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ROMANG.1903
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Reducing the number of illusions from 3 to 2 might just fix mesmer...
ROMANG.1903
Member ✭✭✭
in Mesmer
Higher skillcap, reducing the possibility of overstacking clones (because let's be honnest, the real limit is actually 6 with that several seconds delay). I don't know, I just feel like a player should use their skill to win something, instead of just overloading the ennemy's screen with useless information and blending in with the soup.
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OK but first I think reducing the number of attunements from 4 to 2 might just fix Elementalists.
Higher skillcap, reducing the possibility of overstacking weaponskills (because let's be honnest, its really just having double the amount of weapon skills as everybody else). I don't know, I just feel like a player should use their skill to win something, instead of just overloading the ennemy's screen with useless information and blending in with the soup.
this would lower the skill cap, considering you should then shatter before ANY new clone production - not that calculating clone production is hard though
btw there is no limit on stacking clones (9 is not uncommon, chrono before nerf had 10+)
higher your own skillcap by learning to find the real player
Given that people have been consistently begging for Chrono to go from 3 to 2 while regaining IP, there are probably limitations. I don't see why core/mirage would need it, they don't have CS or alacrity.
Ok but first reducing numbers of pages on firebrand by half might just fix fb, cuz let's be honest too many pages atm. Cutting it by half.will make the fb think about using them more efficiently.
But honestly, I think reducing the number of weapons a ranger can use to 1 would help increase their skill cap. They've got the pet using skills too, they don't really need a weapon swap to overload the enemy's screen with useless information.
Ohey, I've got a signature
Then the damage of the third clone is redistributed across a 2 clone plus illusionary persona setup (for Mesmer and Mirage, blimey is Chrono awful right now) and thus it's easier for the Mesmer/Mirage/Chrono to land damage as there's one less clone to have to generate/worry about being popped by stray AoE. This would...increase the skill cap...somehow...I dunno...carrots!
Perhaps remove all clones and turn Mind Wrack into a skill that allows the Mesmer to shoot a laserbeam out of its mouth that can cut enemy players in half.
Why stop at 2, why not just 1, then we can turn this integer value into a boolean.
Seriously, it could be a viable solution, but I just do not see it work without some massive rework.
But then I have seen a number of suggestions here that would also work with a similar level of rework.
Can we have the laserbeam out of the mesmer's eyes please? I think that would be more fitting. But then we might have to reduce the laserbeams to one eye only xD
The issue is not the number of clones you can hold but the number of clones you can generate.
You can't just repeat the post for others classes mechanics and act like you've made a point. The elementalist is balanced. The ranger is balanced. Firebrand is balanced. Mesmer might be balanced to players who can somehow spot the right one (strangely enough there's never a real tip for that from the chrono players who say it's easy), but that's the deal: most players can't, and that's saying something when there are so many complaints about the visual soup every Mesmer puts us in before making their one shot combo one second later.
I've tried to counter that too, duh. The only tip I got for that was to "spot the sword". The small, foggy, transparent, very quick sword that travels to me before the combo hits. To spot that thing in between 4 character models throwing their purple auto attacks, plus any other skill the Mesmer might have used, is a very poor idea of a "balanced" counter. Because here's the other thing: Every Mesmer animation is the same. You never know what they do. If their hard-hitting skills had some obvious animations like others classes, that might do the trick. But it's simply not the case.
For chrono I actually I think it would be the better option.
But mirage should get another downside.
Overall IH should need adjustments for competitive modes a bit but it's mainly a noob filter. Anyone that isn't able to go to the options menu and toggle thicc health bars and seed out the real mesmer needs to learn that.
I agree about the "visual soup". I just disagree with the one shot combo.
The combo itself is not a problem IMO, the real issue is that they can get away with it even if they miss the combo, because they kitten your screen, port away, evade 10 times, stealth/invul/etc.
Also, i find Condi Mirage 10x more problematic than any other mesmer spec bcuz they actually maintain those 387 illusions while hitting with confusion and torment so you cant cast skills nor move
sounds fun
https://i.imgflip.com/1hfmx7.jpg
Ohey, I've got a signature
I dont think people care to explain how to counter mesmer at this point, they just lube themselfs for another round of nerfs.
truth be told, in a perfect world, where you know every single mesmer ability by hearth, you would never ever, not once be confused by illusion, since meta RN doesnt run stealth, or targetbreake.
but we dont live in a perfect world, people dont even try to "know" how to spot the real mesmer.
this is a good example
warrior in question calls cmirage " cancer "
he legit afked for 10s near the real one did nothing, facetanked several abilities and got away with it, becouse warrior is overtuned,
if he actually knew what he was doing, it would take him 0,1s to spot the real one.
1 In that 10s mesmer used staff 2, that teleports him back and leaves clone -> gives away the real mesmer.
2 then he followed up by torch 5 -> creates explosion around the mesmer -> gives away the real mesmer
3 ran in an angle to warrior -> gives away its real mesmer
4 used entire scepter 3 channel -> this one gives away the real one too, and im amazed that warrior was so bad that he didnt even notice it.
And then he goes ahead and says -> "good mesmer would be able to easily kill me here" -> all that time he facetanked for 10s, took no damage, used rampage and just randomly used stomp when mesmer was stealthed, that 1 hit, on stealthed mesmer did more dmg then entire 10s of combat on afking warrior.
TLDR. People dont try to learn or improve, and if they meet obstacle that needs some focus and info to succeed, they colapse and are unable to find solutions.
and for you to learn finding the real mesmer.
make lvl 1 mesmer, go to mettablate, grab "meta" build. use EVERY ability, you have and look at animations, and where clones/phantasms are summoned compared to you.
after 1hour you will be able to stop the real one reasonably fast.
Yeah you can find the one mesmer, it's not the issue. Still you have to cross or get around all the clones, risk some more IH or shatter skills... then to cc him or burst him before he stealths away with so much ease. It has a lot of teleports / shadowstep, blocks, invu, evades, stealth, and obviously clones spam. The #2 staff that can teleport even if you're stunned is already a complete joke, it shouldn't be.
If it's a l2p issue to fight Mirages, have mirages already tried to learn to play others classes to keep argue theuy're balanced ?
I did, thats how I got to platinum, was hardstack gold for months on my mesmer, made a warrior mashed random buttons and ended up in plat, then decided to never touch this broken heap of stats ever again.
sorry to say that but the mesmer on the video was running 1 stealth.
1 stealth every 30s, assuming spammed of cooldown
1 staff tp, every 8s, assuming spammed of cd ( impossible to do since weapon swap )
1 jaunt 450 tp every 30s.
1 blink 1200 tp every 30s.
warrior in the video could run up to the mesmer, facetank all damage for 30s. hit him 3 times and kill him.
but instead he afked 10s in one go then another 5s, wasted several important cooldowns. and know what ?
he won that, becouse he denied decap. he played it AS BAD AS POSSBLE, I dont see a way for him to play it any worse, and yet he takes no damage keeps node capped. He was only punished becouse holo arrived ( power damage killed him ).
Yep agree with u if u face a "common" mirage simply because he move while ur front of him (that's what i do, hit the runing clone)
A good mirage, would'nt move, will stay a little behind the right of his clone (your left, more than 70% of world population are right handed, statistically, u'll hit at right or middle first, never left), he will stealth when you come near him and teleport behind something in case of .... you will take at least 7-8 secs to know who's the real one) But as i says only a good mirage can do it
Troll since 1988.
no, literarly no. you assume that you dont know what is a real one to begin with, you should never ever lose track of real one.
only exeptions are -> stealth, axe 3, and that 35s evade ability whatever its called.
and mesmer that stands still and uses autattack only deals no damage, even then you can kite behind wall, clones will walk up to you while real one wont.
real one also has boons/conditions on him, or is missing health.
lol
My ears, how are you! | Hammer Mesmer - elite spec concept.
its like, I cant find the real mesmer. didnt bother learning how to do that. so mesmer needs to be nerfed.
I could see there being a tradeoff trait, that gives strong bonus, but reduces max clone by 1. Like 1 gm in every tree would be much stronger but remove 1 clone.
could be fun.
How u gonna never lose the track of the real one, if he stealth ? if he port ?
And do not misunderstand me, i've never say to reduce clones, i just talk about focus the real mesmer....don't mix.
i play staff / scepter + torch with signet of midnight + Blink (duelling, illusions and mirage), not meta but even mirages have a headach to find me.
Troll since 1988.
EDIT : i've answer u but i figurethat's not even worth it.
Troll since 1988.
becouse teleporting doesnt hide the real mesmer? if he stealth you know he is invisible and thus everything that you see is a clone, when he appears you know its the real one, becouse clones dont stealth. simple
if my enemy blinks, i know its the real one, clones dont blink or jaunt? right ?
ok, i'll go with a normal fight so u can undestand my point of view :
Starting a fight with staff 3 and 2 (clones generation + evade), go scepter + torch then torch 4 (3 sec stealth), blink teleport behind the enemy scepter 3 then dodge + A (ambush) and signet of midnight.... just torch 4 + signet of midnight = 5 sec stealth......
And as i say again, not everyone can handle it and i don't call for a nerf just calm down, mirage is squichy and he need his clones and evade(dodge) to survive.
Troll since 1988.
If you dodge while in stealth the one that appears is obviously not the real one
Mirage can easily spew out 3+ clones while in stealth, illusionist is just a tactic that non mesmers find gross
depends on the stealth, torch stealth creates explosion, so if you use only this stealth you know its the real one, as in the video provided.
nonmesmers find this gross, I find warrior facetanking for 10-15s while taking no damage disgusting, I find him landing random aoe on stealth oponent that chunks for 1/4 hp disgusting, I find him throwing a rock for 11,1k dmg disgusting.
Difference of opinions.
then I will say what happens now, oponent uses 1 cleansing ability, now you used 6-7 abilities and 2 dodges, warrior will lose 20% hp, cleanse everything.
now you look at angry warrior. you have no dodges, you hae no stealth, you have no cc removing abilities. warrior has 80% hp, and every single ability ready.
you have 2x jaunt, 1x disort, scepter 2 to survive warriors onslought with bullcharge, shield charge, dagger jumps, sword throws, arcing slices and many others, then he can signet->rampage, and rock->dash->stomp->rock, preety much 4x must dodge abilities, too bad you used them all to do 20% dmg
EDIT, you dont win by running into people as mirage, you have to let them run into you. if you use blink just to land destealth on 4 then you already lost.
midnight is overrated, if you use phantasms before stealthing, they will remove your stealth, stealth in general is overrated, thats why its not run all that often, and meta mirage has 0 stealth, why take something that sometimes works? warrior,holo,revenant and core necro? reveal. thats why people run pistol instead. it works. always.
It's very rare for me to respond so bluntly, but 7-8s is an eternity.
When fighting an opponent mesmer it takes at most 1-2s to not only find but also retarget, either through next/previous or cursor select.
Learn which skills actually break target - most of the time there will be 1-3 skills including things like Prestige, Axe3, Illusionary Ambush, Signet of Midnight. Learn the audio/visual cues. Learn the combos and when they are likely to be used. Be ready to give huge pressure upon one or more of these cooldowns being burnt.
Phase retreat does not break target. Blink does not break target. Dodge does not break target. Jaunt does not break target.
For my own build, when I'm in staff I have zero target breaks or stealth.
You beat mesmer by knowing how they play - and timing huge burst after they burn key retarget/invuln/etc. In my experience is much easier to fight against mesmer than a number of other specs, as most mesmer builds cannot sustain once you land a few bursts.
The only legit time I have been able to play proper hide and seek with (fairly bad) groups in wvw was before Illusionary Ambush got nerfed and was 20s cooldown - with staff it occassionally allowed 3+s standing still.
It is very much a learn to play issue if it takes 7 or more seconds to find and retarget.
Edit - I saw your other responses and need to add that stealth duration/uptime is not the same as the time to retarget once a mesmer is visible. The latter should be 1-2s as said above. Sure, high stealth uptime builds can run and hide forever - like deadeye or similar cheese stealth builds. But in my experience they are not much threat if they stay to fight, which involves breaking stealth to do damage.
If stealth is an issue (separate issue from retargeting) - I have in the past advocated for stealth rework. In any case it is posssible PU should be changed to reduce stealth duration stacking and uptime.
My ears, how are you! | Hammer Mesmer - elite spec concept.
PS : a personal remark, why runing off meta ? coz people expect you to play meta, it surprises them and builds off meta who work,there's a ton
and playing meta again and again like 80% of people is just....boring.
Troll since 1988.
The mirage in the video uses inferior build. With chaos you can just chain 7,5 secs of stealth while spamming all your clones skills and none of them will reveal you, so his comment of 7-8 sec finding the real one is not far off.
I mean the war vid is insane 4k auto attacks 11k boulder but this topic is about clone spam
The thing is this is a problem with stealth itself, not a problem with clones and finding a target that is visible.
Ideally skills could be individually changed to disallow stacking (so there isn't a blanket nerf that would have a huge negative impact on thief).
No mesmer stealth should be able to stack, and PU should not increase stealth duration (instead it could be changed to also provide boons when invuln or something).
Alternatively doing any action while stealthed should break the stealth - eg dodging, casting a phantasm, etc.
Maybe some of those are overkill, but I strongly believe in this instance stealth is what should be looked at. I believe detarget should be pushed as a central theme to mesmer instead of stealth as it is both more easily counterable (player is still visible) and more thematic with clones.
My ears, how are you! | Hammer Mesmer - elite spec concept.
tell me what clone spells you can spam that wont reveal you? im curious, becouse phatasms WILL reveal you, the only thing you can do is staff 2 and dodge.
and if you use torch then gl, becouse you dont have pistol for damage or CC.
Im fine with that tbh, some stealth could stay, like midnight signet is well designed.
mass invis is stupid, torch 4 could be reworked tbh.
they would have to fix ranger pets, they ignore retarget -> kitten bambi pet and 15k dmg homing teleporting gliching head toss.
Torch 5 only reveals you if hit with the initial aoe. Staff 3 doesnt reveal you.
Phantasms dont reveal you, none at all - your claim is false.
Torch vs pistol is situational - like you said if you even need the dmg or cc vs stealth
Alright ehre is the thing, when you are stealth, and your attack is in the air already, it WILL reveal you.
if you have chaos storm, its damage WILL reveal you.
if you use healing skil and summons lesser storm, it WILL reveal you.
when you cast phantasm, if you have autoattack set up, it will automaticcally attack, and it WILL reveal you.
and you HAVE to get autoattack set up becouse the game is bugged and doesnt respect that dodge/block skills should override all other skills when used. too bad right?
No you dont need to have autoattack on (or autoattack at all) and you dont need to stealth while chaos storm is up or cast chaos storm while stealthed
Revealing yourself is on you and is 100% avoidable
so, when your auto si mid air you cant stealth, when you fight holo you cant stealth, when chaos storm is on the ground you cant stealth, when you are tethered you cant stealth, when rev is close you cant stealth.
using stealth just to use staff 3 and torch 5 is a waste of several traits and powers.
just tried it, all it did was help rez/stomp, getting extra clones dont matter, getting them froms tealth dont matter.
Reducing the number of nerfs being applied all the kitten time and just buffing everything else might just make people complain about the game less and spend more time actually playing it.
Game was released 7 years ago. Some people still have trouble realizing the most painfully obvious mechanic.
1 - Clones either don't move, if ranged, or run in a pattern if melee.
2 - Clones only use autoattack
3 - Clones don't have the same boons
4 - Clones don't have food effect (if wvw)
5 - Clones don't have trait effects icon.
6 - Clones don't have signets equipped
7 - Clones don't stealth and don't teleport.
8 - Clones don't have the same hp.
The degenerate
When suggestions are super terrible people parody that post. Hence why people are taking your post and applying it to other classes.
In parody.
Tingle my stingleberry
Also between every clone aa, there's a bit of a down time where they don't do anything
Clones also have a very significant pause between autoattacks normal memsers won't have.
Edit Beaten by @Gryxis.6950
Best Dressed Memser NA.
also clones use ambush instantly when able, if 3 clones ambush instantly and 1 is off.... you know who the real one is.
you can also kite behind terrain, clones will follow.
Funnily enough when the game was released mesmers complained that clones were trash that fooled no one and that needed to get some more randomized actions to look like the real mesmer.
ANerf dodged a bullet, can't imagine the cries if they did improved clones.
The degenerate
You lot all realise most mesmer builds can kill single targets near instantly right? The reaction time of any person trying to find the real one AND being able to deliver all that damage to kill it is impossible between all of the stealth and dodges and mirage cloaks that cause obscenely long invulns and evades. You also have to specifically build to purge all of the conditions in time before it takes chunks out of you. The only ones that can survive it are the tankier ones, such as scrappers, firebrands, holosmiths and warriors. No other profession has a chance. The problem was never finding the real one, it was always never having the chance to find the real one. You make better thieves than thieves do.
And then you get oneshoted by thief.
so what you are telling me is that you get 1shot by invisible power condi mirage?
Nerf Mesmer threads are cute in 2019.
In seriousness, it sounds like a major rework is on the horizon, for better or worse, so "how to 'fix' mesmer" suggestions may not be relevant in the near future.
at this point im playing berserker shatter PU stealth, with pistol.
+1 on people with 3clone stun shatter on f3 and pistol shot.
if im not allowed to have fun then kitten all, nobody gonna have fun XD
Not literally one shot no, but I'll be either having a fight already or just observing a point to keep it locked down and suddenly bam, Mirage out of thin air and I'm suddenly confused, tormented, burnt, and bled. Using skills to clean the condis hurts you because of confusion (and that can be a hefty 2k chunk on top of the 1.5-2k chunk from the other condis), moving will kill you further (except using up precious dodges) AND you're being shot at by each clone. On top of that you can't fight back, because even if you find the real mesmer they're either evading, stealthing up again or straight up invulnerable. A good mirage can easily deliver a 10k dump of damage as soon as they appear via condis and direct hits combined, AND daze you for a good 3-4 seconds.
I've specifically bulked up both my Ele and my Deadeye (2.4k armor on the ele with 17k HP, 13k HP on the deadeye with 2.2k armor off the top of my head) and they still go down like they weren't even there. Again, you need to be a bunker build to survive an ambush like that regularly and long enough that you can even attempt to retaliate.
Cute. I wish. Ask any deadeye how much trouble they have hitting mirages. They're essentially a non-target. Melee professions in general can't do it unless they're guardians or warriors with a lot of AoE.
To be clear this is not a problem with mesmers or chronomancers. This is a problem specifically with Mirage.