Potential Future Balance Changes - WvW

[Svarty.8019]

I think it's wise to reduce targets and little else and then see how the game is affected. This will be good for the zerg game, if a little harsh on necros, who are rapidly seeing their niche whittled away whilst other, non-zergy classes aren't seeing the same sort of nerfs (thief, mesmer, ranger, warrior, engineer - all fit the roamer category and all are OP).

[Vegeta.2563]

Let's take a look at the amount of cleanses both scrapper and firebrands get.

• Scrapper:

  1. Cleansing Synergy: 1 cleanse up to 5 targets every 10 seconds (5 conditions)
  2. Purge Gyro: Remove 1 condition every 5 seconds up to 5 targets. (25 conditions)
  3. Med Kit (Cleansing Field): Remove 1 condition each pulse, up to 4 pulses (assuming 5 target limit) (20 conditions).

• Firebrand:

  1. Tome of Resolve: Activating this skill with Absolute Resolution trait will remove 3 conditions on 5 targets (15 conditions)
  2. Tome of Resolve (Chapter 2: Radiant Recovery): 2 Conditions removed every 2.75 seconds on 5 targets with Loremaster trait. (10 conditions).
  3. Mantra of Lore (Opening Passage): Convert 2 conditions on 5 targets (10 conditions)
  4. Mantra of Lore (Clarified Conclusion): Convert 5 conditions on 5 targets (25 conditions).

• Scourge:

If these changes go live with that means..

1. You have Axe 3 that converts 2 boons on 5 targets (10 boons).
2. Scepter 3 would now only convert 1 boon on 5 targets (5 boons).
3. Well of Corruption assuming is 1 boon corrupted per pulse every second (up to 25 boons if all 5 targets are stationary inside the well long enough which is 90% of the time never).
4. Ghastly Breach You can corrupt 1 boon (assuming) up to 5 targets, 1 per pulse up to 5 pulses (25 boons if all 5 targets are again stationary and don't move out of the breach).
5. Dagger 5 Corrupt 1 boon on 5 targets (5 boons)
6. Shade 2 (with Path of Corruption trait) would convert 2 boons on 5 targets (10 boons).

The problem with balancing out the number of corrupts vs boons, is that most of the scourge corrupts are stationary attacks that the enemy can dodge out of and move way from. Meanwhile support classes like Firebrand or Scrapper require teammates to be closeby and don't suffer from the lack from this.

In my honest opinion, the change to the Sand Savant target limit should be enough boon corrupt nerf for the time being. And Devouring Darkness should remain at 2.

[sostronk.8167]

Buff mechanics that require more than one click IE combo fields and nerf one click abilities.

[Kylar.2046]

Can you please do something fun for scourges? Every patch it ends up being, you get to do less with higher cooldowns. It's a boring class to play. Removing shade skills from the scourge and shade at the same time even reduced its minor support capabilities. The ranged shade is for damage, the one on the scourge was its support. You removed the support entirely in 90% of cases. You only really apply barrier to allies with your heal skill and that is then the only way conditions get removed by the scourge. Congrats necro in every spec is a horrible support again. There are still zero good utilities that affect your party, so necro has run wells in wvw since the core game. Scourge is now also the least defensive form of necro because the barrier that was its shroud no longer affects it most of the time. I realize that the shade could affect the scourge if no shade is placed, but that just doesn't happen when commanders are looking for damage. The longer time spent on the ground added in the last balance patch basically made sure that shade skills are never used around the actual scourge. Also the trait that reduces incoming damage for each shade placed is useless unless if you use the shade around the scourge.

The meta for wvw will either change to bring more scourges so we can get done what was happening before or you'll make it so bad it won't be played at all. There is no balance to some people playing scourges. Necro in all specs is one of the easiest classes to mass aoe people with at the same time. It doesn't do the most damage and hasn't for a long time. Scourges are brought for corrupts and aoe. Support scourge could have been thing if it was given more group utility, but that has never happened. I'm hoping scourge just dies at this point so I don't have to keep playing this boring class.

In wvw, classes each have a specific role:

SUPPORTFirebrands = best overall defensive support (group stability, group stun breaks, defensive boons, decent healing, some condi cleanse.)Scrapper = best condi cleanse, good healing, group stealthTempest = best healing, very good condi cleanse, some cc

DPSScourges = best corrupts (at range), many aoesHerald = easy offensive boons, group damage reduction, ranged power spikeWeaver = range damage/aoes (meteors), some cc

OTHERSpellbreaker doesn't bring much of anything to the group that another class can't do better except winds but that is melee range only and warriors leave the group to do that.Chrono died a painful death without its boon support and other nerfed utilitiesMelee classes or single target classes simply aren't the best way to fight a zerg atm.

If you don't bring something to the group you don't get included in the meta.

Nerfing scourge corrupts will just mean you need more scourges to corrupt things. No other class corrupts boons at range and there haven't been any added. Other classes ability to apply boons hasn't changed so scourge remains the only way to get rid of them without standing on top of them. Other classes ability to apply boons every second (literally) isn't affected. Therefore more scourges will be needed than is around now to corrupt the opponent boons.

Scourge is awful 1v1, bad in small groups... and getting worse every patch. Can you fix it in some other aspect so it isn't dead in every game mode?

[gavyne.6847]

Nerfing target cap back down to 5, I can support that 100%. As a necro I've suggested such before. But nerfing devouring darkness even more, that's not needed. As-is right now boonsharing is outpacing corrupts. Squads are finally taking tempests now for heals & cleanses (that's a good thing), and scrappers are still S-tier at condi conversion. There is not enough corrupts to go around, even worse if you're outnumbered because corrupts is the only thing that gives you a fighting chance.

You are wanting to nerf shades from 10 to 5 targets, that in itself will nerf scourge's dps + corrupts. Try that first without nerfing devouring darkness even more. It didn't need to be nerfed before, certainly don't warrant further nerfs right now. You nerf devouring darkness further, you're accepting the fact that no necros will take scepter any longer. Do you really want to go as far as killing builds & weapon choices?

Most seasoned WvW players will agree you really can't nerf corrupts without nerf boonsharing. The elephant in the room is that corrupts have been needed because boonsharing is out of control...and have been for a very long time. So sure, adjust corrupts. But please don't overdo it without looking at the elephant in the room.

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

The reduction is nice. Now shave off some of the damage and/or hp and all is well.

[Acheron.4731]

Nice.It isn't much but clearly reflects user complaints.Some ppl may be mad but I like that you id'd a problem and quickly acted on it.Keep up the good work :)

wow, that is the first time I have said that to an ANET employee in like....years?

[Korban.6194]

Yes, let's only focus on nerfing a class and not actually balance it. Meanwhile, FB's pump out boons and heals non stop; warriors (sb) have enough mobility to troll a large group and then dart to the opposite side of the map without being effectively caught; rev's phase smash can easily crit for 18k+; etc. However, sure, let's focus on the class that does not pump out any appreciable level of boons and has absolute jokes for 'mobility.' I also don't understand the issue brought up by their barriers. Barrier's aren't even a strong aspect to focus on when other classes need a bit more focus first. Also, if you want to edit the boon corrupt, how about also nerfing classes that pump out a disgusting amount of boons and heals in the same 'balance changes.'

It's difficult to appreciate 'balance changes' when all I see is a single class effectively being reduced yet other scourge related issues are not being mentioned (i.e. lack of decent mobility, lack of decent sustain, etc.). A scourge shouldn't have to 'rely' on another class as a meta (aka the scourge-fb relationship). Maybe actually balance a class to prevent such relationships but do so in a way that looks at the class as a whole. If you feel scourge corrupts too much, well why is that? Is/Are there classes that are generating a need for such corrupts? Is it actually an issue with one class or was the need for corrupts been introduced (with prior 'balances') to help curb some of the boon generation? If reducing their dmg/corrupts, how does that class compare - appropriately - to other advantages other classes have with the same reduction/lack-of (i.e. will their own self-sustain compensate the lack of damage, do they have appropriate cleanses themselves, can the have decent sustain and/or mobility if their dps/corrupts are reduced).

It just feels that scourge has been a 'fix' for the high level of boon generation that has been altered in prior 'balances' and now scourges get slapped with a bit of a focus-nerf while not addressing WHY their boon corrupts are high in the first place, and WHAT can be done to make sure if you reduce one aspect of their play style, something is either gained or adjusted to better 'balance.' I am all for making gameplay a bit more leveled and fair, but calling something a 'balance change' and yet I don't actually see a balance is a bit irking.

[Dark.7235]

Most WvW centric guilds I know have already completely phased Scourge out of team comps based on the previous and these anticipated nerfs. lol.

[God.2708]

The amount of people stating corruptions are not the issue, and that supports, cleanses, and boons all far outpace corruptions is straight up disturbing.

Boons self balance, for the most part. A player with 25 stacks of might and fury deals ~33% more damage than a player without. Protection, perhaps surprisingly to some of you, reduces damage by 33%. Quickness increases DPS by ~50%, making combat more bursty. Alacrity reduces cooldowns. Retaliation hurts people who hit very rapidly. Regen sustains people who dodge bursts. Aegis negates singular large hits. Its a back and forth. Two groups with all boons up are approximately the same as two groups with no boons up in terms of both defensive AND offensive power.

With that all out of the way, corruptions are not designed to be a 1 to 1 counter to boons. Corruptions in large scale fights should screw over between 1-10 people (depending on scale of fight) via focused AoEs that remove said boons temporarily, creating a window of opportunity to down then finish players. When corruptions are to high, TTK is by proxy fairly short. Feel free to riddle me this. Before HoT WvW groups would engage each other with every boon up (except alacrity, ofc) yet TTK was in a semi reasonable spot. Why then would you assume boon spam is 'to much'?

Setting all THAT aside. This change isn't targeted at boon corruption. It's targeted more to the fact that scourges can -spike- 10 players down all at once, something no other class has the capability of doing. If you do not recognize that is what the balance patch is targeted towards and why it is problematic that they can do that (combined with all the other things they can do, and why that is the most problematic thing) you would do the WvW community a great favor in doing more listening/studying and less talking.

[Shroud.2307]

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:Cal,

the corrupt potential of the scourge isn't the problem, boon application far outweighs the corrupts. Jump in any group and switch off the grid view and watch your party in the middle of battle. All you see is an influx of boons being applied with very little conditions or conditions appearing and then vanishing. If corrupts were a problem, we'd see the opposite; we'd see less boons and boons vanishing and tons of conditions ticking. We don't see that, leave the corrupts alone.

Shades also aren't the problem, the only real class they bother is the guardian, and to a lesser extent the warrior. Thieves, Rangers, Mesmers, Revs, and Engineers have little to no issue with shades. The shade complaints are coming from those 2 classes which is ironic because it's the Guardian class itself that does too much. What you need to do is revert all the changes on all the classes back to the start of PoF and take the heavy nerf bat to the Guardian and Guardian alone.

Case and point, One of the skills the Firebrand has converts 5 conditions to 5 boons on 5 targets (basically functions like an elite skill), on a relatively short cool down. The counter skill to this would have been devouring darkness, which in it's original state converting 3 boons to 3 conditions on 5 targets was never on par to even begin with; it needed to be increased to 5 boons to 5 conditions on 5 targets to match it. Then it got reduced to 2 conditions, now will be reduced down to 1, and the Firebrand skill remains untouched????? Do you see the problem here?

Changing Scourge isn't going to change the meta, the sole problem with the meta is the Guardian class. Making those changes will likely reduce Scourges in WvW yes, but it will also likely reduce amount of players playing as well (and there aren't many left as is). What will the scourge be replaced with? Ele's? Nope, die to retaliation and their healing is sub par compared to Firebrand. Revs? Good possibility but does WvW need more Revs, many players will say no? More Rangers and thieves? Nope, too much reflect because of Guardian. More scrappers? Again, highly unlikely, they don't serve a large enough function to warrant many of them. Mesmers? How many chrono tanks are needed in groups?

Then that lastly brings us to warriors, who better to fill the boon stripping gap then warriors? With little fear of boon corruption now, warriors can run amok much easier. Then the original problem has been created that plagued WvW prior to HoT's release, that awful melee meta, the one that started making players quite the game in masses, due to the lack of class diversity and alienation of other classes. Reducing boon corrupts is about the poorest move you can make Cal.

That isn't the only problem the guardian class poses; they dish out too much retaliation, too many reflects, too much resistance, too much stability, and too much healing. Then also aside from too much condi conversion in their wheelhouse, they pack too much overall condition cleanse as well. Your nerf bat should be squarely focused on them and reducing them down to the level of other classes. They should only be able to do one of those things well on that list (like party stab), and one other thing marginally well (like healing). Everything else needs to be completely removed from their skill list. That is what will change the meta and bring more diversity into the game mode.

+1 so more people see where the complaints should actually be going.

Had I not said a million times in the past that Firebrand is a problem, I'd have written something similar. Instead I chose to bend over and suggest ways to make Scourge in to something else.

Thank you for writing this and saying what I couldn't have better myself.

[Coldtart.4785]

Instead of nerfing the amount of boons corrupted by necro skills consider replacing most corrupts with simple boon strips, with some possibly getting benefits for successfully stripping a boon like focus 5 does currently. Consider also doing the same with condi to boon skills.

[Kitta.3657]

i like the scourge changes

now please revert your removal of illusionary persona on chronomancer in all game modes :) as this has been proven to be one of the worst (if not the one) change done to mesmer.

[anduriell.6280]

Scourge does too much direct and condi damage, barrier, corruption and cleanses with one shade.Right now scourge is a power creep over core necro because barrier already does the role of the shroud for core.IMO i'd try first to remove the direct damage and check carefully the condition damage. And leave the target cap like it is now and It should push the spec to a more offensive support role and make space for other classes in the damage slot, like elementalist.

Another pain point is the firebrand with the access to heal+support+cleanses. It makes any other support classes completely irrelevant. Although i cant give any advise here as i dont play much with that class .

Condi thieves, permastealth thieves, condi mirages are also problematic point in wvw.

Ranger's Rapid Fire needs a visual clue the same as CoR has. Something like show the projectiles brigth red would be good so the target can see where the damage comes from.

[Rockal.5468]

What about repairing rev's CoR before any balance?

[Grumpdogg.6910]

@Dark.7235 said:Most WvW centric guilds I know have already completely phased Scourge out of team comps based on the previous and these anticipated nerfs. lol.You obviously know some terrible guilds.

Any chance of adding Mesmer/Rev/Ele back into the meta again instead of purely focusing on the holy trinity of Guard/Warrior/Necro?

[XenesisII.1540]

So.. ping ponging shade target amounts back down to 5 while still decreasing corruption and not touching the other side of things, they're just putting the targets back to where it was before the last change a month ago.

But this is just a note, guess we wait and see what else will happen.

[DKRathalos.9625]

I actually want to know since we already talk about boonstrip and boon corrupt here, also the vice versa condition remove (and in some case convert to boon)Which are the priority For example 1 person has full boon, another person corrupt/strip 3, which boon take priority?As well as if a person suffer for all condition and guardian pop F2 skill 5, which 5 condition are removed first?

[borgs.6103]

Scourge going to get the Chronomancer treatment for WvW, I see...

Can't you implement HP on Shades that depletes itself everytime it pulses? And I mean HIT points, not Health.For example - Shades have 30 HP and pulses 15 times, so it depletes 2 HPs per pulse, but foes can attack it to prevent it from pulsing its whole duration. One attack of any kind removes 1 HP from it. It has to be attacks, and not ticking conditions that remove HP. This way, shades could still be potent on small scale but not overpowered on large scale battles.

Adding lots of Barriers to most of the Scourge skills but retaining their corruption potency is also a good idea. That way, Tactics Warriors would be meta. Commanders would now have to balance their squads and not just spam Scourges and add a couple of Spellbreakers then blob to win.

[Sigmoid.7082]

@TwilightSoul.9048 said:In my opinion the only change neccessary on Scourge is: Remove the power damage. It's supposed to be a condi class, not a powerAoE Bomber.

You realise scourges play power because in medium to large scale combat conditions are pretty much completely useless due to the over abundance of condition cleanse int the game at the moment.

[jsp.6912]

firebrand and winds of disenchantment have to be nerf in priorityand the wvw can become nice

[Druch.8573]

You need to start rethinking and find new mechanics for this class. Lately you are only nerfing classes andcskills. Can you do something different instead? Death magic useless still in wvw.

Second time in a row you want to nerf Devouring Darkness and mess with Sand Savant. It seems you are lost. Curses is not going to be use anymore If you finally nerf Devouring Darkness, leaving no other choices than just run spite and soul reaping with power build.

[misterman.1530]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@"misterman.1530" said:Typical. And typical responses from the typical people. Yea, Scourges are incredible in a zerg. Roaming, not so much. Scourges will not one-shot someone like a SoulBeast or a DeadEye. Scourges have NO defense and are generally running glass. But by all means, nerf us more and give us no retaliation or blocks. Hey, for funsies, why not make the one pathetic port we have take 10 seconds to cast - that'll teach us.

Does Anet even play the class?

"Scourges are incredible in a zerg" and that's what they're targeting, so why are you complaining about roaming here? I don't really get it. Or are you another one of those people that think the single class they're playing should be strong at everything they want to do?

Yes. Because other classes are also incredible in a zerg and also can roam. Is this something you are unaware of? I mean, other people later on in this thread have explained the power other classes bring, so I'll let you go read those. I really thought, however, that I didn't need to mention the skillset of every other class every time I bring up that nerfing Scourges isn't the right thing to do.

[Kanto.2485]

Alright so, i see two main points being brought up:1-"people will just use more scourges": maybe in gvg they'll add one or two to the comp or maybe not, but in publics i don't think that'll happen. Consider If you put more scourges you have less of something else too. It's still a nerf, and also people just kind of play what they want since public leads aren't pre-organized usually.2-"nerf other supports instead": Yes and no. The problem with corrupts isn't that they remove too many boons, but it is that they change boons into conditions, and since stability gets corrupted into fear you get situations in which your stab gets chaincorrupted into fear and you just die. So the problem is that with a coordinated shade spike(and maybe rev spike on top of it) you can lockdown all enemy classes that don't have stuff like evades or skills that make you completely invulnerable to damage(and with low cast time too), corrupt their stab into fear, and then put CC on top of that. And with the amount of damage necroes and rev deal you can melt down even a firebrand in like 1-1.5 seconds sometimes. That being said, i also agree that we have too many boons, so maybe a more balanced apporach would be to, instead of reducing corrupts, keeping them the same or even increasing them, but after changing them into boon removals, and after that nerfing boon uptime. That way you avoid silly situations in which you die to your own stability being corrupted, you give ccs some use out of being put on top of bubbles/shades by nerfing stab uptime (and not number of stacks, please) and open up more tactical gameplay: in the pre-HoT meta you called stab 1 and 2 and you knew your squad would have stab for some seconds, used those seconds for aggressive play and then pull back and reorganize, handle cds and such, and on the other hand you could try and punish the enemy squad when you knew its defensive cds would be on cooldown. That meta was much better in that sense IMO, without overpowered specs your cds felt much more important, now as a firebrand main i can tell you can constantly rotate between mantras, tomes and weapon skills and always, ALWAYS have at very least some way of providing aegis, protection or condi cleanse. Even stab is barely lakcing if you know how to manage it.TL;DR: less corrupts, more boon removal -->nerf boon uptime and make cds more important.

[miguelsil.6324]

@Cal Cohen.2358 said:Hi Everyone,

We’ve done some work on the next balance update and wanted to share some of the potential changes for discussion and feedback. As a reminder, this update is intended to be smaller but more targeted to address major issues within the game mode as we work toward some major changes in a future update. This is also not the full list of changes for the update, just the ones targeted at WvW.

Cal please address the perma STEALTH, HARD CC STUNLOCKS ( really its not fun and has no skill required ) and one shot builds for all classes in wvw, we ned to have counters for one shots from stealth which in this case means DE and mesmers.

Too much reward with little to no risk.

Stunlocks should have no place in wvw, a ICD of at least 1s after the stun ends or is broken by stunbreak would fix this.