Rez potential & Mesmer to get a better function gyro than scrapper - Bring back quickness stomps

[Ruufio.1496]

So mesmers' feedback bubble is going to get a buff to revive allies by 5% per pulse. Mesmer also has mimic and chronomancer also has rewind. This will be even even more overpowered than merciful intervention. And other insane revive skills are being buffed as well - such as the elementalist glyph which is getting a lower cooldown and cast time.

All of this is a mistake.

In top tier gameplay with top tier builds and players who stay stacked tight together and move as one, it is already impossible to kill one of their players. My guild that averages 5-10 players in a squad frequently runs into situations like this where we are able to down a player but cannot kill anyone because the revive potential is too strong - so we end up leaving the fight or not engaging with these groups again and hopping maps instead.

Why was quickness stomping ever even removed? Really - why? Who was whining about it? Revives has been receiving nothing but buffs (warbanner, necro teleport revive, ranger teleport revive) Where is our ability to stomp anyone? Warclaw??? That is a joke and warclaw skill 1 should not stomp - it should only do damage.

You need to not do these revive buffs and need to instead bring back quickness stomps. Cleaving downed bodies is already very deadly. Quickness stomps just allow you to actually kill people and add flavour. (You also need to do something with function gyro because it is useless in everything except outnumbering an opponent X to 1. Could possibly make it a ranged, channeled stomp)

[Ayrilana.1396]

Did you notice the trade offs?

[Ruufio.1496]

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Did you notice the trade offs?

Glyph of Renewal: Reduced recharge to 90 seconds in all game modes. Lowered cast time from 3.25 seconds to 2 seconds.No trade off - just buffs.

Signet of Mercy: Reduced recharge to 90 seconds in all game modes. Changed passive effect from granting 180 healing power (216 when traited) to granting 120 concentration (150 when traited).No trade off - just buffs.

Lesser Shield of Absorption now heals nearby allies when it ends. This trait now causes all versions of Shield of Absorption to revive allies by 15% when it detonates.Straight buffs. Boons on revive do not matter whatsoever. This is 30% revive potential now.

Medic's Feedback: This trait no longer increases revival speed. It now causes Feedback to revive allies inside it by 5% per second.Straight buffs. Can have feedback on utility and use it 3 times for a total of 4 feedbacks on a chronomancer. With a base duration of 6s, that's a total revive potential of 6x5x4=120% revive. It is also AOE. 120x5=600% total revive potential. This is way more than function gyro.

There are no trade offs. These are straight buffs to revival - because why? You already cannot kill players in high level gameplay.

These buffs should NOT happen. Revives are already too strong and have reached the point of spam. We do however need quickness stomps back to combat the current overpowered cleave and revival skils.

[Mini Crinny.6190]

@Ruufio.1496 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Did you notice the trade offs?

Glyph of Renewal: Reduced recharge to 90 seconds in all game modes. Lowered cast time from 3.25 seconds to 2 seconds.No trade off - just buffs.

Glyph of renewal was already 90 seconds in WvW and maybe PvP, the 165 second CD was a bit ridiculous to have anyway so it may be more useful in PvE, the cast time going down from 3.25 to 2 seconds is nice but not amazing.

[alain.1659]

There is a trade off. No revive speed. And still mesmer would actively res someone unlike a gyro. Gyro area, res speed and freedom it gives are uncomparable to any other res skill in the game in my opinion. So you have nothing to worry about.

But these revive traits getting buffed might be both good and bad. Those skills, ele for example, are rarely used. So buffing them a little might cause a shake in the meta. I think it is too early to comment

[Ruufio.1496]

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:

@Ruufio.1496 said:

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:Did you notice the trade offs?

Glyph of Renewal: Reduced recharge to 90 seconds in all game modes. Lowered cast time from 3.25 seconds to 2 seconds.No trade off - just buffs.

Glyph of renewal was already 90 seconds in WvW and maybe PvP, the 165 second CD was a bit ridiculous to have anyway so it may be more useful in PvE, the cast time going down from 3.25 to 2 seconds is nice but not amazing.

2s with quickness becomes 1s and groups at high level and crafted meta-comps will have quickness. This isn't really about the glyph - this is about powercreep to revival which isn't even necessary because revival is already too strong. It's securing the kill that is too hard to do. (Merciful intervention, warbanner, illusion of life, necro blood teleport, ranger shout teleport, etc.)

I'm talking high level group play / GvG here, not zerg vs zerg. You already almost impossibly cannot secure a kill in these fights.

The devs are going about revival the wrong way. What is the counter to any of those revival abilities? There isn't any. A 1s cast time 100% revive vs a prolonged, on your knees and vulnerable revive? That is way too strong. A better change in the example of the elementalist glyph would be to instead make it a single target revive that acts the same way pressing "F" does but it instead does it at 900 range.

That could work for the scrappers function gyro as well - making it a 900 range (or whatever range) channel that acts the same way pressing "F" does. The reason function gyro is so bad is because they are afraid of making it too strong. If it couldn't die - it would be the most overpowered thing in the game - that's why it's trash, because it has to be. A channeled revive/stomp at range would make so much more sense, be actually balanced with counterplay and be actually useful.

[Mini Crinny.6190]

@Ruufio.1496 said:

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:

@Ruufio.1496 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Did you notice the trade offs?

Glyph of Renewal: Reduced recharge to 90 seconds in all game modes. Lowered cast time from 3.25 seconds to 2 seconds.No trade off - just buffs.

Glyph of renewal was already 90 seconds in WvW and maybe PvP, the 165 second CD was a bit ridiculous to have anyway so it may be more useful in PvE, the cast time going down from 3.25 to 2 seconds is nice but not amazing.

2s with quickness becomes 1s and groups at high level and crafted meta-comps will have quickness. This isn't really about the glyph - this is about powercreep to revival which isn't even necessary because revival is already too strong. It's securing the kill that is too hard to do. (Merciful intervention, warbanner, illusion of life, necro blood teleport, ranger shout teleport, etc.)

I'm talking high level group play / GvG here, not zerg vs zerg. You already almost impossibly cannot secure a kill in these fights.

You don't see many Warbanners around, even in GvGs they use Bubble instead since it's better.. Necro blood teleport is something i haven't seen in a while tbh and rangers in wvw? the only one that should be changed from that is MI.. everything else is fine imo

[subversiontwo.7501]

@"Ruufio.1496" said:That could work for the scrappers function gyro as well - making it a 900 range (or whatever range) channel that acts the same way pressing "F" does. The reason function gyro is so bad is because they are afraid of making it too strong. If it couldn't die - it would be the most overpowered thing in the game - that's why it's trash, because it has to be. A channeled revive/stomp at range would make so much more sense, be actually balanced with counterplay and be actually useful.That's actually a pretty good idea. A functionality partly similar to the Druid glyph.

[Ruufio.1496]

@subversiontwo.7501 said:

@"Ruufio.1496" said:That could work for the scrappers function gyro as well - making it a 900 range (or whatever range) channel that acts the same way pressing "F" does. The reason function gyro is so bad is because they are afraid of making it too strong. If it couldn't die - it would be the most overpowered thing in the game - that's why it's trash, because it has to be. A channeled revive/stomp at range would make so much more sense, be actually balanced with counterplay and be actually useful.That's actually a pretty good idea. A functionality partly similar to the Druid glyph.

I have ignored druid for so long I actually forgot that Glyph of the Stars existed. But yes - exactly. Something similar to that.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

I still think they should put in a thing that if you get downed twice in 60s you instadie the second time, skipping downed state. That would reward focus fire while also allowing for more powerful revive skills.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:I still think they should put in a thing that if you get downed twice in 60s you instadie the second time, skipping downed state. That would reward focus fire while also allowing for more powerful revive skills.This is the basic idea of the downed state penalty but yeah it doesnt really work in WvW because its not harsh enough. The most hilarious moments in GW2 combat is when you can dominate an enemy that keeps getting revived, but since it takes a while to kill them the downed penalties begin to expire during the fight.

And its also the reason why I always become... annoyed... when people go on their crusade to remove downed state, a core functionality of GW2 combat and what makes it uniquely GW2. Downed state needs tuning, not removal, and the penalty is definetly one of the problematic areas (and I still think we should have 1:1 ressing to stop power res, which would incidently increase the value of res skills).

[Ruufio.1496]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:I still think they should put in a thing that if you get downed twice in 60s you instadie the second time, skipping downed state. That would reward focus fire while also allowing for more powerful revive skills.This is the basic idea of the downed state penalty but yeah it doesnt really work in WvW because its not harsh enough. The most hilarious moments in GW2 combat is when you can dominate an enemy that keeps getting revived, but since it takes a while to kill them the downed penalties begin to expire during the fight.

And its also the reason why I always become... annoyed... when people go on their crusade to remove downed state, a core functionality of GW2 combat and what makes it uniquely GW2. Downed state needs tuning, not removal, and the penalty is definetly one of the problematic areas (and I still think we should have 1:1 ressing to stop power res, which would incidently increase the value of res skills).

Agreed.

"Downed penaltySuccessive downed states weaken a character further. Each downed state inflicts one point of downed penalty, reducing downed health by 25% per point. Downed penalty lasts for one minute and stacks by intensity. Holding four points of downed penalty (100% health loss) will instantly defeat a player. "

The duration of downed penalty needs to last like 5 minutes and the duration should be reset when downed again.I can't see any reason why it shouldn't be like that.

And in the case of SPvP...Notes:Downed penalty is disabled in PvP maps.

Why????????

[DemonSeed.3528]

I recall in the last year or two when there were posts commenting on people power/insta ressing etc but it got drowned out by other stuff. I don't mind it as I've learnt to deal with things over time. I do want to play with it now since it will be buffed, getting some nasty ideas but I shall have to wait and see. Changes, whether we like them or not, we have to show anet what they've done in all its glory :o hehe

In other news... C'mon anet, let us banner lord again XD

[thepenmonster.3621]

Elite gryo should either be a rez or a hard CC. That is all.

[L A T I O N.8923]

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:I still think they should put in a thing that if you get downed twice in 60s you instadie the second time, skipping downed state. That would reward focus fire while also allowing for more powerful revive skills.This is the basic idea of the downed state penalty but yeah it doesnt really work in WvW because its not harsh enough. The most hilarious moments in GW2 combat is when you can dominate an enemy that keeps getting revived, but since it takes a while to kill them the downed penalties begin to expire during the fight.

And its also the reason why I always become... annoyed... when people go on their crusade to remove downed state, a core functionality of GW2 combat and what makes it uniquely GW2. Downed state needs tuning, not removal, and the penalty is definetly one of the problematic areas (and I still think we should have 1:1 ressing to stop power res, which would incidently increase the value of res skills).

I partially agree...certain skills like ji shouldnt heal as much if IT triggers the revive percentage, Just like well of blood(or lesser i dunno, one of the 2 did)

Either nerve these skills to the ground and keep power rezzing. Since that's communication, or nerve powerrezzing and Just remove the double reviving potential of these skills

Getting someone instantly up with(for example) JI is Just stupid. Down state asks for communication and coordination

[Cristalyan.5728]

@Ruufio.1496 said:

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:Did you notice the trade offs?

Medic's Feedback: This trait no longer increases revival speed. It now causes Feedback to revive allies inside it by 5% per second.Straight buffs. Can have feedback on utility and use it 3 times for a total of 4 feedbacks on a chronomancer. With a base duration of 6s, that's a total revive potential of 6x5x4=120% revive. It is also AOE. 120x5=600% total revive potential. This is way more than function gyro.

I won't comment all the other babbling in this post. Only this. But I have some questions for our "all knowing" poster":

• Do you usually play a Chronomancer in WvW?
• How useful is for you the Inspiration trait line after the removal of the Illusionary Persona?
• How many times you have enough clones up in an "end game" (I mean an almost finished zerg battle)? When your zerg is in the situation to have lot of dead players?
• Do you know how long it takes to stay (almost) in the same place to cast 3 Feedbacks (on the same area) and then to go and to press F to resurrect a player in the same area?
• Note: If your squad has so heavy causality to have 5 dead players in the area covered by the Feedback, then you should not stay to try to resurrect. Run away - if you can.

Please go and play a Chronomancer in a zerg in WvW. I bet you will find a large difference between it and the engineer you play now.OH! I think I found the reason of your rant: "This is way more than function gyro.". I understand you perfectly. A (theoretically possible) chain of 4 skills is better than a one key press skill. OUTRAGEOUS !

Please, don't worry. You will find very few Chronos in WvW. And most of them have no Inspiration trait line - because .... well, you won't understand, no matter how much I will try to explain. And because of the fact that WvW is a battlefield and not a Golem Test Lab, as a Chrono you will never have the time to cast 4 times the Feedback.

Relax, your gyro is still better.

[Jakkun.4561]

Feedback won't make Chrono viable in WvW. Function Gyro is straight up better for on demand SS and safe hand rez.

MI, as instant, and Geyser, for hand rez, will still be the best revival skills for WvW despite the changes.

If you guild can't kill other guilds that run these "busted" revival skills, it doesn't mean the skills are OP, it just means you're bad, because everyone run Firebrands with MI and Tempests with Geyser trait nowdays.

[Ruufio.1496]

@"Jakkun.4561" said:Feedback won't make Chrono viable in WvW. Function Gyro is straight up better for on demand SS and safe hand rez.

MI, as instant, and Geyser, for hand rez, will still be the best revival skills for WvW despite the changes.

If you guild can't kill other guilds that run these "busted" revival skills, it doesn't mean the skills are OP, it just means you're bad, because everyone run Firebrands with MI and Tempests with Geyser trait nowdays.

You are just proving my point that revival skills are overpowered. Revival has been receiving nothing but powercreep over the years and securing the kill has gotten nothing but nerfs for some reason (removal of quickness stomps) even though there is a vocal playerbase that wants downstate removed entirely. And again the downed health loss duration needs to be more like 5 minutes - not 1 minute.

You think feedback won't "make chrono viable"......... at this current time.

Also, saying that function gyro is good at all means you haven't played with it. It doesn't do anything in a fight except get 1 tick of a revive off before being destroyed.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

@"Jakkun.4561" said:Feedback won't make Chrono viable in WvW. Function Gyro is straight up better for on demand SS and safe hand rez.

MI, as instant, and Geyser, for hand rez, will still be the best revival skills for WvW despite the changes.

If you guild can't kill other guilds that run these "busted" revival skills, it doesn't mean the skills are OP, it just means you're bad, because everyone run Firebrands with MI and Tempests with Geyser trait nowdays.

Wait what? Everybody running these skills is proof that they aren't OP? What kind of logic is that? If anything, it proves the opposite. People can MI a downed and rez them before the downed invuln frame is even up. It IS a busted skill and absolutely deserves to be nerfed. Signet of Mercy has a 2 second cast time, a 90 second cooldown, 300 less range, and has a very relevant counterplay of being invalidated by knocking away the downed target. Even more, there is the counterplay of being able to focus and interrupt the FB once they start cast signet. That is how a rez skill should work. MI is still even used in sPvP because the skill is actually solid even with a majorly nerfed rez functionality (albeit a bit difficult to properly land if uncoordinated).

Double geyser is overpowered as well, but Tempest's overall kit is less powerful than Firebrand so it isn't as glaringly egregious. Function Gyro is trash right now because of how easily it dies. It easily has the potential to become busted if it gets overtuned, but right now, it is a sad excuse of a class mechanic. Imagine having your class mechanic invalidated by a couple auto attacks.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

I want to find the proposed mesmer who's running chronomancer, mimic, feedback, and medic's feedback just so I can stomp them for using a bad build.

Personally I don't see the big deal. All of these rez changes are, at best, side-grades or trivial. The reason why we don't run many rez skills in WvW is because it's the worst way to protect someone. Priority 1 is keeping teammates alive via healing, control effects, and active defenses. Priority 2 is killing the enemy as fast as possible so your teammates can rally. Taking up utility and trait slots for things that don't actively help me win the fight is not a good idea. It is because of this that I don't see any of these rez skills anywhere in WvW.

[Jakkun.4561]

@"Pterikdactyl.7630" said:

Wait what? Everybody running these skills is proof that they aren't OP? What kind of logic is that? If anything, it proves the opposite. People can MI a downed and rez them before the downed invuln frame is even up. It IS a busted skill and absolutely deserves to be nerfed. Signet of Mercy has a 2 second cast time, a 90 second cooldown, 300 less range, and has a very relevant counterplay of being invalidated by knocking away the downed target. Even more, there is the counterplay of being able to focus and interrupt the FB once they start cast signet. That is how a rez skill should work. MI is still even used in sPvP because the skill is actually solid even with a majorly nerfed rez functionality (albeit a bit difficult to properly land if uncoordinated).

Double geyser is overpowered as well, but Tempest's overall kit is less powerful than Firebrand so it isn't as glaringly egregious. Function Gyro is trash right now because of how easily it dies. It easily has the potential to become busted if it gets overtuned, but right now, it is a sad excuse of a class mechanic. Imagine having your class mechanic invalidated by a couple auto attacks.

Let me clarify. The fact that both groups run similar meta stuff, only shows that, if one can kill the other and the other can't, it's about skill level and execution. In the end, it's not related to whether skill they choose, because they all run the same things.

Also as you said, MI ''CAN'' instanly rez people. And its well balanced around that. If you take longer than the invulnerable frame to MI the downed body, it will start to get cleaved/get Poison, so your MI will be uneffective. You also to have be constantly aware to MI and recognize you can't MI sometimes. You can easily distinguish a good from a meh Firebrand in WvW by his MI usage, because they all press SYG regardless.

We aren't in HoT anymore, people don't run Hammer to knockback people from hand rez or signet radius. Only build that has a skill which does that is herald with glint elite. The downed cleave is very high, uncoordinated hand rez is very risky and any cast revival skill that takes longer than IoL is unoptimal. Don't expect people to preemptively pre-cast signet, or interrupt the signet (maybe in smallscale or GvG) like they do in PvP, there's way more things to worry about. Let me tell you, if they nerf the hell out of MI, people are just going to stack more FBs, because no one is slotting these new revival skills (maybe Feedback, but mesmer is dead so)

Function Gyro is used for on demand superspeed and field blast now, it is what it is.

[Ruufio.1496]

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:I want to find the proposed mesmer who's running chronomancer, mimic, feedback, and medic's feedback just so I can stomp them for using a bad build.

Personally I don't see the big deal. All of these rez changes are, at best, side-grades or trivial. The reason why we don't run many rez skills in WvW is because it's the worst way to protect someone. Priority 1 is keeping teammates alive via healing, control effects, and active defenses. Priority 2 is killing the enemy as fast as possible so your teammates can rally. Taking up utility and trait slots for things that don't actively help me win the fight is not a good idea. It is because of this that I don't see any of these rez skills anywhere in WvW.

Except that feedback does help you win a fight - it reflects projectiles and grants AOE chaos armor with just 1 blast. I think similarly as well for utility skills such as throw elixir R, where it doesn't help/do anything during a fight - but feedback actually does.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

@Ruufio.1496 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:I want to find the proposed mesmer who's running chronomancer, mimic, feedback, and medic's feedback just so I can stomp them for using a bad build.

Personally I don't see the big deal. All of these rez changes are, at best, side-grades or trivial. The reason why we don't run many rez skills in WvW is because it's the worst way to protect someone. Priority 1 is keeping teammates alive via healing, control effects, and active defenses. Priority 2 is killing the enemy as fast as possible so your teammates can rally. Taking up utility and trait slots for things that don't actively help me win the fight is not a good idea. It is because of this that I don't see any of these rez skills anywhere in WvW.

Except that feedback

does

help you win a fight - it reflects projectiles and grants AOE chaos armor with just 1 blast. I think similarly as well for utility skills such as throw elixir R, where it doesn't help/do anything during a fight - but feedback actually does.

O.K. Now, let me tell you how it really works. Mesmers need to use Blink and Decoy if they want any chance at staying alive, leaving at most one utility slot. They can't run a feedback turbo medic build, because otherwise they'd die from a lack of defenses. Mesmers do not have the fortitude to win in an outright scrap, so they have to use hit and run tactics in order to do damage and survive. Enemy players deal with chaos armor by simply ignoring it, and any mesmer who specifically leaps/blasts their feedback field for chaos armor hasn't learned how inconsequential it is. Likewise, enemy players have 3 ways they deal with feedback:

1: They ignore it because they're using a melee weapon, and they just walk right past it.2: They ignore it because the WvW zerg/group meta is about non-projectile ranged attacks. Firebrands carry reflects without sacrificing anything, so every player plays around it.3: They swap from their ranged weapon to their melee weapon, and proceed to follow step 1. For goodness sakes, man. You're playing engineer. You should know this.

Chronomancers have vanished from WvW, because they don't have Illusory Persona anymore. They can't use continuum split (or, anything, for that matter) without first establishing a bunch of clones, which they have to do by using their utilities and fighting the enemy. There isn't going to be a triple feedback, which is what would be necessary to rez a player. Finally, Mesmers have a far superior revival skill at their disposal: Illusion of Life. It works without trait investment, in an AoE, instantaneously, at any health percentage. It only works for 15 seconds, but unless you're all running tank builds that's how long the fight lasts. Mesmers have had this skill since launch, too, and they don't have to run a stupid build to use it.

You're complaining about a side grade. Mesmers are not better for these changes, Engineers are not worse for these changes, nothing has really changed. The only reason why anyone would run any revival skill is because they don't have a better option to go in to.