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Potential Holo PvP Changes

Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited November 1, 2019 in Engineer

From: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/91447/potential-future-balance-changes-pvp

@Cal Cohen.2358 said:
Holosmith
Holosmith quickness has been a big point of feedback and we’re planning to make some adjustments there. Removing Sigil of Agility was part of this, and we’re also looking at a minor nerf to Kinetic Battery.

This leaves Elixir U. We’re considering a quickness reduction here as well, but are currently leaning toward an interesting change that’s worth discussing. That change being a heavy reduction of the stability granted. The goal of this change is to leave U as the big quickness skill, but also open the door for more counterplay. This would give opportunity to avoid Corona Burst and then CC the holosmith instead of just getting run over by quickness.

  • Kinetic Battery: Reduced quickness duration from 5 seconds to 3 seconds in PvP only
  • Elixir U: Reduced stability duration from 6 seconds to 1 second in PvP only

An interesting choice. It might work, although it still leaves certain holo builds in good positions.

The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

Comments

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vagrant.7206 said:
    From: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/91447/potential-future-balance-changes-pvp

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    Holosmith
    Holosmith quickness has been a big point of feedback and we’re planning to make some adjustments there. Removing Sigil of Agility was part of this, and we’re also looking at a minor nerf to Kinetic Battery.

    This leaves Elixir U. We’re considering a quickness reduction here as well, but are currently leaning toward an interesting change that’s worth discussing. That change being a heavy reduction of the stability granted. The goal of this change is to leave U as the big quickness skill, but also open the door for more counterplay. This would give opportunity to avoid Corona Burst and then CC the holosmith instead of just getting run over by quickness.

    • Kinetic Battery: Reduced quickness duration from 5 seconds to 3 seconds in PvP only
    • Elixir U: Reduced stability duration from 6 seconds to 1 second in PvP only

    An interesting choice. It might work, although it still leaves certain holo builds in good positions.

    I think it will work for the time being, as this is just the beginning. If this doesn't work, I suggest making Elixir U procc stab for 2s instead of 1s, and bringing down quickness to last 3-4s. If this still doesn't work, then I'd knock down the sustain from heat therapy (currently 65 HP healed per unit of heat lost) to 40 per unit of heat lost.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • Spartacus.3192Spartacus.3192 Member ✭✭✭

    Holo is one of my fav classes to play along with war, rev and guard. Honestly they should just nerf heat therapy. Start there . Why nerf core stuff if holo is outperforming. That immediately reduces the sustain of holo.

  • Ruufio.1496Ruufio.1496 Member ✭✭✭

    No. Don't touch the stability on U or any other engineer ability at this point. They're all pretty well balanced out now, stability-wise. Maybe function gyro AOE stab is subpar but that's not for this discussion.

    You want to nerf the quickness, basically, right? Maybe try something like this:
    Elixir U: Stability and vigor are now 5s instead of 6s. For 5s attacking a foe grants quickness (1s) with 1s ICD. Does not grant quickness on activation of the skill. Also does not grant quickness if attacks are whiffed (blinded, blocked, evaded etc.)

    This gives a small window where opponents can react against the engineer landing hits to gain quickness.

  • Current Elixir U doesn't make core Engineer viable. The change brings Holosmith down. That's the priority. I guess it sucks for Scrappers but, hey, collateral damage. 😔

  • Don Vega Van Kain.9842Don Vega Van Kain.9842 Member ✭✭✭
    edited November 2, 2019

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    An interesting choice. It might work, although it still leaves certain holo builds in good positions.

    Hmmm...comming from a known engineer's main confusing me.

    Nerfing (again) an engineer core skills to nerf holo ???? i don't play core engineer but my scrapper will heavilly be impacted with this change.

    If they want nerfing Holo then they have to nerf HOLO's traits, mechs and skills, nothing else (why not nerfing Eclipse's stab ?)

    Troll since 1988.

  • HnRkLnXqZ.1870HnRkLnXqZ.1870 Member ✭✭✭✭

    This looks like a Core and Scrapper nerf, especially the part about stability. We are probably still too strong. Let me guess, we get more superspeed?

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 2, 2019

    @Don Vega Van Kain.9842 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    An interesting choice. It might work, although it still leaves certain holo builds in good positions.

    Hmmm...comming from a known engineer's main confusing me.

    Nerfing (again) an engineer core skills to nerf holo ???? i don't play core engineer but my scrapper will heavilly be impacted with this change.

    Holo is overperforming partly because of its ability to maintain defense through offense. Elixir U is a prime example of this -- stunbreak, stability, and quickness rounded into one. Targeting stability is one of the ways to make it more vulnerable.

    I'm not saying these are fantastic changes -- I still think Heat Therapy should be their main priority, but removing Elixir U stability was one of the things I was ok with. I wanted Elixir U (and toss Elixir U) reverted back to their original forms.

    In the same thread asking for nerfs, I also flat-out said that core engineer needs some serious reworking. All the kits and weapons besides rifle need to be reevaluated and improved. Our elites need to be examined as well, and the changes to Rampage highlight that further. Scrapper also needs buffs, but Elixir U isn't the one it needs.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 5, 2019

    FOLLOW UP:

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1090642/#Comment_1090642

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    Updates to the previous list:

    • Sigil of Agility: Reduced quickness duration from 2 seconds to 1 second
    • Photon Wall: Increased cooldown from 35 seconds to 45 seconds in PvP only
    • Heat Therapy: Reduced heal per stack from 65 to 49 (-25%) in PvP only

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • Jaruselka.5943Jaruselka.5943 Member ✭✭✭

    @HnRkLnXqZ.1870 said:
    This looks like a Core and Scrapper nerf, especially the part about stability. We are probably still too strong. Let me guess, we get more superspeed?

    ..as if Scrapper losing all those elite toolbelt skills for that garbage F5 gyro skill wasn‘t enough of a nerf..smh

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 6, 2019

    meanwhile holos still have

    perma vigor, swiftness and high uptimes to other boons like retal and fury
    a 2s cd 600 range leap finisher
    great dps in holomode
    great sustain

    yeah nothings changed.

    edit
    didn't see that follow up post. ok ok lookin better.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • I agree that certain builds of Holosmiths are overpowered right now, but I think there could have been a better approach other than nerfing Heat Therapy?
    I don't play PvP that much, so I'm assuming Metabattle's ratings are reliable. Metabattle lists 3 holosmith builds with 4+ rating. All 3 of which uses the GM major trait Thermal Release Valve.

    Won't nerfing Heat Therapy, which is a minor trait, hurt build diversity? I have not seen Photonic Blasting Module used in sPvP (for obvious reasons) and after this nerf I seriously doubt it will see any use. The Protection Holo build which uses sword/shield doesn't even use the ECSU trait, which is kind of ironic since sword is the only weapon Engi has that benefits from heat levels. I thought they would have made a change to Thermal Release Valve instead.

    What do you Engis think? I know this is based on the assumption that Metabattle's ratings are reliable, so if there's a better site to find current PvP meta builds, please let me know.

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 11, 2019

    @crimsonvapor.1937 said:
    I agree that certain builds of Holosmiths are overpowered right now, but I think there could have been a better approach other than nerfing Heat Therapy?
    I don't play PvP that much, so I'm assuming Metabattle's ratings are reliable. Metabattle lists 3 holosmith builds with 4+ rating. All 3 of which uses the GM major trait Thermal Release Valve.

    Won't nerfing Heat Therapy, which is a minor trait, hurt build diversity? I have not seen Photonic Blasting Module used in sPvP (for obvious reasons) and after this nerf I seriously doubt it will see any use. The Protection Holo build which uses sword/shield doesn't even use the ECSU trait, which is kind of ironic since sword is the only weapon Engi has that benefits from heat levels. I thought they would have made a change to Thermal Release Valve instead.

    What do you Engis think? I know this is based on the assumption that Metabattle's ratings are reliable, so if there's a better site to find current PvP meta builds, please let me know.

    Heat Therapy affects every holo build, not just those with Thermal Release Valve.

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @crimsonvapor.1937 said:
    I agree that certain builds of Holosmiths are overpowered right now, but I think there could have been a better approach other than nerfing Heat Therapy?
    I don't play PvP that much, so I'm assuming Metabattle's ratings are reliable. Metabattle lists 3 holosmith builds with 4+ rating. All 3 of which uses the GM major trait Thermal Release Valve.

    Won't nerfing Heat Therapy, which is a minor trait, hurt build diversity? I have not seen Photonic Blasting Module used in sPvP (for obvious reasons) and after this nerf I seriously doubt it will see any use. The Protection Holo build which uses sword/shield doesn't even use the ECSU trait, which is kind of ironic since sword is the only weapon Engi has that benefits from heat levels. I thought they would have made a change to Thermal Release Valve instead.

    What do you Engis think? I know this is based on the assumption that Metabattle's ratings are reliable, so if there's a better site to find current PvP meta builds, please let me know.

    Heat Therapy affects every holo build, not just those with Thermal Release Valve.

    Yes, I understand that.

    I'm just asking if builds that don't use Thermal Release Valve are also considered "OP". Since I don't see any rated highly on Metabattle, I was wondering if anyone knows if any build that doesn't use Thermal Release Valve feels OP. If not, this change might be nerfing more than it should.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @crimsonvapor.1937 said:
    I don't play PvP that much, so I'm assuming Metabattle's ratings are reliable.

    Lolno.

    The community has a very skewed perception of balance. And what builds are even allowed to show up to be rated by the community for the conquest section is curated by one guy who no one actually knows who he is in game or how good at PvP he even is.

    Right now among good players Holosmith is widely regarded as easily one of if not the best build for ranked.

    And in ATs right now the most dominant team composition is currently Firebrand/Firebrand/Holosmith/Herald/X with X being either a second Holo or Herald.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @crimsonvapor.1937 said:
    I don't play PvP that much, so I'm assuming Metabattle's ratings are reliable.


    Lolno.

    The community has a very skewed perception of balance. And what builds are even allowed to show up to be rated by the community for the conquest section is curated by one guy who no one actually knows who he is in game or how good at PvP he even is.

    Right now among good players Holosmith is widely regarded as easily one of if not the best build for ranked.

    And in ATs right now the most dominant team composition is currently Firebrand/Firebrand/Holosmith/Herald/X with X being either a second Holo or Herald.

    when you watch high rank stream and one team has 3 firebrands, another has 2. you know its gonna be boring as f.
    for all the autism of thief/mesmer they make the game more fun and fastpaced, dunno if having 5-6 firebrands slap eachother on capricorn bell is the way to go when it comes to fun.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 12, 2019

    @crimsonvapor.1937 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @crimsonvapor.1937 said:
    I agree that certain builds of Holosmiths are overpowered right now, but I think there could have been a better approach other than nerfing Heat Therapy?
    I don't play PvP that much, so I'm assuming Metabattle's ratings are reliable. Metabattle lists 3 holosmith builds with 4+ rating. All 3 of which uses the GM major trait Thermal Release Valve.

    Won't nerfing Heat Therapy, which is a minor trait, hurt build diversity? I have not seen Photonic Blasting Module used in sPvP (for obvious reasons) and after this nerf I seriously doubt it will see any use. The Protection Holo build which uses sword/shield doesn't even use the ECSU trait, which is kind of ironic since sword is the only weapon Engi has that benefits from heat levels. I thought they would have made a change to Thermal Release Valve instead.

    What do you Engis think? I know this is based on the assumption that Metabattle's ratings are reliable, so if there's a better site to find current PvP meta builds, please let me know.

    Heat Therapy affects every holo build, not just those with Thermal Release Valve.

    Yes, I understand that.

    I'm just asking if builds that don't use Thermal Release Valve are also considered "OP". Since I don't see any rated highly on Metabattle, I was wondering if anyone knows if any build that doesn't use Thermal Release Valve feels OP. If not, this change might be nerfing more than it should.

    Photonic Blasting Module is a complete nonstarter in PvP. Maybe it could be workable if it cancelled all damage instead of just the initial damage. Even then it'd be completely outclassed by the other two options.

    Enhanced Storage Capacity Unit is perfectly workable but outclassed in both Photon Forge uptime, as well as minimizing how much you need to actually manage and care about heat given how much heat you lose organically dodging plus Engineer's more or less permanent vigor uptime.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Can't wait for that heat therapy nerf. FeelsGoodMan

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 12, 2019

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @crimsonvapor.1937 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @crimsonvapor.1937 said:
    I agree that certain builds of Holosmiths are overpowered right now, but I think there could have been a better approach other than nerfing Heat Therapy?
    I don't play PvP that much, so I'm assuming Metabattle's ratings are reliable. Metabattle lists 3 holosmith builds with 4+ rating. All 3 of which uses the GM major trait Thermal Release Valve.

    Won't nerfing Heat Therapy, which is a minor trait, hurt build diversity? I have not seen Photonic Blasting Module used in sPvP (for obvious reasons) and after this nerf I seriously doubt it will see any use. The Protection Holo build which uses sword/shield doesn't even use the ECSU trait, which is kind of ironic since sword is the only weapon Engi has that benefits from heat levels. I thought they would have made a change to Thermal Release Valve instead.

    What do you Engis think? I know this is based on the assumption that Metabattle's ratings are reliable, so if there's a better site to find current PvP meta builds, please let me know.

    Heat Therapy affects every holo build, not just those with Thermal Release Valve.

    Yes, I understand that.

    I'm just asking if builds that don't use Thermal Release Valve are also considered "OP". Since I don't see any rated highly on Metabattle, I was wondering if anyone knows if any build that doesn't use Thermal Release Valve feels OP. If not, this change might be nerfing more than it should.

    Photonic Blasting Module is a complete nonstarter in PvP. Maybe it could be workable if it cancelled all damage instead of just the initial damage. Even then it'd be completely outclassed by the other two options.

    Enhanced Storage Capacity Unit is perfectly workable but outclassed in both Photon Forge uptime, as well as minimizing how much you need to actually manage and care about heat given how much heat you lose organically dodging plus Engineer's more or less permanent vigor uptime.

    Pretty much.

    • PBM is just bad overall right now -- the toolbelt lockout + self damage makes it complete garbage in PvP. In order for it to have any value in a competitive scene, both of those things need to be tossed out.
    • ECSU is workable, but inferior to Thermal Release Valve in most respects. The cooldown period is longer, and heat is harder to control. The benefits of >100% heat are miniscule by comparison (only affects sword, might gained is small if you're actively fighting).

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    And in ATs right now the most dominant team composition is currently Firebrand/Firebrand/Holosmith/Herald/X with X being either a second Holo or Herald.

    NA October Monthly AT was:

    Firebrand, Firebrand, Firebrand, Mirage, Berserker. Vs. Firebrand, Herald, Herald, Necromancer, Weaver.

    AT Holo dominance??

    There was a good team in the semi-finals that ran double prot Holo. No tools holos sighted, no holo dominance sighted in NA. What did the EU tournament look like, must've been Holo heavy for you to claim Holo is currently dominanting ATs

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    And in ATs right now the most dominant team composition is currently Firebrand/Firebrand/Holosmith/Herald/X with X being either a second Holo or Herald.

    NA October Monthly AT was:

    Firebrand, Firebrand, Firebrand, Mirage, Berserker. Vs. Firebrand, Herald, Herald, Necromancer, Weaver.

    AT Holo dominance??

    There was a good team in the semi-finals that ran double prot Holo. No tools holos sighted, no holo dominance sighted in NA. What did the EU tournament look like, must've been Holo heavy for you to claim Holo is currently dominanting ATs

    Huh...?

    What are you talking about the October Monthly isn't happing until the 16th this month.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @crimsonvapor.1937 said:
    I don't play PvP that much, so I'm assuming Metabattle's ratings are reliable.


    Lolno.

    The community has a very skewed perception of balance. And what builds are even allowed to show up to be rated by the community for the conquest section is curated by one guy who no one actually knows who he is in game or how good at PvP he even is.

    Right now among good players Holosmith is widely regarded as easily one of if not the best build for ranked.

    And in ATs right now the most dominant team composition is currently Firebrand/Firebrand/Holosmith/Herald/X with X being either a second Holo or Herald.

    Yeah, I heard that about Metabattle. I'm not sure where else to find resources for top PvP builds, and that's why I asked above if anyone knows where to find such a resource.

    I also said above that, in my opinion, I believe Holosmith is overperforming.

  • @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @crimsonvapor.1937 said:

    @Vagrant.7206 said:

    @crimsonvapor.1937 said:
    I agree that certain builds of Holosmiths are overpowered right now, but I think there could have been a better approach other than nerfing Heat Therapy?
    I don't play PvP that much, so I'm assuming Metabattle's ratings are reliable. Metabattle lists 3 holosmith builds with 4+ rating. All 3 of which uses the GM major trait Thermal Release Valve.

    Won't nerfing Heat Therapy, which is a minor trait, hurt build diversity? I have not seen Photonic Blasting Module used in sPvP (for obvious reasons) and after this nerf I seriously doubt it will see any use. The Protection Holo build which uses sword/shield doesn't even use the ECSU trait, which is kind of ironic since sword is the only weapon Engi has that benefits from heat levels. I thought they would have made a change to Thermal Release Valve instead.

    What do you Engis think? I know this is based on the assumption that Metabattle's ratings are reliable, so if there's a better site to find current PvP meta builds, please let me know.

    Heat Therapy affects every holo build, not just those with Thermal Release Valve.

    Yes, I understand that.

    I'm just asking if builds that don't use Thermal Release Valve are also considered "OP". Since I don't see any rated highly on Metabattle, I was wondering if anyone knows if any build that doesn't use Thermal Release Valve feels OP. If not, this change might be nerfing more than it should.

    Photonic Blasting Module is a complete nonstarter in PvP. Maybe it could be workable if it cancelled all damage instead of just the initial damage. Even then it'd be completely outclassed by the other two options.

    Enhanced Storage Capacity Unit is perfectly workable but outclassed in both Photon Forge uptime, as well as minimizing how much you need to actually manage and care about heat given how much heat you lose organically dodging plus Engineer's more or less permanent vigor uptime.

    Yes, this was what I was after. Based on this, it seems like Thermal Release Valve is the top pick. If that's the case, why is nerfing Heat Therapy the best option?

    For example, if we make the assumption that builds using ESCU are balanced in the meta right now, nerfing Heat Therapy would actually be reducing build diversity for Holosmith. This, of course, is assuming that ESCU builds are balanced.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Huh...?

    What are you talking about the October Monthly isn't happing until the 16th this month.

    I casted a MaT ten days ago, see it for yourself.

    1:37:52

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Lunateric.3708Lunateric.3708 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Huh...?

    What are you talking about the October Monthly isn't happing until the 16th this month.

    I casted a MaT ten days ago, see it for yourself.

    1:37:52

    Can't wait to see a response. Gonna be tough making a case against a video

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 13, 2019

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Huh...?

    What are you talking about the October Monthly isn't happing until the 16th this month.

    I casted a MaT ten days ago, see it for yourself.

    1:37:52

    That's not the October Monthly. The October Monthly hasn't happened yet. Pretty sure that one there is the August one.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/91663/october-monthly-tournament-on-11-16#latest

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • Chaith.8256Chaith.8256 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 13, 2019

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    That's not the October Monthly. The October Monthly hasn't happened yet. Pretty sure that one there is the August one.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/91663/october-monthly-tournament-on-11-16#latest

    Care to address my last post instead of arguing what Month the MaT on November 1st was representing?

    Again, what evidence do you have to back up that Firebrand, Firebrand, Holo, Herald, Holo/Herald is a comp currently dominating ATs? You've provided none

    twitch.tv/chaithh
    Forum Lord Chaith

  • Lunateric.3708Lunateric.3708 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @Chaith.8256 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Huh...?

    What are you talking about the October Monthly isn't happing until the 16th this month.

    I casted a MaT ten days ago, see it for yourself.

    1:37:52

    That's not the October Monthly. The October Monthly hasn't happened yet. Pretty sure that one there is the August one.

    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/91663/october-monthly-tournament-on-11-16#latest

    Arguing about what month the MaT corresponds to is nothing but a poor attempt at not answering the original line of thought. Unless there was a major balance shift that will somehow make "holosmith dominance" a thing for next MaT.

    Spoiler alert: it won't.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    All they have to do is nerf Holosmith's survivability itself so that they have to start rolling different stats to get the same survivability as before, reducing the damage they do through straight stat scaling.

    Right now, with just some pieces of Marauder and a majority of Berserker pieces, they can face tank even the strongest bursts in the game.

    If they wanna build like a Thief, it's not fair that they can sustain/take hits like a Guardian is all I'm saying.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Vagrant.7206Vagrant.7206 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    All they have to do is nerf Holosmith's survivability itself so that they have to start rolling different stats to get the same survivability as before, reducing the damage they do through straight stat scaling.

    Right now, with just some pieces of Marauder and a majority of Berserker pieces, they can face tank even the strongest bursts in the game.

    If they wanna build like a Thief, it's not fair that they can sustain/take hits like a Guardian is all I'm saying.

    This thread is >3 months old now. Why resurrect it?

    The great god Lagki demands sacrifice!