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Necromancer needs an overhaul please

Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

Necro needs to fit better into this fast-paced combat system, where positioning and movement skills are also present on many of the other professions. These are the “gists” of what I’m thinking...

Video for inspiration...

-Scourge- Remake this spec into a positioning/porting spec that focuses on condi damage and ally support. Yet again, some ideas in this thread... https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/58958/eye-on-necromancer-for-august-2019

Thank you for reading!

Comments

  • Sakorath.8910Sakorath.8910 Member ✭✭
    edited October 5, 2019

    Necro needs to be made more valuable in Endgame PVE, for sure. The changes to Scourge make it clunky.

    I am hoping the changes to Scourge are the first steps toward an overhaul. A sad change for PVE and PVP but hopefully it allows them to make Scourge something other than a better version of core Necro. Reaper is great in open world and in a pretty okay spot for PVP, but Holosmith is simply better in PVP and while Holo can team fight, 1v1 and side node with great success Reaper will not have a role.

    The core weapons need to be revised, too (outside of staff). They are boring and the changes made to warhorn and focus didn't do much to improve this

  • @Sakorath.8910 said:

    The core weapons need to be revised, too (outside of staff).

    Staff is easily the worst PvE weapon in the game. I don't care if it's good or even OP in WvW or sPvP, GW2 is 95% a PvE game and no weapon should be allowed to be as bad as staff is in PvE

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 10, 2019

    Necro is fine.
    It already had an overhaul to core and reaper shroud and now to shades to hit even more targets .

    Necro is mandatory for raids.

    I don’t understand the whining. Learn to play with your class.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @anduriell.6280 said:
    Necro is fine.
    It already had an overhaul to core and reaper shroud and now to shades to hit even more targets .

    Necro is mandatory for raids.

    I don’t understand the whining. Learn to play with your class.

    That might be because you call WvW zergs, "raids".

    The issue of the necromancer is that it is imbalanced, overperforming in it's niche and performing poorly outside of it. It didn't have any overhaul to core, reaper or scourge, Anet just added more issues than necessary to an already flawed design. Transforming shroud to be a 10 seconds burst with a 10 second CD in order to catch up to other profession's DPS was a stupid idea not an "overhaul". Desperatly clinging onto the area denial of the shades and nerfing the quality of life of the players wasn't an "overhaul" either.

    The necromancer need to have balanced performance in all area of the game, it doesn't need to be mandatory in WvW zergs. And in any way it always was part of this niche meta, it didn't needed to be even more proficient in it thanks to the scourge.

    The necromancer need ANet to:

    • First, rethink barrier, making it so that you can't stack them (because this is the root of the barrier issue in WvW and 1 of the reasons the scourge is overwhelmingly mandatory there)
    • Second, give up on the shades as an area denial tool (The utilities and weapons already offer more than enough of that).
    • Third, make a choice, the necromancer was supposed to rely more on it's utility skills to deal damage than it's weapon and special mechanism. Either they focus on that point and make utilities truly reliable dps wise or they rethink the utilities and their role for the necromancer while puting damage on the weapons but they shouldn't try to keep having every skills do everything.

    The necromancer need an overall to it's design not a bunch of mindless changes that strengthen it's flaws.

  • gen.6807gen.6807 Member ✭✭

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    Video for inspiration...

    I really hope no one from design team will get the idea to change reaper into that. Just play Mirage or DD instead of Reaper, if that's what you want.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Reaper is supposed to cancel high mobility with Freeze and Weakness.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @gen.6807 said:
    I really hope no one from design team will get the idea to change reaper into that. Just play Mirage or DD instead of Reaper, if that's what you want.

    Funny how I told him pretty much the same thing in another thread where he linked that vid :D

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Nah, I disagree. If you want to be a mesmer or thief, then play mesmer or thief instead of trying to force every skill into one profession. You'd be better off telling me why you don't want to just play those classes instead of deflecting with "other mmorpgs" and irrelevant quotes.

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    Reaper is supposed to cancel high mobility with Freeze and Weakness.

    And now there is a build with additionaly extreme tankiness whith high shroud generation Which i dont complain and actually i find fun to play against as it is a fair changelling encounter.

    Necro is meta in raids as heal scourge for pugs, almost mandatory.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 6, 2019

    @anduriell.6280 said:
    Necro is fine.
    It already had an overhaul to core and reaper shroud and now to shades to hit even more targets .

    These weren't overhauls. Just buffs, mostly for cooldowns, to very outdated skills. These buffs should have happens 2 years ago for reaper (when POF was introduced) and 4 years ago for core (when hot was introduced)
    The effects were just way to little for the big cooldowns they had.

    Necro is mandatory for raids.

    If you think necro is Mandatory for raids, I guess the good and best groups are all wrong to not bring necros with Them.

    god I hope your device doesn't get wet from the sarcasm this sentence is dripping

    And if you think it's mandatory for pugs, I feel bad for you, that you always get such bad players to play with.

    I don’t understand the whining. Learn to play with your class.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    Reaper is supposed to cancel high mobility with Freeze and Weakness.

    Does it do that?
    Hint 1: do most classes have passive condi removal?
    Hint 2: can you reliably hit something that is very fast, with very slow attacks?
    Hint 3: do these conditions reduce leap, dodge or teleport distance?

    Hint 4: if you answered 1 or more of these questions with "no" then why doesn't it do, what it's supposed to do? Why didn't this addressed long time ago?

  • Tukaram.8256Tukaram.8256 Member ✭✭✭

    My necro is by far my favorite avatar to play. I throw the minions out and lay marks all over the place. My minions rarely die, and I die less than they do. In any group event I easily get looting rights on numerous critters. While my minions fight, I can run around and rez people that fell down. He is also the only character I have that can solo HoT, and has breezed through PoF. Awesome character.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tukaram.8256 said:
    My necro is by far my favorite avatar to play. I throw the minions out and lay marks all over the place. My minions rarely die, and I die less than they do. In any group event I easily get looting rights on numerous critters. While my minions fight, I can run around and rez people that fell down. He is also the only character I have that can solo HoT, and has breezed through PoF. Awesome character.

    Yeah. Fine. Do it .

    Noone cares about open world content. You can do it with basically any build on any class.

    Most People asking for the rework of necro would let them still have their minions after the rework. So people that have no hands or people that don't want to play the game, they want the game to play itself, can still do so.

    In my opinion. Minions should be reworked to get a more active playstyle. If you want a game, where you basically do nothing, go do mobile gaming. There's a lot of MMOs that let you just klick on the quest, and you dont even have to do the fighting. That's basically playing minionmancer.
    If you don't want to play, why do you play?

    But I would also be fine, if just the other parts would be reworked, to be on par with the other classes. Or bring all other classes down to necro level

  • SpellOfIniquity.1780SpellOfIniquity.1780 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 6, 2019

    @anduriell.6280 said:
    Necro is fine.
    It already had an overhaul to core and reaper shroud and now to shades to hit even more targets .

    Necro is mandatory for raids.

    I don’t understand the whining. Learn to play with your class.

    I'd be fine with it getting some changes to give it a boost in PvE, but in WvW and PvP it is perfectly fine. I don't know enough about PvE to say what it would need in that regard, but in other modes it doesn't need anything.

    I'd honestly be upset if it got serious buffs or any major reworks. I love Necro how it is and I do not want it to be another braindead faceroll class that rewards sloppy play because of passives and broken mechanics. Yes, Necro is a punishing class, but it isn't weak. It's just not one that you can be careless with like a number of other classes.

    [YWY] Weeping Valley //
    My Youtube: Coconut Racecar
    Necromancer | Maguuma | Diamond Legend

  • Tukaram.8256Tukaram.8256 Member ✭✭✭

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Tukaram.8256 said:
    My necro is by far my favorite avatar to play. I throw the minions out and lay marks all over the place. My minions rarely die, and I die less than they do. In any group event I easily get looting rights on numerous critters. While my minions fight, I can run around and rez people that fell down. He is also the only character I have that can solo HoT, and has breezed through PoF. Awesome character.

    Yeah. Fine. Do it .

    Noone cares about open world content. You can do it with basically any build on any class.

    Most People asking for the rework of necro would let them still have their minions after the rework. So people that have no hands or people that don't want to play the game, they want the game to play itself, can still do so.

    In my opinion. Minions should be reworked to get a more active playstyle. If you want a game, where you basically do nothing, go do mobile gaming. There's a lot of MMOs that let you just klick on the quest, and you dont even have to do the fighting. That's basically playing minionmancer.
    If you don't want to play, why do you play?

    But I would also be fine, if just the other parts would be reworked, to be on par with the other classes. Or bring all other classes down to necro level

    I love when people get uppity and act like their playstyle is better than others ha ha... what a maroon... :)

  • gen.6807gen.6807 Member ✭✭

    I actually agree with OP that Necro needs overhaul, but I just don't agree with direction he suggests. Instead of fast paced combat I would opt for more cc built in his abilities. Tbh. after changes to scourge I stopped playing Necro completely. It's just that Scourge is clunky with shades management (and I don't really like looking at those yellow faces) and giving up shades for personal aoe is well, silly (if I chose scourge, I wanted to play in mid-range with aoe). Reaper is really boring on the other hand, but visually pleasing, dps is fine too. But the idea of Gravedigger is terrible. I mean, it'd fine if it recharged other skills or sthing, but spamming 2 after 50% is just sad gameplay. Also shroud is boring as most of the time you sit on 1. Traits actually encourage you to use auto attack (which without quickness is meh). Minions are lazy gameplay and as OP mentioned - using most of them is like playing "idle-games" (also, I really dislike signets for encouraging this - not in all cases, but nevertheless I'd be glad if they got rid of signets completely). I would make exception for bone minions, which are fine if you use them for LF generation (if they had leap finisher on explode command, they'd be really sweet).
    So, the problem I have with necro is that it's really monotonous to play. I main chrono, so maybe I'm biased in favour of using more skills in shorter amount of time, but really liked support offered by Scourge and spend almost 500h on it. Now I plan to delete it, to make space for something worthwhile. But making dark-themed mirage of necro is not the way imho.

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 6, 2019

    Gw2 has “fast-paced action combat!” and “Joy of movement!”, and the quick timing and speedy second to second reaction e-sports gameplay is super amazing! It’s totally not like that WoW game! But here we have a WoWish combat Necro where it’s supposed to be exciting to have a ton of slow casting skills and the least amount of “joy of movement”, but that’s all ok because we have a lot of health! Fun! Yeah! Lol

  • ZeftheWicked.3076ZeftheWicked.3076 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    • Third, make a choice, the necromancer was supposed to rely more on it's utility skills to deal damage than it's weapon and special mechanism. Either they focus on that point and make utilities truly reliable dps wise or they rethink the utilities and their role for the necromancer while puting damage on the weapons but they shouldn't try to keep having every skills do everything.

    Oh hell no. Necro's utilities are the core of his survival in competitve. If you force damage into utilities you'll either have necros that die 5s into the fight, or necros that can sustain but little else because their damage is in utilities and they're using defensive ones (as they should) to stay alive.

    On a side note, I do approve and am very pleased with a-net placing a lot of necro's sustain in traitlines/core specs. This is a boon that does not arm twist me into specific weapon choices like shield for warriors just becuase i want to be alive (which on necro is #1 concern in competitive).

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 6, 2019

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @anduriell.6280 said:
    Necro is fine.
    It already had an overhaul to core and reaper shroud and now to shades to hit even more targets .

    Necro is mandatory for raids.

    I don’t understand the whining. Learn to play with your class.

    That might be because you call WvW zergs, "raids".

    The issue of the necromancer is that it is imbalanced, overperforming in it's niche and performing poorly outside of it. It didn't have any overhaul to core, reaper or scourge, Anet just added more issues than necessary to an already flawed design. Transforming shroud to be a 10 seconds burst with a 10 second CD in order to catch up to other profession's DPS was a stupid idea not an "overhaul". Desperatly clinging onto the area denial of the shades and nerfing the quality of life of the players wasn't an "overhaul" either.

    The necromancer need to have balanced performance in all area of the game, it doesn't need to be mandatory in WvW zergs. And in any way it always was part of this niche meta, it didn't needed to be even more proficient in it thanks to the scourge.

    The necromancer need ANet to:

    • First, rethink barrier, making it so that you can't stack them (because this is the root of the barrier issue in WvW and 1 of the reasons the scourge is overwhelmingly mandatory there)

    I partly agree here but i dont think thats the only issue wvw has other issues that are not just scourge barrier. Boons are out of control and anet made scourge to be the balance tool against the new boon heavy elite specs lets start there before we start anywhere else. There was no reason that every singlet utility including the heal needed to have boon corrupt that alone tells you something is flawed with how they considered their outlook on the necromancer to be going forward.

    • Second, give up on the shades as an area denial tool (The utilities and weapons already offer more than enough of that).

    I support this 100%

    • Third, make a choice, the necromancer was supposed to rely more on it's utility skills to deal damage than it's weapon and special mechanism. Either they focus on that point and make utilities truly reliable dps wise or they rethink the utilities and their role for the necromancer while puting damage on the weapons but they shouldn't try to keep having every skills do everything.

    I personally think its silly not to use your special mechanism when ever other profession for the most part uses theirs as a direct connection to their dps and not just on utilities I cant say i support the idea of forcing necro to depend on utilities. I think like most other professions using the special mechanism is still defiantly the way to go.

    That said fixing oudated weapons and utility would have been good and maybe added more dependable defenses and giving up on the idea that necro must be slow and be a punching bag would have done alot for the class overall. Instead they kept necro on the idea of that it must use conditional defense which changes in effectiveness from balance to balance as people take more or less condi clear/ resistance to condis / traits that reduce ore remove movement inhibiting conditions etc.

    Conditional defense is not very viable in 2019. That idea went down hill the moment the choice was made to have things like chill and cripple no longer effect movement skills and has only picked up speed over time.
    Weakness is RNG might work great 50% of the time and 50% of the time you take full damage anyways (fix this to not be so rng if you really want conditional defense to work.)

    The necromancer need an overall to it's design not a bunch of mindless changes that strengthen it's flaws.

    Its not a total overhaul thats needed for core and reaper only scourge

    Core and reaper mostly need proper weapon updates and changes to condition if they want conditional defense to be a thing

    • main hand dagger
    • staff
    • core shroud kit
    • various core traits
    • Slightly increase fear sources and update it to drop target and make players unable to target anyone for its applied duration.
    • Remove the RNG on weakness make it a static thing and reduce applications and durations
    • Make cripple and chill effective again against classes who can just jump at you over and over
    • for the love of all that is necrotic and ghostly update spectral armor its almost like it was forgotten with the removal of the spectral mastery (last gasp) update.
    • rework scourge entirely
  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nimon.7840 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    Reaper is supposed to cancel high mobility with Freeze and Weakness.

    Note weakness is not a part of reapers main design and kit thats part of core necro more than reaper.

    Does it do that?
    Hint 1: do most classes have passive condi removal?
    Hint 2: can you reliably hit something that is very fast, with very slow attacks?
    Hint 3: do these conditions reduce leap, dodge or teleport distance?

    Hint 4: if you answered 1 or more of these questions with "no" then why doesn't it do, what it's supposed to do? Why didn't this addressed long time ago?

    Reaper at its base will not do this chill durations are too low now (with the cold shoulder trait increasing them) after several nerfs that came from early beta when chill was actually a threat in pvp and on top of that dealt just enough damage to make condi reaper ramp nicely and provided one of the best thematic traits i had ever seen in the game (dont think they have added anything yet that wow'ed me like the original deathly chill.)

    That said the only way to make chill stick to people now is to over invest in it through chilling darkness, and runes that provide additional chill duration. If you do this chill does hinder mobility on several classes but not all of them. However doing this means a loss in damage, sustain, life force generation, and possibly boons (might)

    hitting some one with reaper 5 and assuming they stand in the aoe for its full duration with base reaper ends up being like 5-6 seconds of chill in total less if they have traits that reduce condition duration or hindering mobility conditions. Ideally chill is not effective unless its used on another necro or an ele everything else can kind of ignore if it wants too.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    • First, rethink barrier, making it so that you can't stack them (because this is the root of the barrier issue in WvW and 1 of the reasons the scourge is overwhelmingly mandatory there)

    I partly agree here but i dont think thats the only issue wvw has other issues that are not just scourge barrier. Boons are out of control and anet made scourge to be the balance tool against the new boon heavy elite specs lets start there before we start anywhere else. There was no reason that every singlet utility including the heal needed to have boon corrupt that alone tells you something is flawed with how they considered their outlook on the necromancer to be going forward.

    True, but I was specifically talking about barrier, the boon corruption is a whole issue on it's own.

    • Third, make a choice, the necromancer was supposed to rely more on it's utility skills to deal damage than it's weapon and special mechanism. Either they focus on that point and make utilities truly reliable dps wise or they rethink the utilities and their role for the necromancer while puting damage on the weapons but they shouldn't try to keep having every skills do everything.

    I personally think its silly not to use your special mechanism when ever other profession for the most part uses theirs as a direct connection to their dps and not just on utilities I cant say i support the idea of forcing necro to depend on utilities. I think like most other professions using the special mechanism is still defiantly the way to go.

    The issue is that whereas the other professions have defense into both their weapon and utility, the necromancer don't. You can't just say that it would be strange for the necromancer to not rely on it's special mechanism to deal damage because all other profession does when at the same time all other profession rely on utility and weapon skill for their defense when the necromancer don't.

    From the very beginning the necromancer's design put it in the "strange" folder. A bit stranger won't hurt him much.

    That said fixing oudated weapons and utility would have been good and maybe added more dependable defenses and giving up on the idea that necro must be slow and be a punching bag would have done alot for the class overall. Instead they kept necro on the idea of that it must use conditional defense which changes in effectiveness from balance to balance as people take more or less condi clear/ resistance to condis / traits that reduce ore remove movement inhibiting conditions etc.

    I agree and at the same time I don't agree. The reason I don't agree is that ANet isn't especially bright when it come to "fixing" weapon. They just tend to add more and more things on top of what's already there. Before the weapon and utility they really need to fix the design that the necromancer need to follow. They need to make choices that allow us to make choices when we build. The necromancer in it's state don't allow that, almost all skills just try to do everything (from dealing damage to heal and debuff).

    Conditional defense is not very viable in 2019. That idea went down hill the moment the choice was made to have things like chill and cripple no longer effect movement skills and has only picked up speed over time.
    Weakness is RNG might work great 50% of the time and 50% of the time you take full damage anyways (fix this to not be so rng if you really want conditional defense to work.)

    Well, conditions are overnerfed when you depend on them and overtuned when you don't. It certainly would be good to see them being more reliable but I'm pretty sure that this wouldn't be well received by professions that don't rely on them by design.

    Yes, we are, again, looking at the fact that the necromancer's design philosophy is flawed and way to different from other profession's.

    The necromancer need an overall to it's design not a bunch of mindless changes that strengthen it's flaws.

    Its not a total overhaul thats needed for core and reaper only scourge

    Here I disagree as well, scourge is exceptionally easy to fix.

    • You remove the manifest sand shades proc from the skills F2-5.
    • Replace torment on desert shroud tics by 1s of weakness and give it a power damage coefficient of 0.02 instead of what it is right now.

    Voila! The scourge's mechanism is fixed. They can even revert the delay thingy, CD splits and most of the core traits splits. The damage on the shade skills aren't "needed". If there is a lack of damage it come from the weapons and utility skills (which something that's known since far before the scourge's release).

    Core and reaper mostly need proper weapon updates and changes to condition if they want conditional defense to be a thing

    • main hand dagger
    • staff

    I disagree, staff is fine as is. The AA sure ould welcome an increase of it's attack speed, but overall, staff is fine.

    • core shroud kit

    It did have it's update. Again, tweeking the AA to make it more responsive is the only thing that I find would be welcome.

    • various core traits

    Well, yes. But to be honest, I doubt everybody would agree on the traits that need it.

    • Slightly increase fear sources and update it to drop target and make players unable to target anyone for its applied duration.

    I disagree. More fear sources isn't a good thing, as for dropping the target, it would end up making fear to strong.

    • Remove the RNG on weakness make it a static thing and reduce applications and durations

    or just make it 25% damage decrease.

    • Make cripple and chill effective again against classes who can just jump at you over and over

    Well, make it so that it doesn't affect teleport but force a 1s additionnal cast time on other movement skills.

    • for the love of all that is necrotic and ghostly update spectral armor its almost like it was forgotten with the removal of the spectral mastery (last gasp) update.

    I'm not sure that I want ANet devs to put their hand on this skill. The skill is still good and ANet is better at ruining good skill than they are at improving them.

  • Thornwolf.9721Thornwolf.9721 Member ✭✭✭✭
    1. scourge needs to be toned down and turned into a full support spec, as it should of been from the start
    2. Reaper should be a "Lumbering horror" something hard to kill, but easy to outmanuver and if it catches you then its lights out.
    3. Necromancer itself as a core class needs TONS of love, needs overhauls to minions/curses/bloodmagic and to be made more of a caster and more focused around the occult roots and theme it has. The issue right now is it really doesn't feel like a necromancer it feels more a-kin to someone using deathmagic but more in the ways a basic novice would. It needs to be darker and more built around the core principles necromancers in fantasy are built around; This would set it apart while also giving it some unique depth.

    As for how they would do this, Im not sure. Every Idea I ever have for classes or any portion of the game seems to be shot down by the vocal minority, but I will say it should pull more from the guild wars 1 necromancer/ritualist. They had an excellent theme for both and merging them together could be cool, Its weapons need a hard rework as each of them are dated. Outside of that Im unwilling to share any concepts I may have~

  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I prefer to have utilities that function primarily as utilities. Converting them to dps subtracts the dps from weapons and elite skills. With that said, there are some utilities that have less utility than others, or more, and could use some balancing.

    However, each utility should be good at what it does and mesh well with the other utilities of its type.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    • First, rethink barrier, making it so that you can't stack them (because this is the root of the barrier issue in WvW and 1 of the reasons the scourge is overwhelmingly mandatory there)

    I partly agree here but i dont think thats the only issue wvw has other issues that are not just scourge barrier. Boons are out of control and anet made scourge to be the balance tool against the new boon heavy elite specs lets start there before we start anywhere else. There was no reason that every singlet utility including the heal needed to have boon corrupt that alone tells you something is flawed with how they considered their outlook on the necromancer to be going forward.

    True, but I was specifically talking about barrier, the boon corruption is a whole issue on it's own.

    • Third, make a choice, the necromancer was supposed to rely more on it's utility skills to deal damage than it's weapon and special mechanism. Either they focus on that point and make utilities truly reliable dps wise or they rethink the utilities and their role for the necromancer while puting damage on the weapons but they shouldn't try to keep having every skills do everything.

    I personally think its silly not to use your special mechanism when ever other profession for the most part uses theirs as a direct connection to their dps and not just on utilities I cant say i support the idea of forcing necro to depend on utilities. I think like most other professions using the special mechanism is still defiantly the way to go.

    The issue is that whereas the other professions have defense into both their weapon and utility, the necromancer don't. You can't just say that it would be strange for the necromancer to not rely on it's special mechanism to deal damage because all other profession does when at the same time all other profession rely on utility and weapon skill for their defense when the necromancer don't.

    From the very beginning the necromancer's design put it in the "strange" folder. A bit stranger won't hurt him much.

    This is a good point so why not just give the necormancer defensive tools on its weapons lol that seems like a better way to go at it than trying to rip the use of its special mechanism to a minimal. Alot of core weapons are already below average anyways so now would be a good time to do it in my opinion.

    That said fixing oudated weapons and utility would have been good and maybe added more dependable defenses and giving up on the idea that necro must be slow and be a punching bag would have done alot for the class overall. Instead they kept necro on the idea of that it must use conditional defense which changes in effectiveness from balance to balance as people take more or less condi clear/ resistance to condis / traits that reduce ore remove movement inhibiting conditions etc.

    I agree and at the same time I don't agree. The reason I don't agree is that ANet isn't especially bright when it come to "fixing" weapon. They just tend to add more and more things on top of what's already there. Before the weapon and utility they really need to fix the design that the necromancer need to follow. They need to make choices that allow us to make choices when we build. The necromancer in it's state don't allow that, almost all skills just try to do everything (from dealing damage to heal and debuff).

    At the same time necromancer is one of the flew classes who sits at the lower end of all those things which is where particularly in competitive modes other professions need to be brought down to not trying to raise the necro up the other professions in terms of damage or de buffs or healing. We know that wont ever be allowed because it would make necro overly viable and competitive against some of the strongest things right now which would be seen as necro being op.

    That said when it comes to dealing damage and healing at the same time thats a common trope of classes like necomancers / warlocks in a good number of games etc to be able to deal damage and also heal off a portion of that damage at the same time so i dont see an issue there. Infact if healing off of damage done was more viable (realistic/designed) i doubt you would see necromancers struggling with the use of mainly conditional defense with the lack of hard defenses. But because things like vampiric and vamp aura are fixed and not % based they are super minimal and very limited when it comes to effectiveness at their best and conditional defense is not stable enough based on the rest of the games current meta and balance. Necromancer has landed in this odd spot where its conditional defense is not stable, its self healing is over limited, and its damage is sub par from where everyone else is be it power or condition. Thats not to say it cant do damage it just wont ever ramp fast melting condis or insta kill levels of damage thats akin to 1 shot 100-0 in .8 seconds that many other professions can currently do

    Conditional defense is not very viable in 2019. That idea went down hill the moment the choice was made to have things like chill and cripple no longer effect movement skills and has only picked up speed over time.
    Weakness is RNG might work great 50% of the time and 50% of the time you take full damage anyways (fix this to not be so rng if you really want conditional defense to work.)

    Well, conditions are overnerfed when you depend on them and overtuned when you don't. It certainly would be good to see them being more reliable but I'm pretty sure that this wouldn't be well received by professions that don't rely on them by design.

    Sadly hard defenses dont change much unless you literally nerf the skill/tool itself in terms of cast, duration, cooldown, etc. A block is always a block, an evade is always going to evade, stealth is stealth etc. But conditional defenses changes in effectiveness from player to player and mob to mob its not consistently dependable like hard defenses are and where the game is now vs where it was 5-6 years ago is a massive difference.

    Yes, we are, again, looking at the fact that the necromancer's design philosophy is flawed and way to different from other profession's.

    Or its outdated and simply needs and update to its the tools its design philosophy follows perhaps a few shackles need to be removed from things so that they might be deemed usable or things adjusted such as how weakness, fear, chill, work as conditions etc.

    The necromancer need an overall to it's design not a bunch of mindless changes that strengthen it's flaws.

    Its not a total overhaul thats needed for core and reaper only scourge

    Here I disagree as well, scourge is exceptionally easy to fix.

    • You remove the manifest sand shades proc from the skills F2-5.
    • Replace torment on desert shroud tics by 1s of weakness and give it a power damage coefficient of 0.02 instead of what it is right now.

    Voila! The scourge's mechanism is fixed. They can even revert the delay thingy, CD splits and most of the core traits splits. The damage on the shade skills aren't "needed". If there is a lack of damage it come from the weapons and utility skills (which something that's known since far before the scourge's release).

    I personally would not call this fixed i would call this useless we just went through a whole conversation about how unstable conditional defense is. Weakness kinda does not mean anything when it only has a chance to work 50% of the time. It might completely negate someones burst or it might not do a thing at all which leads to you taking full damage rng in combat situations like this needs to be removed for static stability in effectiveness Then i might at least start to some what agree with what you are trying to do.

    That said you need more than just weakness procs on shade skills & barrier too if they wont be doing any realistic damage.

    Just rework its f skills completely no matter what anyone says to try and fix shades in their current form no mass number of people will ever agree its the right move thats how bad the design of them is. Anet keeps trying trick after trick with these shade things and all its doing is making the spec more trash. From release its been mostly a take take take take relationship due to how controversial and problematic the shades as a whole are.

    Core and reaper mostly need proper weapon updates and changes to condition if they want conditional defense to be a thing

    • main hand dagger
    • staff

    I disagree, staff is fine as is. The AA sure ould welcome an increase of it's attack speed, but overall, staff is fine.

    Then you are living in the past. if you think staff is "fine" you are more than welcome to think that way but a 1s fear on a 32s cd disagrees with you.
    Staff can be used yes but is it "fine" i dont think so i think its "outdated" but used because there is nothing else to use based on what you built into. Also how overly inefficient the weapon becomes without the trait investment is beyond me.

    • core shroud kit

    It did have it's update. Again, tweeking the AA to make it more responsive is the only thing that I find would be welcome.

    Needs more obviously or as you said the issues are with the core weapons one of which you think is fine its current state that i dont agree with.

    • Slightly increase fear sources and update it to drop target and make players unable to target anyone for its applied duration.

    I disagree. More fear sources isn't a good thing, as for dropping the target, it would end up making fear to strong.

    But taunt is fine forcing a player to target something else?
    More fear sources is debatable ill give you that one but updating the condition itself should not be "too" strong considering its counterpart causes a similar effect. Fear has had more counters added to the game over time via condi cleanse, traits/runes that reduce condition duration, condi clear, resistance, ontop of stab and breakstuns.

    • Remove the RNG on weakness make it a static thing and reduce applications and durations

    or just make it 25% damage decrease.

    Maybe

    • Make cripple and chill effective again against classes who can just jump at you over and over

    Well, make it so that it doesn't affect teleport but force a 1s additionnal cast time on other movement skills.

    It never effected teleports to start with and i dont think it should, im talking leaps, rushes, dashes, etc.
    I dont agree with your 1s cast time idea thats what the slow condition is for, something you think necro would have access to but does not.

  • anduriell.6280anduriell.6280 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 6, 2019

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    Gw2 has “fast-paced action combat!” and “Joy of movement!”, and the quick timing and speedy second to second reaction e-sports gameplay is super amazing! It’s totally not like that WoW game! But here we have a WoWish combat Necro where it’s supposed to be exciting to have a ton of slow casting skills and the least amount of “joy of movement”, but that’s all ok because we have a lot of health! Fun! Yeah! Lol

    Then you should use rune of speed with a reaper and it's 100% quickness uptime.
    You got the tools, necro dont need any rework as it has an overperforming build every gamemode.

    IMO the dev team would spend thier time better reviewing the overperforming condi thiefs, perma stealth thief, condi mirage, scourge, revenant and firebrand.

  • Knighthonor.4061Knighthonor.4061 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I want more Minions

  • Swagger.1459Swagger.1459 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @anduriell.6280 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:
    Gw2 has “fast-paced action combat!” and “Joy of movement!”, and the quick timing and speedy second to second reaction e-sports gameplay is super amazing! It’s totally not like that WoW game! But here we have a WoWish combat Necro where it’s supposed to be exciting to have a ton of slow casting skills and the least amount of “joy of movement”, but that’s all ok because we have a lot of health! Fun! Yeah! Lol

    Then you should use rune of speed with a reaper and it's 100% quickness uptime.
    You got the tools, necro dont need any rework as it has an overperforming build every gamemode.

    IMO the dev team would spend thier time better reviewing the overperforming condi thiefs, perma stealth thief, condi mirage, scourge, revenant and firebrand.

    U go solo roamz in wvwvw on Necros and come back 2 tell me they r fine. I b waiting.