New nerfs to Mirage - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

New nerfs to Mirage

2>

Comments

  • @Daishi.6027 said:

    @Engal.6359 said:

    @Daishi.6027 said:

    Also Power Mirage needs buffs.

    Why? At least in pvp it's pretty balanced atm.

    Not compared to any medium armor (where it's literally replaceable in slot), or war, or condi weaver. And is significantly less defining in a team fight than Rev, FB, or Necro.

    It's inferior to it's condi counterpart, even after it gets nerfed because reliable consistent damage you can apply while dodging will always trump one shot burts vs anyone who can read. While Core mes does better simply because it can hide the burst better.

    I'd argue Power Mirage Might be balanced if this is the standard to which we are basing a truly "balanced" spec that EVERY OTHER class should use as an example to scale by. Hopefully therefore being balanced after everything is finally cut down and brought in line... But I don't consider general under performance to be "balanced".

    Nah Power mirage is fine, you can actually dish out consistent reliable damage on it too thanks to gs ambush, and only switch to sword when you need to finish your ennemy with a shatter or need to play defensively. I agree that it doesn't need any nerf, but it doesn't need any buff either. Especially if everything that's op is getting nerfed (except herald for some reason). If you really want to buff it maybe bring back the vigor duration from critical infusion to 5s, as a condi mirage playing without precision would not get much value out of that buff, and a condi mirage with precision and the dueling traitline is not that tanky (so not the worst offender among the condi mirages). I don't think that's necessary though (but i'll admit, i would be glad to see deceptive evasion nerfed and the rest of the dueling traitline buffed).

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gryxis.6950 said:

    @Daishi.6027 said:

    @Engal.6359 said:

    @Daishi.6027 said:

    Also Power Mirage needs buffs.

    Why? At least in pvp it's pretty balanced atm.

    Not compared to any medium armor (where it's literally replaceable in slot), or war, or condi weaver. And is significantly less defining in a team fight than Rev, FB, or Necro.

    It's inferior to it's condi counterpart, even after it gets nerfed because reliable consistent damage you can apply while dodging will always trump one shot burts vs anyone who can read. While Core mes does better simply because it can hide the burst better.

    I'd argue Power Mirage Might be balanced if this is the standard to which we are basing a truly "balanced" spec that EVERY OTHER class should use as an example to scale by. Hopefully therefore being balanced after everything is finally cut down and brought in line... But I don't consider general under performance to be "balanced".

    Nah Power mirage is fine, you can actually dish out consistent reliable damage on it too thanks to gs ambush, and only switch to sword when you need to finish your ennemy with a shatter or need to play defensively. I agree that it doesn't need any nerf, but it doesn't need any buff either. Especially if everything that's op is getting nerfed (except herald for some reason). If you really want to buff it maybe bring back the vigor duration from critical infusion to 5s, as a condi mirage playing without precision would not get much value out of that buff, and a condi mirage with precision and the dueling traitline is not that tanky (so not the worst offender among the condi mirages). I don't think that's necessary though (but i'll admit, i would be glad to see deceptive evasion nerfed and the rest of the dueling traitline buffed).

    dueling traitline is one of the only good traitlines, instead of making changes to traitline that is used in every single mesmer build in existance, how about we do changes to unusable meme traitlines that are super trash, or niche. looking at you inspiration, domination, and illusions.

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Deceptive Evasion reliance is also pretty annoying when it comes to build options.

    Currently it's not a case of DE being too good - it's more a case that without DE certain things are borderline unplayable - for example axe.

    I'd go as far as saying the few things that can function without DE are things like zerk shatter due to being able to deal most damage frontloaded from eg GS2/F1, or Scepter condi builds due to being able to generate clones.
    Most things outside of those one-trick kittens are night and day without DE.

    I don't know how to remedy this other than creating other clone generating options in other traitlines (thematic to each trait line) and balancing all of mesmer around having 3 clones as often as possible - reduce instantaneous burst potential and spread damage out across more skills.

    Or shift a huge amount of damage and utility across the entire class on to the player such that the reliance on clones for anything significant is reduced.

    My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Curunen.8729 said:
    Deceptive Evasion reliance is also pretty annoying when it comes to build options.

    Currently it's not a case of DE being too good - it's more a case that without DE certain things are borderline unplayable - for example axe.

    I'd go as far as saying the few things that can function without DE are things like zerk shatter due to being able to deal most damage frontloaded from eg GS2/F1, or Scepter condi builds due to being able to generate clones.
    Most things outside of those one-trick kittens are night and day without DE.

    I don't know how to remedy this other than creating other clone generating options in other traitlines (thematic to each trait line) and balancing all of mesmer around having 3 clones as often as possible - reduce instantaneous burst potential and spread damage out across more skills.

    Or shift a huge amount of damage and utility across the entire class on to the player such that the reliance on clones for anything significant is reduced.

    is deceptive evasion even used for anything other then procing IH? the moment it stops doing that its not only not gonna be good for the synergy, its gonna create ANTISYNERGY that if you have 3 clones, and you dodge, the freshly spawned clone will replace ambushing clone, meaning you can never get 3clone ambush off.
    and since thats the only reason to use this trait, nerfing it in such a way removes it from the game preety much.

    For power builds its not a big deal since superiority complex is a very good trait in itself, but condi of any kind would get screwed since Ineptitude is garbage trait, that should be minor and not a grandmaster, tfu.

    Im of the opinion that instead of giving us more clone generating traits, that can just become as stupid as deceptive evasion, we sould get utility ways of generating clones.
    like what the kitten is phantasmal disenchanter or defender even supposed to do?
    50s cd for 1s taunt on 1s cast time, who in their right mind made this???
    phantasmal disenchanter sucks too, ofc both of those have to be bad becouse chrono with its kitten CS and chronophantasma exists.

    Phantasmal Disenchanter should be changed/buffed untill its usable
    Phantasmal Defender should be changed/buffed untill its usable
    Lesser Phantasmal Defender along with entire inspiration needs to be made usable.

    Decoy and Mirror Images should be just merged together, we could get new utility in their place.
    and dont even get me started on how bad our elites are, yikes.

  • @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    dueling traitline is one of the only good traitlines, instead of making changes to traitline that is used in every single mesmer build in existance, how about we do changes to unusable meme traitlines that are super trash, or niche. looking at you inspiration, domination, and illusions.

    I disagree, the domination is not trash at all. And while it's not exactly compatible with every mesmer skill, saying it is niche is a bit of a stretch. And while inspiration and illusions aren't strong traitlines, they're still definitely usuablue.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    is deceptive evasion even used for anything other then procing IH? the moment it stops doing that its not only not gonna be good for the synergy, its gonna create ANTISYNERGY that if you have 3 clones, and you dodge, the freshly spawned clone will replace ambushing clone, meaning you can never get 3clone ambush off.
    and since thats the only reason to use this trait, nerfing it in such a way removes it from the game preety much.

    Maybe anet could make it so that the clone that is supposed to disappear because of the 3 clones limit does its ambush before disappearing. I don't think it would be impossible to code, and it would make it possible to make this trait feel less underwhelming without nerfing it into oblivion. And as i said, while I do think deceptive evasion should be nerfed, I think that some other things on the mesmer traitlines should be buffed aswell, so that there might be more build diversity and dueling might not be mandatory for mirage.

  • @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    Im of the opinion that instead of giving us more clone generating traits, that can just become as stupid as deceptive evasion, we sould get utility ways of generating clones.
    like what the kitten is phantasmal disenchanter or defender even supposed to do?
    50s cd for 1s taunt on 1s cast time, who in their right mind made this???

    Especially since it almost never hits

    phantasmal disenchanter sucks too, ofc both of those have to be bad becouse chrono with its kitten CS and chronophantasma exists.

    Phantasmal Disenchanter should be changed/buffed untill its usable
    Phantasmal Defender should be changed/buffed untill its usable

    The biggest change i want to see on those two is to make them more reliable, and if you ask me that's the only buff phantasmal disenchanter need, because it's a huge boon rip and it bounces, so it's already useful). The defender needs more buffs than that though.

    Lesser Phantasmal Defender along with entire inspiration needs to be made usable.

    I think it's important to be careful with the inspiration traitline though, it can easily make condi mirage feel extremely overwhelming again if buffed too much. But I agree that many traits on this traitline are straight trash.

    Decoy and Mirror Images should be just merged together, we could get new utility in their place.

    Mirror Images is fine, it's good clone generation which can be useful on builds that do not use deceptive evasion. Decoy is trash though and i see very little reason why anyone would take it over signet of midnight.

    and dont even get me started on how bad our elites are, yikes.

    Agreed, I wonder everyday why one of our elites is a worst version of a toolbet skill (toss elixir S)

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 13, 2019

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Curunen.8729 said:
    Deceptive Evasion reliance is also pretty annoying when it comes to build options.

    Currently it's not a case of DE being too good - it's more a case that without DE certain things are borderline unplayable - for example axe.

    I'd go as far as saying the few things that can function without DE are things like zerk shatter due to being able to deal most damage frontloaded from eg GS2/F1, or Scepter condi builds due to being able to generate clones.
    Most things outside of those one-trick kittens are night and day without DE.

    I don't know how to remedy this other than creating other clone generating options in other traitlines (thematic to each trait line) and balancing all of mesmer around having 3 clones as often as possible - reduce instantaneous burst potential and spread damage out across more skills.

    Or shift a huge amount of damage and utility across the entire class on to the player such that the reliance on clones for anything significant is reduced.

    is deceptive evasion even used for anything other then procing IH? the moment it stops doing that its not only not gonna be good for the synergy, its gonna create ANTISYNERGY that if you have 3 clones, and you dodge, the freshly spawned clone will replace ambushing clone, meaning you can never get 3clone ambush off.
    and since thats the only reason to use this trait, nerfing it in such a way removes it from the game preety much.

    For power builds its not a big deal since superiority complex is a very good trait in itself, but condi of any kind would get screwed since Ineptitude is garbage trait, that should be minor and not a grandmaster, tfu.

    Im of the opinion that instead of giving us more clone generating traits, that can just become as stupid as deceptive evasion, we sould get utility ways of generating clones.
    like what the kitten is phantasmal disenchanter or defender even supposed to do?
    50s cd for 1s taunt on 1s cast time, who in their right mind made this???
    phantasmal disenchanter sucks too, ofc both of those have to be bad becouse chrono with its kitten CS and chronophantasma exists.

    Phantasmal Disenchanter should be changed/buffed untill its usable
    Phantasmal Defender should be changed/buffed untill its usable
    Lesser Phantasmal Defender along with entire inspiration needs to be made usable.

    Decoy and Mirror Images should be just merged together, we could get new utility in their place.
    and dont even get me started on how bad our elites are, yikes.

    For the last point - yeah Decoy and Mirror Images really suffered since the removal of the cooldown trait - particularly decoy which should be a bit lower. Mirror Images also takes the prize for most useless detarget - kind of a joke when the clones spawn right next to you (I like the concept but could be modified to a purely defensive version of Illusionary Ambush, spread out the clones a bit in a radius etc).

    True it is somewhat to do with IH synergy, although maybe I'm somewhat jaded from Axe that DE is almost mandatory to get smooth and efficient play - from fast combo into axe 3, or reliance on clones to apply significant damage. I am sick of being tied down to Duelling for this single trait.

    Staff likewise - I've tried without and when clones get cleaved down so fast it makes it a real pain to do anything useful offensively or defensively, even with shatters.

    I think bottom line they should really shift a lot of damage back to the player and use clones for visual distraction, trait procs, shatter fodder and indirect buffs of player utility/strength.

    My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 14, 2019

    Curunen is spot on. Apart from one trick pony builds everything revolves around good clone generation and those atm come only with DE.
    ANerf tried to solve this once with IR but nerfed it as soon as the usual qqers began their weeping.
    They tried to solved it with self-deception and failed miserably, trait is trash and deceptions are trash.
    We already have alternatives but they need a good buff.
    Would be good if they made other options on core trait lines, I don't know like for every x vuln you apply you spawn a clone on dom, of course they need something to ensure you can't trait more than 1 clone generation trait on core otherwise it would be nuts.
    They've created a trash mechanic and can't find a way to balanced it so it seems we're forever stuck with DE.

    To address on some other points.
    It's not that duel is good, it's not, you just need it to reach grandmaster, minor fury, bleeding on condi builds, other traits are garbage.

    Power mirage sustain damage is trash even if you've gs ambush.

    The degenerate

  • @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    Curunen is spot on. Apart from one trick pony builds everything revolves around good clone generation and those atm come only with DE.
    ANerf tried to solve this once with IR but nerfed it as soon as the usual qqers began their weeping.
    They tried to solved it with self-deception and failed miserably, trait is trash and deceptions are trash.

    The trait is trash but deceptions aren't. False oasis is one of the strongest heal in the game, and illusionary ambush is a really strong ability. Mirage advance, sand through glass and jaunt could benefit from a slight buff but they're still interesting abilities and definitely usuable. Crystal Sands is one of the worst ability in the game tho i'll give you that.

    We already have alternatives but they need a good buff.
    Would be good if they made other options on core trait lines, I don't know like for every x vuln you apply you spawn a clone on dom, of course they need something to ensure you can't trait more than 1 clone generation trait on core otherwise it would be nuts.

    Would be either too strong on mirage or too weak on core mesmer and chrono. I apply 24 stacks of vuln to up to 3 targets each time i dodge on greatsword so that's 72 max per dodge. Core mesmer and chrono have no way of keeping up. Maybe with an icd of 2 seconds (not less as the gs ambush takes 1.5s to cast).

    They've created a trash mechanic and can't find a way to balanced it so it seems we're forever stuck with DE.

    To address on some other points.
    It's not that duel is good, it's not, you just need it to reach grandmaster, minor fury, bleeding on condi builds, other traits are garbage.

    Power mirage sustain damage is trash even if you've gs ambush.

    I'm not arguing that the sustain damage from gs is the best out there, but a gs ambush deals from 4k to 8k depending on if you have your 3 clones, if you still have a lot of might from previous gs ambushes and if the enemy didn't cleanse his vuln yet. 8k is a lot on something you can do multiple times, especially considering that you have up to 3 targets (and if you do, you'll get might faster). Also, the phantasmal berserkers do a lot of damage if traited with imagined burden and empowered illusions, while the cooldown isn't that high (16s). It can definitely one shot a thief. That with gs 2 allows you to still have pressure for when you don't have your ambush ready. Also, you do about 400 hundred per second from bleeding (1k to 1.5k if you are against someone who do not cleanse his conditions) because gs clones and phantasms crits more often than any other clones, and you almost always have might on yourself boosting your condi damage. It might not sound that high but it's still on top of the power damage you already do. The main drawback to that is that you're forced to run domi duel mirage and it makes you really vulnerable to burst and conditions, but if you run illusionary ambush you should easily be able to avoid getting insta killed in a fight.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gryxis.6950 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    Curunen is spot on. Apart from one trick pony builds everything revolves around good clone generation and those atm come only with DE.
    ANerf tried to solve this once with IR but nerfed it as soon as the usual qqers began their weeping.
    They tried to solved it with self-deception and failed miserably, trait is trash and deceptions are trash.

    The trait is trash but deceptions aren't. False oasis is one of the strongest heal in the game, and illusionary ambush is a really strong ability. Mirage advance, sand through glass and jaunt could benefit from a slight buff but they're still interesting abilities and definitely usuable. Crystal Sands is one of the worst ability in the game tho i'll give you that.

    We already have alternatives but they need a good buff.
    Would be good if they made other options on core trait lines, I don't know like for every x vuln you apply you spawn a clone on dom, of course they need something to ensure you can't trait more than 1 clone generation trait on core otherwise it would be nuts.

    Would be either too strong on mirage or too weak on core mesmer and chrono. I apply 24 stacks of vuln to up to 3 targets each time i dodge on greatsword so that's 72 max per dodge. Core mesmer and chrono have no way of keeping up. Maybe with an icd of 2 seconds (not less as the gs ambush takes 1.5s to cast).

    They've created a trash mechanic and can't find a way to balanced it so it seems we're forever stuck with DE.

    To address on some other points.
    It's not that duel is good, it's not, you just need it to reach grandmaster, minor fury, bleeding on condi builds, other traits are garbage.

    Power mirage sustain damage is trash even if you've gs ambush.

    I'm not arguing that the sustain damage from gs is the best out there, but a gs ambush deals from 4k to 8k depending on if you have your 3 clones, if you still have a lot of might from previous gs ambushes and if the enemy didn't cleanse his vuln yet. 8k is a lot on something you can do multiple times, especially considering that you have up to 3 targets (and if you do, you'll get might faster). Also, the phantasmal berserkers do a lot of damage if traited with imagined burden and empowered illusions, while the cooldown isn't that high (16s). It can definitely one shot a thief. That with gs 2 allows you to still have pressure for when you don't have your ambush ready. Also, you do about 400 hundred per second from bleeding (1k to 1.5k if you are against someone who do not cleanse his conditions) because gs clones and phantasms crits more often than any other clones, and you almost always have might on yourself boosting your condi damage. It might not sound that high but it's still on top of the power damage you already do. The main drawback to that is that you're forced to run domi duel mirage and it makes you really vulnerable to burst and conditions, but if you run illusionary ambush you should easily be able to avoid getting insta killed in a fight.

    keep in mind that if you ambush with 3 clones to apply vulnerability, and thus gain clones.... well you have 3 clones already dont you ? + if you ambush with 3 clones it creates antisynergy that clone would get summoned, and thus replaced during ambush, canceling it out.

  • @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    keep in mind that if you ambush with 3 clones to apply vulnerability, and thus gain clones.... well you have 3 clones already dont you ? + if you ambush with 3 clones it creates antisynergy that clone would get summoned, and thus replaced during ambush, canceling it out.

    I know that, which is why i was wondering if anet could maybe make the clone finish his ambush before disappearing by tweaking the code

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gryxis.6950 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    keep in mind that if you ambush with 3 clones to apply vulnerability, and thus gain clones.... well you have 3 clones already dont you ? + if you ambush with 3 clones it creates antisynergy that clone would get summoned, and thus replaced during ambush, canceling it out.

    I know that, which is why i was wondering if anet could maybe make the clone finish his ambush before disappearing by tweaking the code

    that would take effort, dont think we can expecting something as valuable as that.

  • Lincolnbeard.1735Lincolnbeard.1735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gryxis.6950 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:
    Curunen is spot on. Apart from one trick pony builds everything revolves around good clone generation and those atm come only with DE.
    ANerf tried to solve this once with IR but nerfed it as soon as the usual qqers began their weeping.
    They tried to solved it with self-deception and failed miserably, trait is trash and deceptions are trash.

    The trait is trash but deceptions aren't. False oasis is one of the strongest heal in the game, and illusionary ambush is a really strong ability. Mirage advance, sand through glass and jaunt could benefit from a slight buff but they're still interesting abilities and definitely usuable. Crystal Sands is one of the worst ability in the game tho i'll give you that.

    We already have alternatives but they need a good buff.
    Would be good if they made other options on core trait lines, I don't know like for every x vuln you apply you spawn a clone on dom, of course they need something to ensure you can't trait more than 1 clone generation trait on core otherwise it would be nuts.

    Would be either too strong on mirage or too weak on core mesmer and chrono. I apply 24 stacks of vuln to up to 3 targets each time i dodge on greatsword so that's 72 max per dodge. Core mesmer and chrono have no way of keeping up. Maybe with an icd of 2 seconds (not less as the gs ambush takes 1.5s to cast).

    They've created a trash mechanic and can't find a way to balanced it so it seems we're forever stuck with DE.

    To address on some other points.
    It's not that duel is good, it's not, you just need it to reach grandmaster, minor fury, bleeding on condi builds, other traits are garbage.

    Power mirage sustain damage is trash even if you've gs ambush.

    I'm not arguing that the sustain damage from gs is the best out there, but a gs ambush deals from 4k to 8k depending on if you have your 3 clones, if you still have a lot of might from previous gs ambushes and if the enemy didn't cleanse his vuln yet. 8k is a lot on something you can do multiple times, especially considering that you have up to 3 targets (and if you do, you'll get might faster). Also, the phantasmal berserkers do a lot of damage if traited with imagined burden and empowered illusions, while the cooldown isn't that high (16s). It can definitely one shot a thief. That with gs 2 allows you to still have pressure for when you don't have your ambush ready. Also, you do about 400 hundred per second from bleeding (1k to 1.5k if you are against someone who do not cleanse his conditions) because gs clones and phantasms crits more often than any other clones, and you almost always have might on yourself boosting your condi damage. It might not sound that high but it's still on top of the power damage you already do. The main drawback to that is that you're forced to run domi duel mirage and it makes you really vulnerable to burst and conditions, but if you run illusionary ambush you should easily be able to avoid getting insta killed in a fight.

    Apart from false oasis, everything is trash including illusionary ambush, it was good when it was 20sec cd, for 35 sec cd there are better alternatives.
    Mirage advance could be good with no cast time or quickness on cast and range upgrade, as it is not only is it trash but it's also clunky.
    StG range is a joke (I know Curunen like the range) and the evade time is a mock at mesmers, similar skills on other professions put this one to shame.
    The only reason people use Jaunt is because other alternatives, apart from MI, are garbage.

    No way you can kill anything with moderate sustain with power mirage unless you land a good shatter, people will just outheal your damage, that's why ANerf can't nerf power burst unless they give sustain damage in return.

    The degenerate

  • @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    Apart from false oasis, everything is trash including illusionary ambush, it was good when it was 20sec cd, for 35 sec cd there are better alternatives.

    When it was a 20s cd it wasn't just good it was overpowered. Illusionary ambush is one of the best skill there is against any class that deals area damage around them (such as reaper, holo, axe warrior). And unless you start acting in a way that shows you appart a lot from you clones, it usually lets you have quite a few seconds where your ennemy is not attacking you. Just don't use it unless you have at least two clones, otherwise the detargeting won't have much value.

    Mirage advance could be good with no cast time or quickness on cast and range upgrade, as it is not only is it trash but it's also clunky.

    Mirage advance with no cast time would be too strong, it's a two times tp which blinds, deals damage and detargets. I agree that a range upgrade would be nice, considering i use it with gs it feels a bit weird to have to get closer to use it, but what i think would be an interesting buff is if it was a reveal, as detarget skills gets countered hard by stealth. I feel like you're using trash a bit too easily

    StG range is a joke (I know Curunen like the range) and the evade time is a mock at mesmers, similar skills on other professions put this one to shame.

    The evade time is a mock ? You do realise that Sand Through Glass isn't a singular evade, it pops up a mirage mirror. Combining the both makes it a 1.25s evade. Evade skills usually have the evade lasting 3/4s, sometimes one whole second. I do realize that the second evade from Sand Through Glass has its drawbacks as you need to go through the mirror to do that but you have 8 seconds to do so, and most utility skills that let you evade (and breakstun) have a higher cooldown.

    The only reason people use Jaunt is because other alternatives, apart from MI, are garbage.

    Not the only reason, but yeah i agree that every mesmer elite (barring gravity well) do need a buff.

    No way you can kill anything with moderate sustain with power mirage unless you land a good shatter, people will just outheal your damage, that's why ANerf can't nerf power burst unless they give sustain damage in return.

    I rarely need to shatter to kill someone on my mirage. In fact I invested not a single trait on my shatter skills (besides distorsion) so I tend to avoid using shatters unless my ennemy is at around 25% hp. One ambush that I did set up well (so if i have around 12 might and if my ennemy still has 24 stacks of vuln on him) deals almost as much damage as a 3 clones shatter on my build (maybe 1.5 to 2k less ?). I can even kill a full tank firebrand on my own as long as he is not kiting behind walls.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Gryxis.6950 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    Apart from false oasis, everything is trash including illusionary ambush, it was good when it was 20sec cd, for 35 sec cd there are better alternatives.

    When it was a 20s cd it wasn't just good it was overpowered. Illusionary ambush is one of the best skill there is against any class that deals area damage around them (such as reaper, holo, axe warrior). And unless you start acting in a way that shows you appart a lot from you clones, it usually lets you have quite a few seconds where your ennemy is not attacking you. Just don't use it unless you have at least two clones, otherwise the detargeting won't have much value.

    Mirage advance could be good with no cast time or quickness on cast and range upgrade, as it is not only is it trash but it's also clunky.

    Mirage advance with no cast time would be too strong, it's a two times tp which blinds, deals damage and detargets. I agree that a range upgrade would be nice, considering i use it with gs it feels a bit weird to have to get closer to use it, but what i think would be an interesting buff is if it was a reveal, as detarget skills gets countered hard by stealth. I feel like you're using trash a bit too easily

    StG range is a joke (I know Curunen like the range) and the evade time is a mock at mesmers, similar skills on other professions put this one to shame.

    The evade time is a mock ? You do realise that Sand Through Glass isn't a singular evade, it pops up a mirage mirror. Combining the both makes it a 1.25s evade. Evade skills usually have the evade lasting 3/4s, sometimes one whole second. I do realize that the second evade from Sand Through Glass has its drawbacks as you need to go through the mirror to do that but you have 8 seconds to do so, and most utility skills that let you evade (and breakstun) have a higher cooldown.

    The only reason people use Jaunt is because other alternatives, apart from MI, are garbage.

    Not the only reason, but yeah i agree that every mesmer elite (barring gravity well) do need a buff.

    No way you can kill anything with moderate sustain with power mirage unless you land a good shatter, people will just outheal your damage, that's why ANerf can't nerf power burst unless they give sustain damage in return.

    I rarely need to shatter to kill someone on my mirage. In fact I invested not a single trait on my shatter skills (besides distorsion) so I tend to avoid using shatters unless my ennemy is at around 25% hp. One ambush that I did set up well (so if i have around 12 might and if my ennemy still has 24 stacks of vuln on him) deals almost as much damage as a 3 clones shatter on my build (maybe 1.5 to 2k less ?). I can even kill a full tank firebrand on my own as long as he is not kiting behind walls.

    Illusionary ambush would be good if it was reliable, as it stands condis and things mid air will folow you, and they damage delt might just snap to the place you tp, giving you away. you cant realistically expect it to fool anyone, if it does its cool but you cant expect it to do it.

    Mirage_Advance cast time needs to go down to 1/4s or it needs to srsl up the damage. as it stands its just UTTER GARBAGE while comparing to abilities of other classes.
    just compare it to bull charge. Less damage, lower cooldown, built in evade as an extra, stun instead of a blind and it buff damage, thats what you lose in turn you can port back.

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sand_Through_Glass just compare it to https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bandit's_Defense .
    bigger cooldown, less reliable, doesnt get glichy, works when you need it too. on top of tht you have folow up 2s knockdown.

    And please, teach me how you just kill firebrand solo on pmirage, how do you put 24stacks of vuln on him? how do you even sustain the damage he dishes out.
    I legit Land every single ability on glass cannon and they can sustain its damage, 3clone shatter, gs2 in melee entire berserker. Its always burst them down from 70% to 0% or they heal to full, apply weakness and prot, and then spam chip damage untill you are forced to leave.

  • Kondor.2904Kondor.2904 Member ✭✭✭

    @Gryxis.6950 said:

    @Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

    Apart from false oasis, everything is trash including illusionary ambush, it was good when it was 20sec cd, for 35 sec cd there are better alternatives.

    When it was a 20s cd it wasn't just good it was overpowered. Illusionary ambush is one of the best skill there is against any class that deals area damage around them (such as reaper, holo, axe warrior). And unless you start acting in a way that shows you appart a lot from you clones, it usually lets you have quite a few seconds where your ennemy is not attacking you. Just don't use it unless you have at least two clones, otherwise the detargeting won't have much value.

    20 seconds was indeed cheezy, 35 is overkill though, for a skill that very often straight up fails and does not port you at all. And when it does work it can port you into someone's aoe or some tiny corner far from your initial target. It also does not remove stun, although you do get an evade. Cooldown increase was warranted but not up to 35 seconds for something so chaotic and unpredictable.

    And by the way, there's a keybind that allows you to 100% target the real mesmer every time he detargets or goes out of stealth.

    StG range is a joke (I know Curunen like the range) and the evade time is a mock at mesmers, similar skills on other professions put this one to shame.

    The evade time is a mock ? You do realise that Sand Through Glass isn't a singular evade, it pops up a mirage mirror. Combining the both makes it a 1.25s evade. Evade skills usually have the evade lasting 3/4s, sometimes one whole second. I do realize that the second evade from Sand Through Glass has its drawbacks as you need to go through the mirror to do that but you have 8 seconds to do so, and most utility skills that let you evade (and breakstun) have a higher cooldown.

    StG has very low priority and weird interaction with axe. You can't activate it while doing some actions, so the action gets interrupted and you get your evade right when you need it, similar to decoy. It makes the skill unreliable and clunky to use too.

    No way you can kill anything with moderate sustain with power mirage unless you land a good shatter, people will just outheal your damage, that's why ANerf can't nerf power burst unless they give sustain damage in return.

    I rarely need to shatter to kill someone on my mirage. In fact I invested not a single trait on my shatter skills (besides distorsion) so I tend to avoid using shatters unless my ennemy is at around 25% hp. One ambush that I did set up well (so if i have around 12 might and if my ennemy still has 24 stacks of vuln on him) deals almost as much damage as a 3 clones shatter on my build (maybe 1.5 to 2k less ?). I can even kill a full tank firebrand on my own as long as he is not kiting behind walls.

    So you mean if he is essentially afk ? But nonetheless, I would really want to see a clip where you kill a support firebrand around plat2-3 EU in a 1v1 on power mesmer without using shatters (i doubt they will choose to stand afk tho). :)

  • Curunen.8729Curunen.8729 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 15, 2019

    Regarding Illusionary Ambush - this one also is subject to the state of balance surrounding clone uptime.

    Unlike a number of other utilities, the effectiveness of IA scales hugely with number of active clones. With zero, the whole detarget is useless and it simply becomes a ranged random (keyword - because you cannot predict positioning) teleport with built in "dodge".

    I'd argue even with one or two clones it's not justifying the new 35s cooldown. With 3 clones it's borderline, just about useable (though I strongly argue it should have been 30s in line with Blink and Signet of Midnight).

    Sure, Self Deception is there intended to remedy this potential problem, but just like Illusionary Reversion it's simply not good enough as a trait following the nerfs to Jaunt and IA - even if for some reason you run all deceptions on utilities, heal, elite...

    If following the pvp notes, clone generation is targeted for nerfs I'm not sure about the knock on effects on this and other complex interactions.
    And then this brings back to the underlying problem of so many issues - distribution of damage and utility between player and illusions.

    It's a long path for change, though I hope the new direction over the coming year starts to make those changes to encourage variety, fun, and a little more thoughtful play than at present.

    My ears, how are you! | Kourna Jackrabbit for default Springer

  • @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    Illusionary ambush would be good if it was reliable, as it stands condis and things mid air will folow you, and they damage delt might just snap to the place you tp, giving you away. you cant realistically expect it to fool anyone, if it does its cool but you cant expect it to do it.

    I've been playing with illusionary ambush for over a year now and it does fool people. I do agree that it's not necessarily the most reliable skill (especially when it tps you just on top of your enemy) but it is still a rather good skill, despite it not being the most reliable

    Mirage_Advance cast time needs to go down to 1/4s or it needs to srsl up the damage. as it stands its just UTTER GARBAGE while comparing to abilities of other classes.
    just compare it to bull charge. Less damage, lower cooldown, built in evade as an extra, stun instead of a blind and it buff damage, thats what you lose in turn you can port back.

    once again, saying it is utter garbage is a huge reach. Also your comparison is kinda biaised. You loose damage, build in evade and stun instead of a blind to get back a port back at a higher range than bull's charge (the port back is at 1.2k range), to have a lower cast time, a lower cooldown and a detarget. Put it like that it sounds way less garbage, doesn't it

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sand_Through_Glass just compare it to https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bandit's_Defense .
    bigger cooldown, less reliable, doesnt get glichy, works when you need it too. on top of tht you have folow up 2s knockdown.

    A block is weaker than an evade. However I do agree that sand through glass is glitchy when it shouldn't be. And you don't have a lot of ability like Bandit's defense.

    And please, teach me how you just kill firebrand solo on pmirage, how do you put 24stacks of vuln on him? how do you even sustain the damage he dishes out.
    I legit Land every single ability on glass cannon and they can sustain its damage, 3clone shatter, gs2 in melee entire berserker. Its always burst them down from 70% to 0% or they heal to full, apply weakness and prot, and then spam chip damage untill you are forced to leave.

    A single dodge is enough to put 24 stacks of vuln on anyone, as long as you have 3 clones. Against a firebrand, it's not really that hard to have 3 clones. I don't try to kill them in a few seconds, i keep applying pressure with my ambushes and shatter when my berserkers are out of cd and when they used most of their defensive abilities, i switch to sword, spam ambush and shatters to rip their boons and i can usually kill them there. I do have to admit that I have to shatter against firebrands (unless they're not playing tank).

    @Kondor.2904 said:

    20 seconds was indeed cheezy, 35 is overkill though, for a skill that very often straight up fails and does not port you at all. And when it does work it can port you into someone's aoe or some tiny corner far from your initial target. It also does not remove stun, although you do get an evade. Cooldown increase was warranted but not up to 35 seconds for something so chaotic and unpredictable.

    I'm not saying that it always works, because it doesn't, but still most of the time there is no issue with this skill. And it doesn't need to remove stun. I would be in favor though of lowering the cooldown to 30s, but not lower.

    And by the way, there's a keybind that allows you to 100% target the real mesmer every time he detargets or goes out of stealth.

    Never saw someone use that keybind, not in pvp nor in wvw. Or maybe someone used it but I didn't notice it because that skill always gave me some time.

    StG has very low priority and weird interaction with axe. You can't activate it while doing some actions, so the action gets interrupted and you get your evade right when you need it, similar to decoy. It makes the skill unreliable and clunky to use too.

    I do agree with that.

    So you mean if he is essentially afk ? But nonetheless, I would really want to see a clip where you kill a support firebrand around plat2-3 EU in a 1v1 on power mesmer without using shatters (i doubt they will choose to stand afk tho). :)

    I have to admit that I have to use shatters against support firebrand. I don't think I made it clear but I wanted to say that I can kill most builds without my shatter (but not every build) and if I was able to do that it means that saying power mirage sustained damage is trash is a bit of an exageration.

    @Curunen.8729 said:

    Sure, Self Deception is there intended to remedy this potential problem, but just like Illusionary Reversion it's simply not good enough as a trait following the nerfs to Jaunt and IA - even if for some reason you run all deceptions on utilities, heal, elite...

    Definitely. I run four deceptions (false oasis, illusionary ambush, mirage advance and jaunt) and I still wouldn't use that trait. I do not get why it doesn't lower deception's cooldowns like most traits improving skill types already do.