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Upcoming Changes to Fall Damage and Revival


Robert Gee.9246

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@Alukah.2063 said:Fall damage traits aren't needed, but they were an option to reduce risks while doing certain tasks. Why remove the option if it's doing no harm to keep it?Having additional risk is fine. This game needs it tbh. Outright removing it is change for the sake of change. This is why I'm in favor of making FDR tagged Combat Only, and if needed, migrate this property to a trait that might make more sense as part of a regular build. Examples, the FDR on Grenadier ought to be moved to Short Fuse or Mecha Legs, and from Peak Performance to Brave Stride (or leave PP as is). Sometimes mergers just make more sense to me.

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Why didn't you change Toss Elixir R?We did not originally plan to modify Toss Elixir R as we considered it fairly strong due to its 5 target cap and 170% total revive amount. With that said, we took another look at it and decided to make a few changes since there we felt that it being stopped by projectile destruction/reflection was too punishing for its recharge.

This skill is only used in PvP as gimmick, we engi don't use it in any game mode ; Maybe you could buff a little bit elixir R ? Giving it some buffs (Prot, removing conditions ?)Even with this change on reflection, it will still not be used.

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@ZDragon.3046 said:

@"flog.3485" said:Good changes overall.As for the loss of fall damage traits, why not not make it part of some banner, utility or even food ?

This is not a bad idea either along with people who said possibly make a mastery i think a food or utility idea could work too.

That would be unnecessarily over-complicating it rather than leaving the traits as it was. Even if this is a post glider/mount era, not everyone has either/both of those. Anet, if you are going to remove those falling traits in this "post glider/mount" time, why don't you make glider/mounts available to everyone then? Yeah? If we are going down the nonsensical path, why don't we also go down this one.

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@DemonSeed.3528 said:

@"flog.3485" said:Good changes overall.As for the loss of fall damage traits, why not not make it part of some banner, utility or even food ?

This is not a bad idea either along with people who said possibly make a mastery i think a food or utility idea could work too.

That would be unnecessarily over-complicating it rather than leaving the traits as it was. Even if this is a post glider/mount era, not everyone has either/both of those. Anet, if you are going to remove those falling traits in this "post glider/mount" time, why don't you make glider/mounts available to everyone then? Yeah? If we are going down the nonsensical path, why don't we also go down this one.

Well ill start with the end of your statement first about it being nonsensical. Its really might not be because we dont know what they are planning to do with season 5. Secondly most of the areas people are complaining about are areas where you cant use gliders and mounts which means your idea of giving gliders and mounts to everyone solves nothing for these locations.

For the majority gliders or mounts are available ideally unless you are free to play then im not sure what to say.I mean rare combat situations where you want to take those traits for fall damage reduction might be a bit niche (maybe wvw and a few rare spots in general pve but i cant say ive ever need to stop what i was doing to take that fall damage reduction traits.) and jumping puzzles as other people have pointed out can just be done the correct way they were indented to be done without the need of such traits.

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@"ZDragon.3046" said:

Its really might not be because we dont know what they are planning to do with season 5.Can't really imagine them doing something in a season exclusively for a trait. Especially falling damage.

I mean rare combat situations where you want to take those traits for fall damage reduction might be a bit niche (maybe wvwIn WvW (depnding on how you play) there are many scenarios of which I use this. It's especially helpful when I'm trying to get away from being ganked, or if I'm fighting outnumbered (whether on purpose or not). I also use it for the fields, and also to drop on siege while defending towers. It's one of many tactics to use to lure people away as a distraction and making them commit to you from whatever they were doing. I'd understand the people that never used it to not see it's usefulness, but it is definitely far from useless or "over-complicating" trait descriptions as it was put.

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@Robert Gee.9246 said:Thanks for the feedback everyone. I've been following this thread and I wanted to respond to a some comments that have come up a few times:

Stronger reses are not desired in PvP.We are looking at competitive splits for some of these changes but they haven't been finalized yet.

Fall damage reduction is important in WvW.We hear you that fall damage reduction and gauging whether a fall will kill you is something that is considered regularly as a part of WvW. However we would like to see how the WvW meta adjusts before making additional changes.

I need falling damage reduction for some jumping puzzles.Right now we think the only one that really needs it is Griffonrook Run because it integrates fall damage into the critical path (the red eggs restore health for this reason). We'll be adding fall damage reduction into the bomb buff as a result. We don't think this necessary for the other jumping puzzles at the moment but are open to adding it as the need arises.

Can you kill yourself with Signet of Undeath's active?No. Health is a resource similar to Initiative or Adrenaline. The skill will simply be greyed out and uncastable if you don't have the required health cost.

Medic's Feedback might be too strong.We are a little worried about it but not any more than the other revival changes.

Stalwart Courage (Courageous Return) is definitely too strong.Talked this one over with Cal and we're going to split the protection duration in PvP/WvW to 1 second. We considered an ICD for this trait, but think it's more interesting without it so we will only add one if this split proves insufficient to balance it.

Why didn't you change Toss Elixir R?We did not originally plan to modify Toss Elixir R as we considered it fairly strong due to its 5 target cap and 170% total revive amount. With that said, we took another look at it and decided to make a few changes since there we felt that it being stopped by projectile destruction/reflection was too punishing for its recharge.

  • Toss Elixir R: This skill no longer removes 1 condition when thrown. Increased projectile speed by 25%. The projectile thrown by this skill is now unblockable. Fixed an issue where the land and water versions of this skill moved at different speeds.

Yeah I meant Griffonrook Run I was a bit in a hurry then . I tried it it once for the Skyscale achievement in the end it was one of 3 which I didn't completed basically every guide said take a fall dmg trait . In terms of difficulty it is at least in the top10 of the Jumping Puzzles despite what anyone might say about it. I might at that you possible don't want the bomb and go straight for the skyscale I don't know how this works out with the changes.

About the fall dmg traits no build I know takes those in any other circumstances because the secondary effect is/was to weak or sitting even traitlines which nobody use.

About revival traits I can only say the higher you get inside the tiers inside of the endcontent the rarer you will see anybody get rezzed. This is true for all endcontent pvp you have oneshot builds and the camping on downed , in wvw you are instead dead because of stacking aoes the exception is maybe roaming but then the same is true like in pvp and in PvE you have often instead dead mechanic when you fail it => raids / and fractals cm 100 or you are so good you don't get even downed once.

So for any good player those changes have no impact whatsoever but on the other hand is looks a bit like change for the sake of changes to tell the truth.

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@reapex.8546 said:

@Dante.1508 said:Why? what is the point in all of this? Why not focus on actual balance issues like druids and chronomancers..

I don't see anything wrong with druids after all the nerfs.

The fact no one uses them outside of raids and maybe fractals says different.

People use them in WvW too.

In the time i've played WvW i've not seen any.

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Bad changes. While I like the new additional effect for engineer the fall damage reduction trait was nice - when still playing without mounts and gliders. (I'm just about to finish the remaining achievements from LS2 then only buying the expansions and starting to play them in order ... by unlocking gliders first.) Also - as mentioned - some JPs don't allow gliders/mounts.

I don't see how the trait description is too complicated (there are tons of other traits with lots of stuff in the description especially if there is more than 1 skill that gets buffed by a trait) ... seems only like a way to get people to buy (and play) the expansions earlier. Or to make the JPS harder. (Then again you'd need to disable mesmer portals there as well.)

Food suggestion someone brought up seems nice though. The point with "fall damage reduction was the main reaseon to use that trait" seems valid and now other traits get more relevant maybe. Food you could just use in a JP and then switch back to some other food if you need it for fighting or other stuff.

I just hope they won't remove the movement speed increase as well - to get people to use mounts and the underwater infusions instead. (Would be the next logic step - since it acts similar and the traits get mainly choosen because of that.)

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Sorry, but I like having the fall damage traits. I don't want to lose them.

Nor do I want them in a Mastery. Due to Mastery Points being locked behind content I don't enjoy, I've still got Central Kryta masteries I've yet to complete. Putting it in a mastery would likely put it out of my grasp.

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@"flog.3485" said:Well you can’t argue that fall damage traits are taking up space that could be allocated to improve combat balance.

If we're taking about "taking space" and "combat balance" there's quite a bit of places to remove all those passives/condi/boon/etc that would definitely improve combat balance. As I see it, falling dmg has a place and shouldn't be removed -look at it more as a utility. The game gives you a lot of utilities, do you use them all at the same time? No. You choose when you need to use them, but that doesn't mean they are useless just because someone chooses not to use it. It may be garbage to someone who only goes for dps, but in the right hands that other person will be able to beat the dps guy when used right. I'd say they need to think about removing other stuff in trait lines that affect meta directly, and falling damage is not one of them. They should leave it be.

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@"Robert Gee.9246" said:Can you kill yourself with Signet of Undeath's active?No. Health is a resource similar to Initiative or Adrenaline. The skill will simply be greyed out and uncastable if you don't have the required health cost.

Can you explain why the Necro is the only class that has many skills and traits that when triggered can damage or apply a ton of conditions on the necro itself? How is this, in any way, a fair design? I can honestly design a build that, when I cast skills, the necro can pretty much commit suicide without ever having been damaged by an NPC or another player. Is this actually "by design"?

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If the dev's are bent on removing fall damage from selectable traits, may i suggest that you tag the fall damage reduction to the minor trait instead? That way, everyone who takes that traitline has access to FDR and they still get to make a meaningful choice about their selectable traits. Either that, or remove falling damage from the game or reduce falling damage to 50% hp (or whatever number) upon impact, no matter how far you fall. Beyond that, none of the proposed changes make much sense to me as no-one was complaining about the issues they're supposed to fix.

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@Vegeta.2563 said:

@"Robert Gee.9246" said:
I need falling damage reduction for some jumping puzzles.
Right now we think the only one that really needs it is Griffonrook Run because it integrates fall damage into the critical path (the red eggs restore health for this reason). We'll be adding fall damage reduction into the bomb buff as a result. We don't think this necessary for the other jumping puzzles at the moment but are open to adding it as the need arises.

I think you missed another..

^ Start at 7:18

I've done this jp hundreds of times and with every single profession that the game offer. It's tight but you don't need the fall damage reduction trait in this jp (it would have bothered me to change my builds just for this easy jp). You'd show a video of the etherlame jp, I'd kind of agree with you since this jp is a massive unforgivable pain but silverwaste jp have plenty of savepoints and absolutely don't need you to reduce your fall damage.

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Yeah I'm against this crap as well I mean I can come up with a ton of things in this game that have no use in wvw or are so poorly underpowered but its more along the lines of you haven't lost enough players yet so go doing some remarkably more unproductive than others doing changes. The only thing I could understand is if the griffon, skyscale, or some new mount is coming to wvw. Otherwise things like the falling buff on the desert borderland cannot be used as an attack or strategy because there is no way to tell if its contested as well as it has no tier system. Which one thing I've said before is give it a tier system and make towers give it a shield so the tower has to flip before the shrine can be flipped. So if the tower owner flips the shrine first its shielded until as mentioned above. That just just in relation to the air keeps shrine ability to damage players when you hit the ground but you have to be super super high up for it work effectively on top of all that.

Overall though if you want to go rework something devs go rework kalla so it can be used in wvw like any class in any meta or off meta builds you never use all of one skill type and I know it works for herald but herald has useful mechanics that cannot be run over by 50+ people and instantly die. Plus if I see an ele I don't even have any doubt that they are a free kill. SO the smarter and more productive thing to do is fix things that need fixing. I mean I know many guilds their inside joke already is dying to cliffs but apparently that isn't enough you want wvw to be primarily dying to cliffs more than dying to other players. I still think they are trying to self sabotage themselves its like patch after patch of useless crap.

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@misterman.1530 said:

@"Robert Gee.9246" said:
Can you kill yourself with Signet of Undeath's active?
No. Health is a resource similar to Initiative or Adrenaline. The skill will simply be greyed out and uncastable if you don't have the required health cost.

Can you explain why the Necro is the only class that has many skills and traits that when triggered can damage or apply a ton of conditions on the necro itself? How is this, in any way, a fair design? I can honestly design a build that, when I cast skills, the necro can pretty much commit suicide without ever having been damaged by an NPC or another player. Is this actually "by design"?

Don't fight this aspect of it! I want to pay life for skills! I just want those skills to have an extremely strong pay off for doing so! I want the necromancer to have traits that are influenced by life sacrifice! I want this to be meaningful. At the moment it seems strange because necromancer is a mechanics graveyard...

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@Lily.1935 said:

@"Robert Gee.9246" said:
Can you kill yourself with Signet of Undeath's active?
No. Health is a resource similar to Initiative or Adrenaline. The skill will simply be greyed out and uncastable if you don't have the required health cost.

Can you explain why the Necro is the only class that has many skills and traits that when triggered can damage or apply a ton of conditions on the necro itself? How is this, in any way, a fair design? I can honestly design a build that, when I cast skills, the necro can pretty much commit suicide without ever having been damaged by an NPC or another player. Is this actually "by design"?

Don't fight this aspect of it! I want to pay life for skills! I just want those skills to have an extremely strong pay off for doing so! I want the necromancer to have traits that are influenced by life sacrifice! I want this to be meaningful. At the moment it seems strange because necromancer is a mechanics graveyard...

Sorry. I don't understand why you would want "...to have traits that are influenced by life sacrifice". Role-playing? What pay off? In WvW, all that does is kill you faster.Or are you saying the payoff should be higher for that sacrifice and you want a rework?

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@Lily.1935 said:

@"Robert Gee.9246" said:
Can you kill yourself with Signet of Undeath's active?
No. Health is a resource similar to Initiative or Adrenaline. The skill will simply be greyed out and uncastable if you don't have the required health cost.

Can you explain why the Necro is the only class that has many skills and traits that when triggered can damage or apply a ton of conditions on the necro itself? How is this, in any way, a fair design? I can honestly design a build that, when I cast skills, the necro can pretty much commit suicide without ever having been damaged by an NPC or another player. Is this actually "by design"?

Don't fight this aspect of it! I want to pay life for skills! I just want those skills to have an extremely strong pay off for doing so! I want the necromancer to have traits that are influenced by life sacrifice! I want this to be meaningful. At the moment it seems strange because necromancer is a mechanics graveyard...

I think thats my issue though the balance of pay off and cost is not really balanced properly.Maybe if this was 2016 sure... but in the current of 2019 the cost/risk is always mad high while the pay off is subpar or moderate at best.

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