Jump to content
  • Sign Up

Elite-level specializations for basic professions


Recommended Posts

@Dante.1508 said:

@Dante.1508 said:Agreed this game gives zero choice these days.. its either play the power creep expac specs or nothing at all... Its crazy that they totally voided their old content and will not overhaul.. The game is stagnating and dying due to Anets way of game design.

@Voltekka.2375 said:I am pretty sure this would simply break competitive modes even more. As it is, core professions excel still in wvw roaming/smallscale and in pvp. Core guard, mesmer, thief, ele (yes, ele), necro, warrior, theyre absolutely more than just viable. I cant even begin to imagine a more buffed core warr, or thief.

As I said, I don't care about competitive modes. This idea would be for PvE.

Fair enough. Yet i still fail to understand how anyone cant clear pve with core classes, even today...

Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

Ever tried a minon master necro?

So we are all suppose to play 6 characters to be as good as an one elite spec..

@Daddicus.6128 said:Let's try a different tack: Can someone please justify why an elite specialization is always more powerful than the profession it is built upon? And, there is no option to play the basic profession at the same relative power level?

I don't know what you are talking about...

There is a ton of core builds which perform very close to elite specialization levels like core power guardian (easy 32-33k dps benchmark on golem) and core banner warrior (still a very valid and strong support warrior build). Most other classes have builds which are no further than maybe 10-15% in performance output on their core builds with the main inconsistencies being among support classes which have their support skills tied to elite specializations (like druid versus core ranger).

As mentioned by me earlier: buffing core trait lines would not open up any or even close to as many role options as a new elite specialization could. As such if you want overall better class representation (at least that is what I'd be in favor of) it makes more sense to introduce a new elite specialization.

This gets even more critical if we look at all game modes where just about every class has viable core builds in some game mode (with the only real exception being elementalist and mesmer).

@Dante.1508 said:Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

That is strait up untrue. If people have issues on ANY class or build in any story or open world content, it's a player issue. There is enough guides and core build guides available for players who struggle to improve. As a matter of fact, most people who come to the "Players Helping Players" section of the forums asking for help often have huge flaws in their builds, playstyle and execution (which is not their fault, that's what asking for help is for).

The only content which is remotely affected by core versus elite specialization balance is either top end pve content where every little bit difference counts, or competative modes (where a lot more core builds work just fine atm). In most cases due to better support role availability of elite specializations for group content, where as solo or small scale content see a lot of core build gameplay still (in competative modes for example).

If this is true why aren't the core builds all over metabattle, 99.9% of the builds are espec builds... For ever style of content not just hardcore raiding.

Maybe actually go to metabattle and check. Each and every class has core builds in at least 1 or 2 game modes.

In other cases core builds are not able to peform a certain role (like healig or boon support). That wouldn't change with adjustments to core trait lines as discussed in this thread since these are often related to mechanics.

As for open world content, there is enough core builds which are rated high or better (4+) for every class.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 99
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Dante.1508 said:Agreed this game gives zero choice these days.. its either play the power creep expac specs or nothing at all... Its crazy that they totally voided their old content and will not overhaul.. The game is stagnating and dying due to Anets way of game design.

@Voltekka.2375 said:I am pretty sure this would simply break competitive modes even more. As it is, core professions excel still in wvw roaming/smallscale and in pvp. Core guard, mesmer, thief, ele (yes, ele), necro, warrior, theyre absolutely more than just viable. I cant even begin to imagine a more buffed core warr, or thief.

As I said, I don't care about competitive modes. This idea would be for PvE.

Fair enough. Yet i still fail to understand how anyone cant clear pve with core classes, even today...

Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

Ever tried a minon master necro?

So we are all suppose to play 6 characters to be as good as an one elite spec..

@Daddicus.6128 said:Let's try a different tack: Can someone please justify why an elite specialization is always more powerful than the profession it is built upon? And, there is no option to play the basic profession at the same relative power level?

I don't know what you are talking about...

There is a ton of core builds which perform very close to elite specialization levels like core power guardian (easy 32-33k dps benchmark on golem) and core banner warrior (still a very valid and strong support warrior build). Most other classes have builds which are no further than maybe 10-15% in performance output on their core builds with the main inconsistencies being among support classes which have their support skills tied to elite specializations (like druid versus core ranger).

As mentioned by me earlier: buffing core trait lines would not open up any or even close to as many role options as a new elite specialization could. As such if you want overall better class representation (at least that is what I'd be in favor of) it makes more sense to introduce a new elite specialization.

This gets even more critical if we look at all game modes where just about every class has viable core builds in some game mode (with the only real exception being elementalist and mesmer).

@Dante.1508 said:Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

That is strait up untrue. If people have issues on ANY class or build in any story or open world content, it's a player issue. There is enough guides and core build guides available for players who struggle to improve. As a matter of fact, most people who come to the "Players Helping Players" section of the forums asking for help often have huge flaws in their builds, playstyle and execution (which is not their fault, that's what asking for help is for).

The only content which is remotely affected by core versus elite specialization balance is either top end pve content where every little bit difference counts, or competative modes (where a lot more core builds work just fine atm). In most cases due to better support role availability of elite specializations for group content, where as solo or small scale content see a lot of core build gameplay still (in competative modes for example).

If this is true why aren't the core builds all over metabattle, 99.9% of the builds are espec builds... For ever style of content not just hardcore raiding.

Maybe actually go to metabattle and check. Each and every class has core builds in at least 1 or 2 game modes.

In other cases core builds are not able to peform a certain role (like healig or boon support). That wouldn't change with adjustments to core trait lines as discussed in this thread since these are often related to mechanics.

As for open world content, there is enough core builds which are rated high or better (4+) for every class.

I check every day, the core builds are sub par and are the minority compared to especs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Dante.1508 said:

@Dante.1508 said:Agreed this game gives zero choice these days.. its either play the power creep expac specs or nothing at all... Its crazy that they totally voided their old content and will not overhaul.. The game is stagnating and dying due to Anets way of game design.

@Voltekka.2375 said:I am pretty sure this would simply break competitive modes even more. As it is, core professions excel still in wvw roaming/smallscale and in pvp. Core guard, mesmer, thief, ele (yes, ele), necro, warrior, theyre absolutely more than just viable. I cant even begin to imagine a more buffed core warr, or thief.

As I said, I don't care about competitive modes. This idea would be for PvE.

Fair enough. Yet i still fail to understand how anyone cant clear pve with core classes, even today...

Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

Ever tried a minon master necro?

So we are all suppose to play 6 characters to be as good as an one elite spec..

@Daddicus.6128 said:Let's try a different tack: Can someone please justify why an elite specialization is always more powerful than the profession it is built upon? And, there is no option to play the basic profession at the same relative power level?

I don't know what you are talking about...

There is a ton of core builds which perform very close to elite specialization levels like core power guardian (easy 32-33k dps benchmark on golem) and core banner warrior (still a very valid and strong support warrior build). Most other classes have builds which are no further than maybe 10-15% in performance output on their core builds with the main inconsistencies being among support classes which have their support skills tied to elite specializations (like druid versus core ranger).

As mentioned by me earlier: buffing core trait lines would not open up any or even close to as many role options as a new elite specialization could. As such if you want overall better class representation (at least that is what I'd be in favor of) it makes more sense to introduce a new elite specialization.

This gets even more critical if we look at all game modes where just about every class has viable core builds in some game mode (with the only real exception being elementalist and mesmer).

@Dante.1508 said:Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

That is strait up untrue. If people have issues on ANY class or build in any story or open world content, it's a player issue. There is enough guides and core build guides available for players who struggle to improve. As a matter of fact, most people who come to the "Players Helping Players" section of the forums asking for help often have huge flaws in their builds, playstyle and execution (which is not their fault, that's what asking for help is for).

The only content which is remotely affected by core versus elite specialization balance is either top end pve content where every little bit difference counts, or competative modes (where a lot more core builds work just fine atm). In most cases due to better support role availability of elite specializations for group content, where as solo or small scale content see a lot of core build gameplay still (in competative modes for example).

If this is true why aren't the core builds all over metabattle, 99.9% of the builds are espec builds... For ever style of content not just hardcore raiding.

Maybe actually go to metabattle and check. Each and every class has core builds in at least 1 or 2 game modes.

In other cases core builds are not able to peform a certain role (like healig or boon support). That wouldn't change with adjustments to core trait lines as discussed in this thread since these are often related to mechanics.

As for open world content, there is enough core builds which are rated high or better (4+) for every class.

I check every day, the core builds are sub par and are the minority compared to especs.

Except they are not subpar going by rating and more than capable to clear ANY PvE open world, dungeon or story content.

Them being in a minority is also not of consequence, or is this about core builds outperforming elite? Because last I checked, this thread was about making core builds viable. Which they are. Some even meta.

That's only PvE too, since in competative modes core builds see even more play.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Dante.1508 said:

@Dante.1508 said:Agreed this game gives zero choice these days.. its either play the power creep expac specs or nothing at all... Its crazy that they totally voided their old content and will not overhaul.. The game is stagnating and dying due to Anets way of game design.

@Voltekka.2375 said:I am pretty sure this would simply break competitive modes even more. As it is, core professions excel still in wvw roaming/smallscale and in pvp. Core guard, mesmer, thief, ele (yes, ele), necro, warrior, theyre absolutely more than just viable. I cant even begin to imagine a more buffed core warr, or thief.

As I said, I don't care about competitive modes. This idea would be for PvE.

Fair enough. Yet i still fail to understand how anyone cant clear pve with core classes, even today...

Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

Ever tried a minon master necro?

So we are all suppose to play 6 characters to be as good as an one elite spec..

@Daddicus.6128 said:Let's try a different tack: Can someone please justify why an elite specialization is always more powerful than the profession it is built upon? And, there is no option to play the basic profession at the same relative power level?

I don't know what you are talking about...

There is a ton of core builds which perform very close to elite specialization levels like core power guardian (easy 32-33k dps benchmark on golem) and core banner warrior (still a very valid and strong support warrior build). Most other classes have builds which are no further than maybe 10-15% in performance output on their core builds with the main inconsistencies being among support classes which have their support skills tied to elite specializations (like druid versus core ranger).

As mentioned by me earlier: buffing core trait lines would not open up any or even close to as many role options as a new elite specialization could. As such if you want overall better class representation (at least that is what I'd be in favor of) it makes more sense to introduce a new elite specialization.

This gets even more critical if we look at all game modes where just about every class has viable core builds in some game mode (with the only real exception being elementalist and mesmer).

@Dante.1508 said:Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

That is strait up untrue. If people have issues on ANY class or build in any story or open world content, it's a player issue. There is enough guides and core build guides available for players who struggle to improve. As a matter of fact, most people who come to the "Players Helping Players" section of the forums asking for help often have huge flaws in their builds, playstyle and execution (which is not their fault, that's what asking for help is for).

The only content which is remotely affected by core versus elite specialization balance is either top end pve content where every little bit difference counts, or competative modes (where a lot more core builds work just fine atm). In most cases due to better support role availability of elite specializations for group content, where as solo or small scale content see a lot of core build gameplay still (in competative modes for example).

If this is true why aren't the core builds all over metabattle, 99.9% of the builds are espec builds... For ever style of content not just hardcore raiding.

Maybe actually go to metabattle and check. Each and every class has core builds in at least 1 or 2 game modes.

In other cases core builds are not able to peform a certain role (like healig or boon support). That wouldn't change with adjustments to core trait lines as discussed in this thread since these are often related to mechanics.

As for open world content, there is enough core builds which are rated high or better (4+) for every class.

I check every day, the core builds are sub par and are the minority compared to especs.

... No. That is false. Core specs that have made their way into metabattle as good/great, means that theyre usable instead of elite specs, too. Plus i dont really know why metabattle should dictate stuff. On a side note, have you ever tried to play minstrel core guard?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Daddicus.6128 said:

@Game of Bones.8975 said:I would still like to see a kick-kitten elite longbow ranger.I have the Dragonhunter for an elite bowman to run around with instead.

Exactly my point. Why on earth is a guardian better with a longbow than a ranger? That makes no sense whatsoever. Yet, here it stares us in the face.They're... not? Ranger longbow's still great on soulbeast, while dragonhunter longbow got nerfed into the ground (along with the traps) because of lazy PVPers.

But, you're making my point: a soulbeast is NOT a ranger. It's a soulbeast. Why does a ranger have to give up being a ranger in order to use a longbow?

To be fair, you asked why a Guardian is better than a Ranger with a longbow. By the logic of your statement here the answer is that, under no circumstances is a Guardian better at wielding a longbow because he cannot do so.

Ultimately, IMO, a Dragon Hunter is still a Guardian, He is just one who has trained for a bit more diversity than a core Guardian.

In my experience the real difference in potence for a power DH vs power Ranger is not the longbow, its the traps. DH has power traps that scale with his stats. Ranger traps, for the most part, do not scale well with a power build.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Daddicus.6128 said:

@"Aeolus.3615" said:a core spec would be interesting across all the game modes even... some stuff could be removed from its original trait and used to boost core elite spec.

Imo this would facilitate the balance team as well.

Yeah, it probably would give them more new work than I originally envisioned in the idea. But, I don't think it would be too much.

The nice thing is that since it would be PvE only, they don't have to worry about unbalancing competitive, which is where most of the balance changes seem to happen. I would guess for PvE, they simply count up the death ratios across Tyria, and then balance when they see imbalances. (For example, when they saw a chronomancer meta build on half the characters being played, they decided they had made them a little too powerful, and nerfed them. Happens almost every PvE balance build, and strongly indicates this would be almost trivial to balance.)

Actually the entire game been largely balanced around PVE (raids and Fractals) since 2014-2015 with the release of HOT. That was when they gave up on the ESL stuff, and thus game up on balancing the game around PvP. PvP and WvW gotten life-support balancing since then, WvW barely even that.

And even the balancing they do, they make sure not to make too large a difference between the modes, only numeric changes. Because they want you to be able to go from one mode to another and at least have a rough idea about what your build does (just with numeric changes). So they're not going to change the trait system in any way unless it also changes PvP/WvW (except pure numeric values, aka skill can give 1 or 3 bleed stacks or give 2 or 4 might etc).


So the easiest way to solve this, is just make the 5th line (only) a "core elite", change its first minor trait to give: "+1% damage in pvp, +10% damage in pve" or something like that.

But I'd still prefer to see them just nerf the Elites down to core level, like they promised when they introduced elites.

@Daddicus.6128 said:Let's try a different tack: Can someone please justify why an elite specialization is always more powerful than the profession it is built upon? And, there is no option to play the basic profession at the same relative power level?

Power-creep.

Specifically, ANet promised us that elites was to be a "side-grade" not an "up-grade", but they failed at that. (Can probably blame that on the above, old pvp balance team thrown to the wind and the new pve raid balance team goes in, and probably think more standard mmo progression?).

And I think it was Starlinvf that explained it very well in a post somewhere. But in short:

  • Each core class is designed with weaknesses
  • Each HoT Elite is designed to negate that weakness
  • Each PoF Elite is designed to let a class do what it does well even better

TLDR: because the elite's are poorly designed. Had the game still been designed around PvP balance, you'd see a completely different picture, one where elites would be very close to core in power level.

That said, there are still a few core builds that do well in the game. And yes a Soulbeast is still a ranger.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Dante.1508 said:Agreed this game gives zero choice these days.. its either play the power creep expac specs or nothing at all... Its crazy that they totally voided their old content and will not overhaul.. The game is stagnating and dying due to Anets way of game design.

@Voltekka.2375 said:I am pretty sure this would simply break competitive modes even more. As it is, core professions excel still in wvw roaming/smallscale and in pvp. Core guard, mesmer, thief, ele (yes, ele), necro, warrior, theyre absolutely more than just viable. I cant even begin to imagine a more buffed core warr, or thief.

As I said, I don't care about competitive modes. This idea would be for PvE.

Fair enough. Yet i still fail to understand how anyone cant clear pve with core classes, even today...

Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

Ever tried a minon master necro?

So we are all suppose to play 6 characters to be as good as an one elite spec..

@Daddicus.6128 said:Let's try a different tack: Can someone please justify why an elite specialization is always more powerful than the profession it is built upon? And, there is no option to play the basic profession at the same relative power level?

I don't know what you are talking about...

There is a ton of core builds which perform very close to elite specialization levels like core power guardian (easy 32-33k dps benchmark on golem) and core banner warrior (still a very valid and strong support warrior build). Most other classes have builds which are no further than maybe 10-15% in performance output on their core builds with the main inconsistencies being among support classes which have their support skills tied to elite specializations (like druid versus core ranger).

As mentioned by me earlier: buffing core trait lines would not open up any or even close to as many role options as a new elite specialization could. As such if you want overall better class representation (at least that is what I'd be in favor of) it makes more sense to introduce a new elite specialization.

This gets even more critical if we look at all game modes where just about every class has viable core builds in some game mode (with the only real exception being elementalist and mesmer).

@Dante.1508 said:Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

That is strait up untrue. If people have issues on ANY class or build in any story or open world content, it's a player issue. There is enough guides and core build guides available for players who struggle to improve. As a matter of fact, most people who come to the "Players Helping Players" section of the forums asking for help often have huge flaws in their builds, playstyle and execution (which is not their fault, that's what asking for help is for).

The only content which is remotely affected by core versus elite specialization balance is either top end pve content where every little bit difference counts, or competative modes (where a lot more core builds work just fine atm). In most cases due to better support role availability of elite specializations for group content, where as solo or small scale content see a lot of core build gameplay still (in competative modes for example).

If this is true why aren't the core builds all over metabattle, 99.9% of the builds are espec builds... For ever style of content not just hardcore raiding.

Maybe actually go to metabattle and check. Each and every class has core builds in at least 1 or 2 game modes.

In other cases core builds are not able to peform a certain role (like healig or boon support). That wouldn't change with adjustments to core trait lines as discussed in this thread since these are often related to mechanics.

As for open world content, there is enough core builds which are rated high or better (4+) for every class.

I check every day, the core builds are sub par and are the minority compared to especs.

Except they are not subpar going by rating and more than capable to clear ANY PvE open world, dungeon or story content.

Them being in a minority is also not of consequence, or is this about core builds outperforming elite? Because last I checked, this thread was about making core builds viable. Which they are. Some even meta.

That's only PvE too, since in competative modes core builds see even more play.

They are meta builds because there are a large number of characters who can't use elites.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@joneirikb.7506 said:

@"Aeolus.3615" said:a core spec would be interesting across all the game modes even... some stuff could be removed from its original trait and used to boost core elite spec.

Imo this would facilitate the balance team as well.

Yeah, it probably would give them more new work than I originally envisioned in the idea. But, I don't think it would be too much.

The nice thing is that since it would be PvE only, they don't have to worry about unbalancing competitive, which is where most of the balance changes seem to happen. I would guess for PvE, they simply count up the death ratios across Tyria, and then balance when they see imbalances. (For example, when they saw a chronomancer meta build on half the characters being played, they decided they had made them a little too powerful, and nerfed them. Happens almost every PvE balance build, and strongly indicates this would be almost trivial to balance.)

Actually the entire game been largely balanced around PVE (raids and Fractals) since 2014-2015 with the release of HOT. That was when they gave up on the ESL stuff, and thus game up on balancing the game around PvP. PvP and WvW gotten life-support balancing since then, WvW barely even that.

And even the balancing they do, they make sure not to make too large a difference between the modes, only numeric changes. Because they want you to be able to go from one mode to another and at least have a rough idea about what your build does (just with numeric changes). So they're not going to change the trait system in any way unless it also changes PvP/WvW (except pure numeric values, aka skill can give 1 or 3 bleed stacks or give 2 or 4 might etc).

So the easiest way to solve this, is just make the 5th line (only) a "core elite", change its first minor trait to give: "+1% damage in pvp, +10% damage in pve" or something like that.

But I'd still prefer to see them just nerf the Elites down to core level, like they promised when they introduced elites.

@Daddicus.6128 said:Let's try a different tack: Can someone please justify why an elite specialization is always more powerful than the profession it is built upon? And, there is no option to play the basic profession at the same relative power level?

Power-creep.

Specifically, ANet promised us that elites was to be a "side-grade" not an "up-grade", but they failed at that. (Can probably blame that on the above, old pvp balance team thrown to the wind and the new pve raid balance team goes in, and probably think more standard mmo progression?).

And I think it was Starlinvf that explained it very well in a post somewhere. But in short:
  • Each core class is designed with weaknesses
  • Each HoT Elite is designed to negate that weakness
  • Each PoF Elite is designed to let a class do what it does well even better

TLDR: because the elite's are poorly designed. Had the game still been designed around PvP balance, you'd see a completely different picture, one where elites would be very close to core in power level.

That said, there are still a few core builds that do well in the game. And yes a Soulbeast is still a ranger.

Power-creep is HOW it works. I was asking WHY. In other words, the logic behind the decision to make them more lucrative to use. But, you did explain that, too: it was unintentional.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"joneirikb.7506" said:This has been mentioned and discussed many times in the past, if curious about more details search for some of the old threads.

But basically the most "likely" way to solve that, is to promote the 5th traitline of each class into a specific "core-elite-spez". I'll use guardian as an example, so the trait line "Virtues" (which is the one that affects the virtues the guardians class mechanic) would be promoted to a elite variant.

  • This means it can't be equipped until level 71 (unlock the 3rd trait line)
  • Can't be used together with other Elite's (can't mix Virtues with DH or FB)
  • Would still not get any own skills or weapons
  • Would allow ANet to balance it to compensate for the difference in power with the existing elites, easier to balance
  • Limits most classes from double stacking traits that changes how their profession mechanic works (example no stacking Beast Mastery and SoulBeast for ranger)
  • Somewhat hard lock core into playing with their new core-elite because a large part of their power will be focused in that traitline. (most likely by having some big +X% damage bonuses tied into it, to compensate for the generally higher bonuses of elites)
  • Would effectively reduce the amount of core builds most people use, since everyone would feel "forced" into using Virtues if they don't use the expansion elites. Essentially you could break down most builds to "run one of the 3, then build after what you want that elite to do".

This will have major cascading issues, which will vary significantly. Using guardian as an example, PvE, no build currently uses virtues. Power dps is zeal/radiance/DH. Condi dps is zeal/radiance/FB. Support and Quic brand use radiance/honor/FB. sPvP on the other hand, all builds use virtues, even the under performing ones. This will be a major nerf in sPvP with relatively no changes in PvE (unless virtues damage bonus is high enough to dethrone one of the dps builds, or about the same level). To compensate, other lines will need to buffed in some form to fill in the gap. But, what about core builds not using virtues? They would not count?

I do not think it is a bad idea, but will require a significant amount of work. And if Anet will do that, I think what would work better is all lines (including elites) to be closer in power, with elites offering different game play style.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Daddicus.6128 said:

@Dante.1508 said:Agreed this game gives zero choice these days.. its either play the power creep expac specs or nothing at all... Its crazy that they totally voided their old content and will not overhaul.. The game is stagnating and dying due to Anets way of game design.

@Voltekka.2375 said:I am pretty sure this would simply break competitive modes even more. As it is, core professions excel still in wvw roaming/smallscale and in pvp. Core guard, mesmer, thief, ele (yes, ele), necro, warrior, theyre absolutely more than just viable. I cant even begin to imagine a more buffed core warr, or thief.

As I said, I don't care about competitive modes. This idea would be for PvE.

Fair enough. Yet i still fail to understand how anyone cant clear pve with core classes, even today...

Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

Ever tried a minon master necro?

So we are all suppose to play 6 characters to be as good as an one elite spec..

@Daddicus.6128 said:Let's try a different tack: Can someone please justify why an elite specialization is always more powerful than the profession it is built upon? And, there is no option to play the basic profession at the same relative power level?

I don't know what you are talking about...

There is a ton of core builds which perform very close to elite specialization levels like core power guardian (easy 32-33k dps benchmark on golem) and core banner warrior (still a very valid and strong support warrior build). Most other classes have builds which are no further than maybe 10-15% in performance output on their core builds with the main inconsistencies being among support classes which have their support skills tied to elite specializations (like druid versus core ranger).

As mentioned by me earlier: buffing core trait lines would not open up any or even close to as many role options as a new elite specialization could. As such if you want overall better class representation (at least that is what I'd be in favor of) it makes more sense to introduce a new elite specialization.

This gets even more critical if we look at all game modes where just about every class has viable core builds in some game mode (with the only real exception being elementalist and mesmer).

@Dante.1508 said:Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

That is strait up untrue. If people have issues on ANY class or build in any story or open world content, it's a player issue. There is enough guides and core build guides available for players who struggle to improve. As a matter of fact, most people who come to the "Players Helping Players" section of the forums asking for help often have huge flaws in their builds, playstyle and execution (which is not their fault, that's what asking for help is for).

The only content which is remotely affected by core versus elite specialization balance is either top end pve content where every little bit difference counts, or competative modes (where a lot more core builds work just fine atm). In most cases due to better support role availability of elite specializations for group content, where as solo or small scale content see a lot of core build gameplay still (in competative modes for example).

If this is true why aren't the core builds all over metabattle, 99.9% of the builds are espec builds... For ever style of content not just hardcore raiding.

Maybe actually go to metabattle and check. Each and every class has core builds in at least 1 or 2 game modes.

In other cases core builds are not able to peform a certain role (like healig or boon support). That wouldn't change with adjustments to core trait lines as discussed in this thread since these are often related to mechanics.

As for open world content, there is enough core builds which are rated high or better (4+) for every class.

I check every day, the core builds are sub par and are the minority compared to especs.

Except they are not subpar going by rating and more than capable to clear ANY PvE open world, dungeon or story content.

Them being in a minority is also not of consequence, or is this about core builds outperforming elite? Because last I checked, this thread was about making core builds viable. Which they are. Some even meta.

That's only PvE too, since in competative modes core builds see even more play.

They are meta builds because there are a large number of characters who can't use elites.

No they are not. They are meta builds because they perform very well in the content.

The guardian and warrior core builds for example for raids/fractals are en par with elite builds for example pushing 33-35k damage on golem (guardian) or 26-28k damage on golem with heavy support in form of cc and banners (warrior).

For competative game modes, some of the core builds are meta because they are that well at fullfilling their designated role.

You can keep telling yourself core builds are far behind elite specializations if it makes you feel better in case you are struggling. That's not the case though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@otto.5684 said:

@"joneirikb.7506" said:This has been mentioned and discussed many times in the past, if curious about more details search for some of the old threads.

But basically the most "likely" way to solve that, is to promote the 5th traitline of each class into a specific "core-elite-spez". I'll use guardian as an example, so the trait line "Virtues" (which is the one that affects the virtues the guardians class mechanic) would be promoted to a elite variant.
  • This means it can't be equipped until level 71 (unlock the 3rd trait line)
  • Can't be used together with other Elite's (can't mix Virtues with DH or FB)
  • Would still not get any own skills or weapons
  • Would allow ANet to balance it to compensate for the difference in power with the existing elites, easier to balance
  • Limits most classes from double stacking traits that changes how their profession mechanic works (example no stacking Beast Mastery and SoulBeast for ranger)
  • Somewhat hard lock core into playing with their new core-elite because a large part of their power will be focused in that traitline. (most likely by having some big +X% damage bonuses tied into it, to compensate for the generally higher bonuses of elites)
  • Would effectively reduce the amount of core builds most people use, since everyone would feel "forced" into using Virtues if they don't use the expansion elites. Essentially you could break down most builds to "run one of the 3, then build after what you want that elite to do".

This will have major cascading issues, which will vary significantly. Using guardian as an example, PvE, no build currently uses virtues. Power dps is zeal/radiance/DH. Condi dps is zeal/radiance/FB. Support and Quic brand use radiance/honor/FB. sPvP on the other hand, all builds use virtues, even the under performing ones. This will be a major nerf in sPvP with relatively no changes in PvE (unless virtues damage bonus is high enough to dethrone one of the dps builds, or about the same level). To compensate, other lines will need to buffed in some form to fill in the gap. But, what about core builds not using virtues? They would not count?

I do not think it is a bad idea, but will require a significant amount of work. And if Anet will do that, I think what would work better is all lines (including elites) to be closer in power, with elites offering different game play style.

Agreed it would, this is just what I imagine to be the least work from ANet AND the least impact compared to most other ideas I've seen and heard regarding buffing core to meet elites. And yes indeed, a core build not using their 5th tier would very likely under-perform unless it has some kind of good combo without.

But I absolutely agree and hope for them to reduce elites down to core level, and balance them all around the same power-level. I miss a game where you don't die in WvW the moment you run out of chainable blocks and invulnerables.

@Strider Pj.2193 said:understand I haven’t read every response

Why is it that the ‘core specs’ need to be ‘brought up to the level’ of elite specs?

That is just more power creep.

Scale back the elite lines. Bring them DOWN to the level of the core specs.

This, so much.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Voltekka.2375 said:

@Dante.1508 said:Agreed this game gives zero choice these days.. its either play the power creep expac specs or nothing at all... Its crazy that they totally voided their old content and will not overhaul.. The game is stagnating and dying due to Anets way of game design.

@Voltekka.2375 said:I am pretty sure this would simply break competitive modes even more. As it is, core professions excel still in wvw roaming/smallscale and in pvp. Core guard, mesmer, thief, ele (yes, ele), necro, warrior, theyre absolutely more than just viable. I cant even begin to imagine a more buffed core warr, or thief.

As I said, I don't care about competitive modes. This idea would be for PvE.

Fair enough. Yet i still fail to understand how anyone cant clear pve with core classes, even today...

Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

Ever tried a minon master necro?

So we are all suppose to play 6 characters to be as good as an one elite spec..

@Daddicus.6128 said:Let's try a different tack: Can someone please justify why an elite specialization is always more powerful than the profession it is built upon? And, there is no option to play the basic profession at the same relative power level?

I don't know what you are talking about...

There is a ton of core builds which perform very close to elite specialization levels like core power guardian (easy 32-33k dps benchmark on golem) and core banner warrior (still a very valid and strong support warrior build). Most other classes have builds which are no further than maybe 10-15% in performance output on their core builds with the main inconsistencies being among support classes which have their support skills tied to elite specializations (like druid versus core ranger).

As mentioned by me earlier: buffing core trait lines would not open up any or even close to as many role options as a new elite specialization could. As such if you want overall better class representation (at least that is what I'd be in favor of) it makes more sense to introduce a new elite specialization.

This gets even more critical if we look at all game modes where just about every class has viable core builds in some game mode (with the only real exception being elementalist and mesmer).

@Dante.1508 said:Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

That is strait up untrue. If people have issues on ANY class or build in any story or open world content, it's a player issue. There is enough guides and core build guides available for players who struggle to improve. As a matter of fact, most people who come to the "Players Helping Players" section of the forums asking for help often have huge flaws in their builds, playstyle and execution (which is not their fault, that's what asking for help is for).

The only content which is remotely affected by core versus elite specialization balance is either top end pve content where every little bit difference counts, or competative modes (where a lot more core builds work just fine atm). In most cases due to better support role availability of elite specializations for group content, where as solo or small scale content see a lot of core build gameplay still (in competative modes for example).

If this is true why aren't the core builds all over metabattle, 99.9% of the builds are espec builds... For ever style of content not just hardcore raiding.

Maybe actually go to metabattle and check. Each and every class has core builds in at least 1 or 2 game modes.

In other cases core builds are not able to peform a certain role (like healig or boon support). That wouldn't change with adjustments to core trait lines as discussed in this thread since these are often related to mechanics.

As for open world content, there is enough core builds which are rated high or better (4+) for every class.

I check every day, the core builds are sub par and are the minority compared to especs.

... No. That is false. Core specs that have made their way into metabattle as good/great, means that theyre usable instead of elite specs, too. Plus i dont really know why metabattle should dictate stuff. On a side note, have you ever tried to play minstrel core guard?

I have not and with how hard making armor is these days and how hard "grindy" it is getting modern inscriptions is i tend to avoid the no name ones outside of Marauders and Vipers.. Mostly because GW2 made making armor a hideous thing these days..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"kharmin.7683" said:Bringing elites lines down to core wouldn't necessarily make them "elite" anymore.

It wouldn’t necessarily not either..

By choosing them, you get access to new class specs, new weapons, and in many cases significantly different play styles.

Elite has become ‘effectively better’

It needn’t be that way at all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Dante.1508 said:

@Dante.1508 said:Agreed this game gives zero choice these days.. its either play the power creep expac specs or nothing at all... Its crazy that they totally voided their old content and will not overhaul.. The game is stagnating and dying due to Anets way of game design.

@Voltekka.2375 said:I am pretty sure this would simply break competitive modes even more. As it is, core professions excel still in wvw roaming/smallscale and in pvp. Core guard, mesmer, thief, ele (yes, ele), necro, warrior, theyre absolutely more than just viable. I cant even begin to imagine a more buffed core warr, or thief.

As I said, I don't care about competitive modes. This idea would be for PvE.

Fair enough. Yet i still fail to understand how anyone cant clear pve with core classes, even today...

Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

Ever tried a minon master necro?

So we are all suppose to play 6 characters to be as good as an one elite spec..

@Daddicus.6128 said:Let's try a different tack: Can someone please justify why an elite specialization is always more powerful than the profession it is built upon? And, there is no option to play the basic profession at the same relative power level?

I don't know what you are talking about...

There is a ton of core builds which perform very close to elite specialization levels like core power guardian (easy 32-33k dps benchmark on golem) and core banner warrior (still a very valid and strong support warrior build). Most other classes have builds which are no further than maybe 10-15% in performance output on their core builds with the main inconsistencies being among support classes which have their support skills tied to elite specializations (like druid versus core ranger).

As mentioned by me earlier: buffing core trait lines would not open up any or even close to as many role options as a new elite specialization could. As such if you want overall better class representation (at least that is what I'd be in favor of) it makes more sense to introduce a new elite specialization.

This gets even more critical if we look at all game modes where just about every class has viable core builds in some game mode (with the only real exception being elementalist and mesmer).

@Dante.1508 said:Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

That is strait up untrue. If people have issues on ANY class or build in any story or open world content, it's a player issue. There is enough guides and core build guides available for players who struggle to improve. As a matter of fact, most people who come to the "Players Helping Players" section of the forums asking for help often have huge flaws in their builds, playstyle and execution (which is not their fault, that's what asking for help is for).

The only content which is remotely affected by core versus elite specialization balance is either top end pve content where every little bit difference counts, or competative modes (where a lot more core builds work just fine atm). In most cases due to better support role availability of elite specializations for group content, where as solo or small scale content see a lot of core build gameplay still (in competative modes for example).

If this is true why aren't the core builds all over metabattle, 99.9% of the builds are espec builds... For ever style of content not just hardcore raiding.

Maybe actually go to metabattle and check. Each and every class has core builds in at least 1 or 2 game modes.

In other cases core builds are not able to peform a certain role (like healig or boon support). That wouldn't change with adjustments to core trait lines as discussed in this thread since these are often related to mechanics.

As for open world content, there is enough core builds which are rated high or better (4+) for every class.

I check every day, the core builds are sub par and are the minority compared to especs.

... No. That is false. Core specs that have made their way into metabattle as good/great, means that theyre usable instead of elite specs, too. Plus i dont really know why metabattle should dictate stuff. On a side note, have you ever tried to play minstrel core guard?

I have not and with how hard making armor is these days and how hard "grindy" it is getting modern inscriptions is i tend to avoid the no name ones outside of Marauders and Vipers.. Mostly because GW2 made making armor a hideous thing these days..

Minstrel is a HoT stat. Making armor is easier than ever. If you want to play healer, what stats do you use?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Dante.1508 said:

@Dante.1508 said:Agreed this game gives zero choice these days.. its either play the power creep expac specs or nothing at all... Its crazy that they totally voided their old content and will not overhaul.. The game is stagnating and dying due to Anets way of game design.

@Voltekka.2375 said:I am pretty sure this would simply break competitive modes even more. As it is, core professions excel still in wvw roaming/smallscale and in pvp. Core guard, mesmer, thief, ele (yes, ele), necro, warrior, theyre absolutely more than just viable. I cant even begin to imagine a more buffed core warr, or thief.

As I said, I don't care about competitive modes. This idea would be for PvE.

Fair enough. Yet i still fail to understand how anyone cant clear pve with core classes, even today...

Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

Ever tried a minon master necro?

So we are all suppose to play 6 characters to be as good as an one elite spec..

@Daddicus.6128 said:Let's try a different tack: Can someone please justify why an elite specialization is always more powerful than the profession it is built upon? And, there is no option to play the basic profession at the same relative power level?

I don't know what you are talking about...

There is a ton of core builds which perform very close to elite specialization levels like core power guardian (easy 32-33k dps benchmark on golem) and core banner warrior (still a very valid and strong support warrior build). Most other classes have builds which are no further than maybe 10-15% in performance output on their core builds with the main inconsistencies being among support classes which have their support skills tied to elite specializations (like druid versus core ranger).

As mentioned by me earlier: buffing core trait lines would not open up any or even close to as many role options as a new elite specialization could. As such if you want overall better class representation (at least that is what I'd be in favor of) it makes more sense to introduce a new elite specialization.

This gets even more critical if we look at all game modes where just about every class has viable core builds in some game mode (with the only real exception being elementalist and mesmer).

@Dante.1508 said:Most core classes have real issues surviving and passing Expac and living story content because of the power creep.. the newer content is extremely OP to them.. The only core class i can think of that breezes through later content imo is Engi.

That is strait up untrue. If people have issues on ANY class or build in any story or open world content, it's a player issue. There is enough guides and core build guides available for players who struggle to improve. As a matter of fact, most people who come to the "Players Helping Players" section of the forums asking for help often have huge flaws in their builds, playstyle and execution (which is not their fault, that's what asking for help is for).

The only content which is remotely affected by core versus elite specialization balance is either top end pve content where every little bit difference counts, or competative modes (where a lot more core builds work just fine atm). In most cases due to better support role availability of elite specializations for group content, where as solo or small scale content see a lot of core build gameplay still (in competative modes for example).

If this is true why aren't the core builds all over metabattle, 99.9% of the builds are espec builds... For ever style of content not just hardcore raiding.

Maybe actually go to metabattle and check. Each and every class has core builds in at least 1 or 2 game modes.

In other cases core builds are not able to peform a certain role (like healig or boon support). That wouldn't change with adjustments to core trait lines as discussed in this thread since these are often related to mechanics.

As for open world content, there is enough core builds which are rated high or better (4+) for every class.

I check every day, the core builds are sub par and are the minority compared to especs.

... No. That is false. Core specs that have made their way into metabattle as good/great, means that theyre usable instead of elite specs, too. Plus i dont really know why metabattle should dictate stuff. On a side note, have you ever tried to play minstrel core guard?

I have not and with how hard making armor is these days and how hard "grindy" it is getting modern inscriptions is i tend to avoid the no name ones outside of Marauders and Vipers.. Mostly because GW2 made making armor a hideous thing these days..

Ascended armor used to be 600-800 gold. Now it's barely 300 for a full set.

Minstrel has become a lot cheaper too with Freshwater Pearls going from 5-7 gold to 3-4 gold. Reforging was added a while ago. There is tons of achievements which reward ascended armor pieces and weapons. Trinkets are almost irrelevant to acquire difficulty wise thanks to Season 3 and 4 and achievements.

So once again, I have no clue what you are talking about. Are you even playing this game?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@"kharmin.7683" said:Bringing elites lines down to core wouldn't necessarily make them "elite" anymore.

It wouldn’t necessarily not either..

By choosing them, you get access to new class specs, new weapons, and in many cases significantly different play styles.

Elite has become ‘effectively better’

It needn’t be that way at all.

elite (noun) a select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group or society.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Providence.7185 said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:And why would anyone wanna buy expansions, in that case?Edit: the fact that you cant play guard healer isnt druid. Its firebrand.

You raise a good point. However, it goes beyond what you stated. Buying the expansions is not enough to get the elite specs. It simply makes them available.

To get use the elite specs a new player must 1) purchase the expansions as you stated, 2) get the necessary glider / mounts for step #3, and level up said mounts and 3) get the hero points in expansion content - all this on an under powered (in most cases) core spec.

Or you are a regular WvW player and just buy the points with your excess on proof of heroics and are done in a few seconds. Just saying ...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@kharmin.7683 said:

@kharmin.7683 said:Bringing elites lines down to core wouldn't necessarily make them "elite" anymore.

It wouldn’t necessarily not either..

By choosing them, you get access to new class specs, new weapons, and in many cases significantly different play styles.

Elite has become ‘effectively better’

It needn’t be that way at all.

elite (noun) a select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group or society.

Which is just to say that they picked a bad name for them :)

The idea they tried to design them around was to be "specialists". They seemingly did as bad a job of designing that as they did naming it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@kharmin.7683 said:

@kharmin.7683 said:Bringing elites lines down to core wouldn't necessarily make them "elite" anymore.

It wouldn’t necessarily not either..

By choosing them, you get access to new class specs, new weapons, and in many cases significantly different play styles.

Elite has become ‘effectively better’

It needn’t be that way at all.

elite (noun) a select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group or society.

Hmm., not sure if that was an attempt at condescension or not. Thank you for posting that definition for others.

If we were to parse every phrase and description Anet gives, I think that you would see the fallacy in that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Strider Pj.2193" said:Hmm., not sure if that was an attempt at condescension or not. Thank you for posting that definition for others.

If we were to parse every phrase and description Anet gives, I think that you would see the fallacy in that.

No, not an attempt to condescend. Sorry if you heard it that way. Just a clarification of what "elite" means.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@kharmin.7683 said:

@"Strider Pj.2193" said:Hmm., not sure if that was an attempt at condescension or not. Thank you for posting that definition for others.

If we were to parse every phrase and description Anet gives, I think that you would see the fallacy in that.

No, not an attempt to condescend. Sorry if you heard it that way. Just a clarification of what "elite" means.

Fair enough.

It’s easy to read too much into the forums. That’s why I answered it the way I did. Didn’t want to assume. ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...