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Potential Future Balance Changes - PvP


Cal Cohen.2358

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  • ArenaNet Staff

Hi Everyone,

We’ve done some work on the next balance update and wanted to share some of the potential changes for discussion and feedback. As a reminder, this update is intended to be smaller but more targeted to address major issues within the game mode as we work toward some major changes in a future update. This is also not the full list of changes for the update, just the ones targeted at PvP.

The goal of this update on the competitive side is not to nerf everything that deserves a nerf, but to bring overperforming builds back in line. There are aspects of every meta build (and even some non-meta builds) that could reasonably be nerfed, but since we’re already looking ahead to a major shakeup we’re more focused on balancing around the current power level for now.

In particular we’re looking at:

  • Condi Thief
  • Holosmith
  • Condi Mirage
  • Rampage
  • Warrior’s Cunning
  • Revisiting Staff Thief

General

  • Sigil of Agility has been removed from the PvP build panel

This came up again as we were looking at holosmith quickness but is something we’ve been considering for a long time. Quickness in general is something that we’re looking at for the future update, but in the short-term we feel that this sigil is too easily accessible for the power it provides.

Condi ThiefThe main issue we’re looking to address with condi thief is the initial burst potential. Long term there are definitely questions about how this build is applying conditions, but for now we want to push it more toward a grindy build than a bursty one.

  • Spider Venom: Reduced poison duration from 6 seconds to 3 seconds in PvP only
  • Serpent's Touch: Reduced poison stacks from 2 to 1 in PvP only

HolosmithHolosmith quickness has been a big point of feedback and we’re planning to make some adjustments there. Removing Sigil of Agility was part of this, and we’re also looking at a minor nerf to Kinetic Battery.

This leaves Elixir U. We’re considering a quickness reduction here as well, but are currently leaning toward an interesting change that’s worth discussing. That change being a heavy reduction of the stability granted. The goal of this change is to leave U as the big quickness skill, but also open the door for more counterplay. This would give opportunity to avoid Corona Burst and then CC the holosmith instead of just getting run over by quickness.

  • Kinetic Battery: Reduced quickness duration from 5 seconds to 3 seconds in PvP only
  • Elixir U: Reduced stability duration from 6 seconds to 1 second in PvP only

Condi MirageWe understand that Mirage Cloak is a big point of contention and we’ve been having discussions internally, but it isn’t something that we’ll be ready to action for this update. As we get closer to our desired solution we’ll start to talk about it more with you all, but in the meantime we’re looking at some more general changes. Primarily toning down clone generation and reducing some damage potential of staff, pushing it more toward a utility kit.

  • Illusionary Counter: Reduced the number of clones spawned on block from 2 to 1 in PvP only
  • Phantasmal Warlock:
    • Reduced the number of warlocks spawned from 2 to 1 in PvP only.
    • Increased the vulnerability applied per hit from 2 stacks to 4 stacks in PvP only
  • Chaos Vortex:
    • Reduced bleed duration from 8 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP only.
    • Reduced burn duration from 2 seconds to 1 second in PvP only.
    • Reduced Torment duration from 8 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP only

RampageRampage has been overperforming since the initial change that brought its cooldown to 90 seconds, and continues to with the cooldown at 120 seconds. Rather than just bumping up the cooldown again, we’re looking to address an underlying issue: hard CC skills also doing large amounts of damage. This is something that we’re looking to do across the board for the future update, and we see Rampage as a good opportunity to see the idea in action.

  • Rampage skills have been adjusted as follows
    • Kick: Power coefficient reduced from 1.2 to 0.01 in PvP only
    • Throw Boulder: Power coefficient reduced from 2.0 to 0.01 in PvP only
    • Seismic Leap: Power coefficient reduced from 1.6 to 0.01 in PvP only

Warrior’s CunningWe’re making an adjustment to bring Warrior’s Cunning more in-line with other damage traits.

  • Warrior's Cunning: Reduced damage bonus against targets above 90% health from 25% to 7% in PvP only. Reduced damage bonus against targets with barrier from 50% to 10% in PvP only.

Staff ThiefAs mentioned the other day, we want to revisit the recent change to Debilitating Arc for the next balance update. There are still concerns about putting it back to 4 initiative, but it doesn’t really make sense for it to coexist with Vault at 6. We’re reducing the cost to 5 while making some minor adjustments to Quick Pockets and Staff Master.

  • Quick Pockets: Reduced initiative gained on weapon swap from 3 to 2 in PvP only
  • Staff Master: Reduced endurance gain per initiative spent from 2 to 1 in PvP only
  • Debilitating Arc: Reduced initiative cost from 6 to 5 in PvP only

Remember that these changes are not locked down and we still have time to iterate. We look forward to your thoughts and feedback.

-The Systems Team

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Condi thief is just about reducing burst rn so a real fix is hard. Staff master is super busted rn so I think that thief change is super good. Other than that most changes look good for example rampage damage is way too high and that’ll completely fix thatO yeah and big problem of Holosmith is quickness but not sure if that alone will satisfy everyone but it’s a good start

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If someone gets behind or sidesteps the holosmith when they are casting Corona Burst, the holosmith shouldn't automatically turn to face the target that moved out of the way. It's already a very strong skill, it shouldn't also auto face target because it has such a long range. And to be frank, holosmith has so much CC, i don't see why holosmiths aren't encouraged to use their CC wisely for timing big attacks like corona burst instead of relying on auto-facing.

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@Chaith.8256 said:My poor Scrapper that used Sigil of Agility, Elixir U, and Elixir X for Rampage is rocking back and forth in the corner. Too bad

Good point! Will elixir X be affected by this change it seems like the one in reference is warrior?

@Cal Cohen.2358 said:

RampageRampage has been overperforming since the initial change that brought its cooldown to 90 seconds, and continues to with the cooldown at 120 seconds. Rather than just bumping up the cooldown again, we’re looking to address an underlying issue: hard CC skills also doing large amounts of damage. This is something that we’re looking to do across the board for the future update, and we see Rampage as a good opportunity to see the idea in action.

  • Rampage skills have been adjusted as follows
    • Kick: Power coefficient reduced from 1.2 to 0.01 in PvP only
    • Throw Boulder: Power coefficient reduced from 2.0 to 0.01 in PvP only
    • Seismic Leap: Power coefficient reduced from 1.6 to 0.01 in PvP only

Wouldn’t mind clarification?

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@Dantheman.3589 said:Condi thief is just about reducing burst rn so a real fix is hard. Staff master is super busted rn so I think that thief change is super good. Other than that most changes look good for example rampage damage is way too high and that’ll completely fix thatO yeah and big problem of Holosmith is quickness but not sure if that alone will satisfy everyone but it’s a good start

Condi DD initial burst is an abuse after that is just poison autos that will result ininterrupts

Imo it’s just the initial condi burst that way to much.

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@Aeolus.3615 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:Condi thief is just about reducing burst rn so a real fix is hard. Staff master is super busted rn so I think that thief change is super good. Other than that most changes look good for example rampage damage is way too high and that’ll completely fix thatO yeah and big problem of Holosmith is quickness but not sure if that alone will satisfy everyone but it’s a good start

Condi DD initial burst is an abuse after that is just poison autos that will result ininterrupts

Imo it’s just the initial condi burst that way to much.

How is it an abuse? I don’t recall one since they fixed deadly ambition hitting multiple times on cluster bomb... it what your saying is it’s really strong then yes your probably correct. And that’s exactly why a small burst nerf won’t fix it entirely. Condi thief has many ways to do damage and all are enhanced by deadly ambition, so it’s not just the burst but this could be a start

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Removing Signet of Agility is going to affect a ton of Power builds in general but I agree with removing it. It is one of those no-brainer sigils that you would always take and it's hard to keep the meta interesting when there is always a single most effective option for every single build. Looking at the rampage nerf I will say that I have fears of the meta shifting back toward bunkers becoming the primary go-to for ranked play. A bunker meta is really lethargic and only kind of fun to play in. I hope in the larger balance pass that tanky support builds also get acknowledged in relation to overall damage in a PvP match being lowered.

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Really don't like the rampage changes. Over 99% power scaling reduction on these skills is way overkill. While I can agree with rampage's combination of cc and damage being oppressive, these are skills that feel like they should hit hard and at .01 power scaling they will be pretty much the lowest damage skills in the game. Go for about 30% damage reduction on these skills instead, being hit by a giant flying Boulder should hurt, being kicked or body slammed by a brute in a steroid induced frenzy should hurt, just not so much that rampage is a "win" button.

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I do think the changes are good, but its not really sustainable. Having holosmith a huge drop of stab, makes it vulnerable to other classes a lot. If I play rev with brutality or sigil of annulment, I just dominate holo easily, same as warrior. I do think making this changes would increase the game quality, but you can't attack certain builds anymore. It hasn't been a good solution since years now.To connect on the quickness nerf: I think that's something you guys should focus on. All the new boons and stats that initially came with HoT, had a huge impact on the pvp scene and that should be the main target to balance. It's sustainable and brings a slower damage pace/ heal pace to the game, which is a big issue right now. You don't want to get hit with 1 skill that shreds half of your healthbar. That's unrewarding and doesn't require mechanicle skill, therefore shouldn't exist in a competitive gamemode.

I also want to say thank you for the communication you offer. It let's me think that there are good times ahead :).

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daum, staff for cmirage got shafted :D .but if I dont get to be hit for 10k with boulder that zoomes throught walls/ground then I take it.looks like some good changes, im sad to see that sustain of warrior/holo is not getting looked at but hey, cant have everything right?good work lads! pat yourself on the back from me.

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The rampage nerfs are far too much although it did need nerfed, that's a insane coefficient nerf though lol wtf. That reminds me of zos with eso upping dot dps by 80% just to lower it 70 % later on. U guys say ur making small changes to see how things pan out but ur way off if u think those are small changes. Thief changes look ok, holo needed more of a quick fix like lowering some of the coefficients in holo forge skills and slightly raising some CD's.

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Nerfing Rampage into the ground is fine ( even if its way to much imo ), but it still going to be the ONLY elite to take.When is elite signet getting looked at? its SOOOO dated and worse by a long long way compared to any of the other signets that aren't elite.

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Regarding staff daredevil:The major reason for staff/staff builds was easy initiative replenishment through quick pockets and role for initiative, so just reducing the numbers here will leave the build intact but i don't think it will solve the problems around it, mainly that it is the type of build which is not fun to fight against. So in my view there needs to be a more harsh change that targets staff/staff specifically while leaving intact other builds that use staff/x. Towards this end quick pockets is the clear target for changes, to something that does not involve initiative replenishment and the change can be drastic as almost no builds in the entire game use this trait.

In regards to debilitating arc:just fixing the jump-cast bug is enough to stifle the spammy-nes of it, as when the skill is used as intended there is a clear window of vulnerability during the aftercast (which was negated by jumpcasting) so reducing the cost back to 4 would be fine. Bare in mind that the issue with the staff build was not the weapon itself per say, but using staves in both weapon sets.Another change to staff could be to make debilitating arc cost 5 but reduce the cost of dust strike to 3 as this will keep the sum cost of skills on the same level as it was pre nerfs while reducing the evasion potential from the weapon set.

On to staff master:1 endurance per initiative is so minuscule it might as well not exist. It would take 50 points of initiative to get 1 dodge out of it which is terrible, so if you are adamant about adjusting this trait consider changing the secondary effect from granting endurance to something entirely different.Could be something like: while wielding a staff gain fury (or some other boon) when you drop below the initiative threshold (x sec cd for this effect); Or while wielding a staff gain even more power if you are below the initiative threshold of x; Or maybe something to do with evading attacks, point is 1 endurance per initiative is horrid plz don't do it :(

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@Cal Cohen.2358 said:Hi Everyone,

We’ve done some work on the next balance update and wanted to share some of the potential changes for discussion and feedback. As a reminder, this update is intended to be smaller but more targeted to address major issues within the game mode as we work toward some major changes in a future update. This is also not the full list of changes for the update, just the ones targeted at PvP.

The goal of this update on the competitive side is not to nerf everything that deserves a nerf, but to bring overperforming builds back in line. There are aspects of every meta build (and even some non-meta builds) that could reasonably be nerfed, but since we’re already looking ahead to a major shakeup we’re more focused on balancing around the current power level for now.

In particular we’re looking at:

  • Condi Thief
  • Holosmith
  • Condi Mirage
  • Rampage
  • Warrior’s Cunning
  • Revisiting Staff Thief

General

  • Sigil of Agility has been removed from the PvP build panel

This came up again as we were looking at holosmith quickness but is something we’ve been considering for a long time. Quickness in general is something that we’re looking at for the future update, but in the short-term we feel that this sigil is too easily accessible for the power it provides.

Condi ThiefThe main issue we’re looking to address with condi thief is the initial burst potential. Long term there are definitely questions about how this build is applying conditions, but for now we want to push it more toward a grindy build than a bursty one.

  • Spider Venom: Reduced poison duration from 6 seconds to 3 seconds in PvP only
  • Serpent's Touch: Reduced poison stacks from 2 to 1 in PvP only

HolosmithHolosmith quickness has been a big point of feedback and we’re planning to make some adjustments there. Removing Sigil of Agility was part of this, and we’re also looking at a minor nerf to Kinetic Battery.

This leaves Elixir U. We’re considering a quickness reduction here as well, but are currently leaning toward an interesting change that’s worth discussing. That change being a heavy reduction of the stability granted. The goal of this change is to leave U as the big quickness skill, but also open the door for more counterplay. This would give opportunity to avoid Corona Burst and then CC the holosmith instead of just getting run over by quickness.

  • Kinetic Battery: Reduced quickness duration from 5 seconds to 3 seconds in PvP only
  • Elixir U: Reduced stability duration from 6 seconds to 1 second in PvP only

Condi MirageWe understand that Mirage Cloak is a big point of contention and we’ve been having discussions internally, but it isn’t something that we’ll be ready to action for this update. As we get closer to our desired solution we’ll start to talk about it more with you all, but in the meantime we’re looking at some more general changes. Primarily toning down clone generation and reducing some damage potential of staff, pushing it more toward a utility kit.

  • Illusionary Counter: Reduced the number of clones spawned on block from 2 to 1 in PvP only
  • Phantasmal Warlock:
    • Reduced the number of warlocks spawned from 2 to 1 in PvP only.
    • Increased the vulnerability applied per hit from 2 stacks to 4 stacks in PvP only
  • Chaos Vortex:
    • Reduced bleed duration from 8 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP only.
    • Reduced burn duration from 2 seconds to 1 second in PvP only.
    • Reduced Torment duration from 8 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP only

RampageRampage has been overperforming since the initial change that brought its cooldown to 90 seconds, and continues to with the cooldown at 120 seconds. Rather than just bumping up the cooldown again, we’re looking to address an underlying issue: hard CC skills also doing large amounts of damage. This is something that we’re looking to do across the board for the future update, and we see Rampage as a good opportunity to see the idea in action.

  • Rampage skills have been adjusted as follows
    • Kick: Power coefficient reduced from 1.2 to 0.01 in PvP only
    • Throw Boulder: Power coefficient reduced from 2.0 to 0.01 in PvP only
    • Seismic Leap: Power coefficient reduced from 1.6 to 0.01 in PvP only

Warrior’s CunningWe’re making an adjustment to bring Warrior’s Cunning more in-line with other damage traits.

  • Warrior's Cunning: Reduced damage bonus against targets above 90% health from 25% to 7% in PvP only. Reduced damage bonus against targets with barrier from 50% to 10% in PvP only.

Staff ThiefAs mentioned the other day, we want to revisit the recent change to Debilitating Arc for the next balance update. There are still concerns about putting it back to 4 initiative, but it doesn’t really make sense for it to coexist with Vault at 6. We’re reducing the cost to 5 while making some minor adjustments to Quick Pockets and Staff Master.

  • Quick Pockets: Reduced initiative gained on weapon swap from 3 to 2 in PvP only
  • Staff Master: Reduced endurance gain per initiative spent from 2 to 1 in PvP only
  • Debilitating Arc: Reduced initiative cost from 6 to 5 in PvP only

Remember that these changes are not locked down and we still have time to iterate. We look forward to your thoughts and feedback.

-The Systems Team

and now bring this to wvw......in wvw its a problem too.only few players play large scale.

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@"Cal Cohen.2358" said:Condi MirageWe understand that Mirage Cloak is a big point of contention and we’ve been having discussions internally, but it isn’t something that we’ll be ready to action for this update. As we get closer to our desired solution we’ll start to talk about it more with you all, but in the meantime we’re looking at some more general changes. Primarily toning down clone generation and reducing some damage potential of staff, pushing it more toward a utility kit.

  • Illusionary Counter: Reduced the number of clones spawned on block from 2 to 1 in PvP only
  • Phantasmal Warlock:
    • Reduced the number of warlocks spawned from 2 to 1 in PvP only.
    • Increased the vulnerability applied per hit from 2 stacks to 4 stacks in PvP only
  • Chaos Vortex:
    • Reduced bleed duration from 8 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP only.
    • Reduced burn duration from 2 seconds to 1 second in PvP only.
    • Reduced Torment duration from 8 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP only

I don't know about "reducing some damage potential of staff". That's a significant reduction of power for staff mesmer since most of the damage on Mirage Staff Mesmer is from Chaos Vortex. Basically making offensive staff mesmer not viable anymore. They already nerfed Chaos Storm last patch. Chaotic Interruption was also nerfed badly as well, which worked well with Chaos Storm. They should have kept Chaotic Interruption's original skill, but increased the recharge time for PvP only.

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@Cal Cohen.2358 said:Condi MirageWe understand that Mirage Cloak is a big point of contention and we’ve been having discussions internally, but it isn’t something that we’ll be ready to action for this update. As we get closer to our desired solution we’ll start to talk about it more with you all, but in the meantime we’re looking at some more general changes. Primarily toning down clone generation and reducing some damage potential of staff, pushing it more toward a utility kit.

  • Illusionary Counter: Reduced the number of clones spawned on block from 2 to 1 in PvP only
  • Phantasmal Warlock:
    • Reduced the number of warlocks spawned from 2 to 1 in PvP only.
    • Increased the vulnerability applied per hit from 2 stacks to 4 stacks in PvP only
  • Chaos Vortex:
    • Reduced bleed duration from 8 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP only.
    • Reduced burn duration from 2 seconds to 1 second in PvP only.
    • Reduced Torment duration from 8 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP only

Remember that these changes are not locked down and we still have time to iterate. We look forward to your thoughts and feedback.

-The Systems Team

Can you at least rework staff 4 Chaos Armor if you're planning on turning it more into a utility kit?

And what's with you guys and your 50% nerfs? The duration nerfs are pretty heavy handed.

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I think nerfing the stab uptime of holo may remove them from the game...I already play without stab on corona burst, but making it so there is nothing that stops a holo from getting rekt after a big cc chain is really dangerous, being unable to disengage in 1 second is real not good when you can go up against interrupt heavy classes like the aforementioned warrior. (not to mention scrappers, mirages, mesmers in general, other holos... Being dead to interrupts is not fun, and will not be surprised if they are universally replaced by other strong teamfight classes. (hybrid FB, reaper, various guard builds, revs [even though they are on the losing end of the stick rn]). Glad I'm picking my soulbeast back up cause I may wake up to a dead holo on patch day.

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