Suggestion: Out-of-Combat Perma-Stealth Elite

[rdigeri.7935]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@wisprr.4612 said:

@derd:

I don't see why that would be needed for something like this, and apparently neither does Kulvar. Could you please go into much more detail why you feel that way, and possible solutions?

have you lot ever played against a stealth class? in any game? it's horribleextremely unfun to play against since there's no way to counter a stealth initiative. most games have systems in place to add some counter play to such things but gw2 doesn't

Revealed is supposed to be a counter to stealth, however it is poorly implemented. They should really just get rid of Revealed.

I once suggested a counterplay to give Thieves, and only Thieves, the ability to detect all things hidden - stealth players, traps, preparations, etc. Since the Thief is proficient in Shadow Arts, they should have the innate ability to detect anything hidden. The stealth player will appear as smokey figure lurking around that can be targeted by the Thief. The range of this ability will be 600, so any stealth player who enters within 600 range of the Thief will appear as a targetable smokey figure. In addition, the Thief will also be able to target traps/preparation and attack it to disarm it. The traps will appears as a targetable smokey camp fire. This will make Thief a good roaming buddy.

This is pretty kitten cool.

So basically permastealth thieves are countered by less stealth centered thieves, but less stealth centered thieves have a harder time against other classes.

I wonder what the result would be from this.

Also, the result if this was true for all currently stealthed players

[derd.6413]

@rdigeri.7935 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@wisprr.4612 said:

@derd:

I don't see why that would be needed for something like this, and apparently neither does Kulvar. Could you please go into much more detail why you feel that way, and possible solutions?

have you lot ever played against a stealth class? in any game? it's horribleextremely unfun to play against since there's no way to counter a stealth initiative. most games have systems in place to add some counter play to such things but gw2 doesn't

Revealed is supposed to be a counter to stealth, however it is poorly implemented. They should really just get rid of Revealed.

I once suggested a counterplay to give Thieves, and only Thieves, the ability to detect all things hidden - stealth players, traps, preparations, etc. Since the Thief is proficient in Shadow Arts, they should have the innate ability to detect anything hidden. The stealth player will appear as smokey figure lurking around that can be targeted by the Thief. The range of this ability will be 600, so any stealth player who enters within 600 range of the Thief will appear as a targetable smokey figure. In addition, the Thief will also be able to target traps/preparation and attack it to disarm it. The traps will appears as a targetable smokey camp fire. This will make Thief a good roaming buddy.

This is pretty kitten cool.

So basically permastealth thieves are countered by less stealth centered thieves, but less stealth centered thieves have a harder time against other classes.

I wonder what the result would be from this.

Also, the result if this was true for all currently stealthed players

thief countering thief will just end with everybody playing thief so not much would change

[rdigeri.7935]

@derd.6413 said:

@rdigeri.7935 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@wisprr.4612 said:

@derd:

I don't see why that would be needed for something like this, and apparently neither does Kulvar. Could you please go into much more detail why you feel that way, and possible solutions?

have you lot ever played against a stealth class? in any game? it's horribleextremely unfun to play against since there's no way to counter a stealth initiative. most games have systems in place to add some counter play to such things but gw2 doesn't

Revealed is supposed to be a counter to stealth, however it is poorly implemented. They should really just get rid of Revealed.

I once suggested a counterplay to give Thieves, and only Thieves, the ability to detect all things hidden - stealth players, traps, preparations, etc. Since the Thief is proficient in Shadow Arts, they should have the innate ability to detect anything hidden. The stealth player will appear as smokey figure lurking around that can be targeted by the Thief. The range of this ability will be 600, so any stealth player who enters within 600 range of the Thief will appear as a targetable smokey figure. In addition, the Thief will also be able to target traps/preparation and attack it to disarm it. The traps will appears as a targetable smokey camp fire. This will make Thief a good roaming buddy.

This is pretty kitten cool.

So basically permastealth thieves are countered by less stealth centered thieves, but less stealth centered thieves have a harder time against other classes.

I wonder what the result would be from this.

Also, the result if this was true for all currently stealthed players

thief countering thief will just end with everybody playing thief so not much would change

Well, thief gameplay would. The days of "who can sustain stealth longer" would be over, and they'd all need to position well.

It'd probably make thief more of a teamplayer, keeping other stealthers in check, and vice versa.

Also, regular thief > permastealth thief > something else > regular thief..I think it'd balance itself out. Just maybe not in the way that lets all professions shine, that, you're right about.

[KrHome.1920]

This mechanic would be the definition of "not fun to play against" so it has good chances to be implemented in the next expac.

No one likes to be bound to reactive gameplay in a combat based game. It destroys at least 50% of the mechanic. There is no point in giving one spec even more control over the fight than the thief already has. It is already not very rewarding to fight thieves. Depending on the own build you either burst them which feels too easy or you can't do shit which is frustrating. The spec is already designed too much towards hit and run and the OP wants to raise this design flaw even more. No! That's a bad idea and not healthy for the game.

[rdigeri.7935]

@"KrHome.1920" said:This mechanic would be the definition of "not fun to play against" so it has good chances to be implemented in the next expac.

No one likes to be bound to reactive gameplay in a combat based game. It destroys at least 50% of the mechanic. There is no point in giving one spec even more control over the fight than the thief already has. It is already not very rewarding to fight thieves. Depending on the own build you either burst them which feels too easy or you can't do kitten which is frustrating. The spec is already designed too much towards hit and run and the OP wants to raise this design flaw even more. No! That's a bad idea and not healthy for the game.

What you said is all true, but the OP proposed an out of combat mechanic, which means it only lets thieves position themselves while not already engaged. A stealth-ending cast time would negate the problems of unavoidable attacking imo

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@derd.6413 said:

@rdigeri.7935 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@wisprr.4612 said:

@derd:

I don't see why that would be needed for something like this, and apparently neither does Kulvar. Could you please go into much more detail why you feel that way, and possible solutions?

have you lot ever played against a stealth class? in any game? it's horribleextremely unfun to play against since there's no way to counter a stealth initiative. most games have systems in place to add some counter play to such things but gw2 doesn't

Revealed is supposed to be a counter to stealth, however it is poorly implemented. They should really just get rid of Revealed.

I once suggested a counterplay to give Thieves, and only Thieves, the ability to detect all things hidden - stealth players, traps, preparations, etc. Since the Thief is proficient in Shadow Arts, they should have the innate ability to detect anything hidden. The stealth player will appear as smokey figure lurking around that can be targeted by the Thief. The range of this ability will be 600, so any stealth player who enters within 600 range of the Thief will appear as a targetable smokey figure. In addition, the Thief will also be able to target traps/preparation and attack it to disarm it. The traps will appears as a targetable smokey camp fire. This will make Thief a good roaming buddy.

This is pretty kitten cool.

So basically permastealth thieves are countered by less stealth centered thieves, but less stealth centered thieves have a harder time against other classes.

I wonder what the result would be from this.

Also, the result if this was true for all currently stealthed players

thief countering thief will just end with everybody playing thief so not much would change

Not quite. Skills like Sight Beyond Sight will have to function like this, giving the Revenant a short duration to detect hidden within the 600 range. If the Thief tries to reset by stealthing, the Ranger, for example, can use Sic'em to give their pet the ability to detect hidden for a short duration, so the Thief will turn into a smokey figure instead of invisible if they are stealthed within the 600 range. On the Thief's side, it doesn't lock them out from activating traits that triggers on stealth like what Revealed does.

[wisprr.4612]

Another simple solution to the hazards of using it against other players, is that plenty of skills work differently in their PvP version. Something like this is primarily intended for PvE where other players don't have to worry about it and it is against NPC enemies. It would be very ineffective in PvP matches no matter what, and in WvW it would be nice against the NPC mobs and just exploring, but when fighting other players it would actually lower the effectiveness against them. So why not just have the PvP version be combat stealth, and PvE out-of-combat?

@derd.6413 && @KrHome.1920: I am sorry, but I have felt the need to report both of your posts, if you desire to continue posting in this thread I would greatly appreciate it if you remain on topic please as I have previously indicated repeated times. Derd, I let it slide once, but between your twos' disruptive posts this thread has degenerated a great deal into something that is drastically off topic.

I would like to thank all those whom have actually read the posts and point out things that were clearly stated to those whom obviously either chose not to read them or they simply ignore what they have read. I am particularly appreciative for all the wonderful ideas people have come up with, you all make some really great points that help to flesh this idea out.

Finally, if this thread can not get back on topic, and I mean immediately after this post, I'm just going to ask a moderator to please lock it. If there is something you dislike about the idea, great, I Want you to contribute, however, there is a very large difference between Criticism and Constructive Criticism, the former of which is never welcome anywhere on the forums as it invites bickering as demonstrated above. Alternatively, I love constructive criticism, it's great that people don't agree upon everything as it helps to give fresh ideas some may not have thought of, only making whatever stronger in the end.

So please, if you can please only post ideas on how to implement this or ways to shore up shortcomings, it would mean the world to me. Thank you.

[Kageseigi.2150]

@"wisprr.4612" said:I thought of another possible way to do this also, it's be possible to have a Thief Kit skill that replaces all weapon skills, like the ones Engineers have

I've been wanting "Thief Kits" for years, though I'm thinking more for combat (as the Engineer has) to allow the Thief a LOT of flexibility to adapt to whatever opponent/build he is facing at the moment. I've even suggested making the Shortbow a kit instead of a weapon (allowing a Thief to take two combat weapon sets). Though I can certainly see one of the kits being Stealth/Deception oriented. I also like adding to the Thief's out-of-combat capability more... by adding something like an Opening Strike for the next initial attack. It may require stances or even trait choices (choose whether to gain OoC Stealth or OoC Opening Strikes or even OoC boons like Aegis/Alacrity/Quickness/Stability/Swiftness/Vigor).

Of course, I'd even be happy with the ability to stay Stealthed while remaining motionless. Not only would it help set up ambushes, but it would also allow for easier decaps/caps in PvP, though if used poorly, it would end up costing your team due to inactivity.

P.S. Can we at least get a Self-Reveal key? Not being able to voluntarily exit Stealth without a Rifle or hitting something is rather silly.

@KrHome.1920 said:It is already not very rewarding to fight AS thieves. Depending on the ENEMY build, you either burst them which feels too easy or you can't do kitten which is frustrating.

Changed it a bit to reflect the Thief's perspective. Though for most fights, they definitely tend to lean toward the latter situation.

[Antycypator.9874]

This would be nice, but lets add some things:Sneak mode

Deactivates all your weapon skills.Deactivates mounts.Taking any damage would cause reveal.Dodging near foes would cause reveal (600 range, 450 range if you're behind your enemy).Duration: 45 seconds.Reacharge time: remaining time + 15 seconds (if disabled by player or reveal), 15 seconds (if stealth ends).Disables all movement speed bonuses (swiftness, movement speed from Signet of Shadow, superspeed, traited movement speed in stealth).Does not stack with other stealth.

[wisprr.4612]

@Kageseigi.2150: Have various kits available with different functionalities would be a lot of fun too, I really like that since it does not limit the possibilities to just this idea, it can also be used to add other things as you suggest. And the traits is a really fun idea, it would be like the Daredevil replacing the evade with something else, give players the option to customize how certain core mechanics function for that character.

@Antycypator.9874: That is rather similar to @Kulvar.1239's idea above, making it something like a replacement for Steal, I really like the addition of disabling weapon skills, hell, along that vein that would solve some issues, make it a toggle like Kulvar said and disable /all/ skills periods, so you would have to toggle it off before attacking, or it gets dropped if you take damage as usual. I'm a little leery about about the duration and cooldown since it is intended for OoC only, but that may be necessary to balance it properly. I'd also refrain from the movement debuff since being on foot at this point already limits speed a great deal, but if all skills are disabled that would include signet passives and make it difficult to receive boons.

As far as not staking with 'combat stealth' that is a must, in fact, I think I'd be a bit more heavy-handed on that one, and if the character gained combat stealth the 'prowling' would be canceled completely.

And that just gave me another fun idea, incorporating 'class mounts'. They already have an Engage skill to go directly into combat as well as ability to dismount ending the effect, and you can only have a single mount active at any given time, plus it completely replaces all weapon and utility skills, so the mechanics already perform a lot of the functions we have mentioned here. It also controls Health and evasion gauges and you get dismounted after a certain amount of damage. So basically what I'm thinking for this one is have very low health that drops the effect if it goes away, it can be slotted in the quickmount thingie, no speed bonus for the thief like other mounts, just the stealth-like-effect. Plus it would be fun for other classes to get something special for them too, depending upon the flavor. Not to mention, mounts are intended for travel just like this idea, and primarily OoC like we have been talking, not to mention anything that disables mounts would also disable this, making it much more controllable in areas that are not intended to have enhanced movement.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

Scrapper cant hide in a keep indefinitely and portal people in

[anduriell.6280]

@"wisprr.4612" said:Disclaimer: Yes, I'm completely aware this has the potential to start a flame war, so please stay on topic and only post comments of how to implement something like this. It is not our place to decide what should not go in game, that is for the Devs to choose or not.

Rant: It drives me up the flipping wall how the Engineer Scrapper literally has the best stealth skill in-game, and they got an elite Stealth well before Thief did. Futhermore, if you are clever, yes, you can keep stealth up constantly if you don't attack, buuuuut only if you have a flipping rifle equiped. The hell, because a rifle is more sneaky then say two daggers? Or hell, even two pistols?!

I have been dreaming since forever that Thief would just have something as simple as an elite skill that you push once, it stealths you, you stay stealthed until you enter combat, and then it drops. That's it, if the devs wanted to make it more combat relevent give the player 3 secs of stealth at the beginning of combat.

From a programmer's perspective, I can think of multiple ways to implement this easy pleasy. As for other mechanics, using a gathering node drops you from stealth, but if you have the Stealth Gliding mastery unlocked gliding wouldn't. You'd also drop stealth when mounting or interacting with things, as normal. Technically the skill wouldn't even need a cooldown, just lock it's usage in combat. (Think of mounts, there is a sword across them when in combat, can literally do the same exact thing.) If you broke stealth outside of combat, give it like a 5 sec cooldown. Hell, if they really wanted to they could make a signet and just having it equiped generates the effect. As for the Stealth itself, there are plenty of buff-like-effects that have no timer on them, just copy and paste Stealth, give it a different name and icon, and write it without a timer while keeping all the normal interactions stealth has, such as reveal or what not. Call it Prowling or something.

Wrap Up: There is a great number of possible means for implementing something like this, and when/if they eventually come out with Cantha, I would love to see something like this for a Ninja specialization, and I sure as hell don't mind giving up an elite slot to get it. (Personally, I detest thief elites, Thieves' Guild is by far the best and I get /really/ sick of being forced to slot it in almost every build.)

Actually i think Deadeye should be the class with easy access to long stealth while not doing anything.For that i would change this so the spec has to scarifice something instead being a power creep over core.When the deadeye gain stealth instead gain Camouflage . All camouflage durations are doubledAlso all the cantrip and deadeye traits have increased adjusted camouflage durations.

With that single change it will solve permantely the issue with permanet invisible deadeyes while keeping the idea of "static glass cannon". As long as the DE is not moving or casting skills it sould be able to stay in stealth. Deaths retreat should have increased inititative cost as well, as "losing mobility" filosophy it should not have easy access to reposition tools from the DE spec. It already has core for that.

Shadow meld also should be reworked. No skill should be able to remove revealed as that is simply a power creep and make all the reveleaded skills completely useless.