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Potential Future Balance Changes - PvP


Cal Cohen.2358

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@ZDragon.3046 said:

It's fun to see that @ZDragon.3046 carefully avoid answering each time we talk about data and factuals things.Like I have maybe 4 to 5 arguments on my lasts posts that he totally ignored because you know when you cry about mesmer, you are abviously right to whine.Your arguments are almost if not more pointless than his.At least he is looking at the skills and how they work which is factual and more realistic than just looking at numbers. I already talked with you about numbers and now you are just attempting to harass through passive aggressive taunt post with me tagged in them.I told you like weeks ago i was mostly done conversing with you.And I told you I will be here each time you cry with no data behind.because you want me to provide you with numbers that effectively show nothing and do not add to the conversation.Nop, numbers show something but it's against your whine so ofc you bypass them. And yeah I want you to justify your arguments.On top of this you have already generated your own "version" of these numbers if i post anything different you are just going to tell me im wrong and you are right there for i dont see the point in answering your "arguments" You keep asking for "factual data" and "numbers" as if those things are finite to happen that way in every combat situation which is not the case. There is no way for me to truely fact check your data even more so in the case of how rng mesmer can be especially with a weapon like staff. > Your data would be ideally just as useless as mine and while posting number looks nice for the sake of argument in most case numbers of every single point of damage being done leads to nothing.I don't post my own version, I post the in game version while even inflate them so they look even more op than they are in practise.I dont need data to see how other people feel about how the match ups go between staff mirage and various other professions.I dont need data to know my experince between fighting an axe mirage and a passive evasive staff mirage.Yeah you don't need arguments to whine I already see this.And ofc you experience is the way to go about what to nerf or not.There are pages of post here and in many other places flooded with comments that are not mine that talk about how silly mirage is along with post of every other crazy class like holo and soul beast weaver etc etc. There is probably a reason those other people ignored your replies after a certain number too because the realize you are not someone they can converse with and there is effectively no point as you end every argument with "your words mean nothing because you provide no data and facts behind it even if they did provide one or the other."Other people didn't continue to troll for ages.So no i wont go back to answer your arguments because you want data that ideally means nothing or is totally unrelated or unreasonable to prove as factual data.Yeah is easier to cry than to look at number I understand.Ideally you are asking me to give you something that could be held with reasonable doubt so that you can say you are correct while telling me how im wrong. Im not going to waste my energy doing that or attempting to do that.If you know that why did you continue discussing about mesmer ?Can you stop passive aggressively tagging me in attempts to taunt me if you do it again i wont hesitate to flag your post just as people have flagged mine in the past when i got out of line.Then can you stop talking about mesmer while having no clue about it ? It's you who are just taunting me if you want my opinion.

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@Cal Cohen.2358 said:

  • Not enough holo nerfs

Especially with the lesser nerf to agility, we agree that holo needs a bit more in this update. We’re looking at additional defensive reductions. Holo damage is certainly high, but we want to mostly leave that damage potential in the short-term, while adding more opportunity to counterpressure as a way of mitigating that damage. The new changes are included at the end of the post.

  • What about doing [any number of other suggestions]?

There are more changes that make sense to do. There are concerns about some builds that aren’t being hit. There are questions about whether these changes are the right changes.

These changes are all very focused on fixing problems in the short-term. Ideally we wouldn’t splash into other builds, but in some cases it’s bound to happen. We wanted to create a small set of high-impact changes to improve things while we work toward bigger goals. The alternative was to just not do any balance until the future update is ready, but we felt that we could address some problems so we’re going to take the opportunity. If other big problems appear following this update, we still have the ability to make small adjustments outside of the usual balance cadence as needed.

Updates to the previous list:

  • Sigil of Agility: Reduced quickness duration from 2 seconds to 1 second
  • Photon Wall: Increased cooldown from 35 seconds to 45 seconds in PvP only
  • Heat Therapy: Reduced heal per stack from 65 to 49 (-25%) in PvP only

We still have a bit more time to iterate, but at this point we’re primarily looking for feedback on the holo changes.

The heat therapy nerf is fine, the resustain of holo while not pressured but still in fight is too high atm. I am strongly against the Photon Wall nerf though, because it is the only skill that allows holo to keep pressuring while having some kind of protection. All the other lifesavers take you out of the game completely (Elixir S and Toss Elixir S). That already makes a very poor matchup against (Strength) Spellbreaker, who does 2k+ damage with every dodges and has multiple evade frames on offensive skills with very low cooldown (GS 3, Bull's Charge, Full Counter), combined with an absurd level of might stacking and damage modifiers, of which he will get yet another passive one with the change on fall damage traits. Rev workes similarly, Sword 3 combined with Impossible Odds, does huge damage while completely immune, Staff 5 is a CC with some dps while immune and there are several instant casts and passive procs that still hit while blocking, dodging or otherwise being immune. Mirage also works the same way with Distortion and Ambush tying major condition pressure to dodges. The lack of these kind of mechanics has always been the major downside of Holo, even though most people forget that when they complain about its damage, CC and resustain.

Essentially holo becomes stronger when coordination is poor and focus not constant, because in these kind of situations the ability to disengage relatively safely and resustain quickly becomes very effective. When pressure is constant and target focus is being kept up, like it is the case in more high lvl and organized settings, holo already has some disadvantages against builds that have both high mobility and the ability to cover their damage with immunity frames.

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@Hot Boy.7138 said:I just wanted to add that Mesmer's greatsword #2 skill, Mirror Blade, should not be Unblockable. It's going to be unblockable, remove it's ability to bounce. It shouldn't be able to bounce and by unblockable.

Yeah like thief SD, like necro CC, like war FC and F1, like ele CCs, like rev on demande + on legend swap like etc etc.I will not list all the unblocable effect on every class who have some impact but I doubt mesmer is the most efficient talking about unblocable thing.Like mesmer shouldn't have 1 unblocage who didn't even CC in an environnement where literraly everyone have this with better impact than a only damage skill with high animation who is useless as long as mesmer isn't fighting single target.I'm curious to know how you manage other class unblocable ?

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@viquing.8254 said:

@Hot Boy.7138 said:I just wanted to add that Mesmer's greatsword #2 skill, Mirror Blade, should not be Unblockable. It's going to be unblockable, remove it's ability to bounce. It shouldn't be able to bounce and by unblockable.

Yeah like thief SD, like necro CC, like war FC and F1, like ele CCs, like rev on demande + on legend swap like etc etc.I will not list all the unblocable effect on every class who have some impact but I doubt mesmer is the most efficient talking about unblocable thing.Like mesmer shouldn't have 1 unblocage who didn't even CC in an environnement where literraly everyone have this with better impact than a only damage skill with high animation who is useless as long as mesmer isn't fighting single target.I'm curious to know how you manage other class unblocable ?

I don't think it's an issue with other classes having unblockable skills. I can say specifically because I play mesmer that it does not need unblockable skills. It has nothing to do with other classes. I didn't even mention other classes. I'm saying that mesmer should not have unblockable skills. Especially one that bounces and is on such a short cd.

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@Hot Boy.7138 said:

@Hot Boy.7138 said:I just wanted to add that Mesmer's greatsword #2 skill, Mirror Blade, should not be Unblockable. It's going to be unblockable, remove it's ability to bounce. It shouldn't be able to bounce and by unblockable.

Yeah like thief SD, like necro CC, like war FC and F1, like ele CCs, like rev on demande + on legend swap like etc etc.I will not list all the unblocable effect on every class who have some impact but I doubt mesmer is the most efficient talking about unblocable thing.Like mesmer shouldn't have 1 unblocage who didn't even CC in an environnement where literraly everyone have this with better impact than a only damage skill with high animation who is useless as long as mesmer isn't fighting single target.I'm curious to know how you manage other class unblocable ?

I don't think it's an issue with other classes having unblockable skills. I can say specifically because I play mesmer that it does not need unblockable skills. It has nothing to do with other classes. I didn't even mention other classes. I'm saying that mesmer should not have unblockable skills. Especially one that bounces and is on such a short cd.

It needs to be unblockable because of how the mechanics for spawning the clone are. Other clone sources don't require hitting but because of spaghetti code Mirror Blade does. If Mirror Blade was changed to spawn a clone as soon as the throw attack becomes airborne then it can go down to being unblockable.

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@Hot Boy.7138 said:

@Hot Boy.7138 said:I just wanted to add that Mesmer's greatsword #2 skill, Mirror Blade, should not be Unblockable. It's going to be unblockable, remove it's ability to bounce. It shouldn't be able to bounce and by unblockable.

Yeah like thief SD, like necro CC, like war FC and F1, like ele CCs, like rev on demande + on legend swap like etc etc.I will not list all the unblocable effect on every class who have some impact but I doubt mesmer is the most efficient talking about unblocable thing.Like mesmer shouldn't have 1 unblocage who didn't even CC in an environnement where literraly everyone have this with better impact than a only damage skill with high animation who is useless as long as mesmer isn't fighting single target.I'm curious to know how you manage other class unblocable ?

I don't think it's an issue with other classes having unblockable skills. I can say specifically because I play mesmer that it does not need unblockable skills. It has nothing to do with other classes. I didn't even mention other classes. I'm saying that mesmer should not have unblockable skills. Especially one that bounces and is on such a short cd.

GS is a good antireflect weapon, ranged and not one ability is reflectable/blocked by domes, I suspect this is why its unblockable, BTW it doesnt offer enough impact to "save" it for when people block, its just there to not get screwed over by random dome from firebrand or other classes.The only time I would consider saving gs2 is for shield block warrior, to apply cripple through block with GS trait.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Hot Boy.7138 said:I just wanted to add that Mesmer's greatsword #2 skill, Mirror Blade, should not be Unblockable. It's going to be unblockable, remove it's ability to bounce. It shouldn't be able to bounce and by unblockable.

Yeah like thief SD, like necro CC, like war FC and F1, like ele CCs, like rev on demande + on legend swap like etc etc.I will not list all the unblocable effect on every class who have some impact but I doubt mesmer is the most efficient talking about unblocable thing.Like mesmer shouldn't have 1 unblocage who didn't even CC in an environnement where literraly everyone have this with better impact than a only damage skill with high animation who is useless as long as mesmer isn't fighting single target.I'm curious to know how you manage other class unblocable ?

I don't think it's an issue with other classes having unblockable skills. I can say specifically because I play mesmer that it does not need unblockable skills. It has nothing to do with other classes. I didn't even mention other classes. I'm saying that mesmer should not have unblockable skills. Especially one that bounces and is on such a short cd.

GS is a good antireflect weapon, ranged and not one ability is reflectable/blocked by domes, I suspect this is why its unblockable, BTW it doesnt offer enough impact to "save" it for when people block, its just there to not get screwed over by random dome from firebrand or other classes.The only time I would consider saving gs2 is for shield block warrior, to apply cripple through block with GS trait.

If it were purely utility and did little to no damage and only applied cripple to the target and might to the caster, i'd agree with you. But it's not purely utility. It does a lot and bounces. It should be a blockable skill.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Hot Boy.7138 said:I just wanted to add that Mesmer's greatsword #2 skill, Mirror Blade, should not be Unblockable. It's going to be unblockable, remove it's ability to bounce. It shouldn't be able to bounce and by unblockable.

Yeah like thief SD, like necro CC, like war FC and F1, like ele CCs, like rev on demande + on legend swap like etc etc.I will not list all the unblocable effect on every class who have some impact but I doubt mesmer is the most efficient talking about unblocable thing.Like mesmer shouldn't have 1 unblocage who didn't even CC in an environnement where literraly everyone have this with better impact than a only damage skill with high animation who is useless as long as mesmer isn't fighting single target.I'm curious to know how you manage other class unblocable ?

I don't think it's an issue with other classes having unblockable skills. I can say specifically because I play mesmer that it does not need unblockable skills. It has nothing to do with other classes. I didn't even mention other classes. I'm saying that mesmer should not have unblockable skills. Especially one that bounces and is on such a short cd.

It needs to be unblockable because of how the mechanics for spawning the clone are. Other clone sources don't require hitting but because of spaghetti code Mirror Blade does. If Mirror Blade was changed to spawn a clone as soon as the throw attack becomes airborne then it can go down to being unblockable.

Clone spam is too high as is. Being able to block the attack thus reducing damage, cripple, and might/extra clone for the caster should be a valid counter play to this skill. It should be blockable.

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@Hot Boy.7138 said:

@Hot Boy.7138 said:I just wanted to add that Mesmer's greatsword #2 skill, Mirror Blade, should not be Unblockable. It's going to be unblockable, remove it's ability to bounce. It shouldn't be able to bounce and by unblockable.

Yeah like thief SD, like necro CC, like war FC and F1, like ele CCs, like rev on demande + on legend swap like etc etc.I will not list all the unblocable effect on every class who have some impact but I doubt mesmer is the most efficient talking about unblocable thing.Like mesmer shouldn't have 1 unblocage who didn't even CC in an environnement where literraly everyone have this with better impact than a only damage skill with high animation who is useless as long as mesmer isn't fighting single target.I'm curious to know how you manage other class unblocable ?

I don't think it's an issue with other classes having unblockable skills. I can say specifically because I play mesmer that it does not need unblockable skills. It has nothing to do with other classes. I didn't even mention other classes. I'm saying that mesmer should not have unblockable skills. Especially one that bounces and is on such a short cd.

GS is a good antireflect weapon, ranged and not one ability is reflectable/blocked by domes, I suspect this is why its unblockable, BTW it doesnt offer enough impact to "save" it for when people block, its just there to not get screwed over by random dome from firebrand or other classes.The only time I would consider saving gs2 is for shield block warrior, to apply cripple through block with GS trait.

If it were purely utility and did little to no damage and only applied cripple to the target and might to the caster, i'd agree with you. But it's not purely utility. It does a lot and bounces. It should be a blockable skill.

my glass cannon, full damage sigils, and traits mesmer doesnt hit for more then 2k with it, so if all bounces land its 6k dmg.now immagine that you are playing power mirage, this shit hits for 500-1200, and it spreads on clones/pets and other things.it doesnt do much damage. Meanwhile dodge from war deals more, while unblockable. but its fine :)

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@Hot Boy.7138 said:

@Hot Boy.7138 said:I just wanted to add that Mesmer's greatsword #2 skill, Mirror Blade, should not be Unblockable. It's going to be unblockable, remove it's ability to bounce. It shouldn't be able to bounce and by unblockable.

Yeah like thief SD, like necro CC, like war FC and F1, like ele CCs, like rev on demande + on legend swap like etc etc.I will not list all the unblocable effect on every class who have some impact but I doubt mesmer is the most efficient talking about unblocable thing.Like mesmer shouldn't have 1 unblocage who didn't even CC in an environnement where literraly everyone have this with better impact than a only damage skill with high animation who is useless as long as mesmer isn't fighting single target.I'm curious to know how you manage other class unblocable ?

I don't think it's an issue with other classes having unblockable skills. I can say specifically because I play mesmer that it does not need unblockable skills. It has nothing to do with other classes. I didn't even mention other classes. I'm saying that mesmer should not have unblockable skills. Especially one that bounces and is on such a short cd.

It needs to be unblockable because of how the mechanics for spawning the clone are. Other clone sources don't require hitting but because of spaghetti code Mirror Blade does. If Mirror Blade was changed to spawn a clone as soon as the throw attack becomes airborne then it can go down to being unblockable.

Clone spam is too high as is. Being able to block the attack thus reducing damage, cripple, and might/extra clone for the caster should be a valid counter play to this skill. It should be blockable.

Clone spam is only too high on Staff, Scepter, and Deceptive Evasion. And most of that is being directly nerfed. Spawning clones should not be preventable. Stopping shatters through killing clones or avoiding the shatter should be.

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@Hot Boy.7138 said:

@Hot Boy.7138 said:I just wanted to add that Mesmer's greatsword #2 skill, Mirror Blade, should not be Unblockable. It's going to be unblockable, remove it's ability to bounce. It shouldn't be able to bounce and by unblockable.

Yeah like thief SD, like necro CC, like war FC and F1, like ele CCs, like rev on demande + on legend swap like etc etc.I will not list all the unblocable effect on every class who have some impact but I doubt mesmer is the most efficient talking about unblocable thing.Like mesmer shouldn't have 1 unblocage who didn't even CC in an environnement where literraly everyone have this with better impact than a only damage skill with high animation who is useless as long as mesmer isn't fighting single target.I'm curious to know how you manage other class unblocable ?

I don't think it's an issue with other classes having unblockable skills. I can say specifically because I play mesmer that it does not need unblockable skills. It has nothing to do with other classes. I didn't even mention other classes. I'm saying that mesmer should not have unblockable skills. Especially one that bounces and is on such a short cd.

Yeah me too I prefer to get spammed by a 3 to 5 k unblocable thief sword spam who remove boon and give evade than to a GS 2.

If it were purely utility and did little to no damage and only applied cripple to the target and might to the caster, i'd agree with you. But it's not purely utility. It does a lot and bounces. It should be a blockable skill.You know that bounce = the more target theres is, the less efficient it is hu ?

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@Hot Boy.7138 said:I just wanted to add that Mesmer's greatsword #2 skill, Mirror Blade, should not be Unblockable. It's going to be unblockable, remove it's ability to bounce. It shouldn't be able to bounce and by unblockable.

Its unblockable so that GS has a skill that can reliably generate a clone. I dont think that needs to change personally. GS for the most part is probably fine as it is i think

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@Asuran.5469 said:Maybe the power creep has a lot to do with + boon duration and how easily obtainable it is. There are tons of runes and traits now that grant large chunks of universal concentration stat for all boons the character is generating.

This +1 i agree this is where alot of it comes from but only in some cases.Some classes were already good with generating set boons and at one point there was talk about toning down boons and condi.Condi was toned down once and its already back out of control again on a few professions.

Boons if i recall were never toned down.Then we have a lot of traits now too that also cause might to generate more power per stack and alot more ferocity / condition damage too.

I do often wonder how the game would fare without amulets and runes and just letting the profession + weapons chosen dictate a players damage and play style. It probably wouldnt work hahah.

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@Hot Boy.7138 said:I just wanted to add that Mesmer's greatsword #2 skill, Mirror Blade, should not be Unblockable. It's going to be unblockable, remove it's ability to bounce. It shouldn't be able to bounce and by unblockable.

It's unblockable because if it was blockable it would be reflectable since it is a projectile, and since it generates a clone on hitting a foe, reflecting it would allow other classes to gain that clone which would be weird. It would have to be totally reworked or just left as unblockable which is fine, nothing wrong with having some counters to blocks.

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@Hot Boy.7138 said:

@viquing.8254 said:Or if we remove the ability to bounce, we can make it a 5k damage skill to be in pair with other unblocable, seems fine too....

it just needs not to be unblockable, that would be fair.

Ofc not it will not be fair lol. Did you just look at damage coefficient for a only damage skill ?Open wiki and look at number please.

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@viquing.8254 said:

@viquing.8254 said:Or if we remove the ability to bounce, we can make it a 5k damage skill to be in pair with other unblocable, seems fine too....

it just needs not to be unblockable, that would be fair.

Ofc not it will not be fair lol. Did you just look at damage coefficient for a only damage skill ?Open wiki and look at number please.

I'm perfectly aware, I've mained mesmer since beta.

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Devs should make changes so pvp isnt a condi garbage clown fiesta, condi weavers,mirages,scourges and burn guards just spam condi garbage on the nodes every conquest match. That's what condi wars 2 is now. And the roamers like thief, well u know their story with condi's. If the devs actually want players to consider gw2 pvp not garbage maybe make toning down condis like ur toning down rampage may be a good idea. Gw2 = spam whatever condi's ur specs running- clear condi that the opponent's are spamming than spam urs again than hope u have more clears for the condi's that are about to be instantly put back on u. Games more frustrating than fun at this point lol

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