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Condi Mirage post nerf


Rambo.9280

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Hello good people of the forums.

As a new player (~150 games played in total) who enjoys condi mirage I am worried that the nerfs will kill it, or at least make it super duper weak. Was hoping some of you more knowledgeable players could weigh in a bit. Since I am so new to the game I'm pretty useless when it comes to theorycrafting potential builds, could I simply swap out the nerfed staff for a different weapon set and still be decent? The condi mirage is the first build, of the handful I've tried so far, that has "clicked" with me, I'd be a bummer if right as I find a spec I like it gets nerfed into unviability.

Perhaps my worries are unfounded, I certainly hope so, I just wanted to ask you more experienced mesmer players what you thought about the future of condi mirage. So that if it will be made trash tier I can trying out some other builds or classes till I find something else I really enjoy.

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@"Rambo.9280" said:Hello good people of the forums.

As a new player (~150 games played in total) who enjoys condi mirage I am worried that the nerfs will kill it, or at least make it super duper weak. Was hoping some of you more knowledgeable players could weigh in a bit. Since I am so new to the game I'm pretty useless when it comes to theorycrafting potential builds, could I simply swap out the nerfed staff for a different weapon set and still be decent? The condi mirage is the first build, of the handful I've tried so far, that has "clicked" with me, I'd be a bummer if right as I find a spec I like it gets nerfed into unviability.

Perhaps my worries are unfounded, I certainly hope so, I just wanted to ask you more experienced mesmer players what you thought about the future of condi mirage. So that if it will be made trash tier I can trying out some other builds or classes till I find something else I really enjoy.

Hi, im no expert but I have always been good at theorycrafting in other games and trying to apply my insight here.From what I understand condimirage ( this is what you mean right ? ) is not "good becouse its good" its entire nature revolves around1 projectiles2 conditionsAnd it has no burst damage, what it means is that its not about mirage being strong, it relies on meta to be favourable for it.Cmirage is bad against firebrand, they can outsustain condis with heals, block them with proj block or cleanse them.Cmirage wont be MUCH worse after the nerfs, but what will change is meta will move to more firebrands.I personally think cmirage will be MUCH worse, not becouse of the nerfs but becouse of the meta shift.Overall staff will propably be on par with axe now? you should be fine after switching to axe/torch + scepter/pistol.Expecially since warrior and holo will be weaker ( competition nerfed ).You will gain MUCH more damage, and lose ALOT of sustain and mobility for it, it will be a tradeoff.

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So it's not as much the direct nerf to condi that's the big thing here, it's the overall meta change? That makes sense, I myself with my limited experience have noticed that firebrands tend to kitten me up the most, if the meta is swinging in a direction that makes them more prevalent it makes sense that would hurt condi mirage alot. That is unfortunate, the condi version of mesmer is the only one I found fun, I've dabbled with the power/shatter variations and to me they just weren't as fun to play. It is good to know that there will still be viable builds with different weapons tho, if I can't find another spec I like might just stick it out with that. To me the mesmer class is far and away the coolest in theme, the idea of screwing with your enemies perception of reality with clones and phantasms is just such an awesome concept.

Thanks for replying mate, I appreciate the info.

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@"Trepidation Lost.3469" said:Yeah this guy is completely wrong. If they’re changing the ambush on dodge to an f4 skill it will be useless.

instead of calling me wrong, visit https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/91447/potential-future-balance-changes-pvp#latest and educate yourself.clear as day there.

Illusionary Counter: Reduced the number of clones spawned on block from 2 to 1 in PvP onlyPhantasmal Warlock:

Reduced the number of warlocks spawned from 2 to 1 in PvP only.Increased the vulnerability applied per hit from 2 stacks to 4 stacks in PvP onlyChaos Vortex:

Reduced bleed duration from 8 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP only.Reduced burn duration from 2 seconds to 1 second in PvP only.Reduced Torment duration from 8 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP only

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@Rambo.9280 said:So it's not as much the direct nerf to condi that's the big thing here, it's the overall meta change? That makes sense, I myself with my limited experience have noticed that firebrands tend to kitten me up the most, if the meta is swinging in a direction that makes them more prevalent it makes sense that would hurt condi mirage alot. That is unfortunate, the condi version of mesmer is the only one I found fun, I've dabbled with the power/shatter variations and to me they just weren't as fun to play. It is good to know that there will still be viable builds with different weapons tho, if I can't find another spec I like might just stick it out with that. To me the mesmer class is far and away the coolest in theme, the idea of screwing with your enemies perception of reality with clones and phantasms is just such an awesome concept.

Thanks for replying mate, I appreciate the info.

For all we know 3x FB might become a thing, and cmirage will be literally useless piece of shit.If firebrand screws with you the most imagine dealing less damage and having less clones, cmirage depends on meta. Its one of the most hard counterable specs I know.FB and Thief can make you suffer big time.

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Condi mirage is probably the most nerfed class since PoF released. The fact that they are still one of the strongest pvp builds just goes to show how powerful this class still is. For instance, condi mirage damage was nerfed repeatedly until people started playing the class as a low damage cc build with the CI trait. This build was still ridiculously powerful so CI got removed from the game, and condi mirage still remains as a very strong build.

There is probably a tradeoff rework coming at some point, but for now they will most likely stay very strong.

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@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:Condi mirage is probably the most nerfed class since PoF released. The fact that they are still one of the strongest pvp builds just goes to show how powerful this class still is. For instance, condi mirage damage was nerfed repeatedly until people started playing the class as a low damage cc build with the CI trait. This build was still ridiculously powerful so CI got removed from the game, and condi mirage still remains as a very strong build.

There is probably a tradeoff rework coming at some point, but for now they will most likely stay very strong.

Mirage is the most nerfed profession in game, period. It's also the only profession who got smiter's booned treatment (EM), and the only profession who specs a bunch of useless trash to get into a specific GM trait both on mirage and dueling.

As for the very strong, I ate condi mirages for breakfest on power mirage with only 2 condi cleanses, and this was a lot of months ago when condi mirages were oh my god so op, invincible and broken, and I'm an average player.

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@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:Condi mirage is probably the most nerfed class since PoF released. The fact that they are still one of the strongest pvp builds just goes to show how powerful this class still is. For instance, condi mirage damage was nerfed repeatedly until people started playing the class as a low damage cc build with the CI trait. This build was still ridiculously powerful so CI got removed from the game, and condi mirage still remains as a very strong build.

There is probably a tradeoff rework coming at some point, but for now they will most likely stay very strong.

maybe because they never nerfed mirage only mesmers and chronos

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@SeikeNz.3526 said:

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:Condi mirage is probably the most nerfed class since PoF released. The fact that they are still one of the strongest pvp builds just goes to show how powerful this class still is. For instance, condi mirage damage was nerfed repeatedly until people started playing the class as a low damage cc build with the CI trait. This build was still ridiculously powerful so CI got removed from the game, and condi mirage still remains as a very strong build.

There is probably a tradeoff rework coming at some point, but for now they will most likely stay very strong.

maybe because they never nerfed mirage only mesmers and chronos

Imaginary Axes : Reduced the amount of torment stacks applied in PvP and WvW from 3 to 1. This skill can no longer be used on targets behind the mesmer.July 10, 2018

Inflicted torment duration has been reduced from 5 seconds to 4 seconds.May 08, 2018

The torment duration of this skill is no longer split between game modes and will now use the higher 5-second duration in all modes.February 08, 2018

Now applies torment instead of confusion. Previous durations unchanged.February 06, 2018

The confusion aspect of this skill has been split, and the confusion duration has been reduced from 5 seconds to 3 seconds in PvP and WvW only

Lingering thoughts : December 11, 2018

The ammunition-recharge time of this skill has been split between game modes and has been increased from 8 seconds to 10 seconds in PvP only.

Axes of Symmetry : March 05, 2019

Reduced this skill's damage in WvW to match the PvP version of this skill. The number of confusion stacks that this applies is now 3 in all game modes.December 11, 2018

The physical damage of this skill has been split between game modes and reduced by about 30% in PvP only.July 10, 2018

Inflicted confusion duration has been reduced from 8 seconds to 6 seconds in PvE.May 08, 2018

This skill has regained its confusion-inflicting function.Confusion remains split between game modes and will inflict 6 stacks for 3 seconds in PvP and WvW, and 3 stacks for 8 seconds in PvE, with each clone inflicting one stack of the condition.February 08, 2018

Now applies torment instead of confusion. Previous durations unchanged.February 06, 2018

The confusion aspect of this skill has been split.Confusion stacks have been reduced in WvW and PvP from 5 to 3, and their duration has been reduced from 4 seconds to 3 seconds.Clone-inflicted confusion duration has been reduced from 4 seconds to 3 seconds.November 07, 2017

This skill will now rotate the camera to face your target after the shadowstep.This skill now performs a range check before casting.Shortened maximum distance to target after shadowstep by 20%.

Ether Barrage : February 06, 2018

Torment and confusion durations have been reduced from 4 seconds to 2 seconds in PvP and WvW only.

Split Surge : March 05, 2019

This skill can no longer be used on targets behind the mesmer.

Chaos Vortex : December 11, 2018

The might granted by this skill has been changed from 3 stacks for 8 seconds to 2 stacks for 15 seconds.March 27, 2018

Fixed a bug that caused the projectile fired by this skill to have inconsistent interactions with reflection skills.February 08, 2018

Readjusted condition application on this skill to apply 1 stack of bleeding for 8 seconds, 1 stack of burning for 2 seconds, and 1 stack of torment for 8 seconds.Fixed a bug that allowed this attack to hit the same target multiple times.Probably SoonReduced bleed duration from 8 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP only.Reduced burn duration from 2 seconds to 1 second in PvP only.Reduced Torment duration from 8 seconds to 4 seconds in PvP only

Ambush Assault : March 05, 2019This skill can no longer be used on targets behind the mesmer

Illusionary Ambush : March 05, 2019Increased the recharge time of this skill from 20 seconds to 35 seconds in PvP and WvW only.

Jaunt :December 11, 2018

The number of charges this skill can hold has been split between game modes and reduced from 3 charges to 2 charges in PvP and WvW.July 10, 2018

The ammunition recharge time of this skill has now been split and will use a 30-second cooldown in PvP and WvW while maintaining a 20-second cooldown in PvE.March 27, 2018

Reduced damage by 50% in PvP and WvW.February 06, 2018

Condition duration from this skill has been split.In PvE, the confusion duration has been increased from 4 seconds to 6 seconds.In PvP and WvW, the confusion duration has been reduced from 4 seconds to 2 seconds.

Mirage Cloak : March 05, 2019

All applications of this skill's effect have had their duration reduced to match the duration of a normal dodge roll. This change does not affect the timing window for ambush skills.

Riddle Of Sand : February 06, 2018

This trait has been split, and now confusion duration has been reduced from 4 seconds to 2 seconds in PvP and WvW only.

Nomad's Endurance : August 28, 2018The vigor duration of this trait has been reduced from 3 seconds to 1.5 seconds in PvP and WvW.

Speed Of Sand : July 16, 2019

Instead of granting superspeed when dodging, this trait instead causes Mirage Cloak to grant +66% movement speed.March 05, 2019

Superspeed's duration has been reduced to match Mirage Cloak's duration.

Elusive Mind : October 02, 2018The exhaustion duration of this trait is now split between game modes and has a 6-second duration in PvP and WvW.March 27, 2018

This trait now applies 3 seconds of exhaustion when breaking a stun.

But yeah mirage istelf never got nerfed

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@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:Condi mirage is probably the most nerfed class since PoF released. The fact that they are still one of the strongest pvp builds just goes to show how powerful this class still is. For instance, condi mirage damage was nerfed repeatedly until people started playing the class as a low damage cc build with the CI trait. This build was still ridiculously powerful so CI got removed from the game, and condi mirage still remains as a very strong build.

There is probably a tradeoff rework coming at some point, but for now they will most likely stay very strong.

Mirage is the most nerfed profession in game, period. It's also the only profession who got smiter's booned treatment (EM), and the only profession who specs a bunch of useless trash to get into a specific GM trait both on mirage and dueling.

As for the very strong, I ate condi mirages for breakfest on power mirage with only 2 condi cleanses, and this was a lot of months ago when condi mirages were oh my god so op, invincible and broken, and I'm an average player.

To be fair the master tier of the mirage traitline is pretty good. And Daredevil also got the exhaustion treatment.

And just wondering, which condi cleanses were you running ? Because condi mirage is a rather hard matchup for power mirage

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@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:Condi mirage is probably the most nerfed class since PoF released. The fact that they are still one of the strongest pvp builds just goes to show how powerful this class still is. For instance, condi mirage damage was nerfed repeatedly until people started playing the class as a low damage cc build with the CI trait. This build was still ridiculously powerful so CI got removed from the game, and condi mirage still remains as a very strong build.

There is probably a tradeoff rework coming at some point, but for now they will most likely stay very strong.

Mirage is the most nerfed profession in game, period. It's also the only profession who got smiter's booned treatment (EM), and the only profession who specs a bunch of useless trash to get into a specific GM trait both on mirage and dueling.

As for the very strong, I ate condi mirages for breakfest on power mirage with only 2 condi cleanses, and this was a lot of months ago when condi mirages were oh my god so op, invincible and broken, and I'm an average player.

And i have killed decent condi mirages on a lot of builds with minimal cleansing. killing a few bad players doesnt determine the strength of a class.

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@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:Condi mirage is probably the most nerfed class since PoF released. The fact that they are still one of the strongest pvp builds just goes to show how powerful this class still is. For instance, condi mirage damage was nerfed repeatedly until people started playing the class as a low damage cc build with the CI trait. This build was still ridiculously powerful so CI got removed from the game, and condi mirage still remains as a very strong build.

There is probably a tradeoff rework coming at some point, but for now they will most likely stay very strong.

Mirage is the most nerfed profession in game, period. It's also the only profession who got smiter's booned treatment (EM), and the only profession who specs a bunch of useless trash to get into a specific GM trait both on mirage and dueling.

As for the very strong, I ate condi mirages for breakfest on power mirage with only 2 condi cleanses, and this was a lot of months ago when condi mirages were oh my god so op, invincible and broken, and I'm an average player.

And i have killed decent condi mirages on a lot of builds with minimal cleansing. killing a few bad players doesnt determine the strength of a class.

A very strong build will fair well even in the hands of a bad player.

@Gryxis.6950 said:

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:Condi mirage is probably the most nerfed class since PoF released. The fact that they are still one of the strongest pvp builds just goes to show how powerful this class still is. For instance, condi mirage damage was nerfed repeatedly until people started playing the class as a low damage cc build with the CI trait. This build was still ridiculously powerful so CI got removed from the game, and condi mirage still remains as a very strong build.

There is probably a tradeoff rework coming at some point, but for now they will most likely stay very strong.

Mirage is the most nerfed profession in game, period. It's also the only profession who got smiter's booned treatment (EM), and the only profession who specs a bunch of useless trash to get into a specific GM trait both on mirage and dueling.

As for the very strong, I ate condi mirages for breakfest on power mirage with only 2 condi cleanses, and this was a lot of months ago when condi mirages were oh my god so op, invincible and broken, and I'm an average player.

To be fair the master tier of the mirage traitline is pretty good. And Daredevil also got the exhaustion treatment.

And just wondering, which condi cleanses were you running ? Because condi mirage is a rather hard matchup for power mirage

DD can do well with exhaustion since they have ways to bypass it with endurance gaining skills, exhaustion on dd at max is 2 sec below EM.

Only Jaunt.

Edit: forgot about the master tier. Mirage Mantle is just a worse companion's defense.Desert Distortion is meh, I mean the whole mirror mechanic is garbage as it stands, there were several suggestions, even before PoF released, on how to make it actually good, devs as usual, never listen to mesmers. Even according to devs mirrors just got into game because the design of the mirror was cool.Mirror axes would be nice if they didn't behave the way they do, sometimes without wanting to, you'll break out of stealth thanks to the late axe.

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@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Gryxis.6950 said:To be fair the master tier of the mirage traitline is pretty good. And Daredevil also got the exhaustion treatment.

DD can do well with exhaustion since they have ways to bypass it with endurance gaining skills, exhaustion on dd at max is 2 sec below EM.

Furthermore, daredevil spend most time with this perma speed + better mobility trait untouched during most HoT perdiod, it gain exhaustion only at the very end.Mean I tested it in WvW back in time during HoT I was basically unkillable.Differents class, different delay before nerfs...

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@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Edit: forgot about the master tier. Mirage Mantle is just a worse companion's defense.Desert Distortion is meh, I mean the whole mirror mechanic is garbage as it stands, there were several suggestions, even before PoF released, on how to make it actually good, devs as usual, never listen to mesmers. Even according to devs mirrors just got into game because the design of the mirror was cool.Mirror axes would be nice if they didn't behave the way they do, sometimes without wanting to, you'll break out of stealth thanks to the late axe.

Mirage Mantle should be worse than companion's defense. Companion's defense only gets activated on a dodge roll, while False oasis, Sand through glass, crystal sands (even tho no one ever will use that skill) and illusionary ambush all proc mirage mantle

Desert distorsion definitely isn't meh. If you shatter 3 clones to use it you look at 4s of access to ambushes, so up to 2 ambushes on all weapons and up to 3 on sword (and trident i guess). But you also get access to three mirage mirrors, so 2.25s of dodges, plus three ambushes for you and your clones. Obviously you need to go through the mirrors for that, but jaunt makes it really easy. I guess it could be low impact if you shatter too defensively (as in you don't have enough clones up, or you are stun and won't be able to use ambush) but just because a trait does not work in any situation does not mean it's meh.

I haven't played much with mirror axes as I'm not really into the condi mirage, but the trait felt really strong to me. I can see why you wouldn't want that interaction to happen tho. Reminds me of desperate decoy which can also works against you as it cancels your skills. I still think it's a fine trait overall tho, especially since condi mirage definitely doesn't need the stealth as much as power mirage does

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@Gryxis.6950 said:

Edit: forgot about the master tier. Mirage Mantle is just a worse companion's defense.Desert Distortion is meh, I mean the whole mirror mechanic is garbage as it stands, there were several suggestions, even before PoF released, on how to make it actually good, devs as usual, never listen to mesmers. Even according to devs mirrors just got into game because the design of the mirror was cool.Mirror axes would be nice if they didn't behave the way they do, sometimes without wanting to, you'll break out of stealth thanks to the late axe.

Mirage Mantle should be worse than companion's defense. Companion's defense only gets activated on a dodge roll, while False oasis, Sand through glass, crystal sands (even tho no one ever will use that skill) and illusionary ambush all proc mirage mantle

Desert distorsion definitely isn't meh. If you shatter 3 clones to use it you look at 4s of access to ambushes, so up to 2 ambushes on all weapons and up to 3 on sword (and trident i guess). But you also get access to three mirage mirrors, so 2.25s of dodges, plus three ambushes for you and your clones. Obviously you need to go through the mirrors for that, but jaunt makes it really easy. I guess it could be low impact if you shatter too defensively (as in you don't have enough clones up, or you are stun and won't be able to use ambush) but just because a trait does not work in any situation does not mean it's meh.

I haven't played much with mirror axes as I'm not really into the condi mirage, but the trait felt really strong to me. I can see why you wouldn't want that interaction to happen tho. Reminds me of desperate decoy which can also works against you as it cancels your skills. I still think it's a fine trait overall tho, especially since condi mirage definitely doesn't need the stealth as much as power mirage does

It shouldn't. First of all Companion's defense is a minor, then comes with a free minor endurance gain upgrade.Than all those skills except FA are garbage and mirrors are garbage as well, makes you predictable af.

Not a lot of times you get 3 mirrors from DD ( I guess you can if you don't shatter offensively), but then again mirrors are trash, having to waste an ability to get into a mirror is a no no in my view.

As for the axes the problem is mainly stealth breaking.

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@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

Edit: forgot about the master tier. Mirage Mantle is just a worse companion's defense.Desert Distortion is meh, I mean the whole mirror mechanic is garbage as it stands, there were several suggestions, even before PoF released, on how to make it actually good, devs as usual, never listen to mesmers. Even according to devs mirrors just got into game because the design of the mirror was cool.Mirror axes would be nice if they didn't behave the way they do, sometimes without wanting to, you'll break out of stealth thanks to the late axe.

Mirage Mantle should be worse than companion's defense. Companion's defense only gets activated on a dodge roll, while False oasis, Sand through glass, crystal sands (even tho no one ever will use that skill) and illusionary ambush all proc mirage mantle

Desert distorsion definitely isn't meh. If you shatter 3 clones to use it you look at 4s of access to ambushes, so up to 2 ambushes on all weapons and up to 3 on sword (and trident i guess). But you also get access to three mirage mirrors, so 2.25s of dodges, plus three ambushes for you and your clones. Obviously you need to go through the mirrors for that, but jaunt makes it really easy. I guess it could be low impact if you shatter too defensively (as in you don't have enough clones up, or you are stun and won't be able to use ambush) but just because a trait does not work in any situation does not mean it's meh.

I haven't played much with mirror axes as I'm not really into the condi mirage, but the trait felt really strong to me. I can see why you wouldn't want that interaction to happen tho. Reminds me of desperate decoy which can also works against you as it cancels your skills. I still think it's a fine trait overall tho, especially since condi mirage definitely doesn't need the stealth as much as power mirage does

It shouldn't. First of all Companion's defense is a minor, then comes with a free minor endurance gain upgrade.Than all those skills except FA are garbage and mirrors are garbage as well, makes you predictable af.

Not a lot of times you get 3 mirrors from DD ( I guess you can if you don't shatter offensively), but then again mirrors are trash, having to waste an ability to get into a mirror is a no no in my view.

As for the axes the problem is mainly stealth breaking.

axes are bad becouse they are proj on melee weapon, becouse they lock you into long animations that dont have strong hits of other classes, becouse axes reveal you, becouse they multihit so retal fucks you over, becouse axe clones are melee so they run like lambs to the sloughter, becouse axe 3 is retarded and it WILL lose you games.and other reasons that I forgot of the top of my head.

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@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

It shouldn't. First of all Companion's defense is a minor, then comes with a free minor endurance gain upgrade.Than all those skills except FA are garbage and mirrors are garbage as well, makes you predictable af.

The only skill among those that's garbage is crystal sands. Sand Through glass is a bit weak, but definitely not garbage, illusionary ambush is fine, and false oasis is really strong (let's face it it's one of the strongest healing skill in this game). And yeah it's predictable because this trait is predictable. And this trait in itself is inherently stronger on mirage than on ranger, not just because you get access to it more often but because on mirage the amount of time you get hit by your ennemy and have to dodge defensively is lower than on ranger, making each second of protection more impactful.

Not a lot of times you get 3 mirrors from DD ( I guess you can if you don't shatter offensively), but then again mirrors are trash, having to waste an ability to get into a mirror is a no no in my view.

I always get 3 mirrors from DD, it's really easy to do actually considering all the clone generation mirage has access to (thanks mostly to deceptive evasion). I really fail to see how a dodge + ambush that applies weakness around is trash but oh well. Also you don't need to use any ability to get into a mirror, it just helps to do it faster. And it's not wasting an ability if you were to use it without a mirror to kite your ennemy. And Desert Distorsion isn't just about getting the mirrors, but also getting an access to ambush when you're under distorsion (which is very handy on sword, and there's a lot of synergy with the inspiration traitline).

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I think everyone misses the point and real issue. Mirage ruined Mesmer. The real issue you have with these nerfs? There not direct nerds to mirage. Instead there nerfs to Mesmer that actually affect core and chrono more than the intended mirage...... think how poor chrono clone generation will be now and how they can hardly shatter already. A net nerf the wrong things and make the wrong design choices in this case. Yes mirage is a noob killer, was ci OP? Only on mirage. Pretty much everything claimed to be OP has only been OP on mirage due to its mechanics. That’s why we currently have no diversity. You want the real answer to get balance across Mesmer clones need to be changed dramatically. They should be treated as non destroyable resource or only able to be damaged if directly targeted and balanced accordingly to that. Infinite horizon should be removed or ambushed have separate balancing for clones. Return weapons and core traits to suitable place to make chrono and core viable and nerf mirage back into position to account for core restoration. If an elite is OP nerf the elite only. Not Weapon sets, not skills the elite uses unless there OP across the board. This goes for all professions tbh it’s common sense on balancing. Ps you want to make balancing easy just remove clones give Mesmer clone charges and rebalance condi on weapons. Make phantasm spawn with distortion for its duration and give a clone charge on despawn, clone charges have a visual representation so enemy’s know how many u have, shatters turn those visual representations into real clones that have distortion and super speed running from you to your target. Now u have no more destroyable resource and suffering damage on condi from clones so everything can be balanced properly. Clone mechanic is still part of Mesmer and Mesmer has the QoL it needs for wvw pvp and pve. Have clone charges reset or decay when combat drops too for fairness.

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@desu.2514 said:I think everyone misses the point and real issue. Mirage ruined Mesmer.

Mirage did not ruin mesmer. Core mesmer, while not very strong, is still viable and what ruined chrono is the loss of IP and distorsion, not the mirage. Power chrono was actually extremely strong before its rework.

The real issue you have with these nerfs? There not direct nerds to mirage. Instead there nerfs to Mesmer that actually affect core and chrono more than the intended mirage...... think how poor chrono clone generation will be now and how they can hardly shatter already.

The Chaos Vortex nerf is a nerf to mirage in itself, not chrono or core mesmer. And one of the most egregious things about mirage (condi mirage specifically) is the insane clone generation. The nerfs are fine, anet just need to buff chrono aswell and add something only the core mesmer has access to (maybe an f5 shatter that would make everything the mesmer do ignore the ennemies' boons for 1 to 4s based on the number of clones shattered).

You want the real answer to get balance across Mesmer clones need to be changed dramatically. They should be treated as non destroyable resource or only able to be damaged if directly targeted and balanced accordingly to that.

This is a terrible idea. Power mesmer is already quite weak compared to condi mesmer, it would only make it worse. Condi mesmer is the one that would profit the most from having clones that you cannot kill.

Infinite horizon should be removed or ambushed have separate balancing for clones.

Infinite horizon already have separate balancing for clones. Except for staff (and axe outside of pve). Just bring the separate balancing to those weapons aswell, but do not remove infinite horizon. This is a really interesting trait, and removing it would make mesmer suffer. The only reason every single mesmer takes it is that other grandmasters are rather bad.

Return weapons and core traits to suitable place to make chrono and core viable and nerf mirage back into position to account for core restoration. If an elite is OP nerf the elite only. Not Weapon sets, not skills the elite uses unless there OP across the board. This goes for all professions tbh it’s common sense on balancing.

Actually what makes mirage op (id argue that it's not op anymore but still) is the insane clone generation, and the fact that you and your clones can attack while dodging (and than you can make them dodge). Both combined makes it really easy to have perma 3 clones, and when you do have 3 clones on condi mesmer, even when playing defensively you still have pressure. So it makes condi mirage hard to kill and easy to die to if you lack of condi cleanses. But you can't really nerf the fact that you can attack while dodging without removing it, so you can only nerf the clone generation. The problem is the clone generation do not come from mirage traits and weapons, but from the core mesmer traits and weapons.The only clone generation mirage in itself bring is from lingering thoughts (because let's get real no one takes self deception) but the clone generation on axe is actually pretty poor, and nerfing it more would make deceptive evasion even more mandatory than it is and would lower the build diversity.

Ps you want to make balancing easy just remove clones give Mesmer clone charges and rebalance condi on weapons. Make phantasm spawn with distortion for its duration and give a clone charge on despawn, clone charges have a visual representation so enemy’s know how many u have, shatters turn those visual representations into real clones that have distortion and super speed running from you to your target. Now u have no more destroyable resource and suffering damage on condi from clones so everything can be balanced properly. Clone mechanic is still part of Mesmer and Mesmer has the QoL it needs for wvw pvp and pve. Have clone charges reset or decay when combat drops too for fairness.

So I take it you're suggesting that mesmer only generate clones from phantasms now, but you can't destroy them ? That would feel extremely clunky and would make mesmer really slow to play. Creating one or two clones every 20 seconds even if they can't get destroyed is not enough if you use your shatters, and condi mesmers would play even more passively with this change because shattering would be a huge punishment for them, and if they don't shatter you can't do anything against their clones when facing them. This kind of change would make the game worse for everyone

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Why do people keep saying Mirage clone generation is a problem?

If you take the standard pvp meta build then you have the same clone generation as core and chrono. The only outlier is nomads endurance but that 1.5s of vigor per shatter is not a game changer.

I’m fine with them reducing the phantasm and clone generation from staff and scepter but I’m not fine with the 50% damage nerf to staff. I suppose I’ll be fine with it if they really turn it into a utility weapon - starting with staff 4 chaos armor getting a rework.

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