Ranger Spirits

[One Kiss Away.9180]

Why do the Rangers Spirits no longer follow you, Almost makes them useless.

[Digit.1823]

How do you mean? They never followed you in the first place.

And in the current iteration of these specific skills, if you press the skill button again after summoning the spirits they will actually teleport to your current location. So you can kinda make them follow you around albeit on a cooldown.

[kharmin.7683]

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/70399/game-update-notes-march-5-2019In our last balance update, we made a few changes to Nature's Vengeance to tweak the boons provided by each spirit. In this update, we've applied major changes to the spirits themselves. Active spirit skills are generally not usable due to the high cost of sacrificing the spirit and the localized effect that the sacrifice causes. We are changing these active skills to teleport the spirit to the player's location before the spirit uses their skill. Additionally, we're removing the 100% health sacrifice. In exchange, spirits no longer have preset time durations for how long they can stay alive and instead lose health as they passively enhance allies. This is intended to provide a more dynamic gameplay experience than their current cast-on-recharge functionality. Of course, spirits can still be used in this manner, but proper use of the ranger's healing skills and more powerful active skills to reposition and attack with the spirits will yield stronger results.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

@"Digit.1823" said:How do you mean? They never followed you in the first place.

And in the current iteration of these specific skills, if you press the skill button again after summoning the spirits they will actually teleport to your current location. So you can kinda make them follow you around albeit on a cooldown.They used to have a trait that made them follow you, but it created "spirit trains", and people complained about it. Amoung other things, players felt like only the Necro should be a minion master and that there was too much overlap in their roles.

[One Kiss Away.9180]

Rangers seem to be constantly nerfed. Next balance, Anet will probably nerf long bow range by 30% because other people think that is unfair .... crazy. Necros (minions), Elementalist(Lesser elementals and Greater Elementals) that follow them around like a train. Rangers really do not gave a whole lot of great Utility Skills as it is. Please make it possible to not have to always have a pet with you.

[InsaneQR.7412]

@One Kiss Away.9180 said:Rangers seem to be constantly nerfed. Next balance, Anet will probably nerf long bow range by 30% because other people think that is unfair .... crazy. Necros (minions), Elementalist(Lesser elementals and Greater Elementals) that follow them around like a train. Rangers really do not gave a whole lot of great Utility Skills as it is. Please make it possible to not have to always have a pet with you.

(Maybe should start another thread about this)The Guardian finally had the Spirit weapons reworked they were finally functional only to have them reworked again where they no longer follow the target and only have one trait.

The spirit change is over 4 years ago.Saying that ranger gets constantly nerfed because of a 4 year old change is quite hyperbolic.They need more mobility though or atleast ground targeting.

I suggest summoning the spirits at a targeted area with a visible non blockable projectile like wisp.And then buff allies in the impact area.That would give ranger AoE back and more mobile buffing abilities. Especially if these abilities would have ammunition.

[aymnad.9023]

I think the current spirits are fine since they added the teleport on skill use. They are still highly used in PvE group content, the cd is short enough so you can move them frequently (making them better for fights were the boss/arena forces movement) and it is easy to sustain them as a druid.

[anduriell.6280]

@InsaneQR.7412 said:

@"One Kiss Away.9180" said:Rangers seem to be constantly nerfed. Next balance, Anet will probably nerf long bow range by 30% because other people think that is unfair .... crazy. Necros (minions), Elementalist(Lesser elementals and Greater Elementals) that follow them around like a train. Rangers really do not gave a whole lot of great Utility Skills as it is. Please make it possible to not have to always have a pet with you.

(Maybe should start another thread about this)The Guardian finally had the Spirit weapons reworked they were finally functional only to have them reworked again where they no longer follow the target and only have one trait.

The spirit change is over 4 years ago.Saying that ranger gets constantly nerfed because of a 4 year old change is quite hyperbolic.They need more mobility though or atleast ground targeting.

I suggest summoning the spirits at a targeted area with a visible non blockable projectile like wisp.And then buff allies in the impact area.That would give ranger AoE back and more mobile buffing abilities. Especially if these abilities would have ammunition.

I like that idea, although i wouldnt mind to be behave like a normal projectile.So it can : Apply conditions and damage and buff allies if we have the GM.

Either way to make spirits like worst than banners (because of the decreasing HP) was one of the worst changes this game has suffer until now. In a class which isndescribed with "the ranger has to reposition continuosly to get the best of his weapons and skills" in the official page, to have any rooting skill (axe#5) or static utility(spirits) is just so confusing and upsetting as it does not make any sense with the rest of the class.

I personaly would make spirit s:

• Mobile baseline with reduced passive AoE and limited allies target (let's say 600 and 5 targets) for the passive effect oriented to PvP, WvW and open world PvE)
• And adept trait to make them static with increased radius and targets (1200 and 10 targets) for raids.
• With more base HP baseline, at least 50% more.
• With decreasesing HP, but as baseline the ranger shares (like bountiful hunter) the boons with the spirits.
• With a ranged ground AoE for the actives which release them and the utility goes into CD which behave as a prjectile
• And the GM to provide the same as now, so the actives would provide also boons to the allies within the AoE.

If this other changes I've requested are also applied:

• by baseline all ranger projectiles has an 100% chance to proc a combo field.
• GM trait Lead The Wind to apply 1 stack of unblockable when a projectile combo field is triggered.

As such you get your unblockable effect but under a couple of requeriments: Need the glass power trainline (for the spirits which are condition based) and you need to hit a combo field on the way.

So spirit actives can be as impactful and imaginative as the need to be. And being killable is good if the passives will also be impactful and imaginative.

Otherwise if we are talking about design exclusive for raids, better then to have immortal spirits with unblockable attacks. The raid bosses will not complain that is for sure.

Spirits was a very cool design which was destroyed by the people in charge of the nerfs. I'd like it back for the core ranger and NOT being stripped down to be brought as feature of any new spec as that would upset me the most.

At least they had the decency to ask when the tomes were removed from the core guardian.

Footnote:

Random comment: Ahah you ask for more HP which makes more health to be drained every second without the GM trait you won't be able to keep them alive for long.Well that's the point, you get more usable spirits but without NM traitline and healing power, or not being a druid to be able to bring them back to health no ranger should be able to keep them alive indefinitely. It is a self contained balanced design which defines how the spirits can be played and rewards the player in one way or another.

[Teratus.2859]

@aymnad.9023 said:I think the current spirits are fine since they added the teleport on skill use. They are still highly used in PvE group content, the cd is short enough so you can move them frequently (making them better for fights were the boss/arena forces movement) and it is easy to sustain them as a druid.

I started using Spirits before HoT came out and I stopped using them entirely after the last big update.

Teleport on use is fine.. for the Water and Nature spirits.. it's utter garbage on the utility spirits since their abilities are offensive! having them teleport to the Ranger instead of a targetted enemy only benefits Rangers in melee range and makes them almost utterly useless to any Ranger with a Range weapon/playstyle including the druid which is arguably the best for running spirits.

They're also significantly weaker now.. no more boon spam only limited boons on active use which as I just mentioned sucks due to the teleport and they die significantly faster than before due to the health degen.

So yeah Spirits suck hard right now and I seriously hope this change is reversed.. otherwise I personally won't use them ever again.

[Digit.1823]

@Hannelore.8153 said:

@"Digit.1823" said:How do you mean? They never followed you in the first place.

And in the current iteration of these specific skills, if you press the skill button again after summoning the spirits they will actually teleport to your current location. So you can kinda make them follow you around albeit on a cooldown.They used to have a trait that made them follow you, but it created "spirit trains", and people complained about it. Amoung other things, players felt like only the Necro should be a minion master and that there was too much overlap in their roles.

Well i must have missed that particular trait then, or my stupid ass simple never used it, then again it was over 4 years ago. So that functionality hasn't been available for quite some time. To make a thread about that now sounds like....a little bit late to the party?

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

@Digit.1823 said:

@Hannelore.8153 said:

@Digit.1823 said:How do you mean? They never followed you in the first place.

And in the current iteration of these specific skills, if you press the skill button again after summoning the spirits they will actually teleport to your current location. So you can kinda make them follow you around albeit on a cooldown.They used to have a trait that made them follow you, but it created "spirit trains", and people complained about it. Amoung other things, players felt like only the Necro should be a minion master and that there was too much overlap in their roles.

Well i must have missed that particular trait then, or my stupid kitten simple never used it, then again it was over 4 years ago. So that functionality hasn't been available for quite some time. To make a thread about that now sounds like....a little bit late to the party?

Alot of the returning players haven't played since the first year of the game.

[aymnad.9023]

@Teratus.2859 said:

@aymnad.9023 said:I think the current spirits are fine since they added the teleport on skill use. They are still highly used in PvE group content, the cd is short enough so you can move them frequently (making them better for fights were the boss/arena forces movement) and it is easy to sustain them as a druid.

I started using Spirits before HoT came out and I stopped using them entirely after the last big update.

Teleport on use is fine.. for the Water and Nature spirits.. it's utter garbage on the utility spirits since their abilities are offensive! having them teleport to the Ranger instead of a targetted enemy only benefits Rangers in melee range and makes them almost utterly useless to any Ranger with a Range weapon/playstyle including the druid which is arguably the best for running spirits.

You are the first person to tell me they are offensive. They are not. They are supportive.The passives are boost to allies, not direct damage and do not fit an aggressive build. You have other options to do that.The active tp are aoe control/cc based. You can use it offensively to catch someone or defensively to escape. Even the sun spirit has blind to show this.

The teleport is a great for any spirit. You reposition them depending on your needs. With the radius you can also hit players from mid range. It does not really matter since ranger is not designed to be a range support.My guess is that you only look at them in a player vs player scenario. It would have been better if you could control the tp area for sure but the spirits would still have the issues you describe after .

They're also significantly weaker now.. no more boon spam only limited boons on active use which as I just mentioned sucks due to the teleport and they die significantly faster than before due to the health degen.So yeah Spirits suck hard right now and I seriously hope this change is reversed.. otherwise I personally won't use them ever again.Yes you might never use them again in PvP or WvW. The health degen is one factor but it is also because they do not heal each other and have a slow animation. They would still die even without the degeneration to any aoe without the druid specs. The low hp, the cd and semi random effect would not make them viable. Even renegade who has pressure, shorter cd and instant effects are struggling there.In PvE you definitely will use them. Druids always have spirits and even slb can carry them when a group wants them. The fact that they provide an easy access to boons/unique effects to 10 man with a high duration makes them far, far from bad in group content. (semi subjective note : The demand for them is so high that it does not bother me to not have them in other modes, many profession have something similar.)

[JohnWater.5760]

@Digit.1823 said:How do you mean? They never followed you in the first place.

Nope, they did before. Long time ago.

[JohnWater.5760]

@aymnad.9023 said:You are the first person to tell me they are offensive. They are not. They are supportive.The passives are boost to allies, not direct damage and do not fit an aggressive build. You have other options to do that.The active tp are aoe control/cc based. You can use it offensively to catch someone or defensively to escape. Even the sun spirit has blind to show this.

Some of them are an Offensive Support. >.<

[aymnad.9023]

@JohnWater.5760 said:Some of them are an Offensive Support. >.<Reread the post I answered to. It was about the teleport skill. As for the passive nobody would consider banners as offensive. Off support for some passives sure but not offensive.

[Teratus.2859]

@aymnad.9023 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:

@aymnad.9023 said:I think the current spirits are fine since they added the teleport on skill use. They are still highly used in PvE group content, the cd is short enough so you can move them frequently (making them better for fights were the boss/arena forces movement) and it is easy to sustain them as a druid.

I started using Spirits before HoT came out and I stopped using them entirely after the last big update.

Teleport on use is fine.. for the Water and Nature spirits.. it's utter garbage on the utility spirits since their abilities are offensive! having them teleport to the Ranger instead of a targetted enemy only benefits Rangers in melee range and makes them almost utterly useless to any Ranger with a Range weapon/playstyle including the druid which is arguably the best for running spirits.

You are the first person to tell me they are offensive. They are not. They are supportive.The passives are boost to allies, not direct damage and do not fit an aggressive build. You have other options to do that.The active tp are aoe control/cc based. You can use it offensively to catch someone or defensively to escape. Even the sun spirit has blind to show this.

You could use the Frost and Stone spirits as an escape tactic true.. although they are far more effective as offensive CC for breaking bars and imobalizing enemies for AoE.Sun and Storm on the other hand are purely offensive spirits.Sun has blind yes but it's main use is for burning and Storm straight up deals damage on active use along with weak CC that's only good for breakbars and interups.So having these spirits teleport to you only benefits you if you're running melee and I wouldn't think many melee builds would ever choose to run spirits at the expense of their dps unless they were support tanks.. and I don't know anyone would would take Ranger as a tank option over other classes, specially since Rangers have pets which often do the tanking for them anyway.Rangers are better of as ranged support through druid, healing and buffing etc so even in that playstyle the Ranger will be at range using a bow or staff so having spirits port to the Ranger instead of the party members stacked on the enemy makes no sense unless the ranger gets in close enough to make their boons effective but wasting their damage, CC and AoE effects.If the Ranger gets in close enough tp use them that way then chances are the spirits will get caught in damage and killed since they're pretty squishy now even with traits which only makes more reason for them to port to enemies anyway and spare a support ranger from having to risk getting in close to use them.

The teleport is a great for any spirit. You reposition them depending on your needs. With the radius you can also hit players from mid range. It does not really matter since ranger is not designed to be a range support.

Strongly disagree there, I ran Ranger as ranged support for years when I used spirits.Many times had to deal with criticism over the years about Rangers as a class having rubbish dps and that I should play Warrior etc instead of wasting my time with a Ranger.Soulbeast made them a decent if not exceptional dps class to be feared in some game modes but Druid is primarily a ranged support spec more than anything else.I played through the game right along side friends who streamed their experience and I could see how much they relied on my spirits boon spam after it was taken away.They started getting downed a lot more in content they'd previously had no problems with because they were no longer getting all that regen and protection I used to supply them with but no longer can on this class anymore.When we do play together now I usually use my Necromancer instead which still has it's awesome support capabilities so I can keep them alive.

My guess is that you only look at them in a player vs player scenario. It would have been better if you could control the tp area for sure but the spirits would still have the issues you describe after .

I don't play PvP and rarely play WvW, my focus is looking at them purely from PvE, specifically open world PvE which is where I used them most of all over the years.But I do agree with you that controlling their TP via ground target or something would actually be a good compromise even if it's more clunky to use.The only issue they would still have though would be their squishy degenerating hp bars.. but it would still be an improvement.

Reread the post I answered to. It was about the teleport skill. As for the passive nobody would consider banners as offensive. Off support for some passives sure but not offensive.

Banners are really different from spirits.. I wouldn't compare them myself since Banners are almost purely for buffs and Spirits have both buffs and have offensive capabilities.You can pick up a banner and stab people with it or quick finish a player in PvP with the elite but that's not the same as teleporting a spirit to you and having it produce a AoE attack.Banners can't be attacked either nor have a degenerating hp bar so they're far too different to compare to spirits imo.

[Thornwolf.9721]

@Digit.1823 said:How do you mean? They never followed you in the first place.

And in the current iteration of these specific skills, if you press the skill button again after summoning the spirits they will actually teleport to your current location. So you can kinda make them follow you around albeit on a cooldown.

There was a tactic that let them stay indefinitely and they walked around with you. This was a long, long time ago though~ Was removed before HoT I remember it because rangers would bring them when they wanted to be a long range dps to support them and their team. Was fun and kinda cool made the ranger feel like a zoo-keeper which was nice~ Sadly everyone hates AI or companions/pets so it was removed. Similar to how Soul-beast removes the pet...

[aymnad.9023]

@Teratus.2859 said:You could use the Frost and Stone spirits as an escape tactic true.. although they are far more effective as offensive CC for breaking bars and imobalizing enemies for AoE.Sun and Storm on the other hand are purely offensive spirits.Sun has blind yes but it's main use is for burning and Storm straight up deals damage on active use along with weak CC that's only good for breakbars and interups.+Banners are really different from spirits.. I wouldn't compare them myself since Banners are almost purely for buffs and Spirits have both buffs and have offensive capabilities.You can pick up a banner and stab people with it or quick finish a player in PvP with the elite but that's not the same as teleporting a spirit to you and having it produce a AoE attack.Banners can't be attacked either nor have a degenerating hp bar so they're far too different to compare to spirits imo.Banners and spirits have some big similarities, this is why I used them as a comparison for the passive effect. Both are used to increase damage and defense and are unique 10 man buffs. One directly through stats, the other through on hit effects.Storm activable was mostly used for the daze (so an other aoe control), not for the damage. I agree that sun main use on the activable is the burn but the blind clearly shows they wanted it to be a support option like the other (and not have pulsating blind).

Strongly disagree there, I ran Ranger as ranged support for years when I used spirits.The reason I see ranger more as a close range support is because the most effective heals/buffs are in a small area around him. It is also easier to build a close ranger support if you look at all the talents/utilities. But to be fair most of the professions are like that. Imo the only one that can be good in range is elementalist. Then revenant and necro can do some decent things.

I am going to go a bit off topic. This is my personal opinion on Ranger utilities / talents. You can disagree with them (even with the very next sentence ^^), I only post this to explain why I see ranger as a close support.First I do not classify LB,SB as support weapons even if some skills have some potential. If you want to add them, then I think off hand axe and GS can also be considered as support options.

• Range support (>600range): Celestial avatar auto, seed of life, lunar impact, glyph of stars, staff auto, astral wisp, sublime conversion, explosion in combo field (only with lunar impact), muddy terrain, ancient seeds. =>My opinion: While this seems like an ok amount I only consider 4 (I did edit this number because I did not put Staff 5 before) as fully reliable support options (lunar impact, glyph of the stars, sublime conversion even if that is a weird one because of the aoe form, then combo with lunar impact / muddy terrain/ancient seeds but still situational). The rest can range from decent to clunky because any movement will make them miss.
• Mid range support (around 600 range): Spirits aura, shouts (search and rescue, protect me, sometimes guard but it is not the best…), talent (resounding timber), spotter, entangle, spiritual reprieve. =>My opinion: I think those are solid/decent options. All of them have some weaknesses and even if sometimes other professions can do better they are reliable and quick to use. Shouts are situational (sloth breakstun, range rez), entangle is one of the best aoe cc (even if super easy to dispell in PvP), spotter is a nice buff, spirits are great if not targeted and you can stay in their area, spiritual reprieve is a great aoe heal / resistance but has a long cd.
• Close range support : Glyphs, Rejuvenating Tides, spirits activable, ancestral grace, healing spring, talents (grace of the land, celestial shadow, cultivated synergy, leader of the pack), call of the wild, explosions in combo field (staff, warhorn). =>My opinion: I think those are some of the best effects ranger has. This is what allows you to buffs your allies, dispel, cc (situational) and quick heal skills for multiple allies. For the heals, even if you can get targeted or hit by cleave damage you will regen instantly (except for tides in PvP)

Then you have the pets. Kind of a weird thing that I do not know how to classify. They can play a big role or do very little. Most of them are used for range cc but you could also use them as an additional source of buff.

I played through the game right along side friends who streamed their experience and I could see how much they relied on my spirits boon spam after it was taken away.They started getting downed a lot more in content they'd previously had no problems with because they were no longer getting all that regen and protection I used to supply them with but no longer can on this class anymore.I never used the spirits in solo content so to be honest I cannot tell how much this could be impactful. Back then I did prefer to use a build based on first strike. Apparently some people used spirits in open world also to tank damage. I never saw it but some complained on the forum after they added the degen.

[Teratus.2859]

@aymnad.9023 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:Strongly disagree there, I ran Ranger as ranged support for years when I used spirits.The reason I see ranger more as a close range support is because the most effective heals/buffs are in a small area around him. It is also easier to build a close ranger support if you look at all the talents/utilities. But to be fair most of the professions are like that. Imo the only one that can be good in range is elementalist. Then revenant and necro can do some decent things.

I do not classify LB,SB as support weapons even if some skills have some potential.

I have a much more simplified definition on that then, pretty much if you're using a ranged weapon and not in your enemies face then you're playing ranged lolOverall distance doesn't really factor into the definition for me due to how many ranged weapons have different range's.. some short, some long but all ranged imo.

I would only classify LB as a support weapon in the sense of ranged dps or damage pressure.. many may probably argue that classification doesn't have a place in Gw2 but I would say it does in just about any MMO..Ranged players might not have the damage of a melee dps character but combined with those melee guys thay can put down a lot of damage and pressure since as long as they are left alone they rarely if ever need to heal, dodge or stop attacking to back off etc which gives them a much higher dps uptime more often than most/all melee builds.This is the basic relationship of the Ranger and Pet combo as well, pet takes the aggro, Ranger supports the pet.. the old Bearbow tactic for example.Beastmastery traits contribute to this design as well with boon sharing etc.

I played through the game right along side friends who streamed their experience and I could see how much they relied on my spirits boon spam after it was taken away.They started getting downed a lot more in content they'd previously had no problems with because they were no longer getting all that regen and protection I used to supply them with but no longer can on this class anymore.I never used the spirits in solo content so to be honest I cannot tell how much this could be impactful. Back then I did prefer to use a build based on first strike. Apparently some people used spirits in open world also to tank damage. I never saw it but some complained on the forum after they added the degen.

I'm no expert builder but i've more experience with making builds than most of my friends so typically they just run whatever gives them the most damage lolUsually that means they have squishy builds so having a regular spam of regen, protect and might really helped keep them alive back in the day while they typically just dived into combat and smashed everything lol

For personal solo play I used spirits to buff myself and randoms but also as aggro magnets for soloing content.. likewise I also used them for breaking CC bars which is something a LB Ranger is pretty bad at since they generally don't have much Ranged CC.. Point Blank Shot being the main and that skill is hated by many lol

Loosing my old spirit build though I now use Necro to play support but it's not the same experience.I can't help stop my friends getting downed by giving them protection and regen but I can at least get them up quickly and provide some decent healing.

[InsaneQR.7412]

@""anduriell.6280"

Well when I meant projectile I thought of something like staff 3 on druid. A wisp like, well telegraphed, traveling AoE that cannot be reflected. And on impact it buffs allies in the area.

[anduriell.6280]

@InsaneQR.7412 said:@""anduriell.6280"

Well when I meant projectile I thought of something like staff 3 on druid. A wisp like, well telegraphed, traveling AoE that cannot be reflected. And on impact it buffs allies in the area.You think you do want that but you really dont. We already have bad experiences with slow projectiles in game, let's not repeat the same mistakes.

Astral Wisp works because is a homming projectile, in that case is ok to be slow. If you use no homming projectile (like a ranged AoE) it would not hit anything becasue it is too slow. Do you remember the issues DH had with the projectile speed of the longbow? Or ranger when you could just avoid the hit strafing? Even Deflecting Shot was speed up because the old speed wasn't good enough. And its function benefits from slow speed!You got Spiders if you want to test a similar mechanic by yourself. Try using them in beastmode and see how many players you hit with the poison cloud.

In this case the projectile speed should be same as the gunflame projectile. Fast enough to hit targets but still have the chance to be avoided/dodged.The wisp already is ( or should be ) visible enough with the bright bolt of light (in the color of the spirit if you may) so it would look similar (not the same) to the projectile from Gunflame. After all you are releasing the spirit, my guess they would be rushing towards that.

IMO a better design and mechanic is to have it behave like a normal projectile and thus have a nice speed into it. And then have traits to enhance the actives and whatnot.

[InsaneQR.7412]

@""anduriell.6280" well the comparison to Astral wisp is rather the style I meant. The speed of the projectile should be fast enough to hit reliably. Evade reactions should be possible but I don't want blockable/deflectable projectiles for spirits.Rather a visual tell before the AoE strikes for counterplayability.

[One Kiss Away.9180]

Since the Spirits are now stationary and can be summered to where you move to by rehitting the skill, there should be a trait, like the Ritaulist had, that would heal the spirits for a certain amount allowing them to live longer and have better AOE range.You can't really compare them to the warriors banners inability to me moved, cause as you pick them up their recharge skill accelerates.

[scerevisiae.1972]

I thought they sucked when they first came out, and they still suck now.

They're just so... poorly thought through. When is a WVW player ever going to use spirits?

For them to have any use at all to me they would need to be immune to damage & healing, such that their lifetime was solely determined by base degen rate and frequency of active skill use.

eg: base degen = 8% health/sec == ~12.5sec uptime, active use = 25% health per active use with 5sec CD between active uses. GM trait halves these costs. Larger radius of effect should be baseline.

[Idhayan Thomas.2697]

imagine water spirit in pvp...kill the spirit and u r done...ur main heal skill is just gone....spirits have no place in pvp