Escapist's Fortitude ICD is too low, needs to be higher.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Shao.7236 said:Daredevil can harass as much as it wants while there's a 8 seconds to 15 seconds gap waiting in between skills that can do anything worthwhile to them in ANY form of condition build for Revenant AND other mentioned profession builds aside Thief suffer from even worst cases where it's all AoE based or have no way to stow what's already done. Autoattacking holds nothing worth the risk of a random evade and the massive damage from Staff or S/D in close as well as evades from the weapons themselves.

That is by design and that is what Thief in any Elite Spec suppose to do. You just happen to be using an inferior build that's played inefficiently that is easily taken apart by a Daredevil. I too have a Revenant and I've dabbled in making condition build works, but that's like cutting my legs off -- Revenant is not applying enough variety of conditions to make it work. A single cleanse can shut down your damage output because if it's not bleeding, it's torment -- that's it. The burning (elite skill only) and poison (10s ICD) are both restricted, they're not even worth taking.

Wooden Potato made a Renegade power build that I started using with some tweaks. It is more effective in dealing damage than trying to make condition work -- it's just not gonna happen with the Revenant.

You need to rethink your strategy. Just because Revenant can deal condition damage it doesn't necessarily mean they can run a full condition build. Your experience is already a proof that Revenant needs improvement in the condition damage department. The Revenant's dysfunction is not the Thief's problem.

You can't fix Revenant's flat tire by poking holes in the Thief's tires. Learn to change tires.

This is the reason I assumed the OP would be running grieving stats, since you'd then get decent power damage to prop up the condis. You are quite right if you're talking about pure condi builds like trailblazer tho.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@Shao.7236 said:Daredevil can harass as much as it wants while there's a 8 seconds to 15 seconds gap waiting in between skills that can do anything worthwhile to them in ANY form of condition build for Revenant AND other mentioned profession builds aside Thief suffer from even worst cases where it's all AoE based or have no way to stow what's already done. Autoattacking holds nothing worth the risk of a random evade and the massive damage from Staff or S/D in close as well as evades from the weapons themselves.

That is by design and that is what Thief in any Elite Spec suppose to do. You just happen to be using an inferior build that's played inefficiently that is easily taken apart by a Daredevil. I too have a Revenant and I've dabbled in making condition build works, but that's like cutting my legs off -- Revenant is not applying enough variety of conditions to make it work. A single cleanse can shut down your damage output because if it's not bleeding, it's torment -- that's it. The burning (elite skill only) and poison (10s ICD) are both restricted, they're not even worth taking.

Wooden Potato made a Renegade power build that I started using with some tweaks. It is more effective in dealing damage than trying to make condition work -- it's just not gonna happen with the Revenant.

You need to rethink your strategy. Just because Revenant can deal condition damage it doesn't necessarily mean they can run a full condition build. Your experience is already a proof that Revenant needs improvement in the condition damage department. The Revenant's dysfunction is not the Thief's problem.

You can't fix Revenant's flat tire by poking holes in the Thief's tires. Learn to change tires.

This is the reason I assumed the OP would be running grieving stats, since you'd then get decent power damage to prop up the condis. You are quite right if you're talking about pure condi builds like trailblazer tho.

I've turned the Revenant profession inside out, I just can't make condition build to work. The fact that the utility skills are locked in per Legend, I cannot create skill combinations that can work. Every attempt is over shadowed by the fact that I'm better off running high crit power build. Even the Renegade E.spec is cruel to condition build-- while Kala grant tons of Ferocity, she grants pathetic amount of condition damage boost.

[Shao.7236]

@"Sir Vincent III.1286"Power Daredevil dominates any condition builds because of the multi-hit endeavors, Revenant as I already said is not the one having the worst time. I use Hybrid builds with Sage or Viper, Power is not something that lacks, given the great use of Sigil of Intelligence as well for specifically hard hitting power skills only that will crit good damage.

The idea that one simple trait allows to pretty much contain the entire pool of 8 profession because by design, conditions are "Multi-Hits" and "AoE" based. 3 seconds gives ANY condition builds in the game to have a chance of stacking something meaningful and tells the Daredevil to not stupidly play.

I've played most of the viable Revenant builds Meta and not Meta, really really quirky ones. I stick to Condition based because it has much more potent team fight and utility as a result of legends while still able to +1, just not with Deathstrike.

@"Jugglemonkey.8741"

Embrace the Darkness would eventually overwhelm the over extending oppression of the Daredevil because that's exactly how any Thief dies, versus any builds for that matter, the synergy of the trait takes care of what weakness of any good Daredevil altogether. EtA alone can deal up to 30 Torment stacks easily for those that don't respect a Revenant personal space, few of those are bound to hit but impossibly can't stay because of the Multi-Hit Nature, it's just torment, adding anything over it would require minimum 10 seconds everytime.

The "anything" worthwhile is the most "viable" way to deal conditions without spamming or being too telegraphed for an easy evade. The biggest problem is not Revenant running AoE but rather that most if not all professions rely on something that is very friendly to that trait itself. Mesmer have clones that don't stow, Guardian is literally Multi-hit and AoE based, Engineer as I have mention earlier could have a potent chance with Blowtorch, Ranger is multi-hit and AoE, if Warrior tried would have AoE and Mult-Hits, Elementalist have the same problem as Warrior, Necromancer plain have not chance with all those large scale continuous attacks with not chasing potential, Thief has potent application that counter plays itself.

In fact, I don't struggle with Daredevil Condition as my build has the best chance against it in the game probably, just Power but that would be anyone really. I can counter pressure "instantly" conditions from a reckless Condition DD, Power has and all evasive attacks to harass anyone with cleansing as they do with no risk of that counter pressure, but it shows that you require anything instant to deal with them anyway, which is not possible with Conditions, only power.

It's just my opinion that the ceiling of effort is really low with it, also why there's so much hate around Condition Daredevil which is honestly uncalled for, wouldn't think it's OP, just the avoidance of so many evades already does so much.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Shao.7236 said:@"Sir Vincent III.1286"Power Daredevil dominates any condition builds because of the multi-hit endeavors, Revenant as I already said is not the one having the worst time. I use Hybrid builds with Sage or Viper, Power is not something that lacks, given the great use of Sigil of Intelligence as well for specifically hard hitting power skills only that will crit good damage.

The idea that one simple trait allows to pretty much contain the entire pool of 8 profession because by design, conditions are "Multi-Hits" and "AoE" based. 3 seconds gives ANY condition builds in the game to have a chance of stacking something meaningful and tells the Daredevil to not stupidly play.

I've played most of the viable Revenant builds Meta and not Meta, really really quirky ones. I stick to Condition based because it has much more potent team fight and utility as a result of legends while still able to +1, just not with Deathstrike.

I have a Condition Damage Scourge and I'm not facing the same problem that you are having with your Revenant. Why? Because Scourge has access to a variety of conditions. You cleanse one, the others will deal damage. You're not analyzing the source of your problem. Revenant will ran out of resources trying to pin down a Daredevil, then you're just a sitting duck. Scourge got nerfed to give Daredevil a fighting chance.

[Shao.7236]

@Sir Vincent III.1286People that can't make condition revenant work is because they're not using the utilities the way they are meant to be or let alone wrap their mind around it, running Trailblazer is very limiting also. It's not really in the best benefit of Revenant.

It's a fact that the majority of players alone are used to the freedom of choice with the skills, they can't really see all the synergy available in between and within the legends.

Also scourge nerfs were uncalled for, weren't needed at all. Daredevil was reworked afterwards. In fact it would be a good thing if Scourge was given the advantage of taking down Daredevils like that because they are extremely vulnerable unlike the later.

As Revenant I can apply Cripple, Slow, Chill, Burning, Poison and Burning altogether in one blast, explain to me why doesn't that work still again? Yeah, because meaningfully speaking, the amount of conditions is irrelevant when the intensity of damage is null which requires again, Multi-hits.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@Shao.7236 said:@"Sir Vincent III.1286"Power Daredevil dominates any condition builds because of the multi-hit endeavors, Revenant as I already said is not the one having the worst time. I use Hybrid builds with Sage or Viper, Power is not something that lacks, given the great use of Sigil of Intelligence as well for specifically hard hitting power skills only that will crit good damage.

The idea that one simple trait allows to pretty much contain the entire pool of 8 profession because by design, conditions are "Multi-Hits" and "AoE" based. 3 seconds gives ANY condition builds in the game to have a chance of stacking something meaningful and tells the Daredevil to not stupidly play.

I've played most of the viable Revenant builds Meta and not Meta, really really quirky ones. I stick to Condition based because it has much more potent team fight and utility as a result of legends while still able to +1, just not with Deathstrike.

@"Jugglemonkey.8741"

Embrace the Darkness would eventually overwhelm the over extending oppression of the Daredevil because that's exactly how any Thief dies, versus any builds for that matter, the synergy of the trait takes care of what weakness of any good Daredevil altogether. EtA alone can deal up to 30 Torment stacks easily for those that don't respect a Revenant personal space, few of those are bound to hit but impossibly can't stay because of the Multi-Hit Nature, it's just torment, adding anything over it would require minimum 10 seconds everytime.

The "anything" worthwhile is the most "viable" way to deal conditions without spamming or being too telegraphed for an easy evade. The biggest problem is not Revenant running AoE but rather that most if not all professions rely on something that is very friendly to that trait itself. Mesmer have clones that don't stow, Guardian is literally Multi-hit and AoE based, Engineer as I have mention earlier could have a potent chance with Blowtorch, Ranger is multi-hit and AoE, if Warrior tried would have AoE and Mult-Hits, Elementalist have the same problem as Warrior, Necromancer plain have not chance with all those large scale continuous attacks with not chasing potential, Thief has potent application that counter plays itself.

In fact, I don't struggle with Daredevil Condition as my build has the best chance against it in the game probably, just Power but that would be anyone really. I can counter pressure "instantly" conditions from a reckless Condition DD, Power has and all evasive attacks to harass anyone with cleansing as they do with no risk of that counter pressure, but it shows that you require anything instant to deal with them anyway, which is not possible with Conditions, only power.

It's just my opinion that the ceiling of effort is really low with it, also why there's so much hate around Condition Daredevil which is honestly uncalled for, wouldn't think it's OP, just the avoidance of so many evades already does so much.

Honestly, it sounds like you have an issue with daredevil evades more than you do cleanse on evades. There's a number of condition builds that can instantly spike high levels of conditions to delete a player, the thing with those builds is that they are more difficult to play than the AoE multi hit options versus enemies that have enough cleanse as you have to bait those cleanses before the big spike to make sure you do the damage. This is why I suggested using the on swap sigils, not just to do damage but also but to apply enough pressure to force cleanses before your main burst. I used to do the same thing on reaper, wait for the daredevil to engage and then use shroud to break the daze from steal, while also proccing weakening shroud alongside geomancy and hydromancy sigils (hydromancy for the bleed from deathly chill). Really, it's a lot more effective than you might think.

It's interesting to me that you say that power daredevil dominates condition builds. I play deadeye pretty much exclusively in WvW at the moment, and the three DE builds I regularly swap between are an evade & boon rip focussed S/D rifle build, a glassy stealth focussed D/P rifle build, and a tanky condition P/D rifle build. Each build is useful for different opponents and situations, but I find that the condition build is the only one of the three that won't just get hard countered by a competent daredevil or core thief running the usual meta builds.

The reason for this is because I build for condition duration, and have about 60% duration on poison and 70% duration on torment, and I also build with the aim of being able to kill an opponent that doesn't cleanse with one attack. This means two things; while I'm focussed on attrition as that's the strength of condition builds, I'm not dependant on a continuous assault, and every stack of damaging condi that they can't cleanse is dangerous because of the duration, for instance, the three stacks of poison from mark usually does enough damage to dismount someone by itself. This is why I value condis applied from weapon swap; they're almost impossible to avoid when used right being instant cast, they can force cleanses ready for my main burst, and even if the opponent cleanses my main burst I can follow up with the swap sigils as the condis from that have long enough duration to do significant damage if they don't get cleansed.

The other thing to consider is the variety of damaging and cover conditions available to your build. If you're aiming to do all of your damage through a massive torment bomb, all I have to do as a thief is make sure I save withdraw until after you've landed that bomb. All your eggs are in one basket, which makes it easy to counter whether I trait EA or not. The way I've set up my condi build, P/D can apply bleed, torment, poison, immob, vulnerability and weakness from using body shot then sneak attack, and the damage from the first three is around 1-2k each for a 4-5k average tick. EA on it's own is not going to cleanse those condis fast enough before they do significant damage even if I'm attacking into evade, so if you're lacking cover condis for that 30 stacks of torment that might also be where you're struggling.

[AsiraasiB.7165]

Are we kidding here? Especially right now in this condi meta? Everyone.. Yes everyone can apply and reapply conditions like no1s looking. And not to mention every class except Rev can deal with condis with ease( looking at u guards, warriors, halos, necros, rangers, ele.. ) mesmers can too i just never really needed too they are so face roll most ppl just die.

Anywho and those classes cleanse more and turns all into boons.. So pls stop with the nerf thief threads.. Buff thief.. And last but not leastLearn to play. Not just saying ure bad or anything.. But if you tried more classes, like thief, you know how paper we are in a water meta

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Shao.7236 said:@"Sir Vincent III.1286"People that can't make condition revenant work is because they're not using the utilities the way they are meant to be or let alone wrap their mind around it, running Trailblazer is very limiting also. It's not really in the best benefit of Revenant.

It's a fact that the majority of players alone are used to the freedom of choice with the skills, they can't really see all the synergy available in between and within the legends.

It's a fact that Revenant doesn't have access to a variety of conditions that can easily be applied -- you have ignored that fact.

Instead you go on talking about some subjective instances why "people can't make condition revenant work".

It's a know fact that Revenant has a massive flaw when running conditions and the Daredevil just exposed that flaw in broad daylight.

Your solution is to stop the Daredevil from exposing the flaw instead of addressing on how to fix it.

Also scourge nerfs were uncalled for, weren't needed at all. Daredevil was reworked afterwards. In fact it would be a good thing if Scourge was given the advantage of taking down Daredevils like that because they are extremely vulnerable unlike the later.

Wait what? You are against the nerf on Scourge, yet you are advocating a nerf on Daredevil? un-freaking-believable!

This is why your stance is ridiculous from the beginning since you have no idea what you're talking about.

As Revenant I can apply Cripple, Slow, Chill, Burning, Poison and Burning altogether in one blast, explain to me why doesn't that work still again? Yeah, because meaningfully speaking, the amount of conditions is irrelevant when the intensity of damage is null which requires again, Multi-hits.

Seriously? That's your rebuttal?

First of all, the main goal of condition damage is to apply pressure, which means, your build should have the ability to replenish cleansed conditions. Just because you can front load with conditions doesn't necessarily means it would be effective. Once your conditions are cleansed, then what? You're a sitting duck without resources to use any skills. As a Revenant, you have to auto-attack or wait for your energy to regen. By that time, the Daredevil has mulitple skills and traits out of CD. Revenant's CDs need improvement.

Second, the Revenant needs an overhaul since the whole thing is a mess. The best build for Revenant is an auto-attacking shortbow power build. That's pathetic. You can't bring that in a competitive scenario. Every time you auto-attack, the Daredevil will dodge/evade it. Every time you drop a pulsing AoE, the Daredevil will use that as free condition cleanse. Locking the utility skills per stance is a stupid idea that limits the flexibility of the profession. At least, ArenaNet should allow Revenant to cycle through all Legendary stances (F1-F5) just like how Elementalist cycles through elements.

Lastly, you need to accept the fact that Revenant needs a lot of attention, especially when it comes to Condition Damage build. You're just in denial of this obvious fact. Instead you are advocating to nerf another profession instead of fixing the Revenant.

[Shao.7236]

@"Sir Vincent III.1286"

There's no point in trying to tell you anything it seems, I'm advocating for a nerf that benefits everyone while you're focused on the sole fact I main Revenant as I said in every single posts that Daredevil dominates any condition builds more than my own alone with the least effort and for those that actually know how to play it they are immortal, that includes me just casually pulling out my Thief without any practice, easily countering Builds that are banned in tournaments by just harassing.

Revenant is in no need of rework there's plenty to work with and if applying 5 conditions /easily/ in one go every 10 seconds is what you'd consider "low key bad", you're advocating for unnecessary power creep which goes to show how blind you are to the design of condition in anyway because there's no condition build in the game that can apply more than at best 5 stacks of any damaging condition in 1 hit in all telegraphed manner but Thief itself.

It would be an actual pleasure to show you how Revenant is done with and without an objective to sit on in PvP instead of saying like everyone else that has such a biased mentality to every other class freedom that Revenant is fundamentally useless, I'd actually care to see how you fair up against anything in the highest tiers of the players to prove the point that Revenant is the only issue when again that's clearly not my entire statement. WvW is not a place to evaluate any competitive aspects in the slightest when everyone runs glass and the stats are beyond broken in design without a structure, it's chaotic and unfun for those that care about influence.

Scourge was and always just like ANY Necromancer build very easy to counter with any form of consistent CC as they themselves have NO invulnerable frames or reliable instant mobility like other professions, you're lead to believe it was this good because Firebrands would pocket them but those too have been nerfed significally and people are still asking for more which is uncalled for. Ever since the shift of skills where people started to use Wurm or Spectral Walk was the moment where Scourge was actually balanced in contrast of the other classes, now it has a higher skill ceiling than anything else in the game including my own builds because peoples outcry was so freaking bad, bad to the so called Condi DD level of complain which is actually fine and doesn't need to be nerfed anymore either, only the later to stop the easy gameplay.

God, were talking about a class that can back out constantly out of fight and attacks are evade based, should the player be more focused to properly use those evades and passively benefit from them in a rewarding manner that doesn't utterly annihilate everything else in the game that's condition based when "good" players have at it, we're clearly not playing the same game.

Edit: To think you want to buff condition revenant is a terrible idea, it doesn't need one and we don't need another build among the rest that's too easy to play as they already are.

@AsiraasiB.7165What condi meta? There are more Power Builds recommended than Conditions. Been missing those Warriors running those 25 Permanent Might stacks lately? Deadeye's cheesing with Pistol Whip?

@"Jugglemonkey.8741"It's not putting the eggs in one basket, it's how Mallyx works, whether I use all the sigils in the games to apply cover conditions or not, (which I actually do.) does not remove the fact that everything is highly telegraphed and even in the best of opportunities given, whether I am to strategically use those (which I do as well, I have to if I want to be effective.) or not, the synergy of the later is too strong against the whole basket of offering itself in the game. Should it be the best 1v1/sidenodder in the game? Yeah, why not, but let's not make it too easy either? Also let's not nerf "core" aspects, Engineer has been constantly put on display that it's a bad idea and it's still crying in the corner for many options to come back which I would love to see myself, but thanks to the mismanagement of Holosmith, it's either very hard or unplayable.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@Shao.7236 said:@"Sir Vincent III.1286"

There's no point in trying to tell you anything it seems, I'm advocating for a nerf that benefits everyone while you're focused on the sole fact I main Revenant as I said in every single posts that Daredevil dominates any condition builds more than my own alone with the least effort and for those that actually know how to play it they are immortal, that includes me just casually pulling out my Thief without any practice, easily countering Builds that are banned in tournaments by just harassing.

I just showed you that Scourge doesn't have the same problem that you are having with the Revenant, which makes your claim that "Daredevil dominates any condition builds" false.

... there's no condition build in the game that can apply more than at best 5 stacks of any damaging condition in 1 hit in all telegraphed manner but Thief itself.

Again, your claim is false. My Scourge can apply 5 stacks of burning in one hit in addition to Torment, Vulnerability, and Cripple. Not to mention, I can reapply them right away when cleansed. That's the problem with Revenant condition build, it cannot replenish cleansed conditions. Which is an argument I've already made that you conveniently ignored.

It would be an actual pleasure to show you how Revenant is done with and without an objective to sit on in PvP instead of saying like everyone else that has such a biased mentality to every other class freedom that Revenant is fundamentally useless, I'd actually care to see how you fair up against anything in the highest tiers of the players to prove the point that Revenant is the only issue when again that's clearly not my entire statement. WvW is not a place to evaluate any competitive aspects in the slightest when everyone runs glass and the stats are beyond broken in design without a structure, it's chaotic and unfun for those that care about influence.

"everyone runs glass" -- again, another false statement. How many time you have to lie in order to push your agenda? You're making one false assumption after another.

Revenant is a mess and very restrictive when it comes to build diversity. That is a fact that you're not willing to accept.

Scourge was and always just like ANY Necromancer build very easy to counter with any form of consistent CC as they themselves have NO invulnerable frames or reliable instant mobility like other professions, you're lead to believe it was this good because Firebrands would pocket them but those too have been nerfed significally and people are still asking for more which is uncalled for. Ever since the shift of skills where people started to use Wurm or Spectral Walk was the moment where Scourge was actually balanced in contrast of the other classes, now it has a higher skill ceiling than anything else in the game including my own builds because peoples outcry was so freaking bad, bad to the so called Condi DD level of complain which is actually fine and doesn't need to be nerfed anymore either, only the later to stop the easy gameplay.

What's this irrelevant argument? The nerf on Scourge was not about not having counter, rather the fact that the profession has a large zone control. With its ability to apply insane amount of conditions, it got nerfed to limit its range. Even the Daredevil was having a hard time fighting within the zone. Thus the Scourge now has to choose whether to activate their Shroud skill around themselves or around the Shade. It doesn't really change anything when it comes to condition application and re-application.

God, were talking about a class that can back out constantly out of fight and attacks are evade based, should the player be more focused to properly use those evades and passively benefit from them in a rewarding manner that doesn't utterly annihilate everything else in the game that's condition based when "good" players have at it, we're clearly not playing the same game.

Dodging your pathetic attacks to cleanse condition is a "rewarding manner" -- you're free to disagree.

Edit: To think you want to buff condition revenant is a terrible idea, it doesn't need one and we don't need another build among the rest that's too easy to play as they already are.

I never said that Condition Revenant needs a buff...that's all on you. I said it needs to get fixed because it's a mess and lacking options. You just like making false assumptions.

TL;DR:Me: The sky is clear todayYou: OMG, why would you want dark clouds!