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The Mesmers Balance around "Infinit Horizon" in PvP


Fleckzeck.4673

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@BadMed.3846 said:The planned nerfs are what we need!

hey, glad you are back.we missed your expertise on this topic. since you know more then us due to your high ranking, can you share with the rest what else needs to be done?

I'm not here to offer my expertise. Someone expressed their opinion and I'm entitled to have my own. I'm sure you've got issues with that but I'm not here to address your issues either. I support the proposed nerfs.

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@"Stand The Wall.6987" said:whats the matter? dodging to do loads of damage is great gameplay!

I prefer auto-ing 2 to 3 k or pop 4k minimum with every weapon skill like other direct damage class than to do a 2 sec delay 3k condi on evade if I have to choose.But I understand than "'load of damage" perception can differ between class.

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@viquing.8254 said:

@"Stand The Wall.6987" said:whats the matter? dodging to do loads of damage is great gameplay!

I prefer auto-ing 2 to 3 k or pop 4k minimum with every weapon skill like other direct damage class than to do a 2 sec delay 3k condi on evade if I have to choose.But I understand than "'load of damage" perception can differ between class.

throws gs 3 at warrior, critical hit! 908 damage.warrior throws axe, critical hit! 5670 damage.Internal sceam!

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At first this post seemed normal.

But then suddenly:

@"Fleckzeck.4673" said:

  • Give "Infinit Horizon" an ICD of 20 sec in PvP+WvW only
  • "Infinit Horizon" only activates if you have 1+ clones in PvE and 2+ clones in PvP+WvW

20 seconds ICD for a trait. My fights against mirages don't last 20 seconds my dude... someone has to disengage/dies by then.Given how IH is the sole thing that keeps mirage from being renegade tier trash, only suggesting the smitersbooning of IH and nothing else would remove this spec from PvP(giving extra confusion to F2 will hardly compensate a 66% damage-potential nerf).

So... no. IH is overpowered and dumb, but this is not the way.

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@bravan.3876 said:

So... no. IH is overpowered and dumb, but this is not the way.

Tfw you write 1000000 sentences to explain why it is not IH that is op and dumb but only the design of some condi ambsuhes and then you still read this... me meet the wall again... bloody head i welcome you

Were you high writing this? If there is point in there somewhere, it's covered by many many layers of... something.

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@Bazsi.2734 said:Given how IH is the sole thing that keeps mirage from being renegade tier trashSo... no. IH is overpowered and dumb, but this is not the waySomething that non mesmer players understand but never devs of their own game... they balance ambushes like IH is a baseline for the mirage, oh ye, 50% dmg and cd nerfs as usual, minus cd this time. The most dumb decisions is what they are good at apparently

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@Bazsi.2734 said:

So... no. IH is overpowered and dumb, but this is not the way.

Tfw you write 1000000 sentences to explain why it is not IH that is op and dumb but only the design of some condi ambsuhes and then you still read this... me meet the wall again... bloody head i welcome you

Were you high writing this? If there is point in there somewhere, it's covered by many many layers of... something.

I am always high but even more important: i am higher

sry

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The main problems with Infinite Horizon are:

  1. The other Grand Masters are not worth taking.
  2. Condition Damage Shatter traits were nerfed to the point of pushing mirage players into Deceptive Evasion Playstyles.
  3. Clones spawned by Infinite Horizon spawn automatically doing their ambush attacks.
  4. Staff clone ambushes did not have the 50% reduced damage output you see on the scepter and axe clone ambushes.
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@praqtos.9035 said:

@"Bazsi.2734" said:Given how IH is the sole thing that keeps mirage from being renegade tier trash
So... no. IH is overpowered and dumb, but this is not the way
Something that non mesmer players understand but never devs of their own game... they balance ambushes like IH is a baseline for the mirage, oh ye, 50% dmg and cd nerfs as usual, minus cd this time. The most dumb decisions is what they are good at apparently

When the 50% nerfs "as usual" make minimal difference then it's surely time for the next 50% nerfs. It shows how ridiculously broken the spec is. Good mirage players are still facerolling with this spec and it needs to stop. IH needs the nerf!

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Mirage is still the preferred class for most bots. For a good reason. At an even skill level, even bronze tier, they're over performing. Ridiculous amounts of bleed and torment, combined with confusion and some burns and then finally endless ability to disengage only to return and unload it all over again.

Talking about higher tier, I've even seen a twitch streamers faceroll with one shot mirage builds. Even they have way more sustain compared to other high damage specs.

Get over your lame personal attacks and accept the simple fact. Mirage is "still" facerolling in game and is horrible for the game. Tune it down considerably to let everyone enjoy. As much as I complain about Mirage, I don't compain about any other classes. Sure other specs are also over-performing and deserve nerfs too. But Mirage is UTTERLY BROKEN and EzyMode Troll Spec!

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I don't think anyone is really struggling against a Mirage using Infinite Horizon in general anymore unless they're very new to the game. It's just Chaos Vortex really, and with this Anet should just reduce the clone condition output by 50% as they already have with sceptre and axe clones. Chaos Vortex is pretty easy to side-step and has a super obvious cast with a duration of 1 second - which is longer than the Mirage Cloak that must be expended in order to use the skill.

I do think IH would benefit greatly from being baseline though as it feels as thematically relevant to the specialisation as Mirage Cloak itself. Would certainly make balancing the damage output of ambush attacks a lot easier.

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@"BadMed.3846" said:Mirage is still the preferred class for most bots. For a good reason. At an even skill level, even bronze tier, they're over performing. Ridiculous amounts of bleed and torment, combined with confusion and some burns and then finally endless ability to disengage only to return and unload it all over again.

Talking about higher tier, I've even seen a twitch streamers faceroll with one shot mirage builds. Even they have way more sustain compared to other high damage specs.

Get over your lame personal attacks and accept the simple fact. Mirage is "still" facerolling in game and is horrible for the game. Tune it down considerably to let everyone enjoy. As much as I complain about Mirage, I don't compain about any other classes. Sure other specs are also over-performing and deserve nerfs too. But Mirage is UTTERLY BROKEN and EzyMode Troll Spec!

sorry mate but you are in silver, what happens in silver should stay in silver.the higher you go, the better you get, the more you will realize that its not mirage thats busted. its holo.when I +1 people its the warrior that has a chance of winning 1v2, not mirage. mirage dodges,invulns. teleports once or twice and then flops dead.its warrior that can burst you down in 1,5s if you make a mistake.Most people dont get that this game is not about 1v1, every time you pick a build, you need to ask yourself what is your job, what do you bring to the team, towards what wincondition do you play.Condi mirage just autowins against some builds and it pisses people off, I get it, its easy to play and it shits on some builds. On the other side of the coin lies the fact that some other builds shit on condi mirage too. Personal feelings clouds judgment.The upcoming nerf to staff ambush is a step in the right direction, wrong reason as always. It sucks to be nerfed by 50% yet again, but the game will be better for it so ill take it in a good stride.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"BadMed.3846" said:Mirage is still the preferred class for most bots. For a good reason. At an even skill level, even bronze tier, they're over performing. Ridiculous amounts of bleed and torment, combined with confusion and some burns and then finally endless ability to disengage only to return and unload it all over again.

Talking about higher tier, I've even seen a twitch streamers faceroll with one shot mirage builds. Even they have way more sustain compared to other high damage specs.

Get over your lame personal attacks and accept the simple fact. Mirage is "still" facerolling in game and is horrible for the game. Tune it down considerably to let everyone enjoy. As much as I complain about Mirage, I don't compain about any other classes. Sure other specs are also over-performing and deserve nerfs too. But Mirage is UTTERLY BROKEN and EzyMode Troll Spec!

sorry mate but you are in silver, what happens in silver should stay in silver.the higher you go, the better you get, the more you will realize that its not mirage thats busted. its holo.when I +1 people its the warrior that has a chance of winning 1v2, not mirage. mirage dodges,invulns. teleports once or twice and then flops dead.its warrior that can burst you down in 1,5s if you make a mistake.Most people dont get that this game is not about 1v1, every time you pick a build, you need to ask yourself what is your job, what do you bring to the team, towards what wincondition do you play.Condi mirage just autowins against some builds and it pisses people off, I get it, its easy to play and it kitten on some builds. On the other side of the coin lies the fact that some other builds kitten on condi mirage too. Personal feelings clouds judgment.The upcoming nerf to staff ambush is a step in the right direction, wrong reason as always. It sucks to be nerfed by 50% yet again, but the game will be better for it so ill take it in a good stride.

I'm not really in silver. But I'm not claiming to be an elite pro either. Sure I even go bronze with decay, but that doesn't matter. It doesn't bother me so it shouldn't bother you either. What happens in silver actually matters way more than what happens in plat and silver players significantly outnumber plat players. Your vision is narrow and I don't think you get it. If you play in gold at all, you'll notice plenty of bots in gold 1 and 2 running Condi mirage and maintaining 50% win loss ratio. That says a lot!

Don't take my hate for mirage in the wrong way. My point is simply that is a pointless brainead build that gets severely exploited at the hands of good players. If you understand the state of the game, often gold players face plat and above players at odd hours of the day. So what stays in gold doesn't often stay in gold only. I suggest you look at the fact of the broken spec and PvP population at the same time to understand how it is breaking the game.

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@Flandre.2870 said:Core mesmer keeps getting hit because Arenanet REFUSES to adress THE REAL ISSUE WITH MIRAGEwhich is Infinite Horizon.If the trait simply got DELETED, all the core mesmer nerfs (15 patches or so) could have been reverted.But the philosophy of arenanet is to make the calss easy and braindead and not require skill anymore.This is also why they've gutted portal.

+1

IH is for condi mes the same as chronophantasma is for phantasms.both needs to be deleted and forgotten

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@BadMed.3846 said:

@BadMed.3846 said:Mirage is still the preferred class for most bots. For a good reason. At an even skill level, even bronze tier, they're over performing. Ridiculous amounts of bleed and torment, combined with confusion and some burns and then finally endless ability to disengage only to return and unload it all over again.

Talking about higher tier, I've even seen a twitch streamers faceroll with one shot mirage builds. Even they have way more sustain compared to other high damage specs.

Get over your lame personal attacks and accept the simple fact. Mirage is "still" facerolling in game and is horrible for the game. Tune it down considerably to let everyone enjoy. As much as I complain about Mirage, I don't compain about any other classes. Sure other specs are also over-performing and deserve nerfs too. But Mirage is UTTERLY BROKEN and EzyMode Troll Spec!

sorry mate but you are in silver, what happens in silver should stay in silver.the higher you go, the better you get, the more you will realize that its not mirage thats busted. its holo.when I +1 people its the warrior that has a chance of winning 1v2, not mirage. mirage dodges,invulns. teleports once or twice and then flops dead.its warrior that can burst you down in 1,5s if you make a mistake.Most people dont get that this game is not about 1v1, every time you pick a build, you need to ask yourself what is your job, what do you bring to the team, towards what wincondition do you play.Condi mirage just autowins against some builds and it pisses people off, I get it, its easy to play and it kitten on some builds. On the other side of the coin lies the fact that some other builds kitten on condi mirage too. Personal feelings clouds judgment.The upcoming nerf to staff ambush is a step in the right direction, wrong reason as always. It sucks to be nerfed by 50% yet again, but the game will be better for it so ill take it in a good stride.

I'm not really in silver. But I'm not claiming to be an elite pro either. Sure I even go bronze with decay, but that doesn't matter. It doesn't bother me so it shouldn't bother you either. What happens in silver actually matters way more than what happens in plat and silver players significantly outnumber plat players. Your vision is narrow and I don't think you get it. If you play in gold at all, you'll notice plenty of bots in gold 1 and 2 running Condi mirage and maintaining 50% win loss ratio. That says a lot!

Don't take my hate for mirage in the wrong way. My point is simply that is a pointless brainead build that gets severely exploited at the hands of good players. If you understand the state of the game, often gold players face plat and above players at odd hours of the day. So what stays in gold doesn't often stay in gold only. I suggest you look at the fact of the broken spec and PvP population at the same time to understand how it is breaking the game.

I get it, I really do. But making mirage unplayable is not the right way. TBH mirage doesnt offer anything special for skilled players. Nerf them to the ground and they will get replaced with other braindead spec, mb even worse. Have you played against 1shot core mes? if not be happy that you didnt, shit is more disgusting, condi thief, staffstaff thief. planty of classes for no skill.The way the game is set up bots sooner or later will have 50% winrate, played against couple of them in plat games, they just walk in, spam dodges, then f4, then they die.Very simple to deal with.

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@Flandre.2870 said:Core mesmer keeps getting hit because Arenanet REFUSES to adress THE REAL ISSUE WITH MIRAGEwhich is Infinite Horizon.If the trait simply got DELETED, all the core mesmer nerfs (15 patches or so) could have been reverted.But the philosophy of arenanet is to make the calss easy and braindead and not require skill anymore.This is also why they've gutted portal.

The main problems with Infinite Horizon are:

  1. The other Grand Masters are not worth taking.
  2. Condition Damage Shatter traits were nerfed to the point of pushing mirage players into Deceptive Evasion Playstyles.
  3. Clones spawned by Infinite Horizon spawn automatically doing their ambush attacks.
  4. Staff clone ambushes did not have the 50% reduced damage output you see on the scepter and axe clone ambushes.

Calculating with realistic stats

Infinite Horizon will turn the Scepter ambush from a 2,000 damage attack into a 4,000 damage attack at 3 clones. On Axe Infinite Horizon will turn a 4,000 damage attack into a 6,800 damage attack at three clones. That's not exactly breaking the bank for maintaining 3 clones.

Infinite Horizon will turn Chaos Vortex from 4,000 damage attack into a 16,000 damage attack with 3 clones.

The problem is Chaos Vortex as an outlier in terms of clone damage and Infinite Horizon's interaction with Deceptive Evasion turning all dodges into potential damage rather than making dodges extra rewarding if you've previously set up enough clones like shatters are.

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@Flandre.2870 said:Core mesmer keeps getting hit because Arenanet REFUSES to adress THE REAL ISSUE WITH MIRAGEwhich is Infinite Horizon.If the trait simply got DELETED, all the core mesmer nerfs (15 patches or so) could have been reverted.But the philosophy of arenanet is to make the calss easy and braindead and not require skill anymore.This is also why they've gutted portal.

Actually it's more than they nerf every other active gameplay so we have only choice to play passive than the opposite.I mean if they start by nerfing IH it didn't matter because at mirage beginning, people didn't use it and gameplay was about shatter condi burst.Now they nerf what people whine the more about :1) EM2) shatter2,5) portal because mesmer had a spot.3) ambush.Now people are whininh about IH and mirage cloak.I'm pretty sure PU will get some love too.

Now If tomorrow you delete IH, how did you do something ? Mean you can allready try it by taking dune cloak. I'm not sure it will work good. (And they will never revert 15 patch nerf...)

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@viquing.8254 said:

@BadMed.3846 said:brainead build that gets severely exploited at the hands of good players.Which good players ?Who are currently the goods players ?

Shorts Gaming for one, look him up on Twitch. Recently was playing One Shot mirage in ranked and doing well. The problem is that Mesmer and all its elites were meant to be hard to play and master. Builds like Condi Mirage made it accessible to everyone and super easy to succeed in lower tiers and it still provides high reward for extremely low risk and effort. I only named one good player but I'm sure there are plenty others and they're doing just fine and will keep doing so.

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@BadMed.3846 said:

@BadMed.3846 said:brainead build that gets severely exploited at the hands of good players.Which good players ?Who are currently the goods players ?

Shorts Gaming for one, look him up on Twitch. Recently was playing One Shot mirage in ranked and doing well. The problem is that Mesmer and all its elites were meant to be hard to play and master. Builds like Condi Mirage made it accessible to everyone and super easy to succeed in lower tiers and it still provides high reward for extremely low risk and effort. I only named one good player but I'm sure there are plenty others and they're doing just fine and will keep doing so.

he can do well at almost any build, but im happy you mentioned him, since he says that other classes are easy compared to mesmer.he also thinks chrono is unplayable, and mirage without IH is unplayable.Mb you should actually watch him and pay attention? his recent stream ( from 1 or 2 days ago ) he played spb and reaper, and its funny watching how little effort he had to put in compared to mesmer to get the same/better result.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@BadMed.3846 said:brainead build that gets severely exploited at the hands of good players.Which good players ?Who are currently the goods players ?

Shorts Gaming for one, look him up on Twitch. Recently was playing One Shot mirage in ranked and doing well. The problem is that Mesmer and all its elites were meant to be hard to play and master. Builds like Condi Mirage made it accessible to everyone and super easy to succeed in lower tiers and it still provides high reward for extremely low risk and effort. I only named one good player but I'm sure there are plenty others and they're doing just fine and will keep doing so.

he can do well at almost any build, but im happy you mentioned him, since he says that other classes are easy compared to mesmer.he also thinks chrono is unplayable, and mirage without IH is unplayable.Mb you should actually watch him and pay attention? his recent stream ( from 1 or 2 days ago ) he played spb and reaper, and its funny watching how little effort he had to put in compared to mesmer to get the same/better result.

The highest Shorts ever got on the Leader board was #5 maining Spellbreaker a few seasons back.

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