Instant Cast Offensive Skills Are Bad For The Game

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Xion.5694 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Xion.5694 said:Hi Cal,Will the instant 'block' 'aegis' 'blind' 'teleport' 'break stun' skills be lookend into then?Please look into the counterplays of instant damage while you look into things that do such damage or hard stun.

Love to hear!

Yes cuz all instant skills are equal regardless of what they do lol.U serious?The devs have the right idea regarding insta cast skills as they should be adjusted on a individual basses considering their is a huge variance of what each insta cast skills actually do.

Hi Psycoprophet,If a Developer mentions damage dealing instant cast skills and hard crowd control ones, and adding some sort of 'delay', then I comment on that.

If you do not see the connection between two factors of 'instant counterplay', like 'aegis' or 'teleport' then, I do not have anything more say to you.

Game isn't standardized thankfully. Teleport and aegis are there to counter balance weaknesses within the class and are very rooted into the balance for classes. If u think mesmer getting a slight cast time on mantras like mop being the same as a thief having one on tele or guard having one on aegis application than ur are correct as there is no point in a conversation about the subject.

[SeikeNz.3526]

theres is no point in picking mantras if they add cast to it, you already have a huge charge time, mantra of pain does 1k damage why people are crying about this? while any warrior/holos will do 10k damage using any skill

mantra of flame do 1 stack of burn, you waste a slot for thismantra of truth 4s of debuff, 4s in pvp is like only one skill, 1 blind and 1 weakness <--- very redundant if they going to miss the next atack weakness will do nothing, criple?meh most class clean it just by dodge rolling, it's just a debuffer support mantra no one going to die from this.mantra of potence this even worth without concentration? 2s is one skill, if you add cast time to it this will be useless since you could have cast an attack skill.the others not even mentioning

now you can say what about the final charge? first to be really useful you need to waste a trait for it, then if you use it you will need to charge again in the middle of battle and it's hard thing to do without running away, so theres your cast time.

now if you don't like blind it's your faulty for attacking while blindedif you don't like aegis it's your faulty for using a strong skill on it if you can remove it using a autoattack

if you don't like blocks guardian is the only tank class that don't have a full block, remove full counter from the game any other full block weapon since they are instant,do i have to even mention holo shield? it's a dragon hunter F3 on a weapon with half of the cooldown

[Stand The Wall.6987]

I like how shattered aegis was nerfed deleted and mes + firebrand mantras were untouched.never forget, never forgive.

[viquing.8254]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:I like how shattered aegis was nerfed deleted and mes + firebrand mantras were untouched.never forget, never forgive.

Are you comparing passive skill with instant active skills ?

@bravan.3876 said:Only Mantra of Pain, Mantra of Truth, Mantra of Flame, parts of Fresh Air Ele and Guards Meditations are critical in terms of balance and no counterplay abilities. No other Mantra needs a cast time to be balanced, or even would get completely useless like Mantra of Distraction. I also would not like to see a cast time on Thiefs steal. And i even would give Blinding Powder its instant cast back.

I agree that skills that have big impact (mostly dmg) by their own and can be mindlessly spammed (because no interrupt or anyhting like that needed what requires skill) should never be instant but that only fits to the previously listed skills.

Thief needs instant steal to function, the whole class is made around that (same for Mesmer shatters btw) and the interrupt playstyle on Mesmer is the one with the highest skill ceiling as long as not combined with op traits like old CI ofc. Reduce the daze duration on MoD to 1 secs and there is nothing to complain about anymore. It needs to be ranged and instant to even make sense as an interrupt tool. Lot of keyskills have 0,5 to 0,75 casttime without even taking any quickness into account, hf trying to interrupt that on purpose with a skill that has a cast time itself. And hf playing a glassy build like Powermes with the need to be in meleerange all time to interrupt something right on time. Also as interrupt tool (the only way it has any value to be considered taken over other utilities) it has at least 10 counters i listed several times already. MoD for that has more counters than most other Mesmer utilities or utilities from other classes, simply because of the need to get interrupts on keyskills to make it even worth using. Braindead spamming MoD and lucky random hit a big skill here and there or only hit autoattacks will not worth the use and will not make the Mesmer win any fight or have a remarkable value in a match.

But compared to MoP, MoD has a way more defensive nature anyway, considering that daze is not a lock down and not meant to be used to secure the hit of follow up dmg. Daze is (aside from blind) one of the most defensive cc in the game actually (ofc has offensive aspects too but not maily). Main purpose is to avoid to get hit and to interrupt (what even with Powerblock traited still is more defensive than offensive because the dmg from Powerblock is laughable, what is a good thing. One of the few offensive things for daze is to interrupt heal what can be countered quite easy and in a lot of ways). So your request for offensive skills doesn't rly fit for MoD that much and for no other Mantra (except MoP, MoT and MoF) anyway.

For Firebrand Mantra of Truth is too strong by its own but i would just tweak its power instead giving it a cast time. It has a long recharge already. Mantra of Flame is offensive but i haven't recognized it as having too strong dmg by its own until now but because it is only for dmg spam it could have a little cast time comparable to Mantra of Pain if you insist. Other Guard Mantras can stay instant without any problems caused.

Guards Meditations are another thing we can discuss but also here i would more tweak the power of the skill if needed, instead giving it cast time. Cast time would just prevent skillful comboing for Meditation Guards and would make it clunky (and i say that even though i don't like Coreguards at all). Let it be instant as long as Smite Conditions is not strong enough by its own to make it rewarding to be random spammed out of every skillcombo that includes castskills. Judge's Intervention could get the dmg/burn removed. An instant teleport from max range directly to the target without the need of los is strong enough for an instant skill. It doesn't need dmg in addition.Ofc a cast time on shatters is just a no no too. We see when looking at Chrono what it does to Mesmer when shatters are not instant (even when they are only not instant without clones it already kills every shatterbased playstyle). Mesmer was build and balanced around instant shatters and just like for Meditation Guards and Thief cast time would make it clunky and even more kill the class/spec/ build.

A little bit shorter overview:

1. Mantra of Pain: Needs a rework or delay (delay over cast time so classes with the need to combo certains skills can still do that). I would prefer a rework because cast times/delay on Mantras just contradict the whole nature of Mantras. Better just tweak their effects to a balanced lvl when still instant. For Mantra of Pain we worked out a Boonremove Mantra instead a dmg Mantra as idea. Other possibility would be to decrease the dmg and lower might/ vulnstacks (i prefer the first move because the second move always can lead into making it just useless, better rework broken mechanics instead nerf them to death, see EM trait).

2. Mantra of Truth: Imo its effects are too strong for an instant skill but as mentioned Mantras with cast time don't rly make sense, so just tweak its power to fit its instant nature after long recharge.

3. Mantra of Flame: Same as Mantra of Pain but it already is weaker in dmg, i am not even sure we have a balance issue here. But if yes then just lower dmg to an balanced amount for an instant skill, so it needs to be comboed with other not instant skills for a remarkable burst effect and doesn't worth to get random spammed.

4. Fresh Air mechanic: the short cds spammable dmg on scepter and the instant (passive) proc on swap to air trait have no counterplay for that the burst is so high that it can oneshot non bunker builds. I would not give it cast time but a delay (Ele can cast stuff during delay and during the use of the skills and still can use the skills during being cced, because the skills are still instant), so the gameplay doesn't get clunky but the opponent has time to react to what the Ele does. Like i see Ele swaps to air but instead of getting hit by the trait instantly the hit will be delayed for 0,3-0,5 secs gives me time to dodge that dmg. Scepter causes a flash animation but the animation appears together with the hit, so the hit could be delayed after button click for around 0,3-5 secs. Something like that (only ideas, feel free to come up with better solutions).

5. Guards Meditation skills (only Smite Conditions and Judge's Intervention, the others are defensive only anyway): Smite Conditions already got nerfed in dmg, we can discuss if the dmg is still too high or not. But it should not get a cast time to prevent the builds (Core and DH) from getting clunky or even unplayable. Judge's Intervention should get the dmg parts removed but also should stay instant.

6. Thief sword 2: Since immob is a very strong effect i am not sure if it could not get a little/better animation and casttime or a litttle delay on the immob application to make it better dodgeable. But i would not insist on it myself. It has no dmg by its own and has counterplay in terms of avoiding follow up dmg.

7. No other Mantra then the previous listed needs a cast time or delay at all, they have no balance issues (we could consider to lower daze duration on MoD to 1 sec to mark it more as a pure interrupt tool and not something worth spamming to daze chain, but that is already not worth it though). Mantras in general should stay instant after long recharge, only tweak or rework effects when they are not balanced with instant ability. Thief steal need to be instant just like Mesmers shatters. The whole class is build and balanced around that. And changing that just destroys the spec and make it clunky to play.

MoD defensive ability get really gut when can't use it from behind like if you have the time to face a rev/thief/war, rupt them then kitting away...

If I remember well, rev can output some nice instant damage too (like in legend swap...).

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@viquing.8254 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:I like how shattered aegis was

nerfed

deleted and mes + firebrand mantras were untouched.never forget, never forgive.

Are you comparing passive skill with instant active skills ?

no?

[shadowpass.4236]

@bravan.3876 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

1. It is easy vs bad players letting a Powermes freecast all game. In fights with decent ppl where the Mesmer gets focused instantly when dropping out of stealth he needs at least to disengage from a fight to cover the recharge what highers his lost in impact on the fight over the long charge time even more and clearly are costs of Mantras you can't just ignore or the Mesmer/ Guard stays in the fight but covers the charge with other long cd skills like stealth, invuln, for Guard stability or for Mirage dodges . One of the reasons that Misha doesn't take MoD in addition to MoP is that playing 2 Mantras needs too much time you have no impact during a match, you are busy with charing Mantras simply too long and too often and you are too vulnerable when you need to charge 2 Mantras. Other reason is that MoD is not needed to hit the oneshot, you can use f3 what is a stun and not only a daze and can't be dodged/ kited. Also why run an interrupt tool that needs reactive gameplay and mindful, well timed interrupts when you play a non reactive oneshot build, a brainless spammable MoP fits way better into that playstyle. Better use another stealth skill synergizes well with PU and can be used to disengage, sneaky rotations, cover the one Mantra charge you need to do or offensive for another unpredictable oneshot out of too long stealth.

MoD only has value when used as interrupt tool and for that it needs to be instant for previous named reasons, and that is no balance problem because daze is not a lock down (the target can dodge and move/ disengage/kite) and getting interrupted on keyskills can be countered easy. MoD also is not the only range instant skill can daze. The only important things are, that the daze duration is not too long to make it worth to be only random spammed without interrupting anything (the current duration is not long enough for that already but i agree that 1 sec instead 1,5 secs would be better) and that the interrupt reward you add by traits is not that high, that randomly interrupting autoattacks is already a killer or strong enough to be rewarding. Nothing of this is the case for MoD alone or MoD with current existing interrupt traits.

I think my list of instant skills need some attention (and which NOT) and the way they could be tweaked is accurate. Add to that the request from ZDragon to give a charge counter back into the Mesmers and Guards bar and we are done. A delay i only would apply to instant skills having high dmg (Fresh Air, MoP, MoF; MoT even though a delay on Mantras is a bit overkill in skill costs, better just rework it into something without big dmg or too strong effects and for that no delay). For MoP turn it into a Boonremove instead dmg and MoT needs to be nerfed in its power a bit, why does it even add so many non dmg conditions? Also a bit higher cd inbetween charge-uses could be considered. MoT has only 1 second, it could be 4 or 5 secs like MoD.

(once again you just cherry picking on stuff make Mantras look stronger than they are by ignoring big costs they have during a match, you literally ignore the basic nature of Mantras that is just a big lol... only the first charge during running out of keep rly fits to your point or when some charges can be done during a Mesmer is rotating outfight without a Thief or anything else chasing him. That low skilled ppl let Mesmers freecast and free charge Mantras and free rotate is not a balance argument vs Mesmers or Mantras).

@shadowpass.4236 said:

I'm not channeling my mantras directly in front of someone that I know has a CC ready. I will line of sight, CC, blind, or immobilize and walk behind them, use super speed and run away if they're on a melee weaponset, channel it as soon as they start their dodge animation, etc. etc.

In other words, there are many ways to reliably and frequently gain access to the instant cast, powerful mantra charges. Also, suppose they weren't able to react to me channeling the mantras in front of them. In this scenario, increasing the cast times on the charges so they

could

react in time would (logically) make sense. Ya know, as opposed to making them not have a cast time to react to at all. However, even though that's not a good idea, that's my answer to your question in bold.

2. You even name ways yourself how you actively have to cover and outplay ppl and use other cds to get the recharge through, funny just that you don't count that as outplay, mind games and cost of Mantras. Nothing of what you just listed you need to do for skills with normal cd, means they don't have the costs of Mantras, because you don't need to actively recharge them to get them of cd so they miss all the counterplay and the need to cover them you just listed for Mantras. Gosh it is so hard and exhauting to talk to ppl don't even understand their own writings...

1. I never said the enemies let me freecast. Instead, I said that I use the tools at my disposal to help guarantee the full mantra channels. Just watch the in-houses yesterday where Mur was playing mantra mesmer against 5 other good players. It's hilarious how hard you're trying to make it sound like mantras are only good against complete noobs when they are clearly effective across a variety of skill ranges (including high end).
2. Yes, because that's how you
   should
   play mantras. It's not a "cost" of using them. It's just called playing smart and not channeling them right next to someone with an interrupt ready. Unlike you, I don't just sit there in the middle of a team fight trying to channel my mantra and then going, "Wow it keeps getting interrupted." Like come on, that's so stupid.

This is so wrong and missing what the points are again that i don't even bother anymore to explain it again 5 times for you until you run out of arguments and bait out by saying you will not read that much and need to study xD

They're called midterms and I don't feel like reading an essay right before I leave for class.

You can call me wrong but I'm not the one getting my mantras interrupted constantly. There were in-houses streamed yesterday with a ton of good players on NA. Mur did perfectly fine against Team USA members on his mantra mirage. He wasn't even using PU or mass invis.

I'm not going to bother explaining basic mechanics to someone who can't be bothered to play intelligently and instead insists on sitting in the middle of the teamfight going "why aren't my mantras channelling?"

As said you don't get the points at all. If you are not able to see what are skill costs and what not during you describe yourself what you all have to do to get the channel through just blindly deny to name it costs then it is your problem. I am not playing Mantras currently, when i play Mesmer i play Condimirage and without old CI it doesn't use any Mantra. I also never said Mantras only work vs bad player or that i would have a problem to get the recharge through, i only explained to you that a free recharge (means where Mantras rly have no costs, where you can ignore the recharge as some sort of high cost, like you try to make it look like) is only possible when running out of keep, after a won fight/ team wipe or when the Mesmer is allowed to freecast or free rotate during the match. Otherwise you have to use a lot of tools or disengage to get the recharge through, as you just listed yourself a lot of examples in the following quoted comment from you (as said you don't even understand the real meaning of what you write yourself).

@shadowpass.4236 said:

I'm not channeling my mantras directly in front of someone that I know has a CC ready. I will line of sight, CC, blind, or immobilize and walk behind them, use super speed and run away if they're on a melee weaponset, channel it as soon as they start their dodge animation, etc. etc.

^Nothing of this you have to do for a skill with a normal cd, no skill type except of Mantras have such high costs of a vulnerable long recharge time you have to cover by other skills or by disengaging and not having impact for the time of the recharge+ the time of your disengagement and +time for re-engagement. No other skills cd recharge can even be interrupted or used for some free pressure. It is so simple and obvious that it is actually cringe how you tryhard to deny to accept these as Mantra specific costs, during these costs are exactly what the nature of Mantras is and the only moments you can just deny them and call it a free recharge is when you run out of keep or after a won fight/ team wipe (no time loss , no pressure from opponents possible) or when bad player just let you freecast all time. During a running match vs decent ppl you at least need to disengage/ kite los or cover it by other cds (stealth, blind etc) the moment you cannot freecast and that is the case very often vs decent player, ergo you have costs you don't have for other type of skills recharging off cd passively. You need to be up to date about opponents cds for cc or pressure (just as you listed yourself in your quoted post above), you need to use other cds to cover or you need to disengage (also as you just mentioned yourself in the quoted post above). These moments you clearly have costs and nothing of this is required for a skill that goes off cd without you need to think about it, without you need to do something for it actively, other skills cd refreshments can't be interrupted by other players at all. So saying the recharge is not relevant for Mantras as some sort of even pretty high cost is not true the moment players don't let the Mesmer freecast in combat. Simple! If you need to use a 30 sec cd stealth to cover the mantra charge the 30 secs cd is part of the costs for mantras, if you need to disengage the time for the disengagement + the time you need to channel the recharge is lost time in terms of impact impact on the match, ergo also Mantra specific costs, the ability to even interrupt a mantra charge what you cannot do to any other skill to prevent them to get off cd also mantra specific costs. That is why Mantras are designed as they are and why they are instant after recharge. As long as they don't have op effects like stupidly high and brainless spammable dmg like MoP there is no balance issue with Mantras and their instant nature at all. That is why i say a delay is a bit of overkill in skill costs and why i prefer to just tweak Mantras with op effects (what only is the case for MoP, MoT, and maybe MoF) instead giving them a delay or cast time. But you try to deny that they even have costs from the recharge (as if you can perma free recharge), denying the whole basic nature of Mantras.

No clue where you even read that is said mantras only work vs bad player, i clearly said only vs bad player let you free cast they have NO COSTS from recharge. I dunno where you read i use mantras and can't get the recharge through, i only explained that they have mantra specific costs make it balanced for them to be instant for the other charges, ofc only as long as their effect is not too strong (and then you better just rework the overperforming ones or nerf their effect to a balanced lvl instead adding a delay or cast time because delay/ cast time contradicts the whole design of Mantras which already have a pretty long cast time before they can be used, this now is my opinion about why delay on Mantras is bad during the explanation about mantra costs are simple facts).So these 2 claims (that i said mantras onyl work vs bad player and that i use mantras and can't get the recharge) are onyl done by you to contradict my arguments with nonsense, to distract from the real points i made and to devalue what i said and you don't care that it doesn't make sense and that i never said it. You missunderstand intentionally to confuse ppl. You are literally lying to reach your goal and contradict what i say at any cost. And you used this "tactic" every single time we had a dispute until now. And even though you have to live with your conscience, i will tell you that it is simply not fair how you act.

In gernal: Ignorance and exaggerating to bend truth and cherry picking to reach a subjective goal no matter what makes me crazy so i interfere and i always will when i think something like that is happening.But after serveral discussions with you i know how it will go/ turn out, it is always the same and i am too tired too repeat and explain the obvious 5 times until you run out of ideas how to tryhard to not understand and miss all points and distract from the real meaning of my writings and when you finally would need to admit you just bait out. So once again this was the last time i responded to you over this topic in this thread. If you still didn't understand... i think everyone else did at the lastest after this post from me and Anet hopefully knows it better anyway so i don't care at all if you are convinced or not.

???

There aren't any costs to using mantras lmao. It's not like you start the channel and lose 5k HP.

Again, like I've said several times in the past, just because you CHOOSE to not use them intelligently doesn't mean they have "mantra specific costs." Like you're literally just making shit up.

"Mantra specific costs." like what are you even talking about?? :joy:

And then you try to downplay the strength of mantras even more by stating that only bad players let you freecast. Again, there are plenty of ways to guarantee the casts against good players as well.

Lmao say whatever you want about me man you're back to the same "you're wrong I'm right thing" without offering a single point to debate other than "meh 'mantra specific costs' meh they only work against bad players."

[Simonoly.4352]

Counterplay doesn't always have to be reactionary, but can instead be anticipatory. In addition to the long and very obvious charging of a mantra, the charges themselves used to appear under the enemy Mesmer health bar. This allowed people to anticipate instant skill usage as you could count what mantra charges a Mesmer had and you could adjust your play style accordingly (e.g. not using important long cast skills right in front of a Mesmer with Power Lock available, or condi bursting a Mesmer that has Power Cleanse available). These were removed (and haven't been added back I don't think?) so this important counterplay is gone.

So...maybe just put the charges back under the health bars of enemy Mesmers/Firebrands and let people use this information to play intelligently?

[MithranArkanere.8957]

Nothing that can be used instantly should do damage while being usable at the same time or consecutively with anything that can be used instantly and also do damage.

Because of that, many instant cast skills need to have either activation time or aftercasts.

One way to reduce the impact of specific situations that are too fast without making things overall too slow could be a mechanic that adds a some sort of 'sluggishness' the more instant skills are used in sequence, making them slower if used one after another, but not affecting them when used sporadically.

[bravan.3876]

@viquing.8254 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:I like how shattered aegis was

nerfed

deleted and mes + firebrand mantras were untouched.never forget, never forgive.

Are you comparing passive skill with instant active skills ?

@bravan.3876 said:Only Mantra of Pain, Mantra of Truth, Mantra of Flame, parts of Fresh Air Ele and Guards Meditations are critical in terms of balance and no counterplay abilities. No other Mantra needs a cast time to be balanced, or even would get completely useless like Mantra of Distraction. I also would not like to see a cast time on Thiefs steal. And i even would give Blinding Powder its instant cast back.

I agree that skills that have big impact (mostly dmg) by their own and can be mindlessly spammed (because no interrupt or anyhting like that needed what requires skill) should never be instant but that only fits to the previously listed skills.

Thief needs instant steal to function, the whole class is made around that (same for Mesmer shatters btw) and the interrupt playstyle on Mesmer is the one with the highest skill ceiling as long as not combined with op traits like old CI ofc. Reduce the daze duration on MoD to 1 secs and there is nothing to complain about anymore. It needs to be ranged and instant to even make sense as an interrupt tool. Lot of keyskills have 0,5 to 0,75 casttime without even taking any quickness into account, hf trying to interrupt that on purpose with a skill that has a cast time itself. And hf playing a glassy build like Powermes with the need to be in meleerange all time to interrupt something right on time. Also as interrupt tool (the only way it has any value to be considered taken over other utilities) it has at least 10 counters i listed several times already. MoD for that has more counters than most other Mesmer utilities or utilities from other classes, simply because of the need to get interrupts on keyskills to make it even worth using. Braindead spamming MoD and lucky random hit a big skill here and there or only hit autoattacks will not worth the use and will not make the Mesmer win any fight or have a remarkable value in a match.

But compared to MoP, MoD has a way more defensive nature anyway, considering that daze is not a lock down and not meant to be used to secure the hit of follow up dmg. Daze is (aside from blind) one of the most defensive cc in the game actually (ofc has offensive aspects too but not maily). Main purpose is to avoid to get hit and to interrupt (what even with Powerblock traited still is more defensive than offensive because the dmg from Powerblock is laughable, what is a good thing. One of the few offensive things for daze is to interrupt heal what can be countered quite easy and in a lot of ways). So your request for offensive skills doesn't rly fit for MoD that much and for no other Mantra (except MoP, MoT and MoF) anyway.

For Firebrand Mantra of Truth is too strong by its own but i would just tweak its power instead giving it a cast time. It has a long recharge already. Mantra of Flame is offensive but i haven't recognized it as having too strong dmg by its own until now but because it is only for dmg spam it could have a little cast time comparable to Mantra of Pain if you insist. Other Guard Mantras can stay instant without any problems caused.

Guards Meditations are another thing we can discuss but also here i would more tweak the power of the skill if needed, instead giving it cast time. Cast time would just prevent skillful comboing for Meditation Guards and would make it clunky (and i say that even though i don't like Coreguards at all). Let it be instant as long as Smite Conditions is not strong enough by its own to make it rewarding to be random spammed out of every skillcombo that includes castskills. Judge's Intervention could get the dmg/burn removed. An instant teleport from max range directly to the target without the need of los is strong enough for an instant skill. It doesn't need dmg in addition.Ofc a cast time on shatters is just a no no too. We see when looking at Chrono what it does to Mesmer when shatters are not instant (even when they are only not instant without clones it already kills every shatterbased playstyle). Mesmer was build and balanced around instant shatters and just like for Meditation Guards and Thief cast time would make it clunky and even more kill the class/spec/ build.

A little bit shorter overview:

1. Mantra of Pain: Needs a rework or delay (delay over cast time so classes with the need to combo certains skills can still do that). I would prefer a rework because cast times/delay on Mantras just contradict the whole nature of Mantras. Better just tweak their effects to a balanced lvl when still instant. For Mantra of Pain we worked out a Boonremove Mantra instead a dmg Mantra as idea. Other possibility would be to decrease the dmg and lower might/ vulnstacks (i prefer the first move because the second move always can lead into making it just useless, better rework broken mechanics instead nerf them to death, see EM trait).

2. Mantra of Truth: Imo its effects are too strong for an instant skill but as mentioned Mantras with cast time don't rly make sense, so just tweak its power to fit its instant nature after long recharge.

3. Mantra of Flame: Same as Mantra of Pain but it already is weaker in dmg, i am not even sure we have a balance issue here. But if yes then just lower dmg to an balanced amount for an instant skill, so it needs to be comboed with other not instant skills for a remarkable burst effect and doesn't worth to get random spammed.

4. Fresh Air mechanic: the short cds spammable dmg on scepter and the instant (passive) proc on swap to air trait have no counterplay for that the burst is so high that it can oneshot non bunker builds. I would not give it cast time but a delay (Ele can cast stuff during delay and during the use of the skills and still can use the skills during being cced, because the skills are still instant), so the gameplay doesn't get clunky but the opponent has time to react to what the Ele does. Like i see Ele swaps to air but instead of getting hit by the trait instantly the hit will be delayed for 0,3-0,5 secs gives me time to dodge that dmg. Scepter causes a flash animation but the animation appears together with the hit, so the hit could be delayed after button click for around 0,3-5 secs. Something like that (only ideas, feel free to come up with better solutions).

5. Guards Meditation skills (only Smite Conditions and Judge's Intervention, the others are defensive only anyway): Smite Conditions already got nerfed in dmg, we can discuss if the dmg is still too high or not. But it should not get a cast time to prevent the builds (Core and DH) from getting clunky or even unplayable. Judge's Intervention should get the dmg parts removed but also should stay instant.

6. Thief sword 2: Since immob is a very strong effect i am not sure if it could not get a little/better animation and casttime or a litttle delay on the immob application to make it better dodgeable. But i would not insist on it myself. It has no dmg by its own and has counterplay in terms of avoiding follow up dmg.

7. No other Mantra then the previous listed needs a cast time or delay at all, they have no balance issues (we could consider to lower daze duration on MoD to 1 sec to mark it more as a pure interrupt tool and not something worth spamming to daze chain, but that is already not worth it though). Mantras in general should stay instant after long recharge, only tweak or rework effects when they are not balanced with instant ability. Thief steal need to be instant just like Mesmers shatters. The whole class is build and balanced around that. And changing that just destroys the spec and make it clunky to play.

MoD defensive ability get really gut when can't use it from behind like if you have the time to face a rev/thief/war, rupt them then kitting away...

If I remember well, rev can output some nice instant damage too (like in legend swap...).

Yes i forgot about Rev, i also forgot that i would remove the unblockable from Daredevil Swipe and give it more range instead.

@Simonoly.4352 said:Counterplay doesn't always have to be reactionary, but can instead be anticipatory. In addition to the long and very obvious charging of a mantra, the charges themselves used to appear under the enemy Mesmer health bar. This allowed people to anticipate instant skill usage as you could count what mantra charges a Mesmer had and you could adjust your play style accordingly (e.g. not using important long cast skills right in front of a Mesmer with Power Lock available, or condi bursting a Mesmer that has Power Cleanse available). These were removed (and haven't been added back I don't think?) so this important counterplay is gone.

So...maybe just put the charges back under the health bars of enemy Mesmers/Firebrands and let people use this information to play intelligently?

Well said and i totally agree, the Mantracharge icon needs to be back into the buffbar of Mesmers and FBs

[Swagg.9236]

It's not just instant-speed offensive skills. An equally big issue is the usage of instant skills which then provide protracted periods of damage or effect negation during which players can still take offensive actions. This also includes a lot of skills which just bake "block" or "evade" periods into attacks, because entirely removing the risk from a move with a cast-time might as well mean that that skill's cast-time is instant. At this point, the latter might even be the bigger issue.

Yes, mantras and things like FA ele exist, and they're awful, but the more commonly seen "playstyle" which generally causes the most boring combat cycles are builds which just end up being super predictable, but also completely soaked with evasion, passive damage pulses, passive self-healing and/or passive stability procs. All of that together means that a lot of fights run this time-wasting cycle of wearing through cooldowns and passive procs until an opponent can FINALLY take proper damage (that is, if they don't just run due to an obvious lack of CDs).

Point is, instant-speed offense is heinously bad design for a game like this. Remove it. But also cull this garbage which lets people just walk through damage and smack people for thousands of damage without any real consequence.