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That Ascalon/Charr thread, but properly articulated


witcher.3197

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@Kalavier.1097 said:

@"Loesh.4697" said:I mean, that's a vast oversimplification. Ascalonian forces in killing their gods and butchering their way across the the continent had pretty badly beaten the Charr. They hadn't just killed Burntfur, but also numerous officers under him and killed hundreds, perhaps over a thousand Charr in battle. Sure the Charr weren't beaten but their primary power source was gone and their forces crippled for the foreseeable future, you could argue that the fact that Adelbern was still around by the end of that battle and the White Mantles Mursaat were slain would mean that humanity would reunite as the Shining Blade began to seize control again, and likely beat back the Charr Legions. They were after all heavily reliant on their magic, and frankly that's true even in GW2, without the Searing Cauldrons the Charr military is somewhat unimpressive.

We have no information implying their forces are crippled. As of GW1 prophecies end, we have no idea what the strength/numbers of the Charr are, and how many may be north in their homelands. Rurik, after killing Burntfur and the horde at Rin declared the war to be a lost cause. Rurik, who was in charge of Ascalon's Vanguard which was the primary offensive unit that Ascalon's army had. The main Ascalon army was almost entirely defensive, and it wasn't until EOTN that we met the Ebon Vanguard, which was the other Offensive arm of the forces of Ascalon. The Ebon Vanguard being the Ascalon Vanguard, once again under Adelbern's control and finances. Interesting bit is the blurb about Langmar." King Adelbern recognized Langmar's stoicism and ability to lead in the face of death and despair. He gave her the command of the Ascalonian Vanguard and ordered her north, behind enemy lines, on a mission of desperation."

As for the Charr strength, at the end of the Nolani academy mission, Rurik comments on their strength being "Many thousands" at that point, and they should make for Kryta to rebuild their strength. So as far as the game has informed us, the Charr strength as of Rurik's party leaving Ascalon was quite large.
Prince Rurik: "Trumpets! The king must be near. The fall of Rin will have darkened his heart. Hail King Adelbern!"King Adelbern: "Rise, my son. you have done well. The discovery of Stormcaller is surely a sign of victory."Prince Rurik: "It is a powerful weapon, but I fear not powerful enough. The Charr have amassed an army of many thousands."King Adelbern: "You overestimate these beasts, Rurik. Do not be afraid."Prince Rurik: "I am not afraid, father. I have seen them in battle. Rin has been destroyed! It would be wise to escape while we can. We should make for Kryta and rebuild our strength. Not wait here for death."King Adelbern: "I will never allow Ascalons to live in the shadow of the Krytans! It is Rin that will be rebuilt. And you will learn your place."Prince Rurik: "You have grown proud, Adelbern of Ascalon...proud and foolish!"King Adelbern: "You would dare call your king a fool? I will hear no more. I banish you from Ascalon! You are no longer my prince, and you are no longer my son!"Prince Rurik: "People of Rin! Your king will lead you to death. If you wish to see better days, if you wish to live, then leave the beasts behind and follow me over the Shiverpeaks. We make for Kryta and a new life, free of the Charr."

Also, as of the end of Prophecies the White Mantle was not defeated at all, just beaten and the Mursaat killed. Kryta was not liberated, nor the shining blade implied to actually be in a spot to overtake them. Do remember, we left Kryta with the Shining blade being betrayed and almost wiped out, seeking a way to kill the Mursaat.

I suppose where I disagree with those people is with the idea that Ascalon was a total loss though. While Ascalon City is gone the way the war is portrayed makes it seem like the Charr were wedged into an increasingly hopeless battle against an enemy that basically just had to wait for them to collapse. The only reason the Charr didn't consider what was in practice a surrender in the Fields of Ruin before is to save face. Smodur required something to make it seem like the Charr were getting a thing out of this deal, and Malice couldn't reveal her intentions at all until the negotiations were underway properly. In that sense the Charr actually lost the Ascalonian War for Independence, and pretty badly.

I don't see at all how the Charr were in a hopeless battle. We see Ascalon quite literally one year after the cease fire and while things are rough in specific areas, overall it's stable. Ebonhawke was not in any spot to actually push out, they didn't need to surrender at all. What happened was the dragon threat became real for them, and the brand carved a path through Ascalon. The Truce faction subtly managed to get enough support to make the deal for the Claw in exchange for a truce, allowing troops to go to fight the dragons (As the truce faction was headed by Almorra, Malice, and Smodur). What happened was both sides could turn to face the branded/ogre threat in the area, instead of each other.

Sure Ascalonians didn't get Ascalon, but they got almost everything between Ebonhawke and twin sisters crossing. Perhaps more now that the Brands being undone and there's not an excuse for the Sentinels to remain, can't imagine that Bangars put the Charr into a good bargaining position on the thing.

Treaty is already signed and finalized. The war is over, and the Rurik faction of Ascalonian's succeeded. The Adelbern Ascalonians will fade away as their hatred and idiotic stubborness causes them to die out, just like Adelbern caused his followers.

The ones that remain will be happy to be able to live without the fear of bombardment or attacks, able to use the vast Quarry and mining/stonework skills to sell to Kryta for important goods.

In the end, quite literally everybody wins. The Charr won the war, reclaiming most of Ascalon. Ebonhawke survived, and it's people have the corner to themselves to live on around their fortress. The idiots who can only think of war and want the total destruction of the other side will die out, as the Separatists have lost their main funding/supplier a while ago (the white mantle lead by Cadeucus), and I'm sure we'll be dealing with Bangar and his renegade influence for good in the upcoming story.

Ascalon survived, not as Adelbern's insane stubborness wanted, but how the beloved Rurik envisioned it. Rebuilding within Kryta, returning when they had strength (Ebon Vanguard), and securing a home. He saw that to survive one couldn't cling to old hatreds, unlike his father. He saw their old foes as possible future allies. Just like Jennah, and the Duke of Ebonhawke does.

Rurik went out of Ascalon to lead the refugees to Kryta, essentially saving them by moving them somewhere else. I somehow doubt that Rurik had any idea that we would wind up actually fighting and exterminating the Charr gods at some point in the conflict. His story starts, and ends, pretty early on in prophecies and frankly even then i'm unsure of how accurate Ruriks assessment of the war is. After all we know for a fact it's not a lost cause because...well, Ebonhawke wins in the end. It doesn't win EVERYTHING but it beats out the combined forces of the Legions and takes over the Fields, ensuring that Adelberns Ascalonians survive into the forseeable future on Ascalonian soil. Sure the White Mantle might not of been wholly wiped out but, well, their gods are dead, their time in the sun is over. Inevitably another revolutionary force would of picked up where the Shining Blade left off, assuming they didn't somehow survive.

I think I already mentioned this in another post, but the Charr very explicitly did not pull out just because of the Dragons. Vanguard Morrison points out exactly where the Charr forces in Ebonhawke went, they were all being funneled into Fireheart Rise. not really surprising, the Legions were never going to put THAT many troops into the Pact, since their people were first and foremost focused on themselves. When you talk to the dissatisfied factions in the area they point out much the same, the Charr are agreeing to this because of the Brand yes, but also because of the immortal ghosts and the Flame Legion. Elwin Fairchild certainly believes that before anything else the Charr did this to make the civil war more manageable, and whether or not the commander believes it is up for debate but it's the line of reasoning they take to calm down both Separatist and Renegade sympathizers. The former they tell the Charr Legions are utterly defeated and doing this to save face, the latter they tell are in such a position that without the humans the Charr Legions are going to suffer on the Flame, Ghosts, and Dragons.

The Brand was an important turning point yes, but it's not the sole reason the treaty was signed and never was. The Ogre Revolt slaughtering the forces pitched out in front of the Ebonhawke Gates was just the nail in the coffin to a slow grueling war that seemed without end. That's why Bangar's rhetoric is so intoxicating, why it mirrors so closely to Alt Right speech that both tells you that you are both a lsoer but also that your time is now and you can reclaim the world if you can rise up against the manipulative forces that always profited off your weakness. Now that your eyes have been forced open, your time is now, just seize it.

They feel like they lost, and from a certain point of view they did. I mean you've defined your entire culture by war, and now you have to stop warring. How do you reconcile the notion of giving up on a fight you've pursued for centuries and giving up the land your ancestors fought to humans? How powerful is that shame of dead Charr to you? Further if you've been indoctrinated to believe that land was always your land, or gods forbid that ALL land was your land, Ebonhawke will forever exist as a thorn jammed into the side of your heart, not only did you fail to exterminate your hated foe, but you gave them the space to grow and prosper.

As for Rurik and Adelbern, Ruriks faction of Ascalonians definitely succeeded, but the Ebon Vanguard never 'returned when they were strong enough'. To the contrary they kept fighting long after Rurik had escorted those refugees, always pushing on the Legions while sparing only a few of their forces to aid Kryta during the war against the Mantle. More then Adelbern wanted sure, but definitely less then Salma would of hoped for. The vast majority kept fighting up north, going south when called by Adelbern, and then building a keep on his orders as the last holdout. Whether motivated by his madness, or by an evil he suspected to be there(Kimmes logs point to either possibly being true.) Ebonhakwe is first and foremost his legacy.

So yes Rurik succeeded, but in a strange way so did Adelbern. It wasn't the victory he would want, he didn't retake all of Ascalon, but it was a victory fueled by his stubborn desire to stay. His people survived, they remained in Ascalon, and they even expanded out beyond the last holdout that he had originally envisioned.

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@"anninke.7469" said:Where was it actually stated that the Charr have any kind of legitimate claim to Ascalon by anyone else than a Charr? Because it seems absolutely logical for Charr to insist on whatever ancestral "rights" they believe they have. I don't recall anyone relevant saying that the Charr are only victims of evil humans or anything like that. And of course Bangar would play on the victim note. It's easy and it works. However, I really can't remember a single thing that would make me believe there's anything more than "we were stronger so we're here now" to Charr presence in Ascalon, even though I didn't play GW1 (which seems to be what worries some posters).

ANet did in 2012 with this. The Trivia part at the bottom, it even states they contradicted themselves with this.

This came up years ago when GW2 launched. There's even an GW1 EotN map which shows the Charr homelands northeast of Ascalon. And a wiki entry here. When GW2 changed that, the explanation from some players was that that was simply human propaganda...

It seems that even during EotN they hadn't thought of changing Ascalon to be Charr homelands yet. I'm guessing ANet thought of it in 2012 sometime to artificially give the Charr a more legitimate claim to land.

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@Obsidian.1328 said:

@"anninke.7469" said:Where was it actually stated that the Charr have any kind of legitimate claim to Ascalon by anyone else than a Charr? Because it seems absolutely logical for Charr to insist on whatever ancestral "rights" they believe they have. I don't recall anyone relevant saying that the Charr are only victims of evil humans or anything like that. And of course Bangar would play on the victim note. It's easy and it works. However, I really can't remember a single thing that would make me believe there's anything more than "we were stronger so we're here now" to Charr presence in Ascalon, even though I didn't play GW1 (which seems to be what worries some posters).

ANet did in 2012 with
. The Trivia part at the bottom, it even states they contradicted themselves with this.

This came up years ago when GW2 launched. There's even an
which shows the Charr homelands northeast of Ascalon. And a wiki entry
. When GW2 changed that, the explanation from some players was that that was simply human propaganda...

It seems that even during EotN they hadn't thought of changing Ascalon to be Charr homelands yet. I'm guessing ANet thought of it in 2012 sometime to artificially give the Charr a more legitimate claim to land.

Thank you.But while it sure is inconsistent, it's not really the kind of legitimate I had in mind. Like morally legitimate thus making the Charr victims of some kind of injustice. Meaning I still don't understand that percieved charr favouritism. Only their point of view was added, which is inevitably right the opposite from humans'.

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@anninke.7469 said:

@anninke.7469 said:Where was it actually stated that the Charr have any kind of legitimate claim to Ascalon by anyone else than a Charr? Because it seems absolutely logical for Charr to insist on whatever ancestral "rights" they believe they have. I don't recall anyone relevant saying that the Charr are only victims of evil humans or anything like that. And of course Bangar would play on the victim note. It's easy and it works. However, I really can't remember a single thing that would make me believe there's anything more than "we were stronger so we're here now" to Charr presence in Ascalon, even though I didn't play GW1 (which seems to be what worries some posters).

ANet did in 2012 with
. The Trivia part at the bottom, it even states they contradicted themselves with this.

This came up years ago when GW2 launched. There's even an
which shows the Charr homelands northeast of Ascalon. And a wiki entry
. When GW2 changed that, the explanation from some players was that that was simply human propaganda...

It seems that even during EotN they hadn't thought of changing Ascalon to be Charr homelands yet. I'm guessing ANet thought of it in 2012 sometime to artificially give the Charr a more legitimate claim to land.

Thank you.But while it sure is inconsistent, it's not really the kind of legitimate I had in mind. Like morally legitimate thus making the Charr victims of some kind of injustice. Meaning I still don't understand that percieved charr favouritism. Only their point of view was added, which is inevitably right the opposite from humans'.

Well...that reason is a lot more subjective.

I still think the underlying cause for all of this was ANet's desire to whittle down the humans to one distinct culture: Krytan. Once that decision was made, they realized they couldn't just make human Ascalon vanish out of thin air...despite it being no where near the kingdom it used to be. And they do very much care about continuity. So they had to think of ways to slowly and carefully shift human Ascalon to Charr Ascalon. Adelbern's rage, Ascalon's ruin right after the war, and even having the game set 250 years later, all help them do this by providing practical reasons for human Ascalon's demise. The novel Ghosts of Ascalon is especially concerned with this topic, and should be seen as a foundational narrative for Ascalon's reimagining as Charr lands.

Ebonhawke was really thrown in there as a nod to GW1 enthusiasts who have sentimental attachments to Ascalon, but I don't think ANet sees that small enclave as much of anything besides a thoughtful homage to something that is definitely not coming back. Ascalon is Charr lands now because that's what ANet wants it to be. Whether or not it's believable enough is sort of irrelevant at this point.

As for any moral justification for the Charr being the proper rulers of Ascalon, there isn't really any in GW1 (although you do start to see it in EotN). But once ANet decided to make Ascalon the ancestral homeland of one of the Legions (I can't remember which one) in GW2, that's all you really need to do to legitimize that. There are very few things more justified than fighting for your home. The irony is that's what humans have been trying to do this whole time as well.

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@Obsidian.1328 said:

@"anninke.7469" said:Where was it actually stated that the Charr have any kind of legitimate claim to Ascalon by anyone else than a Charr? Because it seems absolutely logical for Charr to insist on whatever ancestral "rights" they believe they have. I don't recall anyone relevant saying that the Charr are only victims of evil humans or anything like that. And of course Bangar would play on the victim note. It's easy and it works. However, I really can't remember a single thing that would make me believe there's anything more than "we were stronger so we're here now" to Charr presence in Ascalon, even though I didn't play GW1 (which seems to be what worries some posters).

ANet did in 2012 with
. The Trivia part at the bottom, it even states they contradicted themselves with this.

This came up years ago when GW2 launched. There's even an
which shows the Charr homelands northeast of Ascalon. And a wiki entry
. When GW2 changed that, the explanation from some players was that that was simply human propaganda...

It seems that even during EotN they hadn't thought of changing Ascalon to be Charr homelands yet. I'm guessing ANet thought of it in 2012 sometime to artificially give the Charr a more legitimate claim to land.

I'll note a few things.

A: The charr called Ascalon their hunting grounds, IIRC, and it's never referred to as their "homeland", but instead as Iron Legion's territory. I can't recall many comments about Ascalon being homeland to the Charr, just that it was the Charr's territory before humanity kicked them out and claimed it. In the split, it was Iron Legion's land, while Blood, Ash, and Flame had their own lands. I suppose that can be taken as "Iron Legion homeland" admittedly.

B: GW1 Prophecies explicitly stated that humanity came, and took lands that DID NOT belong to them. Ascalon being part of that is perfectly reasonable.

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@"Kalavier.1097" said:B: GW1 Prophecies explicitly stated that humanity came, and took lands that DID NOT belong to them. Ascalon being part of that is perfectly reasonable.

Technically nothing on Tyria "belonged" to humans at all...they aren't even from the planet for crying out loud. Their coming to Tyria is wrapped up in the Six somehow. The whole point of them spreading across the land is to give them some background and explain how things got to be where they are now. They took lands from indigenous races because apparently their gods wanted them to establish roots here...who knows why? It's simply a fuzzy origin story, no writer ever really expanded on that. If you're going to blame Ascalons for stealing native lands thousands of years ago, then you might as blame all humans on the face of the planet in the same way.

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@"Kalavier.1097" said:A: The charr called Ascalon their hunting grounds, IIRC, and it's never referred to as their "homeland", but instead as Iron Legion's territory. I can't recall many comments about Ascalon being homeland to the Charr, just that it was the Charr's territory before humanity kicked them out and claimed it.

Eh? It's in the cinematic if you create a Charr character. Many Charr NPC's refer to it as their "homeland", as does the very first heart NPC in the Plains of Ashford.

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You're forgetting something here... Ascalon was charr territory before it was human. so charr just wanted to get their territory back at all cost. at the end of the day, Char is the only tyrian race. Asuras were from underground until the fire/lava/ocean dragon, Norn were from somewhere else form the north before jormag, humans where fom cantha and elona, silvary god knows... and charr form tyria.

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@Kalavier.1097 said:

@"anninke.7469" said:Where was it actually stated that the Charr have any kind of legitimate claim to Ascalon by anyone else than a Charr? Because it seems absolutely logical for Charr to insist on whatever ancestral "rights" they believe they have. I don't recall anyone relevant saying that the Charr are only victims of evil humans or anything like that. And of course Bangar would play on the victim note. It's easy and it works. However, I really can't remember a single thing that would make me believe there's anything more than "we were stronger so we're here now" to Charr presence in Ascalon, even though I didn't play GW1 (which seems to be what worries some posters).

ANet did in 2012 with
. The Trivia part at the bottom, it even states they contradicted themselves with this.

This came up years ago when GW2 launched. There's even an
which shows the Charr homelands northeast of Ascalon. And a wiki entry
. When GW2 changed that, the explanation from some players was that that was simply human propaganda...

It seems that even during EotN they hadn't thought of changing Ascalon to be Charr homelands yet. I'm guessing ANet thought of it in 2012 sometime to artificially give the Charr a more legitimate claim to land.

I'll note a few things.

A: The charr called Ascalon their hunting grounds, IIRC, and it's never referred to as their "homeland", but instead as Iron Legion's territory. I can't recall many comments about Ascalon being homeland to the Charr, just that it was the Charr's territory before humanity kicked them out and claimed it. In the split, it was Iron Legion's land, while Blood, Ash, and Flame had their own lands. I suppose that can be taken as "Iron Legion homeland" admittedly.

B: GW1 Prophecies explicitly stated that humanity came, and took lands that DID NOT belong to them. Ascalon being part of that is perfectly reasonable.

Both Ascalon and the lands north of it are called "homelands" by the charr, but in technicality, neither is where the charr originate. Charr originated east of the Blazeridge and invaded westward then south once hitting the Shiverpeaks.

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