have plenty of evades to sustain itself for an extended period of time. Will you be able to do it for extremely long periods of time without the staff 3 jump fix? No. Will you have bigger gaps between your evades? Yes. Overall not that much is changing staff dodge will still be a viable build but it wont be as 1 sided as it is now.Like i said if there were more tools that could counter such an evasive style of play across the game in general no one would likely minded it. But evasive play styles are a big topic right now considering

So if a thieves evades are to op because they can allow the thief to stay in the fight long enough(doesn't have passive sustain/hp or invulnerability) than how will a thief sustain itself in the fight long enough to win? They can't have a burst buff to shorten ttk so they wouldnt need sustain cuz the community will cry, they already cry about them disengaging all the time due to low sustain so.... and now being g able to evade long enough to sustain the fight is OP lmao it's seriously halarious. Like I said can't wait to see where thief's at in a yr. Not being g able to combat it is BS as I'm not a amazing player myself yet I've had zero issues taking down staff thieves in every rank game I've played. There was a few that took a while to down so I left them but they weren't a big threat to me yet I can face half the other classes that take a while to down as well but can burst u in secs with far more deeps like warrior,holo,slb etc and on top the DD has one burst rotation so it's easy to know what its gonna do,other classes have many but because it's a thief build when community gets all in arms.Good stuff!

Why do you assume the evades should last you until

"you win"

that in itself is not a healthy way of thinking how the evades should be balanced.The evades should last you long enough to give you a chance to win with the tools you have at hand (your weapon skills combined with your utilities and mind tactics). The evades should not last you in-defiantly until you do win just because if i fight you long enough i should win.

Ranger gs auto had an evade tied to its final strike and people would intentionally try to strike nothing with it so to proc the evade multiple times (2-3 times in a row) which was surely not the intentional use of the skill originally, it was fixed to not reward abusive un intentional behavior. I dont see why fixing the jump +3 on dd staff should not get the same treatment obviously the skill was never intended to be used like that. and using it in such away makes it far more powerful of a tool than what it really was designed to be.

I agree some of these other classes have too much damage and or too much defense to go along with that damage and hopefully they will be getting the shorter end of the stick than thief when the nerfs start hitting.

But they don't. Pls don't come to me with the infinite dodge hyperbole. Might as well say thief has infinite ini and endurance which it most defenitly doesn't. They cannot evade for ever for one and second of all if evading is their only real sustain method why shouldn't they be able to long enough to have a chance at winning a fight?

You know what i mean. ITs not literally infinite but its enough to be considered such if you last for 2-3 minutes on dodges then no that should not be a thing lastly.This should mostly be a bug fix if your build hinges on a bug or unintentional use of a skill then thats not a good thing for your class or for anyone else.I wont go back and forth with you over and over again.If you think the amount of evade access is across the dodges, endurance restoration traits and skills, and weapon skills then i dont know what to tell you. ive seen thieves and 1v1 people and win with far less than what the staff / dodge build offers so lets not even go there.

Once again its also about the fact that that build with that bug has very limited counter-play. To counter something you need to be able to combat it. You cant effectively combat someone who is just dodging for the majority of a fight. Similarly You cannot combat someone who is invisible for the majority of a fight. When i say majority of a fight i 0mean 75% or more of the fights total time. With evades (which also do damage) specifically, because there are no un-dodgeable damage mechanics in pvp expect people to call out something should it get out of hand.

U do realize with full ini supplemented with prepardness u can use st3 like 3 times than swap to get another 3 ini and by than u wait a sec to have enough for a fourth. That's all ur global resource gone for all skills. So a thief monkey bouncing using ini on vault is gonna be able to consistantly use the st3 jump bug only so often . It's not like u cam just sit and spam vault and st3 continually with some bounds in between for infinite evade. I'm gonna low ball peeps claims here and challenge anyone to post a vid of a staff/staff DD evading for 1 minute real time continually. I'd be interested in seeing it.

Just watch monthly vids and you see staff thieves evading the entire game long not just 1 minute

Every staff video ive seen, Staff thief gets squished after he uses up all his Ini and he fails to escape. Just like literally every other thief... Nothing different there.

Well thats what happens when you use up all your defense being offensive. Same thing happens with condi thief should you happen to catch them after they spam evade around you should the conditions not kill you.

But it really depends on the build and knowing how to balance endurance restoration with dodges and ini.That said there is no excuse for skill abuse to this level. The skill abuse was fine when it was rare to see it used but once it gets public and everyone under the sun starts using it abuse will not be tolerated. Thief is not the first class to fall victim to this.

But but that shouldn't happen cuz they have match long evade potential and literally can evade until they win all engagements right ;)

Koen.1327 · October 30, 2019

Did you guys even watch the monthly vids?You have to put the amount of evades in the right context, no class can put enough pressure for the thief to run out of evade frames so it is indeed the whole game long.

Psycoprophet.8107 · October 30, 2019

Any thief player that's played it as a main has used the staff/staff build or some iteration of it many times. To a non thief player it can seem like thief is evading a high amount of time during the fight and ur right it is compared to ur two dodges and maybe ur evade frame in a skill if u have one but I'd even be surprised to see a DD evade repeatedly over 20 sec real time. But u add in ur blocks, invulnerability, higher hp/armor etc the evade time isn't so op especially when they've dropped their deeps to do so. I've followed behind guards,warriors,holes,scrappers and to lesser extent soulbeast repeatedly attacking them while the timely use all their sustain options rendering them as unkillable as a staff thief. Especially guards and warriors and the dont give up nearly as much deeps as a bunker DD does.Again its thief so it needs to be tanked, nothing new lol.

rowdy.5107 · October 30, 2019

All these thief threads are from people that die to thieves and are either too lazy to learn the mechanics or are using a class that shouldn't be trying to engage a thief in the first place.

Psycoprophet.8107 · October 30, 2019

Guaranteed had build been left as is within what's left of the year people would learn to counter it and it be considered not viable competitively. People aren't used to seeing it so haven't gotten used to fighting it and dont want to cuz again, it's a thief spec.

Jekkt.6045 · October 30, 2019

@"ZDragon.3046" said:No one cares if you get the power to 1v1 people care if they don't ever have a proper turn to fight you back though.

That's exactly what the bug fix will achieve tho. both staff 5 and 3 have an aftercast that can be punished (without the jump bug). Yet, anet is willing to overnerf a build just to "make sure it doesn't get played in the next mAT" with plans to nerf the traits even more in a later patch, and maybe revert the ini change on staff 3.

During the time i've played this game, thief has always gotten nerfed because people qq about the class more than anything else. are some nerfs justified? of course. is every nerf justified? absolutely not.

at launch we had the signet and backstab nerfs, later came the d/d and s/d nerfs, after that the s/p nerfs followed by more s/d nerfs and d/p nerfs. when daredevil came out they nerfed pulmonary impact to oblivion, nerfed vault, nerfed the endurance regeneration. deadeye was just another fiasco.

thief is build wise in a good spot right now. you have a rotationally strong build in s/d, a good? +1 build in d/p, a build that's capable of taking 1v1 in condi s/d and a tank build in st/st. half of that's going to be taken away, relegating thief back to a rotation tool.

i'm not particularly attached to thief, i think it's a terrbily designed class, but i'm against removing builds that play differently, as thief builds up to now have always fallen in that "assassin" category.

Azure The Heartless.3261 · October 30, 2019

@rowdy.5107 said:All these thief threads are from people that ... are using a class that shouldn't be trying to engage a thief in the first place.

Just pointing out that ideally, this situation shouldn't exist. Classes should be able to counterplay all playstyles within their class at baseline whether that includes picking up a different weapon or trait build or not.

EDIT: Also....wow. That hotfix is live. Like, now.

That was quick.

Vicariuz.1605 · October 30, 2019

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:
@ZDragon.3046 said:
@Psycoprophet.8107 said:
@Jekkt.6045 said:
@foste.3098 said:@Killthehealersffs.8940 @Psycoprophet.8107staff/staff daredevil is op in the sense that it warps the game around it since only particular builds can deal with it.But i am 100% against nerfing staff to the point of un-play ability, which seams like it will be the case, just because 1 degenerate build poped up and is abusing the on swap trait and sigils to bunker points. Daredevil was never meant to be a bunker but a bruiser, there is a big difference there.

i don't see the problem with a build being extremely defensive to keep a node. this is what conquest is about. as for thief, evades is just the only way you can do it, but people seem to hate everything they can't hit.

as for the on swap stuff, you're wrong. caed (i think) once polarized a double s/d build back in the times of dhumfire necro and spirit ranger with the same ini on weapon swap trait. as usual, it got nerfed because people in the history of gw2 have always complained about evades.

if thief evades and stealth keep getting nerfed, how about giving thief an actual build that doesn't rely on them?

This^ its halarious to me that the community spouts op on any thief build that has a chance at 1v1'ing than turns around and complains about thieves always disengaging during fights and how it's unfair. So according to the community thief shouldn't be able to hold its ground because of the mobility it has but at the same time shouldn't be able to have the mobility to constantly disengage due to not being able to hold it's ground lol its beyond funny. The staff/staff build dps isnt near what most dps builds do like if DA or CS was opted for instead of acro. Most other high deeps builds on other classes do more to. So staff/staff is basically a stall build that uses timed evades to sustain due to EVADES being it's way of sustain and its OP? So a warrior or any classes using their multiple passive and active sustain options while having high bursts is ok but a thief that spams evades cuz it's how it lives is OP? Why is any thief build that can somewhat stand its ground op? And why is it OP if thief has mobility if it doesn't have the ability to hold its ground ie disengage? So is thief supposed to be weak 1v1 and have low sustain/hp with just ok disengage potential? Sounds like a viable class to me lol. I hope I'm wrong but I can see the thief class as a whole being basically erased by these new devs with the help of the vocal gw2 community that has little care to the long term health of the game and only want their preferred classes to be in great spots while being barely contested by others, been this way for a long time now.

So you want to be necormancer with high mobility in a nutshell?The issue is not that it can 1v1

The issue is that while its 1v1'ing its not very subjective to any kind of retaliation other than on hit procs such as retaliation and auras both of which are extremely rare among the professions. Retaliations being limited to mostly guardian and auras like shocking aura being limited to only tempest and base ele for the most part.People dont mind you having lots of evades or a modest amount of stealth what people do mind is not having enough common tools spread throughout the game to combat it. Literally nothing except shocking aura stops that style of play for any decent amount of time and only should the thief choose to strike the aura buffed target.If a build does not allow for others to retaliate reasonably during a moment of down time then that build needs to be adjusted its simple.

No one cares if you get the power to 1v1 people care if they don't ever have a proper turn to fight you back though.

My issue is that when a thief build is buffed into a spot where its somewhat a viable 1v1 build without relying on one shot cheap mechanics its deemed OP because it constantly evades. How else would it sustain long enough in the fight if evades are its main defensive mechanic, of course it would have to evade enough to sustain itself in a fight to win it.So if a thieves evades are to op because they can allow the thief to stay in the fight long enough(doesn't have passive sustain/hp or invulnerability) than how will a thief sustain itself in the fight long enough to win? They can't have a burst buff to shorten ttk so they wouldnt need sustain cuz the community will cry, they already cry about them disengaging all the time due to low sustain so.... and now being g able to evade long enough to sustain the fight is OP lmao it's seriously halarious. Like I said can't wait to see where thief's at in a yr. Not being able to combat it is BS as I'm not a amazing player myself yet I've had zero issues taking down staff thieves in every rank game I've played. There was a few that took a while to down so I left them but they weren't a big threat to me yet I can face half the other classes that take a while to down as well but can burst u in secs with far more deeps like warrior,holo,slb etc and on top the DD has one burst rotation so it's easy to know what its gonna do,other classes have many but because it's a thief build when community gets all in arms.Good stuff!

Let's not pretend that staff staff is "somewhat viable." Like let's just stop right there. Chaining evade frames by abusing a bug should be fixed plain and simple. When a build hard counters entire classes (not just other builds), while 1v2 and 1v3, there is an OBVIOUS problem.

Stop downplaying how abusive the spec is.

Let's also stop pretending like this build is what is bringing thief into use at high levels, there are 4-5 builds I can think of off the top of my head (being core, dd, deadeye) that are all extremely powerful (and being used to win monthly tournaments). IDK what ur gameplan is but the constant downplaying of the build with some "lol" at the end isn't going to make ur case. You are doing EXACTLY what people before you, who had no idea what they were talking about, did and you can reference the OP to see it.

This isn't about ranked games, which are completely meaningless and riddled with low skill players, win trading, throwing, leaderboard rank selling, etc. This is about ACTUAL games at what's left of the top tier of this game. Watch a monthly AT for once and understand what's going on. In another post u apparently have never even seen this in action since u think its impressive that it will evade chain (which can't be punished because of bug abuse) "for 20 seconds" well feel free to watch sindrener (repeated monthly tournament winner as a thief) vods or the NA mAT on jebro's.

btw it's evade chaining for almost a minute straight not just in 1v1, but in 1v2 and 1v3. If u think thats fine idk what there is to say because u have a very jaded and misguided understanding of the game.

Psycoprophet.8107 · October 30, 2019

@Vicariuz.1605 said:
@Psycoprophet.8107 said:
@ZDragon.3046 said:
@Psycoprophet.8107 said:
@Jekkt.6045 said:
@foste.3098 said:@Killthehealersffs.8940 @Psycoprophet.8107staff/staff daredevil is op in the sense that it warps the game around it since only particular builds can deal with it.But i am 100% against nerfing staff to the point of un-play ability, which seams like it will be the case, just because 1 degenerate build poped up and is abusing the on swap trait and sigils to bunker points. Daredevil was never meant to be a bunker but a bruiser, there is a big difference there.