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Let's Talk About PvP Balance


Cal Cohen.2358

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@JayAction.9056 said:If you guys want to make Renegade summons viable, each summon should be a complete 100-0 or near 100-0 through sheer damage or overpowering effect causing a loss in combat effectiveness (cc or condition combos of some sort).

As it is right now for the summons to have their complete effect you are required to sit in them for their entire duration. Well, if you sit in them for the full duration now it’s negligible the effect they have, even more if there are multiple enemies standing in them.

It just falls flat logically. You have to outplay enemies so severe that you cause them to be inside of your non-snaring AOE for multiple seconds. Then, after the time passes the overall effect is equal to, or in reality, weaker than even instant casts.

It still fails after all the extreme, +333% damage increases some of the Renegade toolkit has seen for a reason.

There’s a thread in rev forum about this as well, as I stated there renegade utilities need to became full wards or tweaked to summons based on ammo that will atack the enemy like some Mesmer clones do, a bit similar with diablo 3 guardian spirit army thing.

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@Aeolus.3615 said:

@JayAction.9056 said:If you guys want to make Renegade summons viable, each summon should be a complete 100-0 or near 100-0 through sheer damage or overpowering effect causing a loss in combat effectiveness (cc or condition combos of some sort).

As it is right now for the summons to have their complete effect you are required to sit in them for their entire duration. Well, if you sit in them for the full duration now it’s negligible the effect they have, even more if there are multiple enemies standing in them.

It just falls flat logically. You have to outplay enemies so severe that you cause them to be inside of your non-snaring AOE for multiple seconds. Then, after the time passes the overall effect is equal to, or in reality, weaker than even instant casts.

It still fails after all the extreme, +333% damage increases some of the Renegade toolkit has seen for a reason.

There’s a thread in rev forum about this as well, as I stated there renegade utilities need to became full wards or tweaked to summons based on ammo that will atack the enemy like some Mesmer clones do, a bit similar with diablo 3 guardian spirit army thing.

Be VERY careful what you wish for. There is a reason why they changed phantasms away from this and there are many many problems with clones on both sides of the fight.

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My friends and I recently migrated to GW2 from WoW, primarily due to disgust with Blizzard as a company (re: Blitzchung/HK). We mostly did casual PvP (battlegrounds) in WoW and we were hoping to have a similar experience in GW2's structured PvP. So far, we've been pretty disappointed, and we're giving up on GW2 PvP for now. However, I was pleasantly surprised to find that this thread exists, and that serious changes are being considered; I definitely would be willing to give GW2 PvP another try if some balance changes are made.

In case it's helpful, here are the three main issues I've noticed:

  1. Damage is tuned too high relative to player health pools. I think this is by far the biggest problem, because it means that you can be bursted down before you even have a chance to react. Getting one-shotted simply isn't fun. Fortunately, the solution to this is pretty simple: just give player health pools a significant boost (i.e., instead of around 20k health, a player would have around 200k health). I remember that WoW had exactly this same problem several years ago (during WotLK), and the issue was resolved in exactly this way: massively boosting player health.

  2. Professions seem to be seriously imbalanced. Your proposed fixes in https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/91447/potential-future-balance-changes-pvp seem like a reasonable first stab. One other piece of (hopefully) low-hanging fruit is re-stealthing. My suggestion is to simply remove this mechanic from PvP altogether. Stealth is an extremely powerful mechanic, and generally in MMOs you cannot re-stealth once you've entered combat, or, if you can, it's only by using a special re-stealth ability that has a long cooldown. For what it's worth, as someone new to this game, repeated re-stealthing was the first thing that jumped out at me as a "minigame" red flag (as in, "if this is in the game, the developers must just see PvP as a minigame, and PvP balancing probably isn't even something they think about").

  3. It's often hard to tell what's going on during combat. I think this is primarily due to insufficient visual differentiation between avatars, skills, and the environment; I suspect not much can be done about this at this stage in the game's development. One thing that might help is an option to make the UI elements less subtle -- for example, bigger/brighter/higher-contrast targeting graphics, larger fonts with outlines, etc.

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@tinybike.4715 said:I was pleasantly surprised to find that this thread exists, and that serious changes are being considered; I definitely would be willing to give GW2 PvP another try if some balance changes are made.

You have to remind yourself that it's the players who consider changes in for a balance around top players.It's not Arenanet who want to make major changes.I can't even recall a single time that Arenanet answered with concrete changes before they were applied.

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@Fueki.4753 said:

@"tinybike.4715" said:I was pleasantly surprised to find that this thread exists, and that serious changes are being considered; I definitely would be willing to give GW2 PvP another try if some balance changes are made.

You have to remind yourself that it's the players who consider changes in for a balance
around top players
.It's not Arenanet who want to make major changes.I can't even recall a single time that Arenanet answered with concrete changes
before
they were applied.

Maybe Arenanet is turning over a new leaf in that regard? The changes proposed in the other thread (https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/91447/potential-future-balance-changes-pvp) seem pretty concrete to me.

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Fundamental Changes:

Condition Damage:Someone touched on it already in this thread, and I'd like to highlight it again. DoT effects should not have the same level of burst as power dmg. It is completely asinine that any of the condition specs can apply 10+ conditions in a miniscule amount of time and that those conditions put a comparative amount of offensive pressure as say a power burst rotation. There should be SOME distinction between the amount of damage done by a condition "rotation" and a power rotation.

Condition Cleanse:Having said what I did about condition damage is necessarily tied into condition cleanse. If condition damage is consequently nerfed as a result of fundamental balance changes, cleanse should then also be nerfed. The point is not to remove condition specs from the game entirely - it should be to define them differently than a power spec. Condition cleanse being as strong as it is (for some classes at least) will likely push out condition damage specs from any semblance of being meta if they, too, are not nerfed relative to condition damage.

Perma-Anything:Having the ability to max out on a boon, a stealth, etc. is not something that is healthy for the game. It promotes extreme builds that focus on one thing, and that one thing pushes it over the edge because 25 stacks of might isn't something that the game is designed around in terms of raw damage output vs. raw health points and healing output. Either remove the ability to maintain perma-anything or make it so incredibly difficult that it will hamstring the rest of the build to a point of relative irrelevance.

Class Changes:

Mesmer:In conjunction with the condition damage change, the passive damage that mirages can pump out as a result of their clones is wildly overtuned - they already have an inherent advantage of having multiple copies of themselves that a person has to manage. It should not be the case that those copies are also putting an unnecessary amount of offensive pressure on the opponent.

Thief:There isn't much to elaborate on beyond what a lot of people have already posted; however, I will say this: Thieves survivability should be looked at. A lot of people want to point to the fact that thieves have a low health pool. Do they, though? Carrion thieves have ~21k health. That's fine if their damage is going to be nerfed, but I think thieves should be balanced around a low health pool and high damage output. They should be high risk, high reward as opposed to the low risk, high reward playstyle they currently employ. Plain and simple, balance thieves around the concept of them being melee glass cannons with an avoidance kit. (Not perma-avoidance mind you)

Guardian:Firebrand pushes SO many specs out of the meta that it is arguably one of the most obnoxious elite specializations in the game currently. A lot of people complain about condi thieves and mirages or holos, but the biggest culprit of meta imbalance is Firebrand. It is by far the spec that can single-handedly carry a game with how generally good it is. It should be a Jack of all trades, master of none. Instead, it is a master of literally everything aside from mobility. That is the down-fall, it is slow. That should NOT be a viable reason for something be wildly overtuned in almost all other aspects of its gameplay. Nerf. Firebrand. Kill. It. With. Fire.

Necro:Fine. Maybe nerf Reaper damage. The spec is really easy to play and do a lot of damage with, which is a problem. It isn't the worst thing in the world of course; however, it is gaining popularity simply due to how simple it is to pilot and still dish out an incomparable amount of damage.

Engineer:Holo. Smith. Goodness gracious. If Firebrand is the most obnoxious elite specialization to play against, then holosmith is the second. And, I am sure there are arguments to be made that could flip those in a tier list. Holosmith has the same problem of being designed as a jack of all trades, master of none but operating as a master of all. It is too overtuned in almost all aspects of its gameplay, and it needs to be brought down to a reasonable power level. Focus on one or two things that can make the spec stand out, but having the entire specialization be an homage to imbalance is wildly unhealthy for the game. Nerf. Holo. Smith.

I will add more thoughts on classes/specs later, but that is mostly it for now.

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Also, you guys should consider a balance of Reckless impact

an unblockable 3k+ damages dodge roll + 5 sec of might is clearly too much.

A Warrior should hit to hurt, not roll :)

And nowadays it seems like 40% of their total damages are coming from their dodges. (Just watch any warrior video, you'll see em dodge a lot, not to evade attacks, but just to deal damages).

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@"Theros.1390" said:Also, you guys should consider a balance of Reckless impact

an unblockable 3k+ damages dodge roll + 5 sec of might is clearly too much.

A Warrior should hit to hurt, not roll :)

And nowadays it seems like 40% of their total damages are coming from their dodges. (Just watch any warrior video, you'll see em dodge a lot, not to evade attacks, but just to deal damages).

the fact that its aoe, unblockable, hits hard and provides might ( so it also heals ) ... wowsies.

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@"Cal Cohen.3527" Regarding this... "hard CC skills also doing large amounts of damage."

The Condition System could use a 2019 review. Most games used DoT skills, which made most sense and seems much easier to balance around. In wvw sometimes my outgoing conditions are cleansed away almost completely or sometimes they are overly effective against an opponent. There could be a middle ground maybe? https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/29999/let-s-also-fix-up-the-condi-system-before-we-neuter-professions-more

And just so you are aware, I have 6 Daze skills and 3 Stun skills on my Thief skill bar.

The team needs to not just reduce damage of Hard CC skills (and on some movement impairing skills), but there needs to either be (in addition to cutting out a bunch of hard cc skills from weapons and slot skills)...

1- Immunity timers after a player gets hit with 1 (ONE) Hard CC effect and movement impairing effect when the duration ends, or when a player https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stun_break out of the effect.

OR...

2- Break Bars on players.

Getting Hard CCed and "snared up" by movement impairing skills and effects over and over and over and over and over... needs to go right away. MOA from https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Humility and https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Toss_Elixir_X NEEDS to be considered a Hard CC skill that is countered by https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stun_break.

There are also weapons and slot skills that drop too many different conditions and effects.

The team needs to revamp the condition system sooner than later, because it's not really great at all honestly.

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@Radagascar.6231 said:Fundamental Changes:Guardian:Firebrand pushes SO many specs out of the meta

Such as?

If you're about to say support Tempest/Druid/Scrapper/Ventari, then you're wrong.

If FB was straight-up deleted from the game tomorrow, you wouldn't start to see support Tempests in MAT teams. Because it just isn't worth the player-slot.

Even support FB is considered not worth taking by some teams; we're already seeing MAT teams that don't have any dedicated support at all. Do you think nerfing FB will suddenly make these teams take Druid? That doesn't make any sense. On any level.

The only reason a support was considered mandatory last year, was because of Scourge. But with Scourge gone, the meta now is characterized by Holos, Spellbreakers, Thieves, Heralds, Weavers, Mirages, and Hybrid FBs, none of which need a dedicated support to prop them up. Why would you bring a Ventari Rev when you can bring an extra Holo? The relative strength of current support-FB doesn't even factor into this decision.

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@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:(...)condi tempests, (...)burn guards(...)

What the heck did I just read?

Seriously? Ur gonna pretend that their ok? This games future is brite.It's not so much the specs themselves as condi is tuned to far for any class that churns it out at a continual rate. A burn guard/fb can burst any spec in seconds as can a fire weaver etc etc. Pvp matches are literally getting to the point where the nodes in conquest look like mini zerg fights in wvw, condi circles stacked continually. I've sat and watched laughing from outside the zone at all all the ridiculous condi spam there is on every node and in every fight. Until the community starts calling for condi nerfs on all the classes that literally crap them out even if it's their class the pvp in this game will be a joke and will never regain a health population. But instead they cry about just the few annoying specs that have a hate following until their useless leaving the others unchecked which is the cycle that is gw2 balancing throughout the yrs.

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@"Radagascar.6231" said:Fundamental Changes:Thief:There isn't much to elaborate on beyond what a lot of people have already posted; however, I will say this: Thieves survivability should be looked at. A lot of people want to point to the fact that thieves have a low health pool. Do they, though? Carrion thieves have ~21k health. That's fine if their damage is going to be nerfed, but I think thieves should be balanced around a low health pool and high damage output. They should be high risk, high reward as opposed to the low risk, high reward playstyle they currently employ. Plain and simple, balance thieves around the concept of them being melee glass cannons with an avoidance kit. (Not perma-avoidance mind you)

Squishiness isn't a concept focused solely around health pool total. If that was the case, guardian would be the glassiest class of all. You have to account for all of thief's evade skills (outside dodge having a cast and aftercast time. "Perma-avoidance" isn't a realistic concept. Also, meriting every thief build to be low risk / high reward is grossly underplaying the thief player base and class as a whole.

Carrion Amulet sacrifices a lot of condi uptime in favor or survivability and initial "burst". You have to take venom sigils, and if you take venom sigils you lose out on boon and condi removal, since the second sigil almost has to be energy because you're unlikely to be taking Signet of Agility because you need a 2nd stun break for warriors and holos.

Fine. Maybe nerf Reaper damage. The spec is really easy to play and do a lot of damage with, which is a problem.

A lot of reaper damage is very telegraphed, and almost always follows a pattern. With the removal of sigil of agility, reaper will be very easy to dodge since their only quickness access will be the initial cast of Reaper Shroud.

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:(...)condi tempests, (...)burn guards(...)

What the heck did I just read?

Seriously? Ur gonna pretend that their ok? This games future is brite.(...)

I mean, I understand most of the classes you mentioned. Even burn guard, which is incredibly weak atm, but okay.

But condi tempest?! :lol:

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@Megametzler.5729 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:(...)condi tempests, (...)burn guards(...)

What the heck did I just read?

Seriously? Ur gonna pretend that their ok? This games future is brite.(...)

I mean, I understand most of the classes you mentioned. Even burn guard, which is incredibly weak atm, but okay.

But condi tempest?! :lol:

Tempest isnt nearly as strong as fire weaver but due to condi's being how they are right now anything that craps condi's is broken and burn gaurd is far far from weak right now. Boons are another issue as well as I literally just sat in arena with a soulbeast targeted and watched his boons. He literally had quickness,protection,vigor and few more boons continually applying the second the stacks ran out so basically perma boons lmao yeah games balanced great these days

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@Swagger.1459 said:@"Cal Cohen.3527" Regarding this... "hard CC skills also doing large amounts of damage."

The Condition System could use a 2019 review. Most games used DoT skills, which made most sense and seems much easier to balance around. In wvw sometimes my outgoing conditions are cleansed away almost completely or sometimes they are overly effective against an opponent. There could be a middle ground maybe? https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/29999/let-s-also-fix-up-the-condi-system-before-we-neuter-professions-more

And just so you are aware, I have 6 Daze skills and 3 Stun skills on my Thief skill bar.

The team needs to not just reduce damage of Hard CC skills (and on some movement impairing skills), but there needs to either be (in addition to cutting out a bunch of hard cc skills from weapons and slot skills)...

1- Immunity timers after a player gets hit with 1 (ONE) Hard CC effect and movement impairing effect when the duration ends, or when a player https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stun_break out of the effect.

OR...

2- Break Bars on players.

Getting Hard CCed and "snared up" by movement impairing skills and effects over and over and over and over and over... needs to go right away. MOA from https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Humility and https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Toss_Elixir_X NEEDS to be considered a Hard CC skill that is countered by https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stun_break.

There are also weapons and slot skills that drop too many different conditions and effects.

The team needs to revamp the condition system sooner than later, because it's not really great at all honestly.

God's love thank you! , I have to wait for a honest thief player to come out and state the issues at hand. I have already stated that CC lock must go from this game and particularly I am looking at Headshot and Pistolwhipe, both those skills allow the thief player to assume two very frustrating playstyles to deal with.

1) Headshot : the thief just prevents you from doing any action by repeatedly spamming https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Headshot at 4 ini for 15 ini, they can prevent you from using any skill meanwhile they pressure you with their AA spam , it's very hard to outplay a thief playing this way if you haven't got instant cast heals, instant stealth (like mesmers and engis) or passive heal ( like wars and eles )

2)PistolWhip : Again a spammable stun with baked in evade, https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pistol_Whip the thief just teleport in and can't be hit while cleaving for great amounts of dmg

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@Cal Cohen.2358 said:

I wanted to keep this initial post fairly short, so please ask questions about anything that is unclear. Otherwise, let’s talk balance.

Thank you for the update. I don't know what a skill split means.

Regardless of nerfing and buffing, there will always be players who are more skilled (quicker with the keys, more knowledgeable about build and rotation, etc.) than others. So when I think of pvp balance, I think more of the team matchups. It's so much more exhilarating to play against people of equal (or close to it) skill, where points are neck in neck. As it is, I only come across a few of those, but more often it's against better skilled players whose only challenge is to keep us from scoring because they can down an opponent before we can even block them. It's demoralizing. :'(Isn't it possible to group divisions for better team matchups? For example, a mix of Bronze and Silvers against other Bronze and Silvers. Same with Gold and Platinums.

Legendaries can challenge themselves with other Legendaries.

I have no idea what this would involve or how difficult it would be for the developers. Just and observation/suggestion.

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@Arheundel.6451 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:@"Cal Cohen.3527" Regarding this... "hard CC skills also doing large amounts of damage."

The Condition System could use a 2019 review. Most games used DoT skills, which made most sense and seems much easier to balance around. In wvw sometimes my outgoing conditions are cleansed away almost completely or sometimes they are overly effective against an opponent. There could be a middle ground maybe?

And just so you are aware, I have 6 Daze skills and 3 Stun skills on my Thief skill bar.

The team needs to not just reduce damage of Hard CC skills (and on some movement impairing skills), but there needs to either be (in addition to cutting out a bunch of hard cc skills from weapons and slot skills)...

1- Immunity timers after a player gets hit with 1 (ONE) Hard CC effect and movement impairing effect when the duration ends, or when a player
out of the effect.

OR...

2- Break Bars on players.

Getting Hard CCed and "snared up" by movement impairing skills and effects over and over and over and over and over... needs to go right away. MOA from
and
NEEDS to be considered a Hard CC skill that is countered by
.

There are also weapons and slot skills that drop too many different conditions and effects.

The team needs to revamp the condition system sooner than later, because it's not really great at all honestly.

God's love thank you!
, I have to wait for a honest thief player to come out and state the issues at hand. I have already stated that CC lock must go from this game and particularly I am looking at
Headshot
and
Pistolwhipe
, both those skills allow the thief player to assume two very
frustrating
playstyles to deal with.

1) Headshot : the thief just prevents you from doing any action by repeatedly spamming
at 4 ini for 15 ini, they can prevent you from using any skill meanwhile they pressure you with their
AA spam
, it's very hard to outplay a thief playing this way if you haven't got instant cast heals, instant stealth (like mesmers and engis) or passive heal ( like wars and eles )

2)PistolWhip : Again a spammable stun with
baked in evade
,
the thief just teleport in and can't be hit while cleaving for great amounts of dmg

Wow! Yeah pistol whip, head shot spam eh repeatedly so u cant do anything lmao either can the thief cuz has no ini. Again actually play the class u complain about before spamming nerf threads. Go try spamming pistol whip or headshot see how it works out for u. Seriously getting to not be funny all these post by players that obviously kno jack wtf. If ur dying to a thief spamming any of the skills u mentioned u have greater problems to worry about. No thief build with pistol in has been meta for a food while now because they needs buffs or other classes toned down to be reliably viable and now their a problem lol. To much.

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:@"Cal Cohen.3527" Regarding this... "hard CC skills also doing large amounts of damage."

The Condition System could use a 2019 review. Most games used DoT skills, which made most sense and seems much easier to balance around. In wvw sometimes my outgoing conditions are cleansed away almost completely or sometimes they are overly effective against an opponent. There could be a middle ground maybe?

And just so you are aware, I have 6 Daze skills and 3 Stun skills on my Thief skill bar.

The team needs to not just reduce damage of Hard CC skills (and on some movement impairing skills), but there needs to either be (in addition to cutting out a bunch of hard cc skills from weapons and slot skills)...

1- Immunity timers after a player gets hit with 1 (ONE) Hard CC effect and movement impairing effect when the duration ends, or when a player
out of the effect.

OR...

2- Break Bars on players.

Getting Hard CCed and "snared up" by movement impairing skills and effects over and over and over and over and over... needs to go right away. MOA from
and
NEEDS to be considered a Hard CC skill that is countered by
.

There are also weapons and slot skills that drop too many different conditions and effects.

The team needs to revamp the condition system sooner than later, because it's not really great at all honestly.

God's love thank you!
, I have to wait for a honest thief player to come out and state the issues at hand. I have already stated that CC lock must go from this game and particularly I am looking at
Headshot
and
Pistolwhipe
, both those skills allow the thief player to assume two very
frustrating
playstyles to deal with.

1) Headshot : the thief just prevents you from doing any action by repeatedly spamming
at 4 ini for 15 ini, they can prevent you from using any skill meanwhile they pressure you with their
AA spam
, it's very hard to outplay a thief playing this way if you haven't got instant cast heals, instant stealth (like mesmers and engis) or passive heal ( like wars and eles )

2)PistolWhip : Again a spammable stun with
baked in evade
,
the thief just teleport in and can't be hit while cleaving for great amounts of dmg

Wow! Yeah pistol whip, head shot spam eh repeatedly so u cant do anything lmao either can the thief cuz has no ini. Again actually play the class u complain about before spamming nerf threads. Go try spamming pistol whip or headshot see how it works out for u. Seriously getting to not be funny all these post by players that obviously kno jack kitten. If ur dying to a thief spamming any of the skills u mentioned u have greater problems to worry about. No thief build with pistol in has been meta for a food while now because they needs buffs or other classes toned down to be reliably viable and now their a problem lol. To much.

The same things , you used the same about Stuff/Stuff , DD condition , and the other condtions specs and their Ini cost .You should avoid posting anything Balance related :P

The rest of the community (exluding you) , might have already have used :https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lead_Attackshttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sigil_of_Courage_(PvP)

(let me print schreen the current conversation and w8 3 months, :PThen you will tell me that you have played this spec , since childbirth)

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:@"Cal Cohen.3527" Regarding this... "hard CC skills also doing large amounts of damage."

The Condition System could use a 2019 review. Most games used DoT skills, which made most sense and seems much easier to balance around. In wvw sometimes my outgoing conditions are cleansed away almost completely or sometimes they are overly effective against an opponent. There could be a middle ground maybe?

And just so you are aware, I have 6 Daze skills and 3 Stun skills on my Thief skill bar.

The team needs to not just reduce damage of Hard CC skills (and on some movement impairing skills), but there needs to either be (in addition to cutting out a bunch of hard cc skills from weapons and slot skills)...

1- Immunity timers after a player gets hit with 1 (ONE) Hard CC effect and movement impairing effect when the duration ends, or when a player
out of the effect.

OR...

2- Break Bars on players.

Getting Hard CCed and "snared up" by movement impairing skills and effects over and over and over and over and over... needs to go right away. MOA from
and
NEEDS to be considered a Hard CC skill that is countered by
.

There are also weapons and slot skills that drop too many different conditions and effects.

The team needs to revamp the condition system sooner than later, because it's not really great at all honestly.

God's love thank you!
, I have to wait for a honest thief player to come out and state the issues at hand. I have already stated that CC lock must go from this game and particularly I am looking at
Headshot
and
Pistolwhipe
, both those skills allow the thief player to assume two very
frustrating
playstyles to deal with.

1) Headshot : the thief just prevents you from doing any action by repeatedly spamming
at 4 ini for 15 ini, they can prevent you from using any skill meanwhile they pressure you with their
AA spam
, it's very hard to outplay a thief playing this way if you haven't got instant cast heals, instant stealth (like mesmers and engis) or passive heal ( like wars and eles )

2)PistolWhip : Again a spammable stun with
baked in evade
,
the thief just teleport in and can't be hit while cleaving for great amounts of dmg

Wow! Yeah pistol whip, head shot spam eh repeatedly so u cant do anything lmao either can the thief cuz has no ini. Again actually play the class u complain about before spamming nerf threads. Go try spamming pistol whip or headshot see how it works out for u. Seriously getting to not be funny all these post by players that obviously kno jack kitten. If ur dying to a thief spamming any of the skills u mentioned u have greater problems to worry about. No thief build with pistol in has been meta for a food while now because they needs buffs or other classes toned down to be reliably viable and now their a problem lol. To much.

I know, I was wowed as well...

"Thief out of nowhere.

325 (Nourishment)1,918 (infiltrator's Strike)1,902 (Steal)1,156 (Pistol Whip)2,310 (Pistol Whip)133 (Poisoned)2,267 (Pistol Whip)2,310 (Pistol Whip)2,245 (Pistol Whip)1,049 (Pistol Whip)325 (Nourishment)Interrupt (Pistol Whip)2,264 (Pistol Whip)2,264 (Pistol Whip)2,264 (Pistol Whip)1,693 (Infiltrator's Strike)Evade (Head Shot)2,036 (Infiltrator's Strike)1,737 (Slice)1,803 (Slash)325 (Nourishment)2,048 (Steal)Interrupt (Steal)3,899 (Crippling Strike)Absorb (Crippled)Absorb (Weakness)Absorb (Slice)807 (Black Powder)325 (Nourishment)755 (Black Powder)"

Yeah, thief can spam high damage skills because of initiative. And I use "roll for initiative" if I spam too fast and need more right away. High damage. Hard CC. Ports and movement. Evades in weapons along with dodges. Passive generating resource.

You can defend poor balance, and designs that are meant for pve that were shoved into pvp modes, all you want, but we aren't stupid. And E-Sports obviously failed for many reasons, so you should think about that.

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