Double Firebrand Double Herald

[Monkey See.1498]

This composition just won both EU and NA Monthly Automated Tournaments.

Maybe this is just me but I aways thought one of the main points of game balance was to increase build diversity and representation to make the game more exciting to play and watch.

Instead after the last two years of balance, nerfs, buffs, reworks, we've ended in a place where there is significantly far less class diversity than when Path of Fire first dropped.

How is balance and diversity some how worse now after years of balancing than when PoF came out?

[Sikieiki.7403]

ΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞΞ

[Marxx.5021]

There has never been real PvP balancing. There is PvE balancing which wants to give all classes a usefull role against PvE encounter - raids in particular. Just tweaking some numbers to make it work in PvP doesn't give good PvP balance. Especially if class spec design is 100% PvE driven.

[SeikeNz.3526]

this means nothing, this just means fb and herald synergy too well as a team and cover each other weakness, lets say that herald have the perfect attack and fb have the perfect area defense but they can share to each other, so they turn into the perfect team, this is a team game, now some chars have everything in one like holos/warriors/thiefs have the almost perfect attack and defense alone but they lose to a perfect team work, i always laugh when people call to 1v1 implying they are doing something for the team.

you can see this difference on pve, if you pick a boonbeast and a normal ranger with full atk, the boonbeast will be a god solo, but if you pick both and put in a party with a support fb, the ranger with full atk will do double damage because the boonbeast dont synergy with the support.

this is the true support role, make others classes shine with their full potential and the only viable support right now is fb.

a class is op when they can ignore the support role and shine alone.

holos - almost perfect atk, mobility, defense, ccs, everything... where is the trade off?warriors - almost perfect atk, mobility, defense, ccs, everything... where is the trade off?thiefs/elites - perfect atk, perfect mobility, defense(evasion) where is the trade off? low hp means nothing when you can evade everything.

they are perfect alone, but this is a team game, then you have the fb the only viable support that can turn balanced classes in bosses so they can fight that team of op classes and even do better.

so 1 fb(only support)+1 balanced class is better than 2 holos.

then we can ask what that team of op classes do so they don't synergy too well with the fb? BOONS

[Gamble.4580]

To be fair the people who won would of won on any 5 com set up.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@SeikeNz.3526 said:this means nothing, this just means fb and herald synergy too well as a team and cover each other weakness, lets say that herald have the perfect attack and fb have the perfect area defense but they can share to each other, so they turn into the perfect team, this is a team game, now some chars have everything in one like holos/warriors/thiefs have the almost perfect attack and defense alone but they lose to a perfect team work, i always laugh when people call to 1v1 implying they are doing something for the team.

you can see this difference on pve, if you pick a boonbeast and a normal ranger with full atk, the boonbeast will be a god solo, but if you pick both and put in a party with a support fb, the ranger with full atk will do double damage because the boonbeast dont synergy with the support.

this is the true support role, make others classes shine with their full potential and the only viable support right now is fb.

a class is op when they can ignore the support role and shine alone.

holos - almost perfect atk, mobility, defense, ccs, everything... where is the trade off?warriors - almost perfect atk, mobility, defense, ccs, everything... where is the trade off?thiefs/elites - perfect atk, perfect mobility, defense(evasion) where is the trade off? low hp means nothing when you can evade everything

then im gonna ask you, what is the tradeoff to fb? everything needs a weakness to exploit.when I look at warrior for all the flaws it has it has a weaknesses, it doesnt have small cleanses, only shake it off full clear so it struggles against weakness ( whoops FB can spam it ). it also has big hits, rampage, gs charge,bullscharge,arcing. 1 hit, big impact. so it struggles against blinds and aegis ( whoops FB has alot of them and it vomits it in aoe )Why does FB get to hardcounter every build? you take zerker deadeye to burst it? spam projbloc domes.Warrior wants to ram you down? weakness,blind,aegis.Cmirage focuses you down and all ins you? pulsing resistance, projblock dome.

The only weakness I can see to FB is lack of mobility, does it even have to move all that much? if you have 2 of them 1 on each node, and if you have coms you know when your oponents will be going so you can move in advance.

[SeikeNz.3526]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@SeikeNz.3526 said:this means nothing, this just means fb and herald synergy too well as a team and cover each other weakness, lets say that herald have the perfect attack and fb have the perfect area defense but they can share to each other, so they turn into the perfect team, this is a team game, now some chars have everything in one like holos/warriors/thiefs have the almost perfect attack and defense alone but they lose to a perfect team work, i always laugh when people call to 1v1 implying they are doing something for the team.

you can see this difference on pve, if you pick a boonbeast and a normal ranger with full atk, the boonbeast will be a god solo, but if you pick both and put in a party with a support fb, the ranger with full atk will do double damage because the boonbeast dont synergy with the support.

this is the true support role, make others classes shine with their full potential and the only viable support right now is fb.

a class is op when they can ignore the support role and shine alone.

holos - almost perfect atk, mobility, defense, ccs, everything... where is the trade off?warriors - almost perfect atk, mobility, defense, ccs, everything... where is the trade off?thiefs/elites - perfect atk, perfect mobility, defense(evasion) where is the trade off? low hp means nothing when you can evade everything

then im gonna ask you, what is the tradeoff to fb? everything needs a weakness to exploit.when I look at warrior for all the flaws it has it has a weaknesses, it doesnt have small cleanses, only shake it off full clear so it struggles against weakness ( whoops FB can spam it ). it also has big hits, rampage, gs charge,bullscharge,arcing. 1 hit, big impact. so it struggles against blinds and aegis ( whoops FB has alot of them and it vomits it in aoe )Why does FB get to hardcounter every build? you take zerker deadeye to burst it? spam projbloc domes.Warrior wants to ram you down? weakness,blind,aegis.Cmirage focuses you down and all ins you? pulsing resistance, projblock dome.

The only weakness I can see to FB is lack of mobility, does it even have to move all that much? if you have 2 of them 1 on each node, and if you have coms you know when your oponents will be going so you can move in advance.

well mobility is the most important factor on this game, so yeah mobility is a very good weakness, fb don't hardcounter every build, they can defend themselves and their team from hits, because that's what they do as a support.just because they have everything at their disposal does not mean they are equiped with it, there's a utility slot limit you know?when fb is at f3 they are only at defense, they can't attack but they will shine at defense of coursewhen fb is at f2 they are only healers, they can't atk but they will shine at heal of coursewhen fb is at f1 they are vulnerable and die in 2 hits from the power creep since they have 11k base hp and low mobility

if they waste their tomes they are vulnerable for more than one minute

the only thing that is overshining fb right now it's the symbol builds, but it's the guardian problem not fb it'self

[Eurantien.4632]

This comp did not win NA. Double rev one firebrand did. Though many teams did run double firebrand.

[Ragnar.4257]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"SeikeNz.3526" said:this means nothing, this just means fb and herald synergy too well as a team and cover each other weakness, lets say that herald have the perfect attack and fb have the perfect area defense but they can share to each other, so they turn into the perfect team, this is a team game, now some chars have everything in one like holos/warriors/thiefs have the almost perfect attack and defense alone but they lose to a perfect team work, i always laugh when people call to 1v1 implying they are doing something for the team.

you can see this difference on pve, if you pick a boonbeast and a normal ranger with full atk, the boonbeast will be a god solo, but if you pick both and put in a party with a support fb, the ranger with full atk will do double damage because the boonbeast dont synergy with the support.

this is the true support role, make others classes shine with their full potential and the only viable support right now is fb.

a class is op when they can ignore the support role and shine alone.

holos - almost perfect atk, mobility, defense, ccs, everything... where is the trade off?warriors - almost perfect atk, mobility, defense, ccs, everything... where is the trade off?thiefs/elites - perfect atk, perfect mobility, defense(evasion) where is the trade off? low hp means nothing when you can evade everything

then im gonna ask you, what is the tradeoff to fb? everything needs a weakness to exploit.when I look at warrior for all the flaws it has it has a weaknesses, it doesnt have small cleanses, only shake it off full clear so it struggles against weakness ( whoops FB can spam it ). it also has big hits, rampage, gs charge,bullscharge,arcing. 1 hit, big impact. so it struggles against blinds and aegis ( whoops FB has alot of them and it vomits it in aoe )Why does FB get to hardcounter every build? you take zerker deadeye to burst it? spam projbloc domes.Warrior wants to ram you down? weakness,blind,aegis.Cmirage focuses you down and all ins you? pulsing resistance, projblock dome.

The only weakness I can see to FB is lack of mobility, does it even have to move all that much? if you have 2 of them 1 on each node, and if you have coms you know when your oponents will be going so you can move in advance.

Warrior has cleanse every 5 seconds on weapon-swap. That's stronger "small cleanses" than most other builds. Certainly stronger than FB.

SeikeNz's explanation is pretty good. A team of 5 FBs will get easily rotated around, and struggle to produce the burst damage to ever kill anything. A team of 5 Heralds will struggle to sustain any fight longer than 10 seconds. When you combine them together they cover each other's weaknesses very well.

Nevermind the fact that double-Herald has been meta for a year or more, even before nerfs to Mirage and Scourge which are their natural counters, and before anyone had ever heard of a Symbolbrand. FB doesn't really have anything to do with why double-Herald is a strong pick. It's because double-Herald has by far the best toolkit for a team on voice-comms to quickly move around the map, pick a target, teleport and 1-spike it. Thief can stick to a target just as well, but doesn't have the same damage output. Warriors, Holos, Soulbeasts, can produce the same damage pressure, but can't stick to a target as effectively. Heralds are also great at converting a 1/2 kill teamfight win in to a full team-wipe, by not allowing enemy to escape.

A Symbolbrand is basically hard-countered by any ranged build. Be it a rifle Deadeye, longbow/axe Soulbeast, or condi Mirage. The Symbolbrand can force them off a point initially and spam blocks/reflects for ~10 seconds, but if the ranged plays smart and keeps poking, they will eventually win, because eventually the blocks and dodges will run out, and the Symbolbrand has no way of chasing and counter-pressuring, meaning the ranged can simply free-cast. The playstyle is, in many ways, similar to Reaper. You don't beat a Reaper by face-tanking its shroud. You kite for 10 seconds, let it waste all its cooldowns, and then its a free kill.Speaking as someone who has primarily played FB for the last ~6 months, those 3 ranged classes are the ones that I fear the most when I'm going in to a 1v1. Because, yeah, I can force them off the point initially, but in the long-game they will always win eventually. I would always much rather face a Holo or Reaper or Spellbreaker, who I can actually counter-pressure. The only player I have a 100% loss-rate against is Faeleth on deadeye.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"SeikeNz.3526" said:this means nothing, this just means fb and herald synergy too well as a team and cover each other weakness, lets say that herald have the perfect attack and fb have the perfect area defense but they can share to each other, so they turn into the perfect team, this is a team game, now some chars have everything in one like holos/warriors/thiefs have the almost perfect attack and defense alone but they lose to a perfect team work, i always laugh when people call to 1v1 implying they are doing something for the team.

you can see this difference on pve, if you pick a boonbeast and a normal ranger with full atk, the boonbeast will be a god solo, but if you pick both and put in a party with a support fb, the ranger with full atk will do double damage because the boonbeast dont synergy with the support.

this is the true support role, make others classes shine with their full potential and the only viable support right now is fb.

a class is op when they can ignore the support role and shine alone.

holos - almost perfect atk, mobility, defense, ccs, everything... where is the trade off?warriors - almost perfect atk, mobility, defense, ccs, everything... where is the trade off?thiefs/elites - perfect atk, perfect mobility, defense(evasion) where is the trade off? low hp means nothing when you can evade everything

then im gonna ask you, what is the tradeoff to fb? everything needs a weakness to exploit.when I look at warrior for all the flaws it has it has a weaknesses, it doesnt have small cleanses, only shake it off full clear so it struggles against weakness ( whoops FB can spam it ). it also has big hits, rampage, gs charge,bullscharge,arcing. 1 hit, big impact. so it struggles against blinds and aegis ( whoops FB has alot of them and it vomits it in aoe )Why does FB get to hardcounter every build? you take zerker deadeye to burst it? spam projbloc domes.Warrior wants to ram you down? weakness,blind,aegis.Cmirage focuses you down and all ins you? pulsing resistance, projblock dome.

The only weakness I can see to FB is lack of mobility, does it even have to move all that much? if you have 2 of them 1 on each node, and if you have coms you know when your oponents will be going so you can move in advance.

Warrior has cleanse every 5 seconds on weapon-swap. That's stronger "small cleanses" than most other builds. Certainly stronger than FB.

SeikeNz's explanation is pretty good. A team of 5 FBs will get easily rotated around, and struggle to produce the burst damage to ever kill anything. A team of 5 Heralds will struggle to sustain any fight longer than 10 seconds. When you combine them together they cover each other's weaknesses very well.

Nevermind the fact that double-Herald has been meta for a year or more, even before nerfs to Mirage and Scourge which are their natural counters, and before anyone had ever heard of a Symbolbrand. FB doesn't really have anything to do with why double-Herald is a strong pick. It's because double-Herald has by far the best toolkit for a team on voice-comms to quickly move around the map, pick a target, teleport and 1-spike it. Thief can stick to a target just as well, but doesn't have the same damage output. Warriors, Holos, Soulbeasts, can produce the same damage pressure, but can't stick to a target as effectively. Heralds are also great at converting a 1/2 kill teamfight win in to a full team-wipe, by not allowing enemy to escape.

A Symbolbrand is basically hard-countered by any ranged build. Be it a rifle Deadeye, longbow/axe Soulbeast, or condi Mirage. The Symbolbrand can force them off a point initially and spam blocks/reflects for ~10 seconds, but if the ranged plays smart and keeps poking, they will eventually win, because eventually the blocks and dodges will run out, and the Symbolbrand has no way of chasing and counter-pressuring, meaning the ranged can simply free-cast. The playstyle is, in many ways, similar to Reaper. You don't beat a Reaper by face-tanking its shroud. You kite for 10 seconds, let it waste all its cooldowns, and then its a free kill.Speaking as someone who has primarily played FB for the last ~6 months, those 3 ranged classes are the ones that I fear the most when I'm going in to a 1v1. Because, yeah, I can force them off the point initially, but in the long-game they will always win eventually. I would always much rather face a Holo or Reaper or Spellbreaker, who I can actually counter-pressure. The only player I have a 100% loss-rate against is Faeleth on deadeye.

There are fights where my glass cannon power mesmer, attacks brand wor literarly 30s nonstop, they out heal block/evade/invuln all my damage, easly outheal it.dont know what ranged you mean to take them on, keep in mind that when you keep attacking him and only him for 10-15s, he brings vault to EVERY TEAMMATE in the area.With rev I agree, its super strong, and nerfing everything but the rev and FB is just gonna make us see them in every game.If there are 6 builds that are over the top and considered meta, and you nerf 3 or 4 of them, it solves nothing.Unless the 2 remaining builds can be hard countered it will revolve around those 2 only. I can honestly see 3 FB, 2 herald teams, or just 2 FB, 2herald and 1 mesmer just for stealth to just gut someone out of stealth. or mb thief to portal to obj, depending on maps.FB is in a same spot scourge was, it just makes other specs not be played, dont know what should be done about it but something should. No rush.

[Lighter.5631]

fb and rev are op i'm surprised how these werent nerfed in next balance patch, i've posted about both like 1 month ago

[mrauls.6519]

Maybe it's time to nerf support in PvP... Maybe

[Ragnar.4257]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"SeikeNz.3526" said:this means nothing, this just means fb and herald synergy too well as a team and cover each other weakness, lets say that herald have the perfect attack and fb have the perfect area defense but they can share to each other, so they turn into the perfect team, this is a team game, now some chars have everything in one like holos/warriors/thiefs have the almost perfect attack and defense alone but they lose to a perfect team work, i always laugh when people call to 1v1 implying they are doing something for the team.

you can see this difference on pve, if you pick a boonbeast and a normal ranger with full atk, the boonbeast will be a god solo, but if you pick both and put in a party with a support fb, the ranger with full atk will do double damage because the boonbeast dont synergy with the support.

this is the true support role, make others classes shine with their full potential and the only viable support right now is fb.

a class is op when they can ignore the support role and shine alone.

holos - almost perfect atk, mobility, defense, ccs, everything... where is the trade off?warriors - almost perfect atk, mobility, defense, ccs, everything... where is the trade off?thiefs/elites - perfect atk, perfect mobility, defense(evasion) where is the trade off? low hp means nothing when you can evade everything

then im gonna ask you, what is the tradeoff to fb? everything needs a weakness to exploit.when I look at warrior for all the flaws it has it has a weaknesses, it doesnt have small cleanses, only shake it off full clear so it struggles against weakness ( whoops FB can spam it ). it also has big hits, rampage, gs charge,bullscharge,arcing. 1 hit, big impact. so it struggles against blinds and aegis ( whoops FB has alot of them and it vomits it in aoe )Why does FB get to hardcounter every build? you take zerker deadeye to burst it? spam projbloc domes.Warrior wants to ram you down? weakness,blind,aegis.Cmirage focuses you down and all ins you? pulsing resistance, projblock dome.

The only weakness I can see to FB is lack of mobility, does it even have to move all that much? if you have 2 of them 1 on each node, and if you have coms you know when your oponents will be going so you can move in advance.

Warrior has cleanse every 5 seconds on weapon-swap. That's stronger "small cleanses" than most other builds. Certainly stronger than FB.

SeikeNz's explanation is pretty good. A team of 5 FBs will get easily rotated around, and struggle to produce the burst damage to ever kill anything. A team of 5 Heralds will struggle to sustain any fight longer than 10 seconds. When you combine them together they cover each other's weaknesses very well.

Nevermind the fact that double-Herald has been meta for a year or more, even before nerfs to Mirage and Scourge which are their natural counters, and before anyone had ever heard of a Symbolbrand. FB doesn't really have anything to do with why double-Herald is a strong pick. It's because double-Herald has by far the best toolkit for a team on voice-comms to quickly move around the map, pick a target, teleport and 1-spike it. Thief can stick to a target just as well, but doesn't have the same damage output. Warriors, Holos, Soulbeasts, can produce the same damage pressure, but can't stick to a target as effectively. Heralds are also great at converting a 1/2 kill teamfight win in to a full team-wipe, by not allowing enemy to escape.

A Symbolbrand is basically hard-countered by any ranged build. Be it a rifle Deadeye, longbow/axe Soulbeast, or condi Mirage. The Symbolbrand can force them off a point initially and spam blocks/reflects for ~10 seconds, but if the ranged plays smart and keeps poking, they will eventually win, because eventually the blocks and dodges will run out, and the Symbolbrand has no way of chasing and counter-pressuring, meaning the ranged can simply free-cast. The playstyle is, in many ways, similar to Reaper. You don't beat a Reaper by face-tanking its shroud. You kite for 10 seconds, let it waste all its cooldowns, and then its a free kill.Speaking as someone who has primarily played FB for the last ~6 months, those 3 ranged classes are the ones that I fear the most when I'm going in to a 1v1. Because, yeah, I can force them off the point initially, but in the long-game they will always win eventually. I would always much rather face a Holo or Reaper or Spellbreaker, who I can actually counter-pressure. The only player I have a 100% loss-rate against is Faeleth on deadeye.

There are fights where my glass cannon power mesmer, attacks brand wor literarly 30s nonstop, they out heal block/evade/invuln all my damage, easly outheal it.dont know what ranged you mean to take them on, keep in mind that when you keep attacking him and only him for 10-15s, he brings vault to EVERY TEAMMATE in the area.With rev I agree, its super strong, and nerfing everything but the rev and FB is just gonna make us see them in every game.If there are 6 builds that are over the top and considered meta, and you nerf 3 or 4 of them, it solves nothing.Unless the 2 remaining builds can be hard countered it will revolve around those 2 only. I can honestly see 3 FB, 2 herald teams, or just 2 FB, 2herald and 1 mesmer just for stealth to just gut someone out of stealth. or mb thief to portal to obj, depending on maps.FB is in a same spot scourge was, it just makes other specs not be played, dont know what should be done about it but something should. No rush.

Okay, you're conflating 2 issues here.

One is Symbolbrand's 1v1 capability, what does it counter 1v1, what counters it.

The other is FB's position in a 5-man team and a teamfight.

In a 1v1 situation, I've already explained above.

In a team situation, I agree, trying to pewpew isn't a solution. The solution is different. It is either to 1-pop the FB with your double-Herald (which, if you watch MATs, you will often see that the FB is the first one to go down, exactly like this), OR, you use superior mobility to outnumber the FB's team elsewhere on the map, and snowball, leaving FB uselessly running slowly between points (which, again, if you watch MATs you will often see exactly this).

I don't disagree that FB needs tuning down, as does pretty much everything introduced since HoT. But you are exaggerating and being hyperbolic in some of your complaints. FB isn't a god-mode that counters everything, you can play smart and out-maneuver it.

[Monkey See.1498]

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"SeikeNz.3526" said:this means nothing, this just means fb and herald synergy too well as a team and cover each other weakness, lets say that herald have the perfect attack and fb have the perfect area defense but they can share to each other, so they turn into the perfect team, this is a team game, now some chars have everything in one like holos/warriors/thiefs have the almost perfect attack and defense alone but they lose to a perfect team work, i always laugh when people call to 1v1 implying they are doing something for the team.

you can see this difference on pve, if you pick a boonbeast and a normal ranger with full atk, the boonbeast will be a god solo, but if you pick both and put in a party with a support fb, the ranger with full atk will do double damage because the boonbeast dont synergy with the support.

this is the true support role, make others classes shine with their full potential and the only viable support right now is fb.

a class is op when they can ignore the support role and shine alone.

holos - almost perfect atk, mobility, defense, ccs, everything... where is the trade off?warriors - almost perfect atk, mobility, defense, ccs, everything... where is the trade off?thiefs/elites - perfect atk, perfect mobility, defense(evasion) where is the trade off? low hp means nothing when you can evade everything

then im gonna ask you, what is the tradeoff to fb? everything needs a weakness to exploit.when I look at warrior for all the flaws it has it has a weaknesses, it doesnt have small cleanses, only shake it off full clear so it struggles against weakness ( whoops FB can spam it ). it also has big hits, rampage, gs charge,bullscharge,arcing. 1 hit, big impact. so it struggles against blinds and aegis ( whoops FB has alot of them and it vomits it in aoe )Why does FB get to hardcounter every build? you take zerker deadeye to burst it? spam projbloc domes.Warrior wants to ram you down? weakness,blind,aegis.Cmirage focuses you down and all ins you? pulsing resistance, projblock dome.

The only weakness I can see to FB is lack of mobility, does it even have to move all that much? if you have 2 of them 1 on each node, and if you have coms you know when your oponents will be going so you can move in advance.

Warrior has cleanse every 5 seconds on weapon-swap. That's stronger "small cleanses" than most other builds. Certainly stronger than FB.

SeikeNz's explanation is pretty good. A team of 5 FBs will get easily rotated around, and struggle to produce the burst damage to ever kill anything. A team of 5 Heralds will struggle to sustain any fight longer than 10 seconds. When you combine them together they cover each other's weaknesses very well.

Nevermind the fact that double-Herald has been meta for a year or more, even before nerfs to Mirage and Scourge which are their natural counters, and before anyone had ever heard of a Symbolbrand. FB doesn't really have anything to do with why double-Herald is a strong pick. It's because double-Herald has by far the best toolkit for a team on voice-comms to quickly move around the map, pick a target, teleport and 1-spike it. Thief can stick to a target just as well, but doesn't have the same damage output. Warriors, Holos, Soulbeasts, can produce the same damage pressure, but can't stick to a target as effectively. Heralds are also great at converting a 1/2 kill teamfight win in to a full team-wipe, by not allowing enemy to escape.

A Symbolbrand is basically hard-countered by any ranged build. Be it a rifle Deadeye, longbow/axe Soulbeast, or condi Mirage. The Symbolbrand can force them off a point initially and spam blocks/reflects for ~10 seconds, but if the ranged plays smart and keeps poking, they will eventually win, because eventually the blocks and dodges will run out, and the Symbolbrand has no way of chasing and counter-pressuring, meaning the ranged can simply free-cast. The playstyle is, in many ways, similar to Reaper. You don't beat a Reaper by face-tanking its shroud. You kite for 10 seconds, let it waste all its cooldowns, and then its a free kill.Speaking as someone who has primarily played FB for the last ~6 months, those 3 ranged classes are the ones that I fear the most when I'm going in to a 1v1. Because, yeah, I can force them off the point initially, but in the long-game they will always win eventually. I would always much rather face a Holo or Reaper or Spellbreaker, who I can actually counter-pressure. The only player I have a 100% loss-rate against is Faeleth on deadeye.

There are fights where my glass cannon power mesmer, attacks brand wor literarly 30s nonstop, they out heal block/evade/invuln all my damage, easly outheal it.dont know what ranged you mean to take them on, keep in mind that when you keep attacking him and only him for 10-15s, he brings vault to EVERY TEAMMATE in the area.With rev I agree, its super strong, and nerfing everything but the rev and FB is just gonna make us see them in every game.If there are 6 builds that are over the top and considered meta, and you nerf 3 or 4 of them, it solves nothing.Unless the 2 remaining builds can be hard countered it will revolve around those 2 only. I can honestly see 3 FB, 2 herald teams, or just 2 FB, 2herald and 1 mesmer just for stealth to just gut someone out of stealth. or mb thief to portal to obj, depending on maps.FB is in a same spot scourge was, it just makes other specs not be played, dont know what should be done about it but something should. No rush.

Okay, you're conflating 2 issues here.

One is Symbolbrand's 1v1 capability, what does it counter 1v1, what counters it.

The other is FB's position in a 5-man team and a teamfight.

In a 1v1 situation, I've already explained above.

In a team situation, I agree, trying to pewpew isn't a solution. The solution is different. It is either to 1-pop the FB with your double-Herald (which, if you watch MATs, you will often see that the FB is the first one to go down, exactly like this), OR, you use superior mobility to outnumber the FB's team elsewhere on the map, and snowball, leaving FB uselessly running slowly between points (which, again, if you watch MATs you will often see exactly this).

I don't disagree that FB needs tuning down, as does pretty much everything introduced since HoT. But you are exaggerating and being hyperbolic in some of your complaints. FB isn't a god-mode that counters everything, you can play smart and out-maneuver it.

Imagine defending class stacking this much.

When you're seeing class stacking to the degree you're seeing in in AT's something has gone incredibly wrong balance wise. When you start seeing multiple of the same specialization showing up and doing super well on a team and even winning a MAT balance of that specialization has officially reached a point of being indefensible. We aren't having problems with other things introduced since HoT. Herald IS a HoT Specialization. When it comes to PoF it's reached a point where it's mostly JUST firebrand at this point. You aren't seeing double mirage. You aren't seeing double spellbreakers. You aren't seeing double scourge. You aren't seeing double soulbeast. In fact, you aren't seeing any of them anymore. You're seeing people stack Firebrand and Heralds, occasionally a core necro, holosmith, and thief/daredevil and those aren't being stacked they're being slotted as the 5th into 2Firebrand+2Herald teams.

[Falan.1839]

And yet people are constantly whining about holo...

[Stand The Wall.6987]

its easy, buff necro

[Ragnar.4257]

@Monkey See.1498 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"SeikeNz.3526" said:this means nothing, this just means fb and herald synergy too well as a team and cover each other weakness, lets say that herald have the perfect attack and fb have the perfect area defense but they can share to each other, so they turn into the perfect team, this is a team game, now some chars have everything in one like holos/warriors/thiefs have the almost perfect attack and defense alone but they lose to a perfect team work, i always laugh when people call to 1v1 implying they are doing something for the team.

you can see this difference on pve, if you pick a boonbeast and a normal ranger with full atk, the boonbeast will be a god solo, but if you pick both and put in a party with a support fb, the ranger with full atk will do double damage because the boonbeast dont synergy with the support.

this is the true support role, make others classes shine with their full potential and the only viable support right now is fb.

a class is op when they can ignore the support role and shine alone.

holos - almost perfect atk, mobility, defense, ccs, everything... where is the trade off?warriors - almost perfect atk, mobility, defense, ccs, everything... where is the trade off?thiefs/elites - perfect atk, perfect mobility, defense(evasion) where is the trade off? low hp means nothing when you can evade everything

then im gonna ask you, what is the tradeoff to fb? everything needs a weakness to exploit.when I look at warrior for all the flaws it has it has a weaknesses, it doesnt have small cleanses, only shake it off full clear so it struggles against weakness ( whoops FB can spam it ). it also has big hits, rampage, gs charge,bullscharge,arcing. 1 hit, big impact. so it struggles against blinds and aegis ( whoops FB has alot of them and it vomits it in aoe )Why does FB get to hardcounter every build? you take zerker deadeye to burst it? spam projbloc domes.Warrior wants to ram you down? weakness,blind,aegis.Cmirage focuses you down and all ins you? pulsing resistance, projblock dome.

The only weakness I can see to FB is lack of mobility, does it even have to move all that much? if you have 2 of them 1 on each node, and if you have coms you know when your oponents will be going so you can move in advance.

Warrior has cleanse every 5 seconds on weapon-swap. That's stronger "small cleanses" than most other builds. Certainly stronger than FB.

SeikeNz's explanation is pretty good. A team of 5 FBs will get easily rotated around, and struggle to produce the burst damage to ever kill anything. A team of 5 Heralds will struggle to sustain any fight longer than 10 seconds. When you combine them together they cover each other's weaknesses very well.

Nevermind the fact that double-Herald has been meta for a year or more, even before nerfs to Mirage and Scourge which are their natural counters, and before anyone had ever heard of a Symbolbrand. FB doesn't really have anything to do with why double-Herald is a strong pick. It's because double-Herald has by far the best toolkit for a team on voice-comms to quickly move around the map, pick a target, teleport and 1-spike it. Thief can stick to a target just as well, but doesn't have the same damage output. Warriors, Holos, Soulbeasts, can produce the same damage pressure, but can't stick to a target as effectively. Heralds are also great at converting a 1/2 kill teamfight win in to a full team-wipe, by not allowing enemy to escape.

A Symbolbrand is basically hard-countered by any ranged build. Be it a rifle Deadeye, longbow/axe Soulbeast, or condi Mirage. The Symbolbrand can force them off a point initially and spam blocks/reflects for ~10 seconds, but if the ranged plays smart and keeps poking, they will eventually win, because eventually the blocks and dodges will run out, and the Symbolbrand has no way of chasing and counter-pressuring, meaning the ranged can simply free-cast. The playstyle is, in many ways, similar to Reaper. You don't beat a Reaper by face-tanking its shroud. You kite for 10 seconds, let it waste all its cooldowns, and then its a free kill.Speaking as someone who has primarily played FB for the last ~6 months, those 3 ranged classes are the ones that I fear the most when I'm going in to a 1v1. Because, yeah, I can force them off the point initially, but in the long-game they will always win eventually. I would always much rather face a Holo or Reaper or Spellbreaker, who I can actually counter-pressure. The only player I have a 100% loss-rate against is Faeleth on deadeye.

There are fights where my glass cannon power mesmer, attacks brand wor literarly 30s nonstop, they out heal block/evade/invuln all my damage, easly outheal it.dont know what ranged you mean to take them on, keep in mind that when you keep attacking him and only him for 10-15s, he brings vault to EVERY TEAMMATE in the area.With rev I agree, its super strong, and nerfing everything but the rev and FB is just gonna make us see them in every game.If there are 6 builds that are over the top and considered meta, and you nerf 3 or 4 of them, it solves nothing.Unless the 2 remaining builds can be hard countered it will revolve around those 2 only. I can honestly see 3 FB, 2 herald teams, or just 2 FB, 2herald and 1 mesmer just for stealth to just gut someone out of stealth. or mb thief to portal to obj, depending on maps.FB is in a same spot scourge was, it just makes other specs not be played, dont know what should be done about it but something should. No rush.

Okay, you're conflating 2 issues here.

One is Symbolbrand's 1v1 capability, what does it counter 1v1, what counters it.

The other is FB's position in a 5-man team and a teamfight.

In a 1v1 situation, I've already explained above.

In a team situation, I agree, trying to pewpew isn't a solution. The solution is different. It is either to 1-pop the FB with your double-Herald (which, if you watch MATs, you will often see that the FB is the first one to go down, exactly like this), OR, you use superior mobility to outnumber the FB's team elsewhere on the map, and snowball, leaving FB uselessly running slowly between points (which, again, if you watch MATs you will often see exactly this).

I don't disagree that FB needs tuning down, as does pretty much everything introduced since HoT. But you are exaggerating and being hyperbolic in some of your complaints. FB isn't a god-mode that counters everything, you can play smart and out-maneuver it.

Imagine defending class stacking this much.

When you're seeing class stacking to the degree you're seeing in in AT's something has gone incredibly wrong balance wise. When you start seeing multiple of the same specialization showing up and doing

super well

on a team and even winning a MAT balance of that specialization has officially reached a point of being indefensible. We aren't having problems with other things introduced since HoT. Herald IS a HoT Specialization. When it comes to PoF it's reached a point where it's mostly JUST firebrand at this point. You aren't seeing double mirage. You aren't seeing double spellbreakers. You aren't seeing double scourge. You aren't seeing double soulbeast. In fact, you aren't seeing

any

of them anymore. You're seeing people stack Firebrand and Heralds, occasionally a core necro, holosmith, and thief/daredevil and those aren't being stacked they're being slotted as the 5th into 2Firebrand+2Herald teams.

Where am I defending class stacking?

I even explicitly said that FB needs tuning down.

I'm just debating the ridiculous hyperbole that it apparently counters EVERYTHING, when it obviously doesn't.

If something is being double-picked for AT's, it probably means it is too strong. It doesn't mean it is god-mode.

[Equinox.1463]

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Monkey See.1498 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"SeikeNz.3526" said:this means nothing, this just means fb and herald synergy too well as a team and cover each other weakness, lets say that herald have the perfect attack and fb have the perfect area defense but they can share to each other, so they turn into the perfect team, this is a team game, now some chars have everything in one like holos/warriors/thiefs have the almost perfect attack and defense alone but they lose to a perfect team work, i always laugh when people call to 1v1 implying they are doing something for the team.

you can see this difference on pve, if you pick a boonbeast and a normal ranger with full atk, the boonbeast will be a god solo, but if you pick both and put in a party with a support fb, the ranger with full atk will do double damage because the boonbeast dont synergy with the support.

this is the true support role, make others classes shine with their full potential and the only viable support right now is fb.

a class is op when they can ignore the support role and shine alone.

holos - almost perfect atk, mobility, defense, ccs, everything... where is the trade off?warriors - almost perfect atk, mobility, defense, ccs, everything... where is the trade off?thiefs/elites - perfect atk, perfect mobility, defense(evasion) where is the trade off? low hp means nothing when you can evade everything

then im gonna ask you, what is the tradeoff to fb? everything needs a weakness to exploit.when I look at warrior for all the flaws it has it has a weaknesses, it doesnt have small cleanses, only shake it off full clear so it struggles against weakness ( whoops FB can spam it ). it also has big hits, rampage, gs charge,bullscharge,arcing. 1 hit, big impact. so it struggles against blinds and aegis ( whoops FB has alot of them and it vomits it in aoe )Why does FB get to hardcounter every build? you take zerker deadeye to burst it? spam projbloc domes.Warrior wants to ram you down? weakness,blind,aegis.Cmirage focuses you down and all ins you? pulsing resistance, projblock dome.

The only weakness I can see to FB is lack of mobility, does it even have to move all that much? if you have 2 of them 1 on each node, and if you have coms you know when your oponents will be going so you can move in advance.

Warrior has cleanse every 5 seconds on weapon-swap. That's stronger "small cleanses" than most other builds. Certainly stronger than FB.

SeikeNz's explanation is pretty good. A team of 5 FBs will get easily rotated around, and struggle to produce the burst damage to ever kill anything. A team of 5 Heralds will struggle to sustain any fight longer than 10 seconds. When you combine them together they cover each other's weaknesses very well.

Nevermind the fact that double-Herald has been meta for a year or more, even before nerfs to Mirage and Scourge which are their natural counters, and before anyone had ever heard of a Symbolbrand. FB doesn't really have anything to do with why double-Herald is a strong pick. It's because double-Herald has by far the best toolkit for a team on voice-comms to quickly move around the map, pick a target, teleport and 1-spike it. Thief can stick to a target just as well, but doesn't have the same damage output. Warriors, Holos, Soulbeasts, can produce the same damage pressure, but can't stick to a target as effectively. Heralds are also great at converting a 1/2 kill teamfight win in to a full team-wipe, by not allowing enemy to escape.

A Symbolbrand is basically hard-countered by any ranged build. Be it a rifle Deadeye, longbow/axe Soulbeast, or condi Mirage. The Symbolbrand can force them off a point initially and spam blocks/reflects for ~10 seconds, but if the ranged plays smart and keeps poking, they will eventually win, because eventually the blocks and dodges will run out, and the Symbolbrand has no way of chasing and counter-pressuring, meaning the ranged can simply free-cast. The playstyle is, in many ways, similar to Reaper. You don't beat a Reaper by face-tanking its shroud. You kite for 10 seconds, let it waste all its cooldowns, and then its a free kill.Speaking as someone who has primarily played FB for the last ~6 months, those 3 ranged classes are the ones that I fear the most when I'm going in to a 1v1. Because, yeah, I can force them off the point initially, but in the long-game they will always win eventually. I would always much rather face a Holo or Reaper or Spellbreaker, who I can actually counter-pressure. The only player I have a 100% loss-rate against is Faeleth on deadeye.

There are fights where my glass cannon power mesmer, attacks brand wor literarly 30s nonstop, they out heal block/evade/invuln all my damage, easly outheal it.dont know what ranged you mean to take them on, keep in mind that when you keep attacking him and only him for 10-15s, he brings vault to EVERY TEAMMATE in the area.With rev I agree, its super strong, and nerfing everything but the rev and FB is just gonna make us see them in every game.If there are 6 builds that are over the top and considered meta, and you nerf 3 or 4 of them, it solves nothing.Unless the 2 remaining builds can be hard countered it will revolve around those 2 only. I can honestly see 3 FB, 2 herald teams, or just 2 FB, 2herald and 1 mesmer just for stealth to just gut someone out of stealth. or mb thief to portal to obj, depending on maps.FB is in a same spot scourge was, it just makes other specs not be played, dont know what should be done about it but something should. No rush.

Okay, you're conflating 2 issues here.

One is Symbolbrand's 1v1 capability, what does it counter 1v1, what counters it.

The other is FB's position in a 5-man team and a teamfight.

In a 1v1 situation, I've already explained above.

In a team situation, I agree, trying to pewpew isn't a solution. The solution is different. It is either to 1-pop the FB with your double-Herald (which, if you watch MATs, you will often see that the FB is the first one to go down, exactly like this), OR, you use superior mobility to outnumber the FB's team elsewhere on the map, and snowball, leaving FB uselessly running slowly between points (which, again, if you watch MATs you will often see exactly this).

I don't disagree that FB needs tuning down, as does pretty much everything introduced since HoT. But you are exaggerating and being hyperbolic in some of your complaints. FB isn't a god-mode that counters everything, you can play smart and out-maneuver it.

Imagine defending class stacking this much.

When you're seeing class stacking to the degree you're seeing in in AT's something has gone incredibly wrong balance wise. When you start seeing multiple of the same specialization showing up and doing

super well

on a team and even winning a MAT balance of that specialization has officially reached a point of being indefensible. We aren't having problems with other things introduced since HoT. Herald IS a HoT Specialization. When it comes to PoF it's reached a point where it's mostly JUST firebrand at this point. You aren't seeing double mirage. You aren't seeing double spellbreakers. You aren't seeing double scourge. You aren't seeing double soulbeast. In fact, you aren't seeing

any

of them anymore. You're seeing people stack Firebrand and Heralds, occasionally a core necro, holosmith, and thief/daredevil and those aren't being stacked they're being slotted as the 5th into 2Firebrand+2Herald teams.

Where am I defending class stacking?

I even explicitly said that FB needs tuning down.

I'm just debating the ridiculous hyperbole that it apparently counters EVERYTHING, when it obviously doesn't.

If something is being double-picked for AT's, it probably means it is too strong. It doesn't mean it is god-mode.

Although I do understand what you're saying, and I do agree with it, I think what others are trying to suggest is that Firebrand is the only class with that much diversity for being effective at its role.

A great 1v1er and team fighter as Symbolbrand, great support (well, realistically, the only support) as Mender's Brand (eh, that just had a nice ring to it), it can be stacked and still be effective. Compare that to Mirage, (to a certain extent) Holo, Soulbeast, (Rene-what?), Scourge, basically any other PoF spec and it won't be outshone (excepted for mobility, but if you already have two nodes, that's the only thing you need to win the game).

I do get what you mean though - it is in no way what Condition Mirage or Yolosmith used to be, ultimate god modes with basically a broken kit, but it's currently what needs to be toned down - Herald I do not think requires toning down as its synergy with any support realistically makes it worth playing because of the lack of buffs to other DPS/roamer specializations.

[Ragnar.4257]

The last MAT final 2 weeks ago featured double-thief on one team, and double-mesmer on the other team.

That means they're god-modes right? Or has the world totally changed in the last 2 weeks?

[Flandre.2870]

xxxxxxxxxx

[Ragnar.4257]

@DigiQWill.6378 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Monkey See.1498 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"SeikeNz.3526" said:this means nothing, this just means fb and herald synergy too well as a team and cover each other weakness, lets say that herald have the perfect attack and fb have the perfect area defense but they can share to each other, so they turn into the perfect team, this is a team game, now some chars have everything in one like holos/warriors/thiefs have the almost perfect attack and defense alone but they lose to a perfect team work, i always laugh when people call to 1v1 implying they are doing something for the team.

you can see this difference on pve, if you pick a boonbeast and a normal ranger with full atk, the boonbeast will be a god solo, but if you pick both and put in a party with a support fb, the ranger with full atk will do double damage because the boonbeast dont synergy with the support.

this is the true support role, make others classes shine with their full potential and the only viable support right now is fb.

a class is op when they can ignore the support role and shine alone.

holos - almost perfect atk, mobility, defense, ccs, everything... where is the trade off?warriors - almost perfect atk, mobility, defense, ccs, everything... where is the trade off?thiefs/elites - perfect atk, perfect mobility, defense(evasion) where is the trade off? low hp means nothing when you can evade everything

then im gonna ask you, what is the tradeoff to fb? everything needs a weakness to exploit.when I look at warrior for all the flaws it has it has a weaknesses, it doesnt have small cleanses, only shake it off full clear so it struggles against weakness ( whoops FB can spam it ). it also has big hits, rampage, gs charge,bullscharge,arcing. 1 hit, big impact. so it struggles against blinds and aegis ( whoops FB has alot of them and it vomits it in aoe )Why does FB get to hardcounter every build? you take zerker deadeye to burst it? spam projbloc domes.Warrior wants to ram you down? weakness,blind,aegis.Cmirage focuses you down and all ins you? pulsing resistance, projblock dome.

The only weakness I can see to FB is lack of mobility, does it even have to move all that much? if you have 2 of them 1 on each node, and if you have coms you know when your oponents will be going so you can move in advance.

Warrior has cleanse every 5 seconds on weapon-swap. That's stronger "small cleanses" than most other builds. Certainly stronger than FB.

SeikeNz's explanation is pretty good. A team of 5 FBs will get easily rotated around, and struggle to produce the burst damage to ever kill anything. A team of 5 Heralds will struggle to sustain any fight longer than 10 seconds. When you combine them together they cover each other's weaknesses very well.

Nevermind the fact that double-Herald has been meta for a year or more, even before nerfs to Mirage and Scourge which are their natural counters, and before anyone had ever heard of a Symbolbrand. FB doesn't really have anything to do with why double-Herald is a strong pick. It's because double-Herald has by far the best toolkit for a team on voice-comms to quickly move around the map, pick a target, teleport and 1-spike it. Thief can stick to a target just as well, but doesn't have the same damage output. Warriors, Holos, Soulbeasts, can produce the same damage pressure, but can't stick to a target as effectively. Heralds are also great at converting a 1/2 kill teamfight win in to a full team-wipe, by not allowing enemy to escape.

A Symbolbrand is basically hard-countered by any ranged build. Be it a rifle Deadeye, longbow/axe Soulbeast, or condi Mirage. The Symbolbrand can force them off a point initially and spam blocks/reflects for ~10 seconds, but if the ranged plays smart and keeps poking, they will eventually win, because eventually the blocks and dodges will run out, and the Symbolbrand has no way of chasing and counter-pressuring, meaning the ranged can simply free-cast. The playstyle is, in many ways, similar to Reaper. You don't beat a Reaper by face-tanking its shroud. You kite for 10 seconds, let it waste all its cooldowns, and then its a free kill.Speaking as someone who has primarily played FB for the last ~6 months, those 3 ranged classes are the ones that I fear the most when I'm going in to a 1v1. Because, yeah, I can force them off the point initially, but in the long-game they will always win eventually. I would always much rather face a Holo or Reaper or Spellbreaker, who I can actually counter-pressure. The only player I have a 100% loss-rate against is Faeleth on deadeye.

There are fights where my glass cannon power mesmer, attacks brand wor literarly 30s nonstop, they out heal block/evade/invuln all my damage, easly outheal it.dont know what ranged you mean to take them on, keep in mind that when you keep attacking him and only him for 10-15s, he brings vault to EVERY TEAMMATE in the area.With rev I agree, its super strong, and nerfing everything but the rev and FB is just gonna make us see them in every game.If there are 6 builds that are over the top and considered meta, and you nerf 3 or 4 of them, it solves nothing.Unless the 2 remaining builds can be hard countered it will revolve around those 2 only. I can honestly see 3 FB, 2 herald teams, or just 2 FB, 2herald and 1 mesmer just for stealth to just gut someone out of stealth. or mb thief to portal to obj, depending on maps.FB is in a same spot scourge was, it just makes other specs not be played, dont know what should be done about it but something should. No rush.

Okay, you're conflating 2 issues here.

One is Symbolbrand's 1v1 capability, what does it counter 1v1, what counters it.

The other is FB's position in a 5-man team and a teamfight.

In a 1v1 situation, I've already explained above.

In a team situation, I agree, trying to pewpew isn't a solution. The solution is different. It is either to 1-pop the FB with your double-Herald (which, if you watch MATs, you will often see that the FB is the first one to go down, exactly like this), OR, you use superior mobility to outnumber the FB's team elsewhere on the map, and snowball, leaving FB uselessly running slowly between points (which, again, if you watch MATs you will often see exactly this).

I don't disagree that FB needs tuning down, as does pretty much everything introduced since HoT. But you are exaggerating and being hyperbolic in some of your complaints. FB isn't a god-mode that counters everything, you can play smart and out-maneuver it.

Imagine defending class stacking this much.

When you're seeing class stacking to the degree you're seeing in in AT's something has gone incredibly wrong balance wise. When you start seeing multiple of the same specialization showing up and doing

super well

on a team and even winning a MAT balance of that specialization has officially reached a point of being indefensible. We aren't having problems with other things introduced since HoT. Herald IS a HoT Specialization. When it comes to PoF it's reached a point where it's mostly JUST firebrand at this point. You aren't seeing double mirage. You aren't seeing double spellbreakers. You aren't seeing double scourge. You aren't seeing double soulbeast. In fact, you aren't seeing

any

of them anymore. You're seeing people stack Firebrand and Heralds, occasionally a core necro, holosmith, and thief/daredevil and those aren't being stacked they're being slotted as the 5th into 2Firebrand+2Herald teams.

Where am I defending class stacking?

I even explicitly said that FB needs tuning down.

I'm just debating the ridiculous hyperbole that it apparently counters EVERYTHING, when it obviously doesn't.

If something is being double-picked for AT's, it probably means it is too strong. It doesn't mean it is god-mode.

Although I do understand what you're saying, and I do agree with it, I think what others are trying to suggest is that Firebrand is the only class with that much diversity for being effective at its role.

A great 1v1er and team fighter as Symbolbrand, great support (well, realistically, the only support) as Mender's Brand (eh, that just had a nice ring to it), it can be stacked and still be effective. Compare that to Mirage, (to a certain extent) Holo, Soulbeast, (Rene-what?), Scourge, basically any other PoF spec and it won't be outshone (excepted for mobility, but if you already have two nodes, that's the only thing you need to win the game).

I do get what you mean though - it is in no way what Condition Mirage or Yolosmith used to be, ultimate god modes with basically a broken kit, but it's currently what needs to be toned down - Herald I do not think requires toning down as its synergy with any support realistically makes it worth playing because of the lack of buffs to other DPS/roamer specializations.

Having diversity of builds is not a problem at all, it should be a target for every single profession. The fact that an elite-spec can be viably played as either a DPS or a bunker or a support is fine.

The problem is when a single build can do everything at once.

[Equinox.1463]

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@DigiQWill.6378 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Monkey See.1498 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"SeikeNz.3526" said:this means nothing, this just means fb and herald synergy too well as a team and cover each other weakness, lets say that herald have the perfect attack and fb have the perfect area defense but they can share to each other, so they turn into the perfect team, this is a team game, now some chars have everything in one like holos/warriors/thiefs have the almost perfect attack and defense alone but they lose to a perfect team work, i always laugh when people call to 1v1 implying they are doing something for the team.

you can see this difference on pve, if you pick a boonbeast and a normal ranger with full atk, the boonbeast will be a god solo, but if you pick both and put in a party with a support fb, the ranger with full atk will do double damage because the boonbeast dont synergy with the support.

this is the true support role, make others classes shine with their full potential and the only viable support right now is fb.

a class is op when they can ignore the support role and shine alone.

holos - almost perfect atk, mobility, defense, ccs, everything... where is the trade off?warriors - almost perfect atk, mobility, defense, ccs, everything... where is the trade off?thiefs/elites - perfect atk, perfect mobility, defense(evasion) where is the trade off? low hp means nothing when you can evade everything

then im gonna ask you, what is the tradeoff to fb? everything needs a weakness to exploit.when I look at warrior for all the flaws it has it has a weaknesses, it doesnt have small cleanses, only shake it off full clear so it struggles against weakness ( whoops FB can spam it ). it also has big hits, rampage, gs charge,bullscharge,arcing. 1 hit, big impact. so it struggles against blinds and aegis ( whoops FB has alot of them and it vomits it in aoe )Why does FB get to hardcounter every build? you take zerker deadeye to burst it? spam projbloc domes.Warrior wants to ram you down? weakness,blind,aegis.Cmirage focuses you down and all ins you? pulsing resistance, projblock dome.

The only weakness I can see to FB is lack of mobility, does it even have to move all that much? if you have 2 of them 1 on each node, and if you have coms you know when your oponents will be going so you can move in advance.

Warrior has cleanse every 5 seconds on weapon-swap. That's stronger "small cleanses" than most other builds. Certainly stronger than FB.

SeikeNz's explanation is pretty good. A team of 5 FBs will get easily rotated around, and struggle to produce the burst damage to ever kill anything. A team of 5 Heralds will struggle to sustain any fight longer than 10 seconds. When you combine them together they cover each other's weaknesses very well.

Nevermind the fact that double-Herald has been meta for a year or more, even before nerfs to Mirage and Scourge which are their natural counters, and before anyone had ever heard of a Symbolbrand. FB doesn't really have anything to do with why double-Herald is a strong pick. It's because double-Herald has by far the best toolkit for a team on voice-comms to quickly move around the map, pick a target, teleport and 1-spike it. Thief can stick to a target just as well, but doesn't have the same damage output. Warriors, Holos, Soulbeasts, can produce the same damage pressure, but can't stick to a target as effectively. Heralds are also great at converting a 1/2 kill teamfight win in to a full team-wipe, by not allowing enemy to escape.

A Symbolbrand is basically hard-countered by any ranged build. Be it a rifle Deadeye, longbow/axe Soulbeast, or condi Mirage. The Symbolbrand can force them off a point initially and spam blocks/reflects for ~10 seconds, but if the ranged plays smart and keeps poking, they will eventually win, because eventually the blocks and dodges will run out, and the Symbolbrand has no way of chasing and counter-pressuring, meaning the ranged can simply free-cast. The playstyle is, in many ways, similar to Reaper. You don't beat a Reaper by face-tanking its shroud. You kite for 10 seconds, let it waste all its cooldowns, and then its a free kill.Speaking as someone who has primarily played FB for the last ~6 months, those 3 ranged classes are the ones that I fear the most when I'm going in to a 1v1. Because, yeah, I can force them off the point initially, but in the long-game they will always win eventually. I would always much rather face a Holo or Reaper or Spellbreaker, who I can actually counter-pressure. The only player I have a 100% loss-rate against is Faeleth on deadeye.

There are fights where my glass cannon power mesmer, attacks brand wor literarly 30s nonstop, they out heal block/evade/invuln all my damage, easly outheal it.dont know what ranged you mean to take them on, keep in mind that when you keep attacking him and only him for 10-15s, he brings vault to EVERY TEAMMATE in the area.With rev I agree, its super strong, and nerfing everything but the rev and FB is just gonna make us see them in every game.If there are 6 builds that are over the top and considered meta, and you nerf 3 or 4 of them, it solves nothing.Unless the 2 remaining builds can be hard countered it will revolve around those 2 only. I can honestly see 3 FB, 2 herald teams, or just 2 FB, 2herald and 1 mesmer just for stealth to just gut someone out of stealth. or mb thief to portal to obj, depending on maps.FB is in a same spot scourge was, it just makes other specs not be played, dont know what should be done about it but something should. No rush.

Okay, you're conflating 2 issues here.

One is Symbolbrand's 1v1 capability, what does it counter 1v1, what counters it.

The other is FB's position in a 5-man team and a teamfight.

In a 1v1 situation, I've already explained above.

In a team situation, I agree, trying to pewpew isn't a solution. The solution is different. It is either to 1-pop the FB with your double-Herald (which, if you watch MATs, you will often see that the FB is the first one to go down, exactly like this), OR, you use superior mobility to outnumber the FB's team elsewhere on the map, and snowball, leaving FB uselessly running slowly between points (which, again, if you watch MATs you will often see exactly this).

I don't disagree that FB needs tuning down, as does pretty much everything introduced since HoT. But you are exaggerating and being hyperbolic in some of your complaints. FB isn't a god-mode that counters everything, you can play smart and out-maneuver it.

Imagine defending class stacking this much.

When you're seeing class stacking to the degree you're seeing in in AT's something has gone incredibly wrong balance wise. When you start seeing multiple of the same specialization showing up and doing

super well

on a team and even winning a MAT balance of that specialization has officially reached a point of being indefensible. We aren't having problems with other things introduced since HoT. Herald IS a HoT Specialization. When it comes to PoF it's reached a point where it's mostly JUST firebrand at this point. You aren't seeing double mirage. You aren't seeing double spellbreakers. You aren't seeing double scourge. You aren't seeing double soulbeast. In fact, you aren't seeing

any

of them anymore. You're seeing people stack Firebrand and Heralds, occasionally a core necro, holosmith, and thief/daredevil and those aren't being stacked they're being slotted as the 5th into 2Firebrand+2Herald teams.

Where am I defending class stacking?

I even explicitly said that FB needs tuning down.

I'm just debating the ridiculous hyperbole that it apparently counters EVERYTHING, when it obviously doesn't.

If something is being double-picked for AT's, it probably means it is too strong. It doesn't mean it is god-mode.

Although I do understand what you're saying, and I do agree with it, I think what others are trying to suggest is that Firebrand is the only class with that much diversity for being effective at its role.

A great 1v1er and team fighter as Symbolbrand, great support (well, realistically, the only support) as Mender's Brand (eh, that just had a nice ring to it), it can be stacked and still be effective. Compare that to Mirage, (to a certain extent) Holo, Soulbeast, (Rene-what?), Scourge, basically any other PoF spec and it won't be outshone (excepted for mobility, but if you already have two nodes, that's the only thing you need to win the game).

I do get what you mean though - it is in no way what Condition Mirage or Yolosmith used to be, ultimate god modes with basically a broken kit, but it's currently what needs to be toned down - Herald I do not think requires toning down as its synergy with any support realistically makes it worth playing because of the lack of buffs to other DPS/roamer specializations.

Having diversity of builds is not a problem at all, it should be a target for every single profession. The fact that an elite-spec can be viably played as either a DPS or a bunker or a support is fine.

The problem is when a single build can do everything at once.

That is true, and I feel rather stupid for phrasing what I meant that way.Other classes require buffs to their kits to compare to Firebrand's, or Firebrand should be lowered to other classes' level. That's basically what I tried to say. Currently, it shuts down the diversity in other classes because of its high versatility and effectiveness, a bit like Mirage back in the day. I'm not saying gut it like Chronomancer, because that would be dumdumb. I am saying that the diversity it offers also shuts down more possible diversity elsewhere, if that makes any sense at all.

[Monkey See.1498]

@Ragnar.4257 said:The last MAT final 2 weeks ago featured double-thief on one team, and double-mesmer on the other team.

That means they're god-modes right? Or has the world totally changed in the last 2 weeks?

There was a MAT yesterday. @"Flandre.2870" in this thread was one of the EU winners running double FB double Herald.

And after the "September" Monthly two weeks ago staff thief was IMMEDIATELY hot fixed to hamstring the bug they were abusing to bunk nodes so easily and there are more nerfs listed in the balance patch preview. Meanwhile the scheduled nerfs for FB and Herald are.... strangely absent from the balance preview.

[Ragnar.4257]

@Monkey See.1498 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:The last MAT final 2 weeks ago featured double-thief on one team, and double-mesmer on the other team.

That means they're god-modes right? Or has the world totally changed in the last 2 weeks?

And staff thief was IMMEDIATELY hot fixed.

And mesmer wasn't. Because it isn't actually an issue at the moment, regardless of MAT picks.

Its almost like you need to look beyond simply counting the number of professions in the most recent MAT final, and assess problems more widely.

[Monkey See.1498]

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Monkey See.1498 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:The last MAT final 2 weeks ago featured double-thief on one team, and double-mesmer on the other team.

That means they're god-modes right? Or has the world totally changed in the last 2 weeks?

And staff thief was IMMEDIATELY hot fixed.

And mesmer wasn't. Because it isn't actually an issue at the moment, regardless of MAT picks.

Its almost like you need to look beyond simply counting the number of professions in the most recent MAT final, and assess problems more widely.

Yeah it's so weird that Mirage is being igno-

@Cal Cohen.2358 said:Hi Everyone,

We’ve done some work on the next balance update and wanted to share some of the potential changes for discussion and feedback.

In particular we’re looking at:

• Condi Thief
• Holosmith
• Condi Mirage
• Rampage
• Warrior’s Cunning
• Revisiting Staff Thief

Condi MirageWe understand that Mirage Cloak is a big point of contention and we’ve been having discussions internally, but it isn’t something that we’ll be ready to action for this update. As we get closer to our desired solution we’ll start to talk about it more with you all, but in the meantime we’re looking at some more general changes. Primarily toning down clone generation and reducing some damage potential of staff, pushing it more toward a utility kit.

• Illusionary Counter: Reduced the number of clones spawned on block from 2 to 1 in PvP only
• Phantasmal Warlock:
  • Reduced the number of warlocks spawned from 2 to 1 in PvP only.
  • Increased the vulnerability applied per hit from 2 stacks to 4 stacks in PvP only
• Chaos Vortex:
  • Reduced bleed duration from 8 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP only.
  • Reduced burn duration from 2 seconds to 1 second in PvP only.
  • Reduced Torment duration from 8 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP only