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Upcoming Changes to Fall Damage and Revival


Robert Gee.9246

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@Lily.1935 said:

@"Robert Gee.9246" said:
Can you kill yourself with Signet of Undeath's active?
No. Health is a resource similar to Initiative or Adrenaline. The skill will simply be greyed out and uncastable if you don't have the required health cost.

Can you explain why the Necro is the only class that has many skills and traits that when triggered can damage or apply a ton of conditions on the necro itself? How is this, in any way, a fair design? I can honestly design a build that, when I cast skills, the necro can pretty much commit suicide without ever having been damaged by an NPC or another player. Is this actually "by design"?

Don't fight this aspect of it! I want to pay life for skills! I just want those skills to have an extremely strong pay off for doing so! I want the necromancer to have traits that are influenced by life sacrifice! I want this to be meaningful. At the moment it seems strange because necromancer is a mechanics graveyard...

What bother me most is that those "sacrifices" don't come with enough "power" to keep up or even outclass professions that don't sacrifice anything. All in all, the return on investment of all necromancer's skills that involve sacrifice is and have always been low.

The necromancers can self bleed, self poison... etc. Why is there no trait that make him deal more damage when he is affected by self-ailment? They intend to put a health cost on signet of undeath, they could at least add a nasty aoe fear for this sacrifice. I mean, the necromancer that will use SoU will sacrifice both it's sustain (4-6% LF every 3 seconds) and a chunk of it's health pool just to rally 1 player. It's like elementalist puting all it's attunment on an extra 2 second CD just to rally another player. Nobody in it's right mind would do that, it's not worth the cost. It's the same for all corruption skills, they have a nasty cost but in the end their power is average at best and even sometime weaker than what what other professions offer. You put condition on yourself, force yourself to take condi transfert and then sacrifice this condi transfert to maybe deal a tiny bit of damage and in the end, despite that you don't even compare to other profession in term of dps...

I personnally don't think that reducing the cast time is a good idea. Yes it's very interesting PvP wise but at the same time it end up outclassing the stomp ability. Which mean that it break the balance between revive and stomp. Ideally for those 2 ability to compete, they need the same cast time and the faster to react should "win" the contest. Here, the balance throw this balance to oblivion.

I know that they intend to balance these rallying ability separately in sPvP, but let's be real, nobody's gonna "sacrifice" an utility skill in PvE for a rallying skill. For the sake of being more efficient, such behavior will be "prohibited" in PvE.

The whole reasoning is flawed, and like you said Lilly, the necromancer end up being a "mechanism graveyard".

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@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"Robert Gee.9246" said:
Can you kill yourself with Signet of Undeath's active?
No. Health is a resource similar to Initiative or Adrenaline. The skill will simply be greyed out and uncastable if you don't have the required health cost.

Can you explain why the Necro is the only class that has many skills and traits that when triggered can damage or apply a ton of conditions on the necro itself? How is this, in any way, a fair design? I can honestly design a build that, when I cast skills, the necro can pretty much commit suicide without ever having been damaged by an NPC or another player. Is this actually "by design"?

Don't fight this aspect of it! I want to pay life for skills! I just want those skills to have an extremely strong pay off for doing so! I want the necromancer to have traits that are influenced by life sacrifice! I want this to be meaningful. At the moment it seems strange because necromancer is a mechanics graveyard...

What bother me most is that those "sacrifices" don't come with enough "power" to keep up or even outclass professions that don't sacrifice anything. All in all, the return on investment of all necromancer's skills that involve sacrifice is and have always been low.

The necromancers can self bleed, self poison... etc. Why is there no trait that make him deal more damage when he is affected by self-ailment? They intend to put a health cost on signet of undeath, they could at least add a nasty aoe fear for this sacrifice.

I like that fear idea. How about an unblockable one that can't be cleansed - so it has to run its course? Say 5 seconds or something.

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@Dante.1508 said:

@Dante.1508 said:Why? what is the point in all of this? Why not focus on actual balance issues like druids and chronomancers..

I don't see anything wrong with druids after all the nerfs.

The fact no one uses them outside of raids and maybe fractals says different.

People use them in WvW too.

In the time i've played WvW i've not seen any.

I use it and I see it used a lot, you might not of realized you'd seen it because its not something that has a huge tell.

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@Robert Gee.9246 said:Hey folks,

  • Signet of Undeath: Reduced recharge to 75 seconds in all game modes. Reduced cast time from 3 seconds to 1.5 seconds. Reduced number of allies revived from 3 to 1. Added additional health cost of 50% of base health to this skill. Increased passive lifeforce gain by 100%.

I understand that the lifeforce gain is a buff, but please keep in mind that these changes you're making to necros do not carry over well to the sPVP sphere, where less people die per instance and lf is not constantly topped off. It seems like these balance changes over the last few iterations geared toward necro presume that it constantly has a large HP pool to work with.

The fact that there is no way to reduce their recharge on spectral skills after a particular balancing instance, and the shaving of passive and active health and life force gain to power oriented reapers in particular makes necro play painful in smaller groups, especially groups where thieves are free to harass them if they are unaccompanied.

I don't want to presume, but all these balancing directions for necro are making it weaker and weaker in spvp. The only thing holding them in very baseline viability now is Rune of Speed as far as sPvP is concerned. Please pay careful attention to how necros perform in a less volatile environment and make sure they can spec to survive on their own should they be attacked 1v1 or in a small group, where they will invariably be focused.

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Will we ever get out of open Alpha testing? Why are these changes constantly happening, if the skills were fine to go live with? This is what I mean by open Alpha testing. You make changes to skills/traits once thought to be acceptable. This is NOT balance, this is throwing darts and hoping for the best. Seriously, this is driving players away. They have lost faith in the devs ability to create a stable game. My only conclusion as to why this is happening is your testing is flawed or far too short. Enough already. Removing fall damage from Mesmers... you might as well drop Chronomancer and tell everyone "Get good at jump puzzles cause Mesmers have walked away from the game. Sorry you aren't co-ordinated enough, there is always chutes and ladders. Oh, you're disabled, wow that's too bad, we can't help you. Best of luck to you".

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The "meta" won't adjust any to the fall damage changes to WvW. I have no idea what that even means. The builds that use these traits are not "meta", they are very niche, but people still use them. The whole comment reeks of a non-answer to me, kinda like "no one here even thought anyone would use those, we're changing it and that's final" but they just won't want to say it outright.

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@Le Gros Georges.2984 said:

I need falling damage reduction for some jumping puzzles.
Right now we think the only one that really needs it is Griffonrook Run because it integrates fall damage into the critical path (the red eggs restore health for this reason). We'll be adding fall damage reduction into the bomb buff as a result. We don't think this necessary for the other jumping puzzles at the moment but are open to adding it as the need arises.

Hello. Would you consider adding it to the Not So Secret jumping puzzle as well? This is already one of the least forgiving JP in the game, and while it's not necessarily a game changer for the people climbing, it's very valuable to the people making portals for those who struggle to reach the chest, or worse, the diving goggles. In other words, keeping fall damage reduction in this JP would mostly help those who help others.

I understand you can probably use that last sentence to make a case for any jumping puzzle, but other hard jumping puzzles usually have some mechanic to alleviate the difficulty, like NPCs that will rez you when you fall, checkpoints, or an easy way to restart. The Not So Secret JP has none, and this is the only reason why I think you should make an exception for it.There's also the Dark Reverie - dying there, if there's noone around to ress you, for most players means giving up on the JP on that day. And yes, to the lesser degree this can be found in many other JPs as well.

Basically, when considering the effect of fall damage reduction on players in JPs, devs need to consider not only players that do the JP correctly, but also those that make mistakes. At this point, it seems the latter have been completely ignored.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

I need falling damage reduction for some jumping puzzles.
Right now we think the only one that really needs it is Griffonrook Run because it integrates fall damage into the critical path (the red eggs restore health for this reason). We'll be adding fall damage reduction into the bomb buff as a result. We don't think this necessary for the other jumping puzzles at the moment but are open to adding it as the need arises.

Hello. Would you consider adding it to the Not So Secret jumping puzzle as well? This is already one of the least forgiving JP in the game, and while it's not necessarily a game changer for the people climbing, it's very valuable to the people making portals for those who struggle to reach the chest, or worse, the diving goggles. In other words, keeping fall damage reduction in this JP would mostly help those who help others.

I understand you can probably use that last sentence to make a case for any jumping puzzle, but other hard jumping puzzles usually have some mechanic to alleviate the difficulty, like NPCs that will rez you when you fall, checkpoints, or an easy way to restart. The Not So Secret JP has none, and this is the only reason why I think you should make an exception for it.There's also the Dark Reverie - dying there, if there's noone around to ress you, for most players means giving up on the JP on that day. And yes, to the lesser degree this can be found in many other JPs as well.

Basically, when considering the effect of fall damage reduction on players in JPs, devs need to consider not only players that do the JP correctly, but also those that make mistakes. At this point, it seems the latter have been completely ignored.

I became a Mesmer to help those unable to complete jump puzzles, specifically a friends husband that cannot use both hands due to his health issues. Many cannot complete things due to infimities. I wanted to help them, there is no need to out them or make them feel left out. Mesmers perform a service to all that need it. Without fall protection our porting will be severely ruined. Before so many changes drove players away, I led a guild of over 400 mesmers. We were proud of our rep. One of our members even asked Gaile if porting was cheating on jump puzzles. She replied that she had asked the devs and they replied no, it wasn't. They had created porting as a way of helping the community, and did so knowingly. Now.. the changes proposed just make me realize, this is no longer our 2nd home, it's just a game, and we're no longer welcome. I came back after a long break, wanting to rebuild our guild. Now.. I just feel sad. To any and all reading this, please give this post a thumbs up if you agree. If you are a Mesmer, or have been helped by us, please speak up.

Founder, Tyrian Mystical Tours. [PORT]

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@"Robert Gee.9246" said:Necromancer

  • Terrifying Descent: This trait has been reworked. It has been renamed to "Insidious Disruption". It now causes control effects to inflict torment on foes.

People have been focusing on your Signet of Undeath rework, but I fear this is being overlooked. WHICH control effects? Just hard CC or would soft CC count? Outside of Reaper there are not that many hard CCs available to Necro outside of fear, which this trait already covered. Warhorn has daze, and torch and Flesh Golem have knockdown.

If it does include soft CC like immobilize, cripple, and chill, then expect massive stacks of torment unless there is an ICD.

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@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@"Robert Gee.9246" said:
Necromancer
  • Terrifying Descent: This trait has been reworked. It has been renamed to "Insidious Disruption". It now causes control effects to inflict torment on foes.

People have been focusing on your Signet of Undeath rework, but I fear this is being overlooked.
WHICH
control effects? Just hard CC or would soft CC count? Outside of Reaper there are not that many hard CCs available to Necro outside of fear, which this trait already covered. Warhorn has daze, and torch and Flesh Golem have knockdown.

If it does include soft CC like immobilize, cripple, and chill, then expect massive stacks of torment unless there is an ICD.

good questionBetter question why is this not just a lesser utility why is it nor merged with our "on heal" trait like many other professions have. Why is both this trait and Spiteful Renewal outliers when you look at the current other professions "on fall damage or on heal" style traits

Im all for something more active than just triggering passive utilities but considering fears are high in cd and condi reaper is not really a thing and its the only other spec that provides additional CC thats not just fear im concerned that it wont be an effective trait option at all. It will be almost as un used as it was before while options 2 and 3 are still better choices both defensively and offensively for core, reaper, and scourge in general

I mean ideally its probably gonna be the same as it was before not nearly as effective if its only really looking at fear you might get a few extra procs if you run warhorn or golem or something but still 3 seconds of torment aint saying much.

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@Evon Skyfyre.9673 said:

I need falling damage reduction for some jumping puzzles.
Right now we think the only one that really needs it is Griffonrook Run because it integrates fall damage into the critical path (the red eggs restore health for this reason). We'll be adding fall damage reduction into the bomb buff as a result. We don't think this necessary for the other jumping puzzles at the moment but are open to adding it as the need arises.

Hello. Would you consider adding it to the Not So Secret jumping puzzle as well? This is already one of the least forgiving JP in the game, and while it's not necessarily a game changer for the people climbing, it's very valuable to the people making portals for those who struggle to reach the chest, or worse, the diving goggles. In other words, keeping fall damage reduction in this JP would mostly help those who help others.

I understand you can probably use that last sentence to make a case for any jumping puzzle, but other hard jumping puzzles usually have some mechanic to alleviate the difficulty, like NPCs that will rez you when you fall, checkpoints, or an easy way to restart. The Not So Secret JP has none, and this is the only reason why I think you should make an exception for it.There's also the Dark Reverie - dying there, if there's noone around to ress you, for most players means giving up on the JP on that day. And yes, to the lesser degree this can be found in many other JPs as well.

Basically, when considering the effect of fall damage reduction on players in JPs, devs need to consider not only players that do the JP correctly, but also those that make mistakes. At this point, it seems the latter have been completely ignored.

I became a Mesmer to help those unable to complete jump puzzles, specifically a friends husband that cannot use both hands due to his health issues. Many cannot complete things due to infimities. I wanted to help them, there is no need to out them or make them feel left out. Mesmers perform a service to all that need it. Without fall protection our porting will be severely ruined. Before so many changes drove players away, I led a guild of over 400 mesmers. We were proud of our rep. One of our members even asked Gaile if porting was cheating on jump puzzles. She replied that she had asked the devs and they replied no, it wasn't. They had created porting as a way of helping the community, and did so knowingly. Now.. the changes proposed just make me realize, this is no longer our 2nd home, it's just a game, and we're no longer welcome. I came back after a long break, wanting to rebuild our guild. Now.. I just feel sad. To any and all reading this, please give this post a thumbs up if you agree. If you are a Mesmer, or have been helped by us, please speak up.

Founder, Tyrian Mystical Tours. [PORT]

Hi. I also represent [PORT] and the changes to fall damage in general will make our task of assisting others with jump puzzles a lot more difficult. I really want to help those in need, especially those who lack the precision and/or patience to complete puzzles due to either nerves or actual physical detriments. This change will be detrimental to a few specific ones, especially Not So Secret, because it will make recovery almost impossible for even the able without it.

This skritt disapproves of the current manifest. We should provide some other meaningful ways to change how fall damage influences whether you can recover from a bad step or not. But I fear this plea will fall on closed ears.

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@ZDragon.3046 said:

@"Robert Gee.9246" said:
Necromancer
  • Terrifying Descent: This trait has been reworked. It has been renamed to "Insidious Disruption". It now causes control effects to inflict torment on foes.

People have been focusing on your Signet of Undeath rework, but I fear this is being overlooked.
WHICH
control effects? Just hard CC or would soft CC count? Outside of Reaper there are not that many hard CCs available to Necro outside of fear, which this trait already covered. Warhorn has daze, and torch and Flesh Golem have knockdown.

If it does include soft CC like immobilize, cripple, and chill, then expect massive stacks of torment unless there is an ICD.

good questionBetter question why is this not just a lesser utility why is it nor merged with our "on heal" trait like many other professions have. Why is both this trait and Spiteful Renewal outliers when you look at the current other professions "on fall damage or on heal" style traits

Im all for something more active than just triggering passive utilities but considering fears are high in cd and condi reaper is not really a thing and its the only other spec that provides additional CC thats not just fear im concerned that it wont be an effective trait option at all. It will be almost as un used as it was before while options 2 and 3 are still better choices both defensively and offensively for core, reaper, and scourge in general

I mean ideally its probably gonna be the same as it was before not nearly as effective if its only really looking at fear you might get a few extra procs if you run warhorn or golem or something but still 3 seconds of torment aint saying much.

Well if it procs on soft CC, then Condi Reaper can be a very real thing and very potent spec, but the amount of cripple that a Scourge can put out would this would make their condi overkill, hence my concern.

I'd love this to trigger on soft CCs, but with or an ICD on scourge abilities like with Dhuumfire.

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@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@"Robert Gee.9246" said:
Necromancer
  • Terrifying Descent: This trait has been reworked. It has been renamed to "Insidious Disruption". It now causes control effects to inflict torment on foes.

People have been focusing on your Signet of Undeath rework, but I fear this is being overlooked.
WHICH
control effects? Just hard CC or would soft CC count? Outside of Reaper there are not that many hard CCs available to Necro outside of fear, which this trait already covered. Warhorn has daze, and torch and Flesh Golem have knockdown.

If it does include soft CC like immobilize, cripple, and chill, then expect massive stacks of torment unless there is an ICD.

good questionBetter question why is this not just a lesser utility why is it nor merged with our "on heal" trait like many other professions have. Why is both this trait and Spiteful Renewal outliers when you look at the current other professions "on fall damage or on heal" style traits

Im all for something more active than just triggering passive utilities but considering fears are high in cd and condi reaper is not really a thing and its the only other spec that provides additional CC thats not just fear im concerned that it wont be an effective trait option at all. It will be almost as un used as it was before while options 2 and 3 are still better choices both defensively and offensively for core, reaper, and scourge in general

I mean ideally its probably gonna be the same as it was before not nearly as effective if its only really looking at fear you might get a few extra procs if you run warhorn or golem or something but still 3 seconds of torment aint saying much.

Well if it procs on soft CC, then Condi Reaper can be a very real thing and very potent spec, but the amount of cripple that a Scourge can put out would this would make their condi overkill, hence my concern.

Not unless they do something with reapers base attacking speed which that in itself prevents the other 2 grand masters from being anywhere near viable or revert deathly chill back to making chill itself do damage in pvp only now that the modes are split to help the dps ramp a bit faster.Condi reaper wont be viable with a few extra stacks of 3 sec torments imo. Compared to current condi builds its not safe enough while applying its conditions and the conditional ramp is far too slow. (which it should be for everyone else but thats no the case atm)

That said i highly doubt its going to be lesser control effects like chill and cripple that proc this kind of thing.

I'd love this to trigger on soft CCs, but with or an ICD on scourge abilities like with Dhuumfire.I guess we have to wait and see really.

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@Robert Gee.9246 said:I need falling damage reduction for some jumping puzzles.Right now we think the only one that really needs it is Griffonrook Run because it integrates fall damage into the critical path (the red eggs restore health for this reason). We'll be adding fall damage reduction into the bomb buff as a result. We don't think this necessary for the other jumping puzzles at the moment but are open to adding it as the need arises.

Thank you for addressing the feedback! But, uh... I don't think you understand how bad I am at jumping puzzles.

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@cherrycola.3127 said:

I need falling damage reduction for some jumping puzzles.
Right now we think the only one that really needs it is Griffonrook Run because it integrates fall damage into the critical path (the red eggs restore health for this reason). We'll be adding fall damage reduction into the bomb buff as a result. We don't think this necessary for the other jumping puzzles at the moment but are open to adding it as the need arises.

Thank you for addressing the feedback! But, uh... I don't think you understand how bad I am at jumping puzzles.

This is exactly why I am a Mesmer.

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@ZDragon.3046 said:

@"Robert Gee.9246" said:
Necromancer
  • Terrifying Descent: This trait has been reworked. It has been renamed to "Insidious Disruption". It now causes control effects to inflict torment on foes.

People have been focusing on your Signet of Undeath rework, but I fear this is being overlooked.
WHICH
control effects? Just hard CC or would soft CC count? Outside of Reaper there are not that many hard CCs available to Necro outside of fear, which this trait already covered. Warhorn has daze, and torch and Flesh Golem have knockdown.

If it does include soft CC like immobilize, cripple, and chill, then expect massive stacks of torment unless there is an ICD.

good questionBetter question why is this not just a lesser utility why is it nor merged with our "on heal" trait like many other professions have. Why is both this trait and Spiteful Renewal outliers when you look at the current other professions "on fall damage or on heal" style traits

Im all for something more active than just triggering passive utilities but considering fears are high in cd and condi reaper is not really a thing and its the only other spec that provides additional CC thats not just fear im concerned that it wont be an effective trait option at all. It will be almost as un used as it was before while options 2 and 3 are still better choices both defensively and offensively for core, reaper, and scourge in general

I mean ideally its probably gonna be the same as it was before not nearly as effective if its only really looking at fear you might get a few extra procs if you run warhorn or golem or something but still 3 seconds of torment aint saying much.

Well if it procs on soft CC, then Condi Reaper can be a very real thing and very potent spec, but the amount of cripple that a Scourge can put out would this would make their condi overkill, hence my concern.

Not unless they do something with reapers base attacking speed which that in itself prevents the other 2 grand masters from being anywhere near viable or revert deathly chill back to making chill itself do damage in pvp only now that the modes are split to help the dps ramp a bit faster.Condi reaper wont be viable with a few extra stacks of 3 sec torments imo. Compared to current condi builds its not safe enough while applying its conditions and the conditional ramp is far too slow. (which it should be for everyone else but thats no the case atm)

That said i highly doubt its going to be lesser control effects like chill and cripple that proc this kind of thing.

I'd love this to trigger on soft CCs, but with or an ICD on scourge abilities like with Dhuumfire.I guess we have to wait and see really.

If it does procs off of soft CC then Shroud5 -> Shroud4 will put out several stacks of torment along with poison and bleed if traited. But yes, I doubt that they will do this as well. Which is sad because just tacking this onto all hard CC does not do much for Necro beyond the current implementation of this trait.

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@Falconwing.8105 said:I have a suggestion for WvW fall damage. Why not create a new upgrade line like you did for gliding and the warclaw? Have it tier up to different amounts of fall damage resistance and have the final tier be a CC effect like what Warrior currently has. It seems to me that this would be an effective way of keeping the mechanic in WvW without adding it to traits or skills.

@Turtle Dragon.9241 said:I have a suggestion for WvW since it is very needed there only. Rather than completely deleting the trait effects, move the effects into a new WvW Mastery, and each profession gets their respective effect after acquiring it. Of course they keep their current cooldowns and all.

Agree, if we could get the fall reduction put into the WvW abilities that would resolve it being removed for WvW. Doesn't really impact EBG players but it does ABL/DBL players.

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So, during the NPE they merged the fall-damage traits into other traits to make things simpler.

Now they're too complicated because they have too many lines of text...

I'm not much into the competitive aspect of anything; I like having these fall damage traits because, even with glider and mounts, I enjoy having options available to me for general map navigation, just for playing around in the world. I really, really like having these traits available. I'm very much against this change as stated, and the only acceptable rectification I could foresee is if it's immediately followed with something like attaching the fall damage reduction to a Central Tyria mastery (like the Pact Commander line).

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