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Wvw without fb and scourge


Psycoprophet.8107

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@DeadlySynz.3471 said:

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:How different would zerg battles be if these two classes were disabled from the mode until
their properly fixed
. hypothetically of course.

This part. To be ‘properly fixed’, something has to be broken..

Well you have 1 class that practically does everything better than everything else except for the 1 thing it doesn't have access to (boon corrupt), so yes, at least 1 out of the 2 is broken. Can a scourge be called broken if it's repeatedly being nerfed and cannon fodder for ranged classes? Can't really say that.. Is the class broken if people's sole problem with it is they don't know how to "not stand" in the red circles? Hardly..

But when 1 class can stop an entire ranged zerg simply due to the the fact it has a lower cool down and far longer up-time skill than any unblockables.. well Houston, we have a problem. That's just 1 of a plethora of issues.

This. This right here is a very strange thing to say when the meta is pirateship and has been pirateship since firebrand has been around. I do not think you have any idea of what you are talking about.

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scourge is nothing, they are super squishy, the core problem is the fbs, a single good fb can carry 4 trashy team mates in pvp arena just show how powerful they are

i feel the problem is fb's capability to not only sustain others but themselves, if Anet thrower a spanner to make Guardians need to sacrifice self sustain for group sustain, perhaps that will make more interesting gameplay

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@crepuscular.9047 said:scourge is nothing, they are super squishy, the core problem is the fbs, a single good fb can carry 4 trashy team mates in pvp arena just show how powerful they are

i feel the problem is fb's capability to not only sustain others but themselves, if Anet thrower a spanner to make Guardians need to sacrifice self sustain for group sustain, perhaps that will make more interesting gameplay

that is asking for 2 fbs in a group

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@Sovereign.1093 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:How different would zerg battles be if these two classes were disabled from the mode until their properly fixed. hypothetically of course.

it's going to be more of a pirate ship thing. lots of revs, eles, rangers, mesmers, and even warriors will be using rifle or bow. it'll be very boring if no one pushes

Well I donno I'd be alot more inclined to go in for some melee fights if fb wasnt boon farting loading up there zerg and scourges wernt spreading death carpets throughout and around its zerg at a rediculous rate. Just me though lol.Rev and ele bombs are more manageable in my opinion.

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:How different would zerg battles be if these two classes were disabled from the mode until their properly fixed. hypothetically of course.

it's going to be more of a pirate ship thing. lots of revs, eles, rangers, mesmers, and even warriors will be using rifle or bow. it'll be very boring if no one pushes

Well I donno I'd be alot more inclined to go in for some melee fights if fb wasnt boon farting loading up there zerg and scourges wernt spreading death carpets throughout and around its zerg at a rediculous rate. Just me though lol.Rev and ele bombs are more manageable in my opinion.

well it's always ok to try. :3

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@Sovereign.1093 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:How different would zerg battles be if these two classes were disabled from the mode until their properly fixed. hypothetically of course.

it's going to be more of a pirate ship thing. lots of revs, eles, rangers, mesmers, and even warriors will be using rifle or bow. it'll be very boring if no one pushes

Well I donno I'd be alot more inclined to go in for some melee fights if fb wasnt boon farting loading up there zerg and scourges wernt spreading death carpets throughout and around its zerg at a rediculous rate. Just me though lol.Rev and ele bombs are more manageable in my opinion.

well it's always ok to try. :3

Somtimes it's all u can do lol

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@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:How different would zerg battles be if these two classes were disabled from the mode until their properly fixed. hypothetically of course.

You want to know? You REALLY really want to know? Cause you won't like it.

tl;dr: Double Rev and Spellbreakers (Number of SB depends on people not getting bored playing a melee class at range like the current meta. Why do you think people don't play it even though it has a major impact?)

With NO Necro and NO Guardian it would look like this:

  • Condi Rev (Jalis/Mallix) (1:5) for resistance spam + Banish Enchantment (You don't think people won't learn how to use it? Cause they will if forced to.)
    • Condi Rev is tossup between Core and Herald. Core's Energy Regen allows more casts of Pain Absorption or more importantly Banish Enchantment. Cuppled with Opportune Extraction which has one of the highest rates to strip stability first out of almost any skill in the game allows good stability stripping even without Necro. Herald on the other hand would allow an extra 3 stacks of Stability through True Nature - Dwarf Traited. Of course this like kind of a waste of a trait-line especally with...
  • Power Rev (Jalis/Glint) (1:5)
    • Inspiring Reinforcement is truely an overlooked skill. Without Guardian Stab spam this open up a new chapter for IR especally considering it's the only PULSING GROUP STABILITY in the game. Rite of the Great Dwarf providing an extra 50% Damage reduction is also really undervalued. Depending on what traitlines are used it could also have the potential to be traited for extra condition resistance as well, but that depends on the meta and that would probably fall under condi rev Jalis. Speaking of it's DOUBLE RotGD. That's pretty much a 50%-75% uptime and it was already op enough... Trust me when I say it has saved more fights then you can imagine.
  • Support Scrapper (1:5)
    • Big surprise. While Support Tempest could probably be better with offensive support Scrapper still brings high healing, still converts boons, and still has Stealth Gyro. Because Detection pulse is also getting changed over to Goggles depending on pressure that people feel over Bulwark Gyro it could be swapped out depending on how stealth continues to shake the meta for advanced groups. If that were true we might actually possibly see an increase in P/S combined with Overshield to increase protection uptime due to the loss of Guard. Also Super Speed Spam gotta just put that one out there.
  • Support/CC Tempest (1:5 or 1:10 with 1:10 being more likely)
    • Tricky one here most likely we'll see Staff and D/W both get used with swapping coming up when out of battle. (and come on how many times have you accidently reset your ArcDPS due to exiting combat. It's like that but weaponized. Anyway most likely it will be Arcane Wave (Imob Spam), "Aftershock!", and "Eye of the Storm" for a bit as people adjust to lack of Firebrand stunbreaking their lazy asses for them after it will switch to Lightning Flash or for the less brave/insane it will be "Flash Freeze". Hard CC + Soft CC imobs also work well with the lack of resistance spam until people re-adjust to Mallyx Rev and lack of sharing. Combined with Winds of Disenchantment and added CC from Call to Anguish and Scrapper Hammer 5. Static could catch a lot of people again with out the hard carry guards.
  • Berserker Power. (1:5 or 1:10 with 1:5 most likely)
    • Remember Arc Divider and when it got buffed and it instantly downed 5 people at once so they had to nerf it by 25%? Well it's still fucking powerfull and while Berserker might be even harder to survive on now unless you're running Defence line it should make a good addition if the meta were to swerve away from pure ranged to a sort of in-out meta. Mostly combining AD with Hammer Stun (which also imobs in rage BTW) could work well. Though I still find the idea of Pure Melee risky with WoD still a thing. Speaking of...
  • Spellbreaker Power (1:10)
    • I mean Anet literally made a skill just to destroy the boon train meta. WoD is still a thing and without corrupts from necros it will hit twice as hard. I can see it being used by novice groups as an ambush and snowball tactic from stealth with Scrapper. Sadly people will complain about this skill being OP and quite rightfully so cause GUESS WHAT? It seems like the only thing keeping it in check is boon corruption and not just removal. That's because warrior has a Balanced Stance which pulses stability to them which means the only way to stop their attack is to corrupt their stability to fear, apply lots of imob and chill and hope he doesn't catch up with you (and your permanent superspeed), or keep stripping and pray that some CC, ANY CC, hits them between pulses. That has to happen for every spellbreaker. So ya. Spellbreaker WoD(not spellbreaker as a whole) mostly lacks counters without necro.
  • Staff Deardevil (??? : ???) Probably not...
    • Ok, Vault is powerful we all know that. But is it worth sacrificing a spot on a roster for a class that doesn't really bring anything other then damage to the table? Maybe. Situational but potentally useful it would require a thief with loads of practice otherwise they would just outright be a detriment. If you do have such a thief consider replacing that Berserker with him. It's hard to recommend, but there it is.
  • Imob Spam Druid (Don't you : fucking leave) I'm serious.
    • Look anything Druid can do Tempest can do better (except immobilize) Druid can and will immobilize the shit out of people, but there's a problem or two. First playing WvW you need your support to have condition cleanses. Ironically Druid sucks at condition cleansing. Second another draw of druid would be Grace of the Land. Of course considering Herald Might output it gets redundant. Of course the idea is that it could support Herald Might for near max uptime in stacks and considering the loss of Empower unless people quickly learn how to blast fire fields again it might actually come in handy. Of course it's only as good as what the enemy Condi Rev would let you do. Depending on how much energy they dedicate towards keeping your imob off vs stripping your boons it could turn out that you could sneak in more imob then you realize. BTW Pets would be Drakehound and Jungle Spider/Smokescale.
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@YTKafka.4681 said:

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:How different would zerg battles be if these two classes were disabled from the mode until their properly fixed. hypothetically of course.

You want to know? You REALLY really want to know? Cause you won't like it.

tl;dr:
Double Rev
and
Spellbreakers
(Number of SB depends on people not getting bored playing a melee class at range like the current meta. Why do you think people don't play it even though it has a major impact?)

With NO Necro and NO Guardian it would look like this:
  • Condi Rev (Jalis/Mallix) (1:5) for resistance spam + Banish Enchantment (You don't think people won't learn how to use it? Cause they will if forced to.)
    • Condi Rev is tossup between Core and Herald. Core's Energy Regen allows more casts of Pain Absorption or more importantly Banish Enchantment. Cuppled with Opportune Extraction which has one of the highest rates to strip stability first out of almost any skill in the game allows good stability stripping even without Necro. Herald on the other hand would allow an extra 3 stacks of Stability through True Nature - Dwarf Traited. Of course this like kind of a waste of a trait-line especally with...
  • Power Rev (Jalis/Glint) (1:5)
    • Inspiring Reinforcement is truely an overlooked skill. Without Guardian Stab spam this open up a new chapter for IR especally considering it's the only PULSING GROUP STABILITY in the game. Rite of the Great Dwarf providing an extra 50% Damage reduction is also really undervalued. Depending on what traitlines are used it could also have the potential to be traited for extra condition resistance as well, but that depends on the meta and that would probably fall under condi rev Jalis. Speaking of it's DOUBLE RotGD. That's pretty much a 50%-75% uptime and it was already op enough... Trust me when I say it has saved more fights then you can imagine.
  • Support Scrapper (1:5)
    • Big surprise. While Support Tempest could probably be better with offensive support Scrapper still brings high healing, still converts boons, and still has Stealth Gyro. Because Detection pulse is also getting changed over to Goggles depending on pressure that people feel over Bulwark Gyro it could be swapped out depending on how stealth continues to shake the meta for advanced groups. If that were true we might actually possibly see an increase in P/S combined with Overshield to increase protection uptime due to the loss of Guard. Also Super Speed Spam gotta just put that one out there.
  • Support/CC Tempest (1:5 or 1:10 with 1:10 being more likely)
    • Tricky one here most likely we'll see Staff and D/W both get used with swapping coming up when out of battle. (and come on how many times have you accidently reset your ArcDPS due to exiting combat. It's like that but weaponized. Anyway most likely it will be Arcane Wave (Imob Spam), "Aftershock!", and "Eye of the Storm" for a bit as people adjust to lack of Firebrand stunbreaking their lazy kitten for them after it will switch to Lightning Flash or for the less brave/insane it will be "Flash Freeze". Hard CC + Soft CC imobs also work well with the lack of resistance spam until people re-adjust to Mallyx Rev and lack of sharing. Combined with Winds of Disenchantment and added CC from Call to Anguish and Scrapper Hammer 5. Static could catch a lot of people again with out the hard carry guards.
  • Berserker Power. (1:5 or 1:10 with 1:5 most likely)
    • Remember Arc Divider and when it got buffed and it instantly downed 5 people at once so they had to nerf it by 25%? Well it's still kitten powerfull and while Berserker might be even harder to survive on now unless you're running Defence line it should make a good addition if the meta were to swerve away from pure ranged to a sort of in-out meta. Mostly combining AD with Hammer Stun (which also imobs in rage BTW) could work well. Though I still find the idea of Pure Melee risky with WoD still a thing. Speaking of...
  • Spellbreaker Power (1:10)
    • I mean Anet literally made a skill just to destroy the boon train meta. WoD is still a thing and without corrupts from necros it will hit twice as hard. I can see it being used by novice groups as an ambush and snowball tactic from stealth with Scrapper. Sadly people will complain about this skill being OP and quite rightfully so cause GUESS WHAT? It seems like the only thing keeping it in check is boon corruption and not just removal. That's because warrior has a Balanced Stance which pulses stability to them which means the only way to stop their attack is to corrupt their stability to fear, apply lots of imob and chill and hope he doesn't catch up with you (and your permanent superspeed), or keep stripping and pray that some CC, ANY CC, hits them between pulses. That has to happen for every spellbreaker. So ya. Spellbreaker WoD(not spellbreaker as a whole) mostly lacks counters without necro.
  • Staff Deardevil (??? : ???) Probably not...
    • Ok, Vault is powerful we all know that. But is it worth sacrificing a spot on a roster for a class that doesn't really bring anything other then damage to the table? Maybe. Situational but potentally useful it would require a thief with loads of practice otherwise they would just outright be a detriment. If you do have such a thief consider replacing that Berserker with him. It's hard to recommend, but there it is.
  • Imob Spam Druid (Don't you : kitten leave) I'm serious.
    • Look anything Druid can do Tempest can do better (except immobilize) Druid can and will immobilize the kitten out of people, but there's a problem or two. First playing WvW you need your support to have condition cleanses. Ironically Druid sucks at condition cleansing. Second another draw of druid would be Grace of the Land. Of course considering Herald Might output it gets redundant. Of course the idea is that it could support Herald Might for near max uptime in stacks and considering the loss of Empower unless people quickly learn how to blast fire fields again it might actually come in handy. Of course it's only as good as what the enemy Condi Rev would let you do. Depending on how much energy they dedicate towards keeping your imob off vs stripping your boons it could turn out that you could sneak in more imob then you realize. BTW Pets would be Drakehound and Jungle Spider/Smokescale.

To be honestly still sounds more fun than the garbage that it is now.Zerg covered with scourge aoe's resulting in almost insta death to any melee build that tries approaching any side of the zerg all while fb is crapping out perma boons to said zerg resulting in both zergs literally just spamming range aoe's/skills on a push/pull rotation.Pure garbage!

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Minstrel Tempest out cleans and out heals FB guardians, while providing some protection, might. Minstrel scrappers, the former mega cleansers, are next in cleansing power, who actually convert those nasty condi's (burns converted to aegis, tyvm burn guards LOL), while providing some stab, protection. And it looks like maybe ventari Revs may come back (or be a real thing for the first time LOL). Jallis Rev provides stab and resistance. The focus on FBs as being the big bad support class meanie is a broken meme. Look around, there are other meta support classes that, with FBs, makes support strong. If you were to take guardians totally out of the picture, the effect would be nominal, as the other support classes would step up and fill in. Heck, Druid would prolly even come back. Talk about might stacking .... geesh! No aegis? Guess what, no one would have aegis, so no big deal. It's not like they wouldn't have aegis and you would .... your happy butt won't have it either. Also, well played spellbreakers can outstrip scourges. That is their soul reason for existing. Numerous classes are already cc'ing you, besides the scourge. See that weaver hiding, tucked away in the back ... mhmm .... How about this: Make WvW for pure dps classes only, no condi, power only, everyone just blow yourselves up. :s

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@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

To be honestly still sounds more fun than the garbage that it is now.Zerg covered with scourge aoe's resulting in almost insta death to any melee build that tries approaching any side of the zerg all while fb is crapping out perma boons to said zerg resulting in both zergs literally just spamming range aoe's/skills on a push/pull rotation.Pure garbage!

Here's another:

Scrapper Superspeed is preferable to Holo Leap due to open field applications and SS on blasts as well but incase it gets nerfed for some reason...

"Zephyr Holo" DPS (1:20)Probably won't happen, but I have it on good authority that Holo can provide good support even without gyros. Of course the reason is "Why Holo then?". Basically Holo Forge 2 can be traited to have it's "jump pad" to give superspeed instead of swiftness. The jump pad also has no target cap as it works like a line basically allowing 50 Man superspeed. Problem is the jump pad is quite small so it's efficenty is limited outside of pushing chokes where people will run over the pad. Furthermore with Detection Pulse being switched to Utility Goggles off of Purge Gyro now all Engi specs have access to it. Could potentally open up some stealth counterplay depending on if it can be traited with gadgeteer (as it might be reclassified as a gadget) or even without it the anti-stealth is useful without suppor scrapper sacrificing a utility slot. Furthermore Shockwave and Light Beam have good potential for Hard CC in melee range but again it depends on how quickly Spellbreakers can be broken out of their Winds.

Note: can also be traited for support as well but that feels like a waste personally as you could just Scrapper it up instead.

Potentally something like this? http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PegAwqlJwAZXMJGKWeX/vPA-zVRYbRDIG+zoXFQFSADPL6vsB-w

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In the old days we had GWEN - (Guard/War/Ele/Necro). GW - frontline, EN - back line. Mes/thief/ranger = skirmishers. Engineers? Nobody played em. :-)

While the balance was all over the place, and guard play was boring (1-1-1-1-1-1...), I do think the overall dynamic of front-line, back-line, and skirmishers was more fun overall. Having to tactically coordinate front and back while maneuvering and keeping their front from hitting your back was a more complex macrogame than what we have now, IMO.

-Jeff

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It would be basically boon spam meta scourge is one of the few classes keeping boon spam in check with massive boon corrupt, and it is.

Nerf boon spam and the meta will change quite a bit.

Warriors firebrands guardians herald mesmers and soulbeast need to be nerfed in how much boons they can spam because its ridiculous, and its the reason scourge is so strong.

I personally would rather we have stronger boon rip to deal with it at this point so necro can finally have its damage back on scourge, and maybe some condi back to core.

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