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Mesmer Pistol - 1200 Range?


FalsePromises.6398

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Let's look at other classes and their pistols. Thief pistols are 900 range. Engineer pistols are 600-900 range. Most of those skills are more effective at close range. Now, with that set down, why is mesmer pistol 1200 range? The only weapons that can be comboed with it are axe, sword, and scepter, and scepter is 900 range. Would it not make sense to reduce the range of mesmer pistol to match scepter? Furthermore, mesmer pistol was balanced in the past, but as its received buffs along the lines of guaranteed bleeding, stun duration increases, etc., it's become a stronger and more oppressive weapon. I believe that mesmer pistol could be reduced to 900 range to: be more consistent with other pistol skills in the game, match scepter range better, and become less oppressive at high ranges especially as it has become stronger and stronger over time. 900 range is still very functionally worthwhile for a stun and a barraging pistol phantasm, and would feel much better to have the scepter/pistol kit balanced by a more mid range style instead of having openers from 1200 range. What do y'all think of reducing the range of mesmer pistol? Does it truly seem balanced to have a kit with such high firepower at full power ranged weapon range, or should it be constrained to a shorter range to put a little more positioning and constraint to it?

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@FalsePromises.6398 said:Let's look at other classes and their pistols. Thief pistols are 900 range. Engineer pistols are 600-900 range. Most of those skills are more effective at close range. Now, with that set down, why is mesmer pistol 1200 range? The only weapons that can be comboed with it are axe, sword, and scepter, and scepter is 900 range. Would it not make sense to reduce the range of mesmer pistol to match scepter? Furthermore, mesmer pistol was balanced in the past, but as its received buffs along the lines of guaranteed bleeding, stun duration increases, etc., it's become a stronger and more oppressive weapon. I believe that mesmer pistol could be reduced to 900 range to: be more consistent with other pistol skills in the game, match scepter range better, and become less oppressive at high ranges especially as it has become stronger and stronger over time. 900 range is still very functionally worthwhile for a stun and a barraging pistol phantasm, and would feel much better to have the scepter/pistol kit balanced by a more mid range style instead of having openers from 1200 range. What do y'all think of reducing the range of mesmer pistol? Does it truly seem balanced to have a kit with such high firepower at full power ranged weapon range, or should it be constrained to a shorter range to put a little more positioning and constraint to it?

I like how you created account simply to post it :DIm not sure if you are trolling or not so im just leave the comment here so I get notifications, have good day!

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  • 2 weeks later...

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@FalsePromises.6398 said:Let's look at other classes and their pistols.
Thief pistols are 900 range. Engineer pistols are 600-900 range.
Most of those skills are more effective at close range. Now, with that set down,
why is mesmer pistol 1200 range?
The only weapons that can be comboed with it are axe, sword, and scepter, and scepter is 900 range.
Would it not make sense to reduce the range of mesmer pistol to match scepter?
Furthermore, mesmer pistol was balanced in the past, but
as its received buffs along the lines of guaranteed bleeding, stun duration increases, etc., it's become a stronger and more oppressive weapon.
I believe that
mesmer pistol could be reduced to 900 range to: be more consistent with other pistol skills in the game, match scepter range better, and become less oppressive at high ranges especially as it has become stronger and stronger over time.
900 range is still very functionally worthwhile for a stun and a barraging pistol phantasm, and
would feel much better to have the scepter/pistol kit balanced by a more mid range style instead of having openers from 1200 range.
What do y'all think of reducing the range of mesmer pistol? Does it truly seem balanced to have a kit with such high firepower at full power ranged weapon range, or should it be constrained to a shorter range to put a little more positioning and constraint to it?

I like how you created account simply to post it :DIm not sure if you are trolling or not so im just leave the comment here so I get notifications, have good day!

I just talk a lot, and people would tell me to take my ideas to forums, so I made an account to post on forums. I've actually been playing the game for near 7 years by now. I don't see how a legitimate concern against pistol would be trolling: pistol seems to be overperforming as of late, given it outshines torch in PvP nowadays for meta. If it really seems like such an absurd idea though, would you care to elaborate?

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@FalsePromises.6398 said:

@FalsePromises.6398 said:Let's look at other classes and their pistols.
Thief pistols are 900 range. Engineer pistols are 600-900 range.
Most of those skills are more effective at close range. Now, with that set down,
why is mesmer pistol 1200 range?
The only weapons that can be comboed with it are axe, sword, and scepter, and scepter is 900 range.
Would it not make sense to reduce the range of mesmer pistol to match scepter?
Furthermore, mesmer pistol was balanced in the past, but
as its received buffs along the lines of guaranteed bleeding, stun duration increases, etc., it's become a stronger and more oppressive weapon.
I believe that
mesmer pistol could be reduced to 900 range to: be more consistent with other pistol skills in the game, match scepter range better, and become less oppressive at high ranges especially as it has become stronger and stronger over time.
900 range is still very functionally worthwhile for a stun and a barraging pistol phantasm, and
would feel much better to have the scepter/pistol kit balanced by a more mid range style instead of having openers from 1200 range.
What do y'all think of reducing the range of mesmer pistol? Does it truly seem balanced to have a kit with such high firepower at full power ranged weapon range, or should it be constrained to a shorter range to put a little more positioning and constraint to it?

I like how you created account simply to post it :DIm not sure if you are trolling or not so im just leave the comment here so I get notifications, have good day!

I just talk a lot, and people would tell me to take my ideas to forums, so I made an account to post on forums. I've actually been playing the game for near 7 years by now. I don't see how a legitimate concern against pistol would be trolling: pistol seems to be overperforming as of late, given it outshines torch in PvP nowadays for meta. If it really seems like such an absurd idea though, would you care to elaborate?

Torch is shit.Pistol is not shit ( while traited )So pistol is used instead of a torch.You are of the people that are give garbage choice, and ok choice. You look at the both and say The ok Choice is better then the garbage one so it should be brought down it its shitty level.Instead of nerfing pistol post buff torch to make it on par with pistol.

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@phokus.8934 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:I like how you created account simply to post it :DIm not sure if you are trolling or not so im just leave the comment here so I get notifications, have good day!

Let's hope he doesn't figure out Mesmer greatsword being 1200 units.

Illusionary Wave should have 1200 range to match up with the other skills. :p

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  • 1 month later...

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@FalsePromises.6398 said:Let's look at other classes and their pistols.
Thief pistols are 900 range. Engineer pistols are 600-900 range.
Most of those skills are more effective at close range. Now, with that set down,
why is mesmer pistol 1200 range?
The only weapons that can be comboed with it are axe, sword, and scepter, and scepter is 900 range.
Would it not make sense to reduce the range of mesmer pistol to match scepter?
Furthermore, mesmer pistol was balanced in the past, but
as its received buffs along the lines of guaranteed bleeding, stun duration increases, etc., it's become a stronger and more oppressive weapon.
I believe that
mesmer pistol could be reduced to 900 range to: be more consistent with other pistol skills in the game, match scepter range better, and become less oppressive at high ranges especially as it has become stronger and stronger over time.
900 range is still very functionally worthwhile for a stun and a barraging pistol phantasm, and
would feel much better to have the scepter/pistol kit balanced by a more mid range style instead of having openers from 1200 range.
What do y'all think of reducing the range of mesmer pistol? Does it truly seem balanced to have a kit with such high firepower at full power ranged weapon range, or should it be constrained to a shorter range to put a little more positioning and constraint to it?

I like how you created account simply to post it :DIm not sure if you are trolling or not so im just leave the comment here so I get notifications, have good day!

I just talk a lot, and people would tell me to take my ideas to forums, so I made an account to post on forums. I've actually been playing the game for near 7 years by now. I don't see how a legitimate concern against pistol would be trolling: pistol seems to be overperforming as of late, given it outshines torch in PvP nowadays for meta. If it really seems like such an absurd idea though, would you care to elaborate?

Torch is kitten.Pistol is not kitten ( while traited )So pistol is used instead of a torch.You are of the people that are give garbage choice, and ok choice. You look at the both and say The ok Choice is better then the garbage one so it should be brought down it its kitten level.Instead of nerfing pistol post buff torch to make it on par with pistol.

My suggested change doesn't nerf pistol damage in any way, just makes it less of a high range weapon. I didn't say remove bleeding stacks or remove the power aspects of pistol. I'm not saying gut it. I didn't even say nerf the stun duration, which in honesty feels absurd, but that's not my point in this post. I'm saying tone down the range so that it isn't a condi lovechild of ranger longbow AND shortbow on a mesmer offhander. Torch probably does need a buff, it's fallen out of style as a whole, but pistol's range is unnecessarily long.

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@FalsePromises.6398 said:

@FalsePromises.6398 said:Let's look at other classes and their pistols.
Thief pistols are 900 range. Engineer pistols are 600-900 range.
Most of those skills are more effective at close range. Now, with that set down,
why is mesmer pistol 1200 range?
The only weapons that can be comboed with it are axe, sword, and scepter, and scepter is 900 range.
Would it not make sense to reduce the range of mesmer pistol to match scepter?
Furthermore, mesmer pistol was balanced in the past, but
as its received buffs along the lines of guaranteed bleeding, stun duration increases, etc., it's become a stronger and more oppressive weapon.
I believe that
mesmer pistol could be reduced to 900 range to: be more consistent with other pistol skills in the game, match scepter range better, and become less oppressive at high ranges especially as it has become stronger and stronger over time.
900 range is still very functionally worthwhile for a stun and a barraging pistol phantasm, and
would feel much better to have the scepter/pistol kit balanced by a more mid range style instead of having openers from 1200 range.
What do y'all think of reducing the range of mesmer pistol? Does it truly seem balanced to have a kit with such high firepower at full power ranged weapon range, or should it be constrained to a shorter range to put a little more positioning and constraint to it?

I like how you created account simply to post it :DIm not sure if you are trolling or not so im just leave the comment here so I get notifications, have good day!

I just talk a lot, and people would tell me to take my ideas to forums, so I made an account to post on forums. I've actually been playing the game for near 7 years by now. I don't see how a legitimate concern against pistol would be trolling: pistol seems to be overperforming as of late, given it outshines torch in PvP nowadays for meta. If it really seems like such an absurd idea though, would you care to elaborate?

Torch is kitten.Pistol is not kitten ( while traited )So pistol is used instead of a torch.You are of the people that are give garbage choice, and ok choice. You look at the both and say The ok Choice is better then the garbage one so it should be brought down it its kitten level.Instead of nerfing pistol post buff torch to make it on par with pistol.

My suggested change doesn't nerf pistol damage in any way, just makes it less of a high range weapon. I didn't say remove bleeding stacks or remove the power aspects of pistol. I'm not saying gut it. I didn't even say nerf the stun duration, which in honesty feels absurd, but that's not my point in this post. I'm saying tone down the range so that it isn't a condi lovechild of ranger longbow AND shortbow on a mesmer offhander. Torch probably does need a buff, it's fallen out of style as a whole, but pistol's range is unnecessarily long.

Torch didnt "fallen out of style"it applies burning and thats it, on both 2x 30s cooldowns. phantasm always misses, meaning its 3s stealth weapon and thats it.If you played ANY ammount of condi mes you would know that nerfing pistols range to 900 would gut its damage, people would walk out of the channel to avoid bleeding.It would also remove ANY chase potential the build has. its already REALLY FUCKING bad at it and you wanna make it even worse.If you dont know what you are talking about dont talk.

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@Don Vega Van Kain.9842 said:According to Metabattle, Engi have 7 meta builds, Thiefs 6 meta builds and mesmer ??......just 2 meta builds (core shatter basiclly the same as power shatter just adding mirage) and ppl still cry about mesmer.......

I think people will continue to whine about Mesmer till he lose condi's and all his clones forever.

People complain about condi mirage because mirage relies too much on overvamped quality of life (QoL) aspects and UI clutter the higher skill you get. Mirage can UI clutter with deceptive evasion and standing still, preventing proper targeting of them because their clone overlaps their model and takes target instead, punishing builds that rely on targeting to attack. Furthermore, the concept of target breaking again punishes people and forces them to click target again before casting anything. Mirage cloak being usable during stun/immob/fear makes mirage impossible to stunchain at any point if they have one evade, don't even need to use a stunbreak to do so. Scepter ambush is too long of a cast and hits too many times, resulting in near abusive levels of bleeding from a single ambush cast that is near impossible to completely dodge because the cast is... twice as long as a dodge roll, 5 attacks per clone, bleeding on every critical hit on top of its other effects that more often just become cover conditions that get cleansed instead of the bleeding. Furthermore, the ambush attacks of clones become counterplay to environmental cover and making range because clones use the superspeed of using mirage cloak to run around corners, behind walls, to charge gaps, etc., and STILL have enough time left on that ambush window to cast their ambush at no cost to its damage, resulting often in staggered ambushes akin to staggered shatters. Then, a reflect added on to the end of the dodge roll or other evade if you evade a single attack? And then an AoE daze when you cast heal? Free cleanses when you get stunned, not even when you do anything yourself? Chaos storm granting aegis on top of their other evades, blocks, and invulnerabilities? And these clones that now got buffed with evade frames used most often when the enemy winds up big attacks or big AoE's (just because the caster will likely want to dodge) end up tripling the durability of these clones and they still retain the vitality of normal clones? Mirage is hated for good reason, if you ask me. The problem just becomes Anet often doesn't seem to fully have a feel for why, so they attack some of the bigger, more vital offenses without addressing the QoL and defensive aspects that make the class obnoxious to fight and specifically punishing towards builds that don't have high mobilty and cleave akin to heavies. It's not about being able to find the mirage nowadays, it's more often about getting to click on them without having target broken, stealth, etc., giving them windows where they can punish you while you're just trying to crawl through the UI clutter. That's why mirage is worth complaining about.

tl;dr mirage has too many quality of life and defensive aspects arenanet hasn't touched properly that end up making the class a pain in the ass to fight which result in people complaining and arenanet attacking the skill effects instead of mechanics

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@FalsePromises.6398 said:Let's look at other classes and their pistols.
Thief pistols are 900 range. Engineer pistols are 600-900 range.
Most of those skills are more effective at close range. Now, with that set down,
why is mesmer pistol 1200 range?
The only weapons that can be comboed with it are axe, sword, and scepter, and scepter is 900 range.
Would it not make sense to reduce the range of mesmer pistol to match scepter?
Furthermore, mesmer pistol was balanced in the past, but
as its received buffs along the lines of guaranteed bleeding, stun duration increases, etc., it's become a stronger and more oppressive weapon.
I believe that
mesmer pistol could be reduced to 900 range to: be more consistent with other pistol skills in the game, match scepter range better, and become less oppressive at high ranges especially as it has become stronger and stronger over time.
900 range is still very functionally worthwhile for a stun and a barraging pistol phantasm, and
would feel much better to have the scepter/pistol kit balanced by a more mid range style instead of having openers from 1200 range.
What do y'all think of reducing the range of mesmer pistol? Does it truly seem balanced to have a kit with such high firepower at full power ranged weapon range, or should it be constrained to a shorter range to put a little more positioning and constraint to it?

I like how you created account simply to post it :DIm not sure if you are trolling or not so im just leave the comment here so I get notifications, have good day!

I just talk a lot, and people would tell me to take my ideas to forums, so I made an account to post on forums. I've actually been playing the game for near 7 years by now. I don't see how a legitimate concern against pistol would be trolling: pistol seems to be overperforming as of late, given it outshines torch in PvP nowadays for meta. If it really seems like such an absurd idea though, would you care to elaborate?

Torch is kitten.Pistol is not kitten ( while traited )So pistol is used instead of a torch.You are of the people that are give garbage choice, and ok choice. You look at the both and say The ok Choice is better then the garbage one so it should be brought down it its kitten level.Instead of nerfing pistol post buff torch to make it on par with pistol.

My suggested change doesn't nerf pistol damage in any way, just makes it less of a high range weapon. I didn't say remove bleeding stacks or remove the power aspects of pistol. I'm not saying gut it. I didn't even say nerf the stun duration, which in honesty feels absurd, but that's not my point in this post. I'm saying tone down the range so that it isn't a condi lovechild of ranger longbow AND shortbow on a mesmer offhander. Torch probably does need a buff, it's fallen out of style as a whole, but pistol's range is unnecessarily long.

Torch didnt "fallen out of style"it applies burning and thats it, on both 2x 30s cooldowns. phantasm always misses, meaning its 3s stealth weapon and thats it.If you played ANY ammount of condi mes you would know that nerfing pistols range to 900 would gut its damage, people would walk out of the channel to avoid bleeding.It would also remove ANY chase potential the build has. its already REALLY kitten bad at it and you wanna make it even worse.If you dont know what you are talking about dont talk.

Issue I have with that take on it is that you're complaining about chase capability where other classes have similar drawbacks. Sagebrands don't have strong chase. Fire weavers don't have strong chase either. Neither do necromancers in general, condition or power based. Those classes are resultantly countered by kiting. If pistol got range reduced, it'd just affect the entry/chase, it wouldn't even put a drawback that would make them kiteable so as to be killable in doing so. If arenanet wanted strong chase on mirage, clones would be able to use ambushes while running, and would constantly follow players while casting abilities, which would probably end up being broken. That's not the case. Clones stand still, and only move when necessary. Ambushes make clones stand still while casting. Mirage is relatively stationary in terms of design. Anyway, worried about people "running out of channel to avoid damage"? Tell that to holoforge pistol barrage. Tell that to literally any pistol barrage ability when classes that use pistols face high mobility builds. It wouldn't be a unique drawback.

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@FalsePromises.6398 said:

@FalsePromises.6398 said:Let's look at other classes and their pistols.
Thief pistols are 900 range. Engineer pistols are 600-900 range.
Most of those skills are more effective at close range. Now, with that set down,
why is mesmer pistol 1200 range?
The only weapons that can be comboed with it are axe, sword, and scepter, and scepter is 900 range.
Would it not make sense to reduce the range of mesmer pistol to match scepter?
Furthermore, mesmer pistol was balanced in the past, but
as its received buffs along the lines of guaranteed bleeding, stun duration increases, etc., it's become a stronger and more oppressive weapon.
I believe that
mesmer pistol could be reduced to 900 range to: be more consistent with other pistol skills in the game, match scepter range better, and become less oppressive at high ranges especially as it has become stronger and stronger over time.
900 range is still very functionally worthwhile for a stun and a barraging pistol phantasm, and
would feel much better to have the scepter/pistol kit balanced by a more mid range style instead of having openers from 1200 range.
What do y'all think of reducing the range of mesmer pistol? Does it truly seem balanced to have a kit with such high firepower at full power ranged weapon range, or should it be constrained to a shorter range to put a little more positioning and constraint to it?

I like how you created account simply to post it :DIm not sure if you are trolling or not so im just leave the comment here so I get notifications, have good day!

I just talk a lot, and people would tell me to take my ideas to forums, so I made an account to post on forums. I've actually been playing the game for near 7 years by now. I don't see how a legitimate concern against pistol would be trolling: pistol seems to be overperforming as of late, given it outshines torch in PvP nowadays for meta. If it really seems like such an absurd idea though, would you care to elaborate?

Torch is kitten.Pistol is not kitten ( while traited )So pistol is used instead of a torch.You are of the people that are give garbage choice, and ok choice. You look at the both and say The ok Choice is better then the garbage one so it should be brought down it its kitten level.Instead of nerfing pistol post buff torch to make it on par with pistol.

My suggested change doesn't nerf pistol damage in any way, just makes it less of a high range weapon. I didn't say remove bleeding stacks or remove the power aspects of pistol. I'm not saying gut it. I didn't even say nerf the stun duration, which in honesty feels absurd, but that's not my point in this post. I'm saying tone down the range so that it isn't a condi lovechild of ranger longbow AND shortbow on a mesmer offhander. Torch probably does need a buff, it's fallen out of style as a whole, but pistol's range is unnecessarily long.

Torch didnt "fallen out of style"it applies burning and thats it, on both 2x 30s cooldowns. phantasm always misses, meaning its 3s stealth weapon and thats it.If you played ANY ammount of condi mes you would know that nerfing pistols range to 900 would gut its damage, people would walk out of the channel to avoid bleeding.It would also remove ANY chase potential the build has. its already REALLY kitten bad at it and you wanna make it even worse.If you dont know what you are talking about dont talk.

Issue I have with that take on it is that you're complaining about chase capability where other classes have similar drawbacks. Sagebrands don't have strong chase. Fire weavers don't have strong chase either. Neither do necromancers in general, condition or power based. Those classes are resultantly countered by kiting. If pistol got range reduced, it'd just affect the entry/chase, it wouldn't even put a drawback that would make them kiteable so as to be killable in doing so. If arenanet wanted strong chase on mirage, clones would be able to use ambushes while running, and would constantly follow players while casting abilities, which would probably end up being broken. That's not the case. Clones stand still, and only move when necessary. Ambushes make clones stand still while casting. Mirage is relatively stationary in terms of design. Anyway, worried about people "running out of channel to avoid damage"? Tell that to holoforge pistol barrage. Tell that to literally any pistol barrage ability when classes that use pistols face high mobility builds. It wouldn't be a unique drawback.

Rapid fire is power damage that can be used while moving.Same with holo, you eat it, you take damage. Its not condi that gets removed for free 80% of the time.Condi mirage is garbage as It is, I thought the nerfs to staff wouldnt mean much but i was 100% wrong. Daredavil can facetank on node indifinitely without landing anything.50% of the matchups are auto lose, impossible to win.other 50% are with slight advantage, and take time to wrench the victory, warrior, easy matchup. takes 1minute + to win. if you make mistakes you die, if warrior makes mistakes he runs and comes back.It logically doesnt make sense to nerf a shitty build.You dont understand how much 1200-900 range would affect, I wish I could set ignore to people like you.You have not even smallest clue how phantasms work.Do everyone a favour and stop posting nonsense you have not even basic ideas about, thank you very much.

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@FalsePromises.6398 said:Sagebrands don't have strong chase. Fire weavers don't have strong chase either.

and both of those builds are probably among the most overpowered stuff you can play currently. Imagine if they had strong chase on top of what they have now...

Meanwhile Mirage/Mesmer was gutted far enough that even the loud whining on the pvp forum has died down in favor of other classes (not saying Mirage is underpowered).

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@FalsePromises.6398 said:

@"Don Vega Van Kain.9842" said:According to Metabattle, Engi have 7 meta builds, Thiefs 6 meta builds and mesmer ??......just 2 meta builds (core shatter basiclly the same as power shatter just adding mirage) and ppl still cry about mesmer.......

I think people will continue to whine about Mesmer till he lose condi's and all his clones forever.

People complain about condi mirage because mirage relies too much on overvamped quality of life (QoL) aspects and UI clutter the higher skill you get. Mirage can UI clutter with deceptive evasion and standing still, preventing proper targeting of them because their clone overlaps their model and takes target instead, punishing builds that rely on targeting to attack. Furthermore, the concept of target breaking again punishes people and forces them to click target again before casting anything. Mirage cloak being usable during stun/immob/fear makes mirage impossible to stunchain at any point if they have one evade, don't even need to use a stunbreak to do so. Scepter ambush is too long of a cast and hits too many times, resulting in near abusive levels of bleeding from a single ambush cast that is near impossible to completely dodge because the cast is... twice as long as a dodge roll, 5 attacks per clone, bleeding on every critical hit on top of its other effects that more often just become cover conditions that get cleansed instead of the bleeding. Furthermore, the ambush attacks of clones become counterplay to environmental cover and making range because clones use the superspeed of using mirage cloak to run around corners, behind walls, to charge gaps, etc., and STILL have enough time left on that ambush window to cast their ambush at no cost to its damage, resulting often in staggered ambushes akin to staggered shatters. Then, a reflect added on to the end of the dodge roll or other evade if you evade a single attack? And then an AoE daze when you cast heal? Free cleanses when you get stunned, not even when you do anything yourself? Chaos storm granting aegis on top of their other evades, blocks, and invulnerabilities? And these clones that now got buffed with evade frames used most often when the enemy winds up big attacks or big AoE's (just because the caster will likely want to dodge) end up tripling the durability of these clones and they still retain the vitality of normal clones? Mirage is hated for good reason, if you ask me. The problem just becomes Anet often doesn't seem to fully have a feel for why, so they attack some of the bigger, more vital offenses without addressing the QoL and defensive aspects that make the class obnoxious to fight and specifically punishing towards builds that don't have high mobilty and cleave akin to heavies. It's not about being able to find the mirage nowadays, it's more often about getting to click on them without having target broken, stealth, etc., giving them windows where they can punish you while you're just trying to crawl through the UI clutter. That's why mirage is worth complaining about.

tl;dr mirage has too many quality of life and defensive aspects arenanet hasn't touched properly that end up making the class a pain in the kitten to fight which result in people complaining and arenanet attacking the skill effects instead of mechanics

Hi :)

All the wall you wrote can be resume in what i say "I think people will continue to whine about Mesmer till he lose condi's and all his clones forever."

You just talk about clones and re-targeting + the amount of condi and I understand your pov but the solution is not to nerf (again) mesmer they already get gut really hard.

You slightly touch the solution when you've been talking about mechanics but if we touch mechs (nerf/change), we have to buff something else to counter balance.

And i can assure you, my lord, that mesmer have many counter professions which can delete him (thief, ranger, condi fb, fire weaver, scrapper) and once a spec has many counters, i think there's no problem, it's just ppl don't try to adapt theirs self and play always the same thing and want to kill (and survive) to everything with same profession/build. :/

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@"FalsePromises.6398" said:Sagebrands don't have strong chase. Fire weavers don't have strong chase either.

and both of those builds are probably among the most overpowered stuff you can play currently. Imagine if they had strong chase on top of what they have now...

Meanwhile Mirage/Mesmer was gutted far enough that even the loud whining on the pvp forum has died down in favor of other classes (not saying Mirage is underpowered).

My argument isn't give those classes chase. It's that mesmer doesn't need long range pistol abilities under the guise of "chase" because not all classes or builds have/need "chase" to be successful.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@FalsePromises.6398 said:Let's look at other classes and their pistols.
Thief pistols are 900 range. Engineer pistols are 600-900 range.
Most of those skills are more effective at close range. Now, with that set down,
why is mesmer pistol 1200 range?
The only weapons that can be comboed with it are axe, sword, and scepter, and scepter is 900 range.
Would it not make sense to reduce the range of mesmer pistol to match scepter?
Furthermore, mesmer pistol was balanced in the past, but
as its received buffs along the lines of guaranteed bleeding, stun duration increases, etc., it's become a stronger and more oppressive weapon.
I believe that
mesmer pistol could be reduced to 900 range to: be more consistent with other pistol skills in the game, match scepter range better, and become less oppressive at high ranges especially as it has become stronger and stronger over time.
900 range is still very functionally worthwhile for a stun and a barraging pistol phantasm, and
would feel much better to have the scepter/pistol kit balanced by a more mid range style instead of having openers from 1200 range.
What do y'all think of reducing the range of mesmer pistol? Does it truly seem balanced to have a kit with such high firepower at full power ranged weapon range, or should it be constrained to a shorter range to put a little more positioning and constraint to it?

I like how you created account simply to post it :DIm not sure if you are trolling or not so im just leave the comment here so I get notifications, have good day!

I just talk a lot, and people would tell me to take my ideas to forums, so I made an account to post on forums. I've actually been playing the game for near 7 years by now. I don't see how a legitimate concern against pistol would be trolling: pistol seems to be overperforming as of late, given it outshines torch in PvP nowadays for meta. If it really seems like such an absurd idea though, would you care to elaborate?

Torch is kitten.Pistol is not kitten ( while traited )So pistol is used instead of a torch.You are of the people that are give garbage choice, and ok choice. You look at the both and say The ok Choice is better then the garbage one so it should be brought down it its kitten level.Instead of nerfing pistol post buff torch to make it on par with pistol.

My suggested change doesn't nerf pistol damage in any way, just makes it less of a high range weapon. I didn't say remove bleeding stacks or remove the power aspects of pistol. I'm not saying gut it. I didn't even say nerf the stun duration, which in honesty feels absurd, but that's not my point in this post. I'm saying tone down the range so that it isn't a condi lovechild of ranger longbow AND shortbow on a mesmer offhander. Torch probably does need a buff, it's fallen out of style as a whole, but pistol's range is unnecessarily long.

Torch didnt "fallen out of style"it applies burning and thats it, on both 2x 30s cooldowns. phantasm always misses, meaning its 3s stealth weapon and thats it.If you played ANY ammount of condi mes you would know that nerfing pistols range to 900 would gut its damage, people would walk out of the channel to avoid bleeding.It would also remove ANY chase potential the build has. its already REALLY kitten bad at it and you wanna make it even worse.If you dont know what you are talking about dont talk.

Issue I have with that take on it is that you're complaining about chase capability where other classes have similar drawbacks. Sagebrands don't have strong chase. Fire weavers don't have strong chase either. Neither do necromancers in general, condition or power based. Those classes are resultantly countered by kiting. If pistol got range reduced, it'd just affect the entry/chase, it wouldn't even put a drawback that would make them kiteable so as to be killable in doing so. If arenanet wanted strong chase on mirage, clones would be able to use ambushes while running, and would constantly follow players while casting abilities, which would probably end up being broken. That's not the case. Clones stand still, and only move when necessary. Ambushes make clones stand still while casting. Mirage is relatively stationary in terms of design. Anyway, worried about people "running out of channel to avoid damage"? Tell that to holoforge pistol barrage. Tell that to literally any pistol barrage ability when classes that use pistols face high mobility builds. It wouldn't be a unique drawback.

Rapid fire is power damage that can be used while moving.Same with holo, you eat it, you take damage. Its not condi that gets removed for free 80% of the time.Condi mirage is garbage as It is, I thought the nerfs to staff wouldnt mean much but i was 100% wrong. Daredavil can facetank on node indifinitely without landing anything.50% of the matchups are auto lose, impossible to win.other 50% are with slight advantage, and take time to wrench the victory, warrior, easy matchup. takes 1minute + to win. if you make mistakes you die, if warrior makes mistakes he runs and comes back.It logically doesnt make sense to nerf a kitten build.You dont understand how much 1200-900 range would affect, I wish I could set ignore to people like you.You have not even smallest clue how phantasms work.Do everyone a favour and stop posting nonsense you have not even basic ideas about, thank you very much.

To begin, I never mentioned Rapid Fire because it's a longbow skill. I never mentioned ranger because they have good chase, that's part of their capabilities. Also, don't draw a line between power/conditions when comparing skill mechanics: they all have effects when they land, and have different counterplay. You can reduce power damage with traits, protection, and nullify whatever does hit with enough heals. Conditions can scale based on effect, ignore toughness and damage reductions like protection, and resultantly have cleanse counterplay. Also, is daredevil really your trump card argument? Acro daredevil, one of the most absurdly designed builds since bunker chrono? Is it really a legitimate comparison to compare one of the most defensively abusive builds in the game with mirage? How does that even translate to your point? "Look I'm not broken like he is"? Furthermore, you sound like you're reasoning your arguments in a duel vacuum, as if points and incentive to stay near a target don't exist in conquest. Conquest isn't won with long term duels, but rather with staying power. If you want to bring up warrior, the known counter to mesmer, and say "My kit is balanced because this counters me", then I will say fire weaver is balanced because necromancer can counter it. It's not congruent to claim one avenue of attack indicates balance. Anyway, the majority of mirages I meet tend to be on the more successful end of a duel. You sound like you're just basing your arguments on self experience and resultantly self pity. Condi mirages does not become a "kitten" build because it has counterplay mechanics, and it's justified to nerf oppressive mechanics in general, especially when they're not a mainstay. I've seen plenty mirages suffice in duel environments, and I don't even need to go to ranked to see that, it's literally there in the lobby arena. The mirages that get trashed are the ones who don't adapt to their enemy's kit or don't pressure enough. I know how phantasms work, and a 900 range threshold would make pistol less oppressive from long range at only the loss of long range easy to land entry combos with no real risk attached. If you can tell me why pistol should stay 1200 range aside from "chase" capabilities and the complaint of enemies running away which equates not to you being unable to pin but rather the enemy having to cede a point to you because of your sheer offensive capability, I'd be interested. Otherwise, please don't be disrespectful.

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@Don Vega Van Kain.9842 said:

@Don Vega Van Kain.9842 said:According to Metabattle, Engi have 7 meta builds, Thiefs 6 meta builds and mesmer ??......just 2 meta builds (core shatter basiclly the same as power shatter just adding mirage) and ppl still cry about mesmer.......

I think people will continue to whine about Mesmer till he lose condi's and all his clones forever.

People complain about condi mirage because mirage relies too much on overvamped quality of life (QoL) aspects and UI clutter the higher skill you get. Mirage can UI clutter with deceptive evasion and standing still, preventing proper targeting of them because their clone overlaps their model and takes target instead, punishing builds that rely on targeting to attack. Furthermore, the concept of target breaking again punishes people and forces them to click target again before casting anything. Mirage cloak being usable during stun/immob/fear makes mirage impossible to stunchain at any point if they have one evade, don't even need to use a stunbreak to do so. Scepter ambush is too long of a cast and hits too many times, resulting in near abusive levels of bleeding from a single ambush cast that is near impossible to completely dodge because the cast is... twice as long as a dodge roll, 5 attacks per clone, bleeding on every critical hit on top of its other effects that more often just become cover conditions that get cleansed instead of the bleeding. Furthermore, the ambush attacks of clones become counterplay to environmental cover and making range because clones use the superspeed of using mirage cloak to run around corners, behind walls, to charge gaps, etc., and STILL have enough time left on that ambush window to cast their ambush at no cost to its damage, resulting often in staggered ambushes akin to staggered shatters. Then, a reflect added on to the end of the dodge roll or other evade if you evade a single attack? And then an AoE daze when you cast heal? Free cleanses when you get stunned, not even when you do anything yourself? Chaos storm granting aegis on top of their other evades, blocks, and invulnerabilities? And these clones that now got buffed with evade frames used most often when the enemy winds up big attacks or big AoE's (just because the caster will likely want to dodge) end up tripling the durability of these clones and they still retain the vitality of normal clones? Mirage is hated for good reason, if you ask me. The problem just becomes Anet often doesn't seem to fully have a feel for why, so they attack some of the bigger, more vital offenses without addressing the QoL and defensive aspects that make the class obnoxious to fight and specifically punishing towards builds that don't have high mobilty and cleave akin to heavies. It's not about being able to find the mirage nowadays, it's more often about getting to click on them without having target broken, stealth, etc., giving them windows where they can punish you while you're just trying to crawl through the UI clutter. That's why mirage is worth complaining about.

tl;dr mirage has too many quality of life and defensive aspects arenanet hasn't touched properly that end up making the class a pain in the kitten to fight which result in people complaining and arenanet attacking the skill effects instead of mechanics

Hi :)

All the wall you wrote can be resume in what i say "I think people will continue to whine about Mesmer till he lose condi's and all his clones forever."

You just talk about clones and re-targeting + the amount of condi and I understand your pov but the solution is not to nerf (again) mesmer they already get gut really hard.

You slightly touch the solution when you've been talking about mechanics but if we touch mechs (nerf/change), we have to buff something else to counter balance.

And i can assure you, my lord, that mesmer have many counter professions which can delete him (thief, ranger, condi fb, fire weaver, scrapper) and once a spec has many counters, i think there's no problem, it's just ppl don't try to adapt theirs self and play always the same thing and want to kill (and survive) to everything with same profession/build. :/

When you talk counter professions and list "thief, ranger, condi fb, fire weaver, scrapper", it doesn't really convince me when four of those are considered some of the most overpowered, abusive, or least counterable in a not-so-healthy way playstyles. I'd also like to clear up the summary you implied by saying that I'm not referring to removing clones but rather adjusting mechanics that are just fisherpricing mesmer when they can evade while CC'd or they can abuse click target clutter, e.g. using deceptive evasion to stack a clone directly on yourself and become near impossible to click on even when found, or how target breaking is just a direct punishment to classes that rely on having the proper enemy selected to perform abilities instead of just having AoE or cleave abilities that can be thrown in a general direction without need to click target or tab target in any sense. Furthermore, I agree that if things get nerfed they do need counterbalance buffs, but the way I see it, the mechanics mirage can abuse aren't strictly features of the elite spec, nor are they necessarily vital design: they're just abusive quality of life mechanics and tricks that don't make sense in balance retrospect. Like, say, look at necromancer minionmancer. Are they impossible to click because they'll stack a wurm on top of them, or stand inside a bone fiend? No. I'm not saying remove clones and condi, I'm saying fix clone UI cluttering tricks so mirage is more sensible to fight when one's sensible enough to find the right target, and remove the ability to go "Uh oh! Stun incoming! I better just dodge while stunned instead of dodge the stun itself like all other classes do!"

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@"FalsePromises.6398"you have shown yet again that you cant read properly, dont understand or straight up troll.1 Warrior is supposed to be countered by condi mes, not the other way around2 Weaver counters cmes3 Thief counters cmesIm being disrespectful becouse you go on forums, and ask for nerfs for something you dont play or understand, becouse .... I honestly dont even know why, for shits and giggles I guess.You are the one being disrespectful here. The fact that almost nobody even bothers commenting on the nonsense you posted would be enough for most people, but you keep going.Here is a thing for you mate, CMIRAGE doesnt get to pin his target.Every single meta or nonmeta playable build, has more. I repeat MORE tools to escape CC/lockdown then cmirage has CC.Let me repeat it for you.As Cmirage, you can land every single lockdown ability you have you will STILL not lock down ANYONE.As for you mate to put it into simplicity so you can understand.IF I use p4 from range, and phantasms spawns at 700 units away from you, you have to move 500 units to get out of range.If the nerf goes throught you would have to move 200 unints, meaning you wouldnt take any damage from phantasms, ever. EVER due how phantasms work.The only way Cmirage kills anything is when that "thing" kills itself on it.have a good day and hopefully you wills top posting nonsense like this in the future

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@FalsePromises.6398 said:

@FalsePromises.6398 said:Sagebrands don't have strong chase. Fire weavers don't have strong chase either.

and both of those builds are probably among the most overpowered stuff you can play currently. Imagine if they had strong chase on top of what they have now...

Meanwhile Mirage/Mesmer was gutted far enough that even the loud whining on the pvp forum has died down in favor of other classes (not saying Mirage is underpowered).

My argument isn't give those classes chase. It's that mesmer doesn't need long range pistol abilities under the guise of "chase" because not all classes or builds have/need "chase" to be successful.

Actually you brought those classes up as argument that chase is not needed. Which I strongly disagree with since both builds you mentioned don't need chase abilities because they are vastly superior in multiple areas over cmirage. I disagreed with the notion of taking some, if not the 2 most, overpowered builds as argument to balance ANYTHING which is weaker than them.

Also the way phantasms work begs to disagree with your assessment that pistol on mesmer needs a range decrease. Then again, who cares. Not as thought your topic draws a lot of discussion.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@FalsePromises.6398 said:Sagebrands don't have strong chase. Fire weavers don't have strong chase either.

and both of those builds are probably among the most overpowered stuff you can play currently. Imagine if they had strong chase on top of what they have now...

Meanwhile Mirage/Mesmer was gutted far enough that even the loud whining on the pvp forum has died down in favor of other classes (not saying Mirage is underpowered).

My argument isn't give those classes chase. It's that mesmer doesn't need long range pistol abilities under the guise of "chase" because not all classes or builds have/need "chase" to be successful.

Actually you brought those classes up as argument that chase is not needed. Which I strongly disagree with since both builds you mentioned don't need chase abilities because they are vastly superior in multiple areas over cmirage. I disagreed with the notion of taking some, if not the 2 most, overpowered builds as argument to balance ANYTHING which is weaker than them.

Also the way phantasms work begs to disagree with your assessment that pistol on mesmer needs a range decrease. Then again, who cares. Not as thought your topic draws a lot of discussion.

I did bring up those classes as argument that "chase is not needed" in every build in order for them to be successful, yet some styles do depend on it for reasons of lacking in other respects. Second half of the idea is important. If you don't like comparing builds with similar parameters of weak chase but strong and sufficient effectiveness in staying power combat, maybe you'll consider other similar styles like necromancers? Which, in retrospective summation becomes a good portion of the current classes if we're being honest? The only classes I truly feel have good chase oriented combat are rev, ranger, thief, and warrior. That leaves engineer, guardian, necromancer, elementalist, and mesmer as staying power classes, which vary with mesmer and elementalist largely through build. Anyway, if you want to talk about "the way phantasms work" but not divulge further on that, it's really just putting a period on the discussion in that lane, and I'll just consider it either one of two things: a copout or a real desire not to discuss that possibly lengthy subject... which I can feel you on that, I'm starting to get tired bouncing back and forth on this post, so I won't blame you if you just don't want to respond. I mean, unless you're basing "the way phantasms work" off of what the person above you said about phantasm universal spawn range thresholds, which is, as divulged in the other message, based on placement origins and how one would manage such position based on environment, which doesn't take too much brainpower to do if it's considered in the dueling environment.

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