What would happen to Weaver if....

[Dreams.3128]

@"Grimjack.8130" said:Riptide and Earthen Vortex are not the issue. In fact, they are part of the solution.

People actually need to pay attention to this man. You know, the one actually topping with Weaver and probably the only one topping with Weaver rn. Riptide and Vortex are the reason Weaver's STOP damaging you. If you take away their evades they are legit garbage and Tempest level. Y'all are literally vouching for Tempest level nerfs, when not even allowing for MENDER sword Weaver to live?

Tf is wrong with you??? And if we do lose Riptide AND all of our EVADES you're gonna make us go fresh air, which hey! That bursts you even harder no matter what weapon we chose so you'll still cry anyways. So pick your poison, Condi or power. This is so stupid that this stupid forums have whole specs and classes by the literal nuts.

[Neil.3825]

I think sword should be a defensive weapon so nerf damage is a better idea. Of course compensate it by add some damage to dagger would be perfect.2 Choices, offensive or defensive sounds great to me. Cumulate roles isn't healthy for the game.

[Megametzler.5729]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@MyPuppy.8970 said:Is that the squishy slow thing that needs to hug you to do damage?

Sure evades are annoying but at least it doesn't do damage while doing so.

Wat.

Weaver can absolutely pulse damage on you while dodging with Primordial Stance.

But... then they are not in fire, but in water and/or earth. Which gives Primordial stance at max 1 stack of fire per tick (but then they have only one of those two evade), reducing the damage significantly...?

Not saying Fire weaver is fine. But this is not the issue with Fire weaver. Fire weaver combines too much random burns and cleanses for an offensive traitline. Reduce those first - if weaver is still a problem, including Water weaver, then reduce CDs on those evades, yes.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

I suggested a nerf to fire weav months ago but got laughed at. all it needs is some burn duration cut down. its supposed to be a bunker so let it bunker.

[Neil.3825]

The problem is only with weaver's sword so I don't understand why you want fire line take the nerf. It seems a strange decision to me. Or can you explain why ?

[Fueki.4753]

@Neil.3825 said:The problem is only with weaver's sword so I don't understand why you want fire line take the nerf. It seems a strange decision to me. Or can you explain why ?Seemingly, people just don't want Ele to perform well outside of Stale Air builds.Fire is fine. If any change had to be done with it, Power Underwhelming needs its might requirement lowered.

[Dreams.3128]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:I suggested a nerf to fire weav months ago but got laughed at. all it needs is some burn duration cut down. its supposed to be a bunker so let it bunker.

Problem is ele had a bunker build for literally two years. Then it got gutted. Weaver came out and ANOTHER bunker build came to spawn. I'm confused as to why everyone wants Ele to be a bunker SO DAMN BAD and never wants us to do damage. Even fresh air was getting flak for no reason.

[Megametzler.5729]

@Neil.3825 said:The problem is only with weaver's sword so I don't understand why you want fire line take the nerf. It seems a strange decision to me. Or can you explain why ?

With sword? Sword has been basically untouched since PoF launch. Some insignificant nerfs, some insignificant buffs.

Isn't Fire weaver the problem? Or is Water weaver problematic too? If so, sword might be the problem. if it's only Fire weaver, then there should be changes to skills only affecting the problematic build.

[Fueki.4753]

@Megametzler.5729 said:Why is Fire Weaver a problem anyway?Compared to Mirage:It evades less than Mirage.It puts out less conditions and direct damage than Mirage.It dies much faster than Mirage.It has less abilities to run away when losing (if any at all).

Should Mirage get addressed first?

[Swagg.9236]

@ollbirtan.2915 said:what would happen if ppl stopped writing clickbait headlines with meaningless suggestions?

What would happen if ppl stopped getting so triggered over the idea of losing the ability to negate incoming damage while attacking and healing?

[Sigmoid.7082]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@"Megametzler.5729" said:Why is Fire Weaver a problem anyway?Compared to Mirage:It evades less than Mirage.It puts out less conditions and direct damage than Mirage.It dies much faster than Mirage.It has less abilities to run away when losing (if any at all).

Should Mirage get addressed first?

Considering that you have to compare it to one of the stronger classes to say "its no OP because its not as OP as this" is kind of indicative. Balancing classes isn't a mutually exclusive activity.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@Lilyanna.9361 said:I'm confused as to why everyone wants Ele to be a bunker SO kitten BAD and never wants us to do damage.

you're confused cuz not everyone does, that's the way anet thinks ele should be designed to have a competitive build. sad but true.

[Khalisto.5780]

if they add a ton of passive defenses like mirage, spellpreaker, holo Im ok with it, it would just be great being able to run demolisher, marauder, wizards, carrion likr the other classes and have dmg greatly increased while losing only 20% sustain and still avoiding most atacks ny simply spamming offensive skills

[Abelisk.5148]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@Megametzler.5729 said:Why is Fire Weaver a problem anyway?Compared to Mirage:It evades less than Mirage.It puts out less conditions and direct damage than Mirage.It dies much faster than Mirage.It has less abilities to run away when losing (if any at all).

Should Mirage get addressed first?

Because a great Fire Weaver can tank a point very well, and defeat Mirages. Mirage can't stay on point, they're glassy. Remember that Fire Weavers gain protection, barrier, and earth resistance from Weave Self. They burn enemies that touch them, constantly.

Plus, it evades more than Mirage, due to the fact that it has much higher vigor uptime and about the same amount of evasion skills, if not more

[Fueki.4753]

@"Sigmoid.7082" said:Considering that you have to compare it to one of the stronger classes to say "its no OP because its not as OP as this" is kind of indicative. Balancing classes isn't a mutually exclusive activity.I could compare it to almost everything else and Fire Weaver would be always be inferior (except maybe Druid, Base Ele and Tempest).I don't see any Chronomancers and Base Mesmers anymore so and therefore can't compare those two.

[apharma.3741]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@apharma.3741 said:What would happen to Weaver if....They removed evade sword earth and water #2?

The elementalist section will revert to being the whiniest self entitled section of the forums. On the plus side if anyone wanted to make a vial of salt it would become much easier.

It's all cool...once they take care of

might generation/impact and access to quickness

, once they take care of the huge dmg spike some professions are capable of plus their innate sustain...once of all that is take care of, the nerfs to weaver will be meaningless because ele will be more than able to compete with base d/d ele or FA build

Sc/F FA weaver bursts far harder than core FA, doesn't need the extra evades even though it technically has one.D/F LR weaver pumps out damage like mad, has extra evades but they're much more reasonable at 0.75 and 0.5s and on 18/20s CDs instead of 10/12s.

Everything I said is 100% true, that doesn't mean I agree with removing the evades, shortening the duration (why they have to be 1 and 1.75s is beyond me) and making the cool downs less spammy would help tremendously. That isn't what the OP asked though, you and I know exactly what kind of whiny cesspool the ele forums would become.

[ollbirtan.2915]

@Swagg.9236 said:

@ollbirtan.2915 said:what would happen if ppl stopped writing clickbait headlines with meaningless suggestions?

What would happen if ppl stopped getting so triggered over the idea of losing the ability to negate incoming damage while attacking and healing?

lol I don't even main weaver in spvp --- i play it on a noob level. However all the weavers I came across were nothing compared to other classes that are actually OP. It takes a lot of skill to play weaver well in plat2+ .

[crepuscular.9047]

give Staff 1 hit KO, make Staff Great Again!

[Stallic.2397]

@Neil.3825 said:The problem is only with weaver's sword so I don't understand why you want fire line take the nerf. It seems a strange decision to me. Or can you explain why ?

Sword isn't the problem. It's spamming primordial stance at 25 stacks of might, that's the problem.

Primordial stance was buffed by Anet, for idk why. But the devs just recently commented that self stacking 25 stacks of might is something they're looking into. Fire traitline allows weavers to do that.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@"Megametzler.5729" said:Why is Fire Weaver a problem anyway?Compared to Mirage:It evades less than Mirage.

Meta fire Weaver way outpaces meta Condi mirage right now in evade uptime.

1 single block and one 0.5 second evade (Which similar to Full Counter is really just there so the counter attack goes off properly if an attack is absorbed) on the scepter 2, 8 second cooldown verses

2.75 seconds of evade every 12 seconds between Riptide and Earthen Vortex.

Over the course of a fairly realistic 60 second fight a Weaver is getting 13.75 seconds of evade frames from Riptide and Earthen Vortex. Mesmers are getting 7 potential blocks and 3.5 seconds of evade frames.

Illusionary Ambush is 0.75 seconds on a 35s cooldown.

Twist of Fate is 1s evade on a 40s cooldown, but has the benefit of being an ammo skill. Over the course of a fairly realistic

60 second fight the mirage is getting 1.5 seconds of evade frames from IA, Weaver is getting 3 seconds from twist of fate.

Now Mirage does have a built in evade on False Oasis that Weaver's don't have in their build which can be used potentially three times in a 60 second fight for 2.25 seconds of evade.

Both classes have very high levels of vigor and while Weaver does have more the exact uptime on both is a bit hard to calculate while at work so I'll just say they break even at perma vigor. That's 8 vigor dodges over 60 seconds plus your 2nd endurance bar for a 9th dodge. Equalling 6.75 seconds of dodge roll evades per minute.

Weaver runs energy, Mirage runs double energy so they're both procing it as much as possible, that's another 3 dodges per minute. 2.25 seconds.

When you look at the totals you're looking at:

Mirage: 16.5 seconds of Evade Frames per minute.

Weaver: 25.75 seconds of Evade Frames per minute.

Even if you assume a mirage is running a melee weapon like axe instead of scepter that's 5.25 seconds of evade frames per minute instead of 3.5.

If you want to throw mesmer Distortion on there then you have to throw Obsidian Flesh on there since that's an invulnerability as well, both potentially 4 seconds on 50 second cooldowns so potentially 8 seconds of invulnerability per minute and now we're looking at:

Mirage: 24.5 seconds of evade uptime per minute.Weaver: 33.75 seconds of evade uptime per minute.

This is a pretty extreme rough estimate, assuming both classes are using their defensive options off cooldown all fight long in a way that isn't realistic, but if you're going to throw out statements like "mirage has more evades than Weaver" you should probably check what The actual meta builds are roughly capable of first. Meta Weaver decisively beats Meta Mirage in evade uptime right now.

[Fueki.4753]

@mortrialus.3062 said:a fairly realistic 60 second fight a WeaverI've yet to see a Fire Weaver surviving that long.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:a fairly realistic 60 second fight a WeaverI've yet to see a

Fire

Weaver surviving that long.

Fight better ones then.

[Dreams.3128]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@"Lilyanna.9361" said:I'm confused as to why everyone wants Ele to be a bunker SO kitten BAD and never wants us to do damage.

you're confused cuz not everyone does, that's the way anet thinks ele should be designed to have a competitive build. sad but true.

Nah, I've seen people practically scream about ele damage when they actually could do damage. I've also seen the exact same people moan when tempest was a thing before they got put into the floor. Funny how those people did not say a thing until Weaver decided to find a bunker build. Then they whined about that. After that people said fresh air Weaver did too much because of the double proc boons we got so they nerfed that. Then they took away the fury on swap and replaced it with might etc. Etc.

People had not gotten off of this class's back because they want to justify every time this class gets suddenly popular with: "But D/D CORE"

And I'm not blaming you at all Stand, because you've been somewhat reasonable, but I've been on the these forums for years and it's the same people that had whined about a lot of things here that had gotten floored into non-existence.

[Tharan.9085]

@Ovark.2514 said:

@ollbirtan.2915 said:what would happen if ppl stopped writing clickbait headlines with meaningless suggestions?

Well no one responded to my last topic so I figured what the hell. Also it's not a meaningless suggestion since the evades on sword and invulns on focus are 100% the reason that players are even able to use weaver at all competitively.

So ele isnt allowed to be viable? :)

[mortrialus.3062]

@Lilyanna.9361 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Lilyanna.9361 said:I'm confused as to why everyone wants Ele to be a bunker SO kitten BAD and never wants us to do damage.

you're confused cuz not everyone does, that's the way anet thinks ele should be designed to have a competitive build. sad but true.

Nah, I've seen people practically scream about ele damage when they actually could do damage. I've also seen the exact same people moan when tempest was a thing before they got put into the floor. Funny how those people did not say a thing until Weaver decided to find a bunker build. Then they whined about that. After that people said fresh air Weaver did too much because of the double proc boons we got so they nerfed that. Then they took away the fury on swap and replaced it with might etc. Etc.

People had not gotten off of this class's back because they want to justify every time this class gets suddenly popular with: "But D/D CORE"

And I'm not blaming you at all Stand, because you've been somewhat reasonable, but I've been on the these forums for years and it's the same people that had whined about a lot of things here that had gotten floored into non-existence.

I kind of want a Righteous Instinct for Elementalist that allows them to run full damage specs a bit more comfortably by making something like Valkyrie viable on them. Something like:

Burning Heart: Your precision is increased by 100% of your vitality. This total is subtracted by your healing power.

Or like a new Elite Spec with a fifth full Arcane attunement that always crits.

Something to give them a build for more vitality on DPS specs, get a bit more upfront sturdiness to survive an incoming burst and done so in a way that doesn't allow to them from being high self healing, high vitality, and high damage all at once.

I always thought it was a crime that in a sword and sorcery RPG, the sorcery part largely isn't raining death on people with giant fireballs and lightning bolts. I actually really enjoyed seeing Fresh Air Weavers back in the earlier days of PoF before Plasma Beam got nerfed and a noticable handful of players were consistently playing it at a plat 2-3 level.