Instead of nerfing this and that .... just nerf the Quickness buff in general

[Liza.2758]

Holo is not only one who rely on this.

Warrior can do more or less the same. quickness - cc into burst all in one or quickness into rampage

ranger also use this but they don't have strong set as those 2

FB now also trying to abuse the quickness

instead of nerfing this skill that skill this class that that class ... Kill the buff in general easier

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Quickness, Protection and Swiftness need a rework similar to Alacrity (cut back, but stronger with traits, etc.). Regeneration needs to be cut back and stack in intensity since they're never going to fix the stacking issues with it and Healing Power versus healing modifiers.

Really we just need to do away with monolithic boons, of which Quickness is the worst with its 50% modifier..

[SeikeNz.3526]

well holos/warriors are not supposed to have quickness in first place

ranger are supposed to have quickness some times

now tell me how fb is trying to abuse quickness if it's the only class with chrono based on quickness?

while i agree quickness should be a buff of only FB/CHRONO then ranger some times, remove it from all other classes

cuting quickness or any buff to half power will change nothing, they need to be class specific

[Zenix.6198]

I have been advocating for this as well a few months back.But why stop at just quickness?Ridiculously high boon uptimes are rampant throughout the game and one of the root issues of the resulting powercreep.

Im fine with Anet's design decision to make classes and specs less team-dependent to reach those numbers as well, as long as it's not too impactful in the competitive gamemodes. (==> Like warrior, ele, engi, revenant, necro..etc.etc. all are able to get a lot of might on their own with minimal investment into boon-duration or traits).

Splitting boon-effectiveness by gamemode needs to happen sooner or later anyway if this game ever wishes to see even a remote form of "balance".And looking at retaliation, we also know that it's possible.

[Axl.8924]

@"Zenix.6198" said:I have been advocating for this as well a few months back.But why stop at just quickness?Ridiculously high boon uptimes are rampant throughout the game and one of the root issues of the resulting powercreep.

Im fine with Anet's design decision to make classes and specs less team-dependent to reach those numbers as well, as long as it's not too impactful in the competitive gamemodes. (==> Like warrior, ele, engi, revenant, necro..etc.etc. all are able to get a lot of might on their own with minimal investment into boon-duration or traits).

Splitting boon-effectiveness by gamemode needs to happen sooner or later anyway if this game ever wishes to see even a remote form of "balance".And looking at retaliation, we also know that it's possible.

They shoulda curbed boon spam ages ago, along with control of quickness super quickness limitations and protection.

It wasn't nearly this bad back in HOT.

[apharma.3741]

Wow you guys really are new.

Quickness used to be 100% faster casting way back at launch and it was balanced for 2 reasons:

1. It was a very rare boon to have with only Timewarp, Quickening Zephyr, Frenzy and Tome of Wrath giving it. Not sure what traits might give it but they were rare too.
2. Often it had downsides, Timewarp being short duration in an area, Quickening Zephyr and Frenzy would reduce your healing by 100% or increase damage taken by 50% respectively and Zealot's Fervor having a 2s cast on top of the tome cast with limited use and huge cool down.

It was reduced to 50% in 2013 along with reducing it's negative effect on the utility skills, then a lot of drawbacks were removed altogether in 2015 in preparation for elite specs. This is where quickness started going out of control, it was handed out like candy with no drawback on top of increased boon duration and spam from the new elite specs, corrupts and removal couldn't keep up.

Quickness is fine as a boon, it doesn't increase your damage as much as you think, what needs to happen is going back to either having drawbacks or being much harder to get in general and no-one should have perma quickness or even 50% without some serious (half your traits) trait investment.

What does a Holo do to get high quickness up time? 30% boon duration rune which they would take anyway, sigil of agility, 1 traited utility and 1 trait.What does a chrono or mesmer take for high quickness uptime? 2 traits and some boon duration.FB only needs 2 traits + decent boon duration to get high quickness uptime or the quickness mantra and 1 trait.

Most other classes quickness isn't too bad, might just need a slight curb but that's about it.

[Zenix.6198]

@apharma.3741 said:Wow you guys really are new.

Quickness used to be 100% faster casting way back at launch and it was balanced for 2 reasons:

1. It was a very rare boon to have with only Timewarp, Quickening Zephyr, Frenzy and Tome of Wrath giving it. Not sure what traits might give it but they were rare too.
2. Often it had downsides, Timewarp being short duration in an area, Quickening Zephyr and Frenzy would reduce your healing by 100% or increase damage taken by 50% respectively and Zealot's Fervor having a 2s cast on top of the tome cast with limited use and huge cool down.

It was reduced to 50% in 2013 along with reducing it's negative effect on the utility skills, then a lot of drawbacks were removed altogether in 2015 in preparation for elite specs. This is where quickness started going out of control, it was handed out like candy with no drawback on top of increased boon duration and spam from the new elite specs, corrupts and removal couldn't keep up.

Quickness is fine as a boon, it doesn't increase your damage as much as you think, what needs to happen is going back to either having drawbacks or being much harder to get in general and no-one should have perma quickness or even 50% without some serious (half your traits) trait investment.

What does a Holo do to get high quickness up time? 30% boon duration rune which they would take anyway, sigil of agility, 1 traited utility and 1 trait.What does a chrono or mesmer take for high quickness uptime? 2 traits and some boon duration.FB only needs 2 traits + decent boon duration to get high quickness uptime or the quickness mantra and 1 trait.

Most other classes quickness isn't too bad, might just need a slight curb but that's about it.

Ye, I'd agree that quickness is just a part of the problem.But its not just about quickness imo.

The dmg of certain specs just get inflated through the roof with all the boonspam that is around nowadays.Like Warriors, Holos, Weavers, Reapers and Revenants can seemingly effortlessly maintain high stacks of might with minimum invenstment (traits and stats alike).It definitely is a form of powercreep and, quite frankly, adds to passive gameplay (like getting an extra 33% of dmg just from boons).

And if Anet is fine with this design choice, it should at least be reduced to a level, where it's not this impactful....at least in the competitive modes.

[Eurantien.4632]

There just needs to be more boon rip options that just remove boons and don't also add negative effects to the enemy (ie not corruption).

Like if winds of disenchantment was just like time warp, existed on its own, and ripped and didn't allow boons to apply, it'd be a strong zoning tool and counter to double firebrand comps that ball up.

[ZDragon.3046]

I dont think quickness is the issue at all hardly i would say to leave it alone but first look at might, stability, as some one else said make regeneration stack in intensity instead of duration.

Quickness is more or less fine its the boons light might that cause the crazy damage 25 might should be hard for most professions to achieve constantly even with help form others with only 2-3 professions should be holding their might better than everyone else because they are limited in every other boon category.

As long as the buff is tied to pve there is no way it should be nerfed itself as pve endgame content heavily depends on it.

And fe we are going to talk about splitting boons between game modes i would argue that we should do this for conditions as well.

[otto.5684]

@Eurantien.4632 said:There just needs to be more boon rip options that just remove boons and don't also add negative effects to the enemy (ie not corruption).

Like if winds of disenchantment was just like time warp, existed on its own, and ripped and didn't allow boons to apply, it'd be a strong zoning tool and counter to double firebrand comps that ball up.

That is a very bad solution. You do not counter more boons with more boon removal. This how you end-up in a spam fest and mega power creep.

If you have too much boons and boon uptime, the solution is to cut boon and boon uptime.

Anet, Cal, already mentioned they are working on it (very slowly as it may be).

And I like the OP idea. Cutting down quickness effectiveness would be a very good idea.

Another possibility, is allow it to stack like might. 5 stacks max, each providing 10% adding back to 50%. This would allow much easier manipulation in PvP. Probably better accessibility, but less capability to attain max stacks. It can also create synergy for multiple people applying the buff to stack.

[Eurantien.4632]

@otto.5684 Now that's spam. I have no reason not to spam my boons that can now stack. If there was more removal, I would have to bait out someone's boon removal skill before using the boons I really need.

And vice-versa, id be able to bait someone to use an important boon and the remove it.

Right now though, since no class can stand up against firebrand and herald comps that has strong boon rip (i.e. Necro isn't seeing play) there is nothing to stop them from spamming boons.

You can reduce the durations or effects or whatever and people will still spam boons... there's no incentive not to.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Eurantien.4632 said:There just needs to be more boon rip options that just remove boons and don't also add negative effects to the enemy (ie not corruption).

Like if winds of disenchantment was just like time warp, existed on its own, and ripped and didn't allow boons to apply, it'd be a strong zoning tool and counter to double firebrand comps that ball up.

Winds of Disenchantment wasn't countering FB stacking even when it functioned like that. It just wasn't capable of ripping fast enough to even compete.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

The only source of quickness should be from time warp, or other long cd, obvious skills with a cast time. This nonsense of having a personal instant cast 6s+ quickness buff every single fight need to stop.

[MrFrusciante.2438]

@apharma.3741 said:Wow you guys really are new.

Quickness used to be 100% faster casting way back at launch and it was balanced for 2 reasons:

1. It was a very rare boon to have with only Timewarp, Quickening Zephyr, Frenzy and Tome of Wrath giving it. Not sure what traits might give it but they were rare too.
2. Often it had downsides, Timewarp being short duration in an area, Quickening Zephyr and Frenzy would reduce your healing by 100% or increase damage taken by 50% respectively and Zealot's Fervor having a 2s cast on top of the tome cast with limited use and huge cool down.

It was reduced to 50% in 2013 along with reducing it's negative effect on the utility skills, then a lot of drawbacks were removed altogether in 2015 in preparation for elite specs. This is where quickness started going out of control, it was handed out like candy with no drawback on top of increased boon duration and spam from the new elite specs, corrupts and removal couldn't keep up.

Quickness is fine as a boon, it doesn't increase your damage as much as you think, what needs to happen is going back to either having drawbacks or being much harder to get in general and no-one should have perma quickness or even 50% without some serious (half your traits) trait investment.

What does a Holo do to get high quickness up time? 30% boon duration rune which they would take anyway, sigil of agility, 1 traited utility and 1 trait.What does a chrono or mesmer take for high quickness uptime? 2 traits and some boon duration.FB only needs 2 traits + decent boon duration to get high quickness uptime or the quickness mantra and 1 trait.

Most other classes quickness isn't too bad, might just need a slight curb but that's about it.

its not the dmg increase but the way you can quickly chain attacks that makes it OP as a ranger GS without quickness is useless axe main for that matter as well

[Liza.2758]

i know Might stacking is also another problem

but if u have played this game long enough u would know Anet can't fix this

it was broken since Rune of Strength was added in Spvp yearsssss ago

so I gave them a new and easyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy way out instead.

no point calling stuffs that i wanted 5 years ago and never happen

kill quickness and call it a year ok ? don't need to go 300 IQ on something else

[Daishi.6027]

I agree. Removing the sigil is a start, but imo it's just unhealthy for PvP outside of long cooldowns designed to tip the scales in teamfights.

[Lighter.5631]

warrior doesnt even abuse quickness, warrior only has sigil and frenzy with 30 cd lol.

what's abusing quickness right now are FB/rev/holo three of the most op classes right now, these classes literally has infinite amount of quickness

[Axl.8924]

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:The only source of quickness should be from time warp, or other long cd, obvious skills with a cast time. This nonsense of having a personal instant cast 6s+ quickness buff every single fight need to stop.

What about reaper shroud? they have quickness i think. If that was eliminated they would be ultra slow and its their only way to keep up.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

Actually.

Ye, I'd agree that quickness is just a part of the problem.

But its not just about quickness imo.The dmg of certain specs just get inflated through the roof with all the boonspam that is around nowadays.

Like Warriors, Holos, Weavers, Reapers and Revenants can seemingly effortlessly maintain high stacks of might with minimum invenstment (traits and stats alike).

It definitely is a form of powercreep and, quite frankly, adds to passive gameplay (like getting an extra 33% of dmg just from boons).And if Anet is fine with this design choice, it should at least be reduced to a level, where it's not this impactful....at least in the competitive modes.

This.

[reikken.4961]

leaving high uptime on boons and just nerfing the power of the boons is just boring. I'd actually even like to see boons be stronger but way harder to get.

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

@reikken.4961 said:leaving high uptime on boons and just nerfing the power of the boons is just boring. I'd actually even like to see boons be stronger but way harder to get.

Just like everything in this game should be; a clear period (time) of opportunity and vulnerability. Or strength and weakness, if you may. Despite the stance against holy trinity, no class should be your 'do gooder, do everything'.

[Thornwolf.9721]

The boon itself is not the issue, the issue is having full 100% coverage of it at all times. I've seen plenty of people who have 100% protection upkeep which is just a 30% damage reduction all the time, paired with perma retaliation and resistance/aegis this is REALLY BAD.

If corrupt is being nerfed, than boon upkeep time needs to be reduced majorly as it should be like mitigation that comes in response to us the player needing it in the moment. You shouldn't have permanent upkeep of ANY BOON period, and the number of boons we have could be quelled and rolled together to halve the amount we have and reduce bloat. Make boons offer multiple effects but make it harder to obtain more than one or two of them at a time on a very limited time frame, this would make it way easier to maintain balance and a lot of the gimmicky builds would die because they rely on boons.

We didn't have these issues at launch because we couldn't just spam a million boons and just have them the whole fight, we have to think and use things in response to oncoming damage. You're nerfing the only way to really deal with them, why not nerf them in of themselves and make it less spam heavy? It's not fun gameplay and it requires no skill when you reduce all the damage you will receive to a negligible amount and then hit someone for full health.

but im pretty sure A-net knows this, because they have this Diablo 3 "Every button needs to do something epic" thirteen year old conception of balance which leads us to a lot of the issues we have now. Im sure that as boon-corrupt and boon rip get turned down, boons will get out of control and then we will enter into a phase of them not doing anything because they refuse to address the main beast which is boons themselves and instead double down on it. Take the game back to how it was at launch make the content doable, and make Elite specs not so ridiculously over the top and we will have a solid time. The Time-to-fight is way to slow and the issue is its not very fun when you don't have time to react, or even know whats coming before you explode.

Even with a tanky build you can still be exploded for full health with no warring, paired with the lag server side and the performance issues of the game right now? Well thats just power for the course. No perma-stealth, no perma-upkeep on boons and No ludicrous one shot builds.... make the combat engine shine since its your saving grace... double down on it and make it more per-tenant to the gameplay loop.(It feels good when it works. It just doesn't work often anymore.)