What's the counterplay to Confusion

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:You shouldnt EXPECT to get a freebe, you got hit, pay the price.

Fair point. No arguing that. <3That rationale should also be applied to Mirage cloak.

yes, along with many things.most people dont get the sad truth, if there is 10 overpowered things, nerfing half of them only makes things worse :D

That depends on whether the balancing team finishes the job or not, or leaves it half done. Time will tell.

I dont have 500 years of lifespan to find out, they had 7 years and they have failed.I like incoming patch but I suspect its only gonna get worse, the last thing I wanna see is 6 firebrands in each game vomiting blinds aegis heals and cleanses.

[Curennos.9307]

On one hand, maybe you should learn to avoid skills that apply a lot o f stacks of any condition. Condi has multiple avenues of counterplay - dodge/block/invuln, heal the damage, cleanse, resistance (not that there's uch of this flying around). It's like asking "Is there any counterplay to mitigating the damage I've already taken?" Well, yes, but, you already took the hit, so of course your options are going to be rather limited.

On the other hand, maybe some condis shouldn't be attached to easily to instant/near instant skills (Steal in particular with the GM trait Confusion on steal is horrid design), and maybe quickness shouldn't exist.

[BadMed.3846]

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@BadMed.3846 said:

@SeikeNz.3526 said:

@BadMed.3846 said:

@SeikeNz.3526 said:what is the counterplay of power damage?Stow weapon and kiting?

I find spefically hard to fight against every class that can constantly pressure you after applying power damagenecro is easier to avoid the damage but warriors thiefs and holos oh godthe only thing i can do is run half map

Get out of LoS, use obstacles, watch and dodge the hit, kite....

What can you do with nonstop application of confusion and torment? Don't attack and don't move? Stay out of range and keep abusing cleanses only to get more stacks with ease?

The whole concept around Condi is flawed. Giving it any boost only promotes unhealthy gameplay and trolling ability.

you also can say that to confusion, if you do all that you dont get hit by confusion <3

Condi is boring

passive play

Explain the bold?

Condi thief dodge as one simple example. Get close and dodge on top of enemy. It's not active and engaging gameplay by any means. Effortless spam.

[Sigmoid.7082]

@BadMed.3846 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@BadMed.3846 said:

@SeikeNz.3526 said:

@BadMed.3846 said:

@SeikeNz.3526 said:what is the counterplay of power damage?Stow weapon and kiting?

I find spefically hard to fight against every class that can constantly pressure you after applying power damagenecro is easier to avoid the damage but warriors thiefs and holos oh godthe only thing i can do is run half map

Get out of LoS, use obstacles, watch and dodge the hit, kite....

What can you do with nonstop application of confusion and torment? Don't attack and don't move? Stay out of range and keep abusing cleanses only to get more stacks with ease?

The whole concept around Condi is flawed. Giving it any boost only promotes unhealthy gameplay and trolling ability.

you also can say that to confusion, if you do all that you dont get hit by confusion <3

Condi is boring

passive play

Explain the bold?

Condi thief dodge as one simple example. Get close and dodge on top of enemy. It's not active and engaging gameplay by any means. Effortless spam.

Do an example that is not one of the meta builds? Else your issue is not with conditions but those builds themselves. Also in your example someone is doing something. by definition its not passive play. Lastly low effort, high reward builds exist for both damage types.

[apharma.3741]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:You shouldnt EXPECT to get a freebe, you got hit, pay the price.

Fair point. No arguing that. <3That rationale should also be applied to Mirage cloak.

yes, along with many things.most people dont get the sad truth, if there is 10 overpowered things, nerfing half of them only makes things worse :D

That depends on whether the balancing team finishes the job or not, or leaves it half done. Time will tell.

I dont have 500 years of lifespan to find out, they had 7 years and they have failed.I like incoming patch but I suspect its only gonna get worse, the last thing I wanna see is 6 firebrands in each game vomiting blinds aegis heals and cleanses.

That's a bit harsh, balance was actually pretty good just before HoT. Sure there were some problems but everyone had niches and we had a variety of power and condition builds.

I know people will be quick to go "yeah but X class wasn't meta" to which I reply META stands for Most Effective Tactic Available, not everything can be the most effective but you can have a state where most things are playable and where skill will be the deciding factor in 99% of all cases.

[Hot Boy.7138]

Confusion is broken in it's implementation. People will try to justify its balance. What I do is when I fight a condi mesmer, i know their damage is usually front loaded so I will cleanse the first burst of confusion, and then i'll try to pressure them as much as I can. If it's a thief, I cleanse as often as I can cause their damage don't come in waves like mesmer. It comes steady.

[Eddbopkins.2630]

Confusion should have an internal cool down like every other Condi skill and tick at a regular rate as opposed to every skill useage.

[ZDragon.3046]

As someone else said i dont think confusion on its own is a problem only when paired like things with torment does it make counterplay seem impossible. Mesmers have a lot of stacked designs that ideally punish people for doing actions or moving or using skills. When compiled all together can be very frustrating at times.Torment > punishes movingConfusion > punishes using skillsSome traits > punish foes for not using skills causing them to take more damageSome traits > over pushing landing interrupts.

Ideally each of these things when looked at alone is fineLooking at them together is more of a problem

[Leonidrex.5649]

@ZDragon.3046 said:As someone else said i dont think confusion on its own is a problem only when paired like things with torment does it make counterplay seem impossible. Mesmers have a lot of stacked designs that ideally punish people for doing actions or moving or using skills. When compiled all together can be very frustrating at times.Torment > punishes movingConfusion > punishes using skillsSome traits > punish foes for not using skills causing them to take more damageSome traits > over pushing landing interrupts.

Ideally each of these things when looked at alone is fineLooking at them together is more of a problem

I suggest you flip a coin.Troment -> rewards NOT moving.Confusion -> rewards NOT using skills.some traits -> underperforming untill X happens, while overperforming with big questionmar ???? while X is not using skill, i suspect you mean mental anguish? what people need to realize is that its 10-20% dmg boos to shatters only on GRANDMASTER, other classes have perma 10% boost to everything, while being near permanent.interrupt traits should be thought over at 1 by 1 basis.dueling interrupt is useless, domination interrupt would be very good, but its power based so cant be abused by condi mes + its bugged so its actually medicore.Its actually one of the best designed traits in my opinion. Chaos interrupt is useless, and chrono cc/interrupt doesnt matter becouse chrono is unusable in pvp ( for a good reason mind you but the fact stands ).

[Hot Boy.7138]

@ZDragon.3046 said:As someone else said i dont think confusion on its own is a problem only when paired like things with torment does it make counterplay seem impossible. Mesmers have a lot of stacked designs that ideally punish people for doing actions or moving or using skills. When compiled all together can be very frustrating at times.Torment > punishes movingConfusion > punishes using skillsSome traits > punish foes for not using skills causing them to take more damageSome traits > over pushing landing interrupts.

Ideally each of these things when looked at alone is fineLooking at them together is more of a problem

I have to agree with you completely. Giving one build access to all of this is broken and overwhelming to fight.

[babazhook.6805]

@BadMed.3846 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@BadMed.3846 said:

@SeikeNz.3526 said:

@BadMed.3846 said:

@SeikeNz.3526 said:what is the counterplay of power damage?Stow weapon and kiting?

I find spefically hard to fight against every class that can constantly pressure you after applying power damagenecro is easier to avoid the damage but warriors thiefs and holos oh godthe only thing i can do is run half map

Get out of LoS, use obstacles, watch and dodge the hit, kite....

What can you do with nonstop application of confusion and torment? Don't attack and don't move? Stay out of range and keep abusing cleanses only to get more stacks with ease?

The whole concept around Condi is flawed. Giving it any boost only promotes unhealthy gameplay and trolling ability.

you also can say that to confusion, if you do all that you dont get hit by confusion <3

Condi is boring

passive play

Explain the bold?

Condi thief dodge as one simple example. Get close and dodge on top of enemy. It's not active and engaging gameplay by any means. Effortless spam.

Having to get close and then dodge in order to apply those conditions from the dodge is active gameplay. It can also be countered via ones own dodges or blocks or by opening range again. A Thief spamming dodges just to apply conditions is then unable to dodge an incoming attack as they have exhausted their dodges.

There is nothing more "passive" about Condition damage then power damage. All require an attack in the first place. The only difference is the power damage all front loaded happening in an instant if not avoided.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"ZDragon.3046" said:As someone else said i dont think confusion on its own is a problem only when paired like things with torment does it make counterplay seem impossible. Mesmers have a lot of stacked designs that ideally punish people for doing actions or moving or using skills. When compiled all together can be very frustrating at times.Torment > punishes movingConfusion > punishes using skillsSome traits > punish foes for not using skills causing them to take more damageSome traits > over pushing landing interrupts.

Ideally each of these things when looked at alone is fineLooking at them together is more of a problem

I suggest you flip a coin.Troment -> rewards NOT moving.No because its still doing damage thats not a reward lol for the player inflicted with torment even more so in competitive play where you will need to constantly move. Its unrealistic to think that someone will just stop moving because they have torment on them.Confusion -> rewards NOT using skills.Same as torment to a lesser extent. Most people will still use skill or at least a skill to mount some kind of defense or conditional clear once confusion gets high enough. As i said its unrealistic to think that someone will just stop using skills because they have confusion on them.

some traits -> underperforming untill X happens, while overperforming with big questionmar ???? while X is not using skill, i suspect you mean mental anguish? what people need to realize is that its 10-20% dmg boos to shatters only on GRANDMASTER, other classes have perma 10% boost to everything, while being near permanent.

So this plays into confusion if you claim people stop attacking so much then this is active or its not active and people are still using skills and triggering confusion?As far as other classes go most of them also have some kind of conditional trigger.

Guardian needs you to be in its symbolsNerco needs you to be under 50%Warrior needs land burst or the foe have boonsetc.

For most class its not just active "all the time" or permanent.

interrupt traits should be thought over at 1 by 1 basis.dueling interrupt is useless, domination interrupt would be very good, but its power based so cant be abused by condi mes + its bugged so its actually medicore.Cant have everything in 1 build man same goes for other professions.Its actually one of the best designed traits in my opinion. Chaos interrupt is useless, and chrono cc/interrupt doesnt matter becouse chrono is unusable in pvp ( for a good reason mind you but the fact stands ).

the point is is that its just as I said separately they dont look problematic all together and in realistic combat they become rather daunting

[Leonidrex.5649]

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:As someone else said i dont think confusion on its own is a problem only when paired like things with torment does it make counterplay seem impossible. Mesmers have a lot of stacked designs that ideally punish people for doing actions or moving or using skills. When compiled all together can be very frustrating at times.Torment > punishes movingConfusion > punishes using skillsSome traits > punish foes for not using skills causing them to take more damageSome traits > over pushing landing interrupts.

Ideally each of these things when looked at alone is fineLooking at them together is more of a problem

I suggest you flip a coin.Troment -> rewards NOT moving.No because its still doing damage thats not a reward lol for the player inflicted with torment even more so in competitive play where you will need to constantly move. Its unrealistic to think that someone will just stop moving because they have torment on them.Confusion -> rewards NOT using skills.Same as torment to a lesser extent. Most people will still use skill or at least a skill to mount some kind of defense or conditional clear once confusion gets high enough. As i said its unrealistic to think that someone will just stop using skills because they have confusion on them.

some traits -> underperforming untill X happens, while overperforming with big questionmar ???? while X is not using skill, i suspect you mean mental anguish? what people need to realize is that its 10-20% dmg boos to shatters only on GRANDMASTER, other classes have perma 10% boost to everything, while being near permanent.

So this plays into confusion if you claim people stop attacking so much then this is active or its not active and people are still using skills and triggering confusion?As far as other classes go most of them also have some kind of conditional trigger.

Guardian needs you to be in its symbolsNerco needs you to be under 50%Warrior needs land burst or the foe have boonsetc.

For most class its not just active "all the time" or permanent.

interrupt traits should be thought over at 1 by 1 basis.dueling interrupt is useless, domination interrupt would be very good, but its power based so cant be abused by condi mes + its bugged so its actually medicore.Cant have everything in 1 build man same goes for other professions.Its actually one of the best designed traits in my opinion. Chaos interrupt is useless, and chrono cc/interrupt doesnt matter becouse chrono is unusable in pvp ( for a good reason mind you but the fact stands ).

the point is is that its just as I said separately they dont look problematic all together and in realistic combat they become rather daunting

you 100% get rewarded for not moving with torment, it saved my ass ALOT.you 100% get rewarded for not using abilities with confusion, it saved me ass ALOT.whats the counterplay to warriors bullscharge? its CC removal, you got hit, you pay the price rather simple.if you eat scepter 3 from mesmer you SHOULD take damage, simple, the fact that you can just use barrier and ignore it IS a counterplay, unlike other profesions there is alot of small things that come together that people can use against them.with torment you dont have to StAnD sTiLl int he middle of the teamfight, you can disengage behinda a wall and wait 2-3s, if they follow be ready to burst, if not you just saved some HP, you can cover torment/confusion with blocks.Whats the counterplay to powerdamage? whats the counterplay to rev teleporting from 2k range when you are ina duel and dishing 9k dmg in 0,2s.You 1 know its coming and do something, or you dont and you die.not getting hit in the first place is the real counter, other things are a BONUS IF IT SO HAPPENS YOU CAN MAKE US OF IT.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@"ZDragon.3046"and about damage bonuseshttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vicious_Lacerations vs https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Egotism9% vs 5%permanently up vs only when you are winning.adept vs masteror https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Swift_Terminationhard to proc but its whooping 20% dmg

necro has things likehttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Soul_Eater 10% dmg, easy to proc.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death_Perception insane damage bonus in shroud.my grandmaster increases 10-20% dmg to shatters only, necros gives 33% crit and 300 ferocity, thats triple the effecct if not more, on top of shroud being bigger part of at least reapers damage.

superiority complex is one of the only legit strong as fuck traits mes have.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

Condi mains: jUsT cLeAnSe LoL pOwEr DmG iS oP i CaNt JuSt StAnD sTiLl i NeEd To DoDgE qQPower mains: I hAtE cOnDi ThEy JuSt StAnD tHeRe AfK aNd I mElT iTs NoT fAiR qQ

[ZDragon.3046]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"ZDragon.3046"and about damage bonuseshttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vicious_Lacerations vs https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Egotism9% vs 5%permanently up vs only when you are winning.adept vs masterRequires you to hold a sword in your hand and land critical attacks vs when you are winning (fixed that for you)or https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Swift_Terminationhard to proc but its whooping 20% dmg0 benefit till target reaches 50% hp

necro has things likehttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Soul_Eater 10% dmg, easy to proc.Fair enough on this one its pretty easy to proc that said its still not up 100% of the time inital combat in most situations likely wont have this active even more so if you engage a necromancer who is out of combat or has 0 life force.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death_Perception insane damage bonus in shroud.my grandmaster increases 10-20% dmg to shatters only, necros gives 33% crit and 300 ferocity, thats triple the effecct if not more, on top of shroud being bigger part of at least reapers damage.Not even the same kind of modifier lol and its only in shroud you are making bad comparisons here.If you want to compare proper damage modifiers do stat increased mods vs stat increasing mods not % damage increasing mods to stat increasing mods you are just plucking at random at this point.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:Condi mains: jUsT cLeAnSe LoL pOwEr DmG iS oP i CaNt JuSt StAnD sTiLl i NeEd To DoDgE qQPower mains: I hAtE cOnDi ThEy JuSt StAnD tHeRe AfK aNd I mElT iTs NoT fAiR qQ

This looks like it hurt to type lol

[BadMed.3846]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:As someone else said i dont think confusion on its own is a problem only when paired like things with torment does it make counterplay seem impossible. Mesmers have a lot of stacked designs that ideally punish people for doing actions or moving or using skills. When compiled all together can be very frustrating at times.Torment > punishes movingConfusion > punishes using skillsSome traits > punish foes for not using skills causing them to take more damageSome traits > over pushing landing interrupts.

Ideally each of these things when looked at alone is fineLooking at them together is more of a problem

I suggest you flip a coin.Troment -> rewards NOT moving.No because its still doing damage thats not a reward lol for the player inflicted with torment even more so in competitive play where you will need to constantly move. Its unrealistic to think that someone will just stop moving because they have torment on them.Confusion -> rewards NOT using skills.Same as torment to a lesser extent. Most people will still use skill or at least a skill to mount some kind of defense or conditional clear once confusion gets high enough. As i said its unrealistic to think that someone will just stop using skills because they have confusion on them.

some traits -> underperforming untill X happens, while overperforming with big questionmar ???? while X is not using skill, i suspect you mean mental anguish? what people need to realize is that its 10-20% dmg boos to shatters only on GRANDMASTER, other classes have perma 10% boost to everything, while being near permanent.

So this plays into confusion if you claim people stop attacking so much then this is active or its not active and people are still using skills and triggering confusion?As far as other classes go most of them also have some kind of conditional trigger.

Guardian needs you to be in its symbolsNerco needs you to be under 50%Warrior needs land burst or the foe have boonsetc.

For most class its not just active "all the time" or permanent.

interrupt traits should be thought over at 1 by 1 basis.dueling interrupt is useless, domination interrupt would be very good, but its power based so cant be abused by condi mes + its bugged so its actually medicore.Cant have everything in 1 build man same goes for other professions.Its actually one of the best designed traits in my opinion. Chaos interrupt is useless, and chrono cc/interrupt doesnt matter becouse chrono is unusable in pvp ( for a good reason mind you but the fact stands ).

the point is is that its just as I said separately they dont look problematic all together and in realistic combat they become rather daunting

you 100% get rewarded for not moving with torment, it saved my kitten ALOT.you 100% get rewarded for not using abilities with confusion, it saved me kitten ALOT.whats the counterplay to warriors bullscharge? its CC removal, you got hit, you pay the price rather simple.if you eat scepter 3 from mesmer you SHOULD take damage, simple, the fact that you can just use barrier and ignore it IS a counterplay, unlike other profesions there is alot of small things that come together that people can use against them.with torment you dont have to StAnD sTiLl int he middle of the teamfight, you can disengage behinda a wall and wait 2-3s, if they follow be ready to burst, if not you just saved some HP, you can cover torment/confusion with blocks.Whats the counterplay to powerdamage? whats the counterplay to rev teleporting from 2k range when you are ina duel and dishing 9k dmg in 0,2s.You 1 know its coming and do something, or you dont and you die.not getting hit in the first place is the real counter, other things are a BONUS IF IT SO HAPPENS YOU CAN MAKE US OF IT.

The counterplay to warriors bulls charge is simply watching it and dodging. Most warrior skills have huge tells and are damn easy to avoid. Especially as a Mesmer you should not have any issues with bulls charge.

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

@BadMed.3846 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:As someone else said i dont think confusion on its own is a problem only when paired like things with torment does it make counterplay seem impossible. Mesmers have a lot of stacked designs that ideally punish people for doing actions or moving or using skills. When compiled all together can be very frustrating at times.Torment > punishes movingConfusion > punishes using skillsSome traits > punish foes for not using skills causing them to take more damageSome traits > over pushing landing interrupts.

Ideally each of these things when looked at alone is fineLooking at them together is more of a problem

I suggest you flip a coin.Troment -> rewards NOT moving.No because its still doing damage thats not a reward lol for the player inflicted with torment even more so in competitive play where you will need to constantly move. Its unrealistic to think that someone will just stop moving because they have torment on them.Confusion -> rewards NOT using skills.Same as torment to a lesser extent. Most people will still use skill or at least a skill to mount some kind of defense or conditional clear once confusion gets high enough. As i said its unrealistic to think that someone will just stop using skills because they have confusion on them.

some traits -> underperforming untill X happens, while overperforming with big questionmar ???? while X is not using skill, i suspect you mean mental anguish? what people need to realize is that its 10-20% dmg boos to shatters only on GRANDMASTER, other classes have perma 10% boost to everything, while being near permanent.

So this plays into confusion if you claim people stop attacking so much then this is active or its not active and people are still using skills and triggering confusion?As far as other classes go most of them also have some kind of conditional trigger.

Guardian needs you to be in its symbolsNerco needs you to be under 50%Warrior needs land burst or the foe have boonsetc.

For most class its not just active "all the time" or permanent.

interrupt traits should be thought over at 1 by 1 basis.dueling interrupt is useless, domination interrupt would be very good, but its power based so cant be abused by condi mes + its bugged so its actually medicore.Cant have everything in 1 build man same goes for other professions.Its actually one of the best designed traits in my opinion. Chaos interrupt is useless, and chrono cc/interrupt doesnt matter becouse chrono is unusable in pvp ( for a good reason mind you but the fact stands ).

the point is is that its just as I said separately they dont look problematic all together and in realistic combat they become rather daunting

you 100% get rewarded for not moving with torment, it saved my kitten ALOT.you 100% get rewarded for not using abilities with confusion, it saved me kitten ALOT.whats the counterplay to warriors bullscharge? its CC removal, you got hit, you pay the price rather simple.if you eat scepter 3 from mesmer you SHOULD take damage, simple, the fact that you can just use barrier and ignore it IS a counterplay, unlike other profesions there is alot of small things that come together that people can use against them.with torment you dont have to StAnD sTiLl int he middle of the teamfight, you can disengage behinda a wall and wait 2-3s, if they follow be ready to burst, if not you just saved some HP, you can cover torment/confusion with blocks.Whats the counterplay to powerdamage? whats the counterplay to rev teleporting from 2k range when you are ina duel and dishing 9k dmg in 0,2s.You 1 know its coming and do something, or you dont and you die.not getting hit in the first place is the real counter, other things are a BONUS IF IT SO HAPPENS YOU CAN MAKE US OF IT.

The counterplay to warriors bulls charge is simply watching it and dodging. Most warrior skills have huge tells and are kitten easy to avoid. Especially as a Mesmer you should not have any issues with bulls charge.

Thats all depending on if the warrior is playing close and fast. If at...say...700 distance then yeah, easily avoided however if up close/personal, it can be undetectable if the war does it right.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@BadMed.3846 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:As someone else said i dont think confusion on its own is a problem only when paired like things with torment does it make counterplay seem impossible. Mesmers have a lot of stacked designs that ideally punish people for doing actions or moving or using skills. When compiled all together can be very frustrating at times.Torment > punishes movingConfusion > punishes using skillsSome traits > punish foes for not using skills causing them to take more damageSome traits > over pushing landing interrupts.

Ideally each of these things when looked at alone is fineLooking at them together is more of a problem

I suggest you flip a coin.Troment -> rewards NOT moving.No because its still doing damage thats not a reward lol for the player inflicted with torment even more so in competitive play where you will need to constantly move. Its unrealistic to think that someone will just stop moving because they have torment on them.Confusion -> rewards NOT using skills.Same as torment to a lesser extent. Most people will still use skill or at least a skill to mount some kind of defense or conditional clear once confusion gets high enough. As i said its unrealistic to think that someone will just stop using skills because they have confusion on them.

some traits -> underperforming untill X happens, while overperforming with big questionmar ???? while X is not using skill, i suspect you mean mental anguish? what people need to realize is that its 10-20% dmg boos to shatters only on GRANDMASTER, other classes have perma 10% boost to everything, while being near permanent.

So this plays into confusion if you claim people stop attacking so much then this is active or its not active and people are still using skills and triggering confusion?As far as other classes go most of them also have some kind of conditional trigger.

Guardian needs you to be in its symbolsNerco needs you to be under 50%Warrior needs land burst or the foe have boonsetc.

For most class its not just active "all the time" or permanent.

interrupt traits should be thought over at 1 by 1 basis.dueling interrupt is useless, domination interrupt would be very good, but its power based so cant be abused by condi mes + its bugged so its actually medicore.Cant have everything in 1 build man same goes for other professions.Its actually one of the best designed traits in my opinion. Chaos interrupt is useless, and chrono cc/interrupt doesnt matter becouse chrono is unusable in pvp ( for a good reason mind you but the fact stands ).

the point is is that its just as I said separately they dont look problematic all together and in realistic combat they become rather daunting

you 100% get rewarded for not moving with torment, it saved my kitten ALOT.you 100% get rewarded for not using abilities with confusion, it saved me kitten ALOT.whats the counterplay to warriors bullscharge? its CC removal, you got hit, you pay the price rather simple.if you eat scepter 3 from mesmer you SHOULD take damage, simple, the fact that you can just use barrier and ignore it IS a counterplay, unlike other profesions there is alot of small things that come together that people can use against them.with torment you dont have to StAnD sTiLl int he middle of the teamfight, you can disengage behinda a wall and wait 2-3s, if they follow be ready to burst, if not you just saved some HP, you can cover torment/confusion with blocks.Whats the counterplay to powerdamage? whats the counterplay to rev teleporting from 2k range when you are ina duel and dishing 9k dmg in 0,2s.You 1 know its coming and do something, or you dont and you die.not getting hit in the first place is the real counter, other things are a BONUS IF IT SO HAPPENS YOU CAN MAKE US OF IT.

The counterplay to warriors bulls charge is simply watching it and dodging. Most warrior skills have huge tells and are kitten easy to avoid. Especially as a Mesmer you should not have any issues with bulls charge.

ah yes, dodge bullscharge, then dodge shield 4, then dodge rock, then dodge dash, then dodge stomp, then dodge another rock.I can use the same argument, scepter 3 is VERY telegraphed and easy to dodge.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@"ZDragon.3046" https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vicious_Lacerations9% becouse its on crits OR with a sword, meaning its perma up. perma 9% bonus vs 5% if you are winning.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death_Perceptionreaper shround is Bigger part of necro damage then shatters to mesmer, thats a fact.while having that in mind, 10-20% damage boost will provide less damage, then 33% crit combined with 300 ferocity will, its on the same tier so it should provide sameish value, not triple or more.Becouse of traits like these mesmers are forced to go 1shot builds or condi monkey stuff, you CANT make a bruiser, becouse damage modifiers are unreliable, the only way you can make use of vulnerability % dmg trait is when you stack the shit out of it and burst before its cleansed, only way you make use of anguish is to 1shot bcouse it sucks for sustain, only way you make use of egoism is to 1shot becouse then you are above HP, the only ways to make use of those traits so people use them to 1shot.

then you have https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fencer%27s_Finesse vs https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fencer%27s_Finessethis is just of the top of my head, and its back to back with those traits 150 stats vs 240 stats, on top of power > ferocity for damage on top of this "staff" trait actually giving 120 power while out of it, more reliable AND stronger.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@"ZDragon.3046" https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vicious_Lacerations9% becouse its on crits OR with a sword, meaning its perma up. perma 9% bonus vs 5% if you are winning.Because you link me to pages where you dont read things ill highlight the notes for you on Vicious LacerationsNotesSince this trait applies one stack per hit, it is possible to apply up to 3 stacks with one cleaving skill.The attacks do not need to be made with a sword, you only have to be wielding one.

In other words if you are not holding a sword you dont get the stacks. What this is saying is that you can activate this trait with mace attacks if a sword is in you off hand but you still need "a sword" and you still need to land "critical hits" with attacks while that sword is in your hand. Any time a rev swaps to staff the stacks will not be gained.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death_Perceptionreaper shround is Bigger part of necro damage then shatters to mesmer, thats a fact.At the same note mesmer is much better in damage at base without using shatters than necro will be without using its shroud :) this kind of balances itself out.while having that in mind, 10-20% damage boost will provide less damage, then 33% crit combined with 300 ferocity will, its on the same tier so it should provide sameish value, not triple or more.

Side note, raw percent boost are always better than flat stat boost. This is obvious and basic to understand if you know how multiplication works.Percent boost effects both crits and non crits and in some cases even conditions where as a flat stat boost like ferocity only applies to critical hits.NOT TO MENTION this trait only applies while in shroud outside of shroud it does nothing.

Becouse of traits like these mesmers are forced to go 1shot builds or condi monkey stuff, you CANT make a bruiser, becouse damage modifiers are unreliable, the only way you can make use of vulnerability % dmg trait is when you stack the kitten out of it and burst before its cleansed, only way you make use of anguish is to 1shot bcouse it sucks for sustain, only way you make use of egoism is to 1shot becouse then you are above HP, the only ways to make use of those traits so people use them to 1shot.

Or you cant make a busier because mesmer is not designed to be a bruiser?

then you have https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fencer%27s_Finesse vs https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fencer%27s_Finessethis is just of the top of my head, and its back to back with those traits 150 stats vs 240 stats, on top of power > ferocity for damage on top of this "staff" trait actually giving 120 power while out of it, more reliable AND stronger.???

[Leonidrex.5649]

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@ZDragon.3046

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vicious_Lacerations

9% becouse its on crits OR with a sword, meaning its perma up. perma 9% bonus vs 5% if you are winning.Because you link me to pages where you dont read things ill highlight the notes for you on Vicious Lacerations

NotesSince this trait applies one stack per hit, it is possible to apply up to 3 stacks with one cleaving skill.The attacks do not need to be made with a sword, you only have to be wielding one.

In other words if you are not holding a sword you dont get the stacks. What this is saying is that you can activate this trait with mace attacks if a sword is in you off hand but you still need "a sword" and you still need to land "critical hits" with attacks while that sword is in your hand. Any time a rev swaps to staff the stacks will not be gained.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death_Perception

reaper shround is Bigger part of necro damage then shatters to mesmer, thats a fact.At the same note mesmer is much better in damage at base without using shatters than necro will be without using its shroud :) this kind of balances itself out.while having that in mind, 10-20% damage boost will provide less damage, then 33% crit combined with 300 ferocity will, its on the same tier so it should provide sameish value, not triple or more.

Side note, raw percent boost are always better than flat stat boost. This is obvious and basic to understand if you know how multiplication works.Percent boost effects both crits and non crits and in some cases even conditions where as a flat stat boost like ferocity only applies to critical hits.NOT TO MENTION this trait only applies while in shroud outside of shroud it does nothing.

Becouse of traits like these mesmers are forced to go 1shot builds or condi monkey stuff, you CANT make a bruiser, becouse damage modifiers are unreliable, the only way you can make use of vulnerability % dmg trait is when you stack the kitten out of it and burst before its cleansed, only way you make use of anguish is to 1shot bcouse it sucks for sustain, only way you make use of egoism is to 1shot becouse then you are above HP, the only ways to make use of those traits so people use them to 1shot.

Or you cant make a busier because mesmer is not designed to be a bruiser?

then you have

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fencer%27s_Finesse

vs

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fencer%27s_Finesse

this is just of the top of my head, and its back to back with those traits 150 stats vs 240 stats, on top of power > ferocity for damage on top of this "staff" trait actually giving 120 power while out of it, more reliable AND stronger.???

So mesmer is not supposed to be a bruiser, instead its supposed to be a 1shot mashine or condi monkey ( both whined on ofc )https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vicious_Lacerations READ and comprehend, I dont think you realize what OR means.1(Gain a stack of vicious lacerations on critical strikes) or 2(attacks while wielding a sword)1 gain stack on crit.2 gain stack while wielding a sword.And please dont argue about it, I actually went and made revenant just to test it.Staff crit strikes generated 3% dmg bonus, crit strikes on sword/sword generated 2 stacks.this is actually a bug. Crit on sword should generate 1 stack, doesnt matter in the grand scheme of things becouse this bonus is permanently up.

Shroud skills.If you actually knew what you are talking about, and took your time to crunch the numbers, you would know how much of a damage increase crit chance can be.demolisher reaper will have wheat, 56% crit? that goes to 86% in shroud, combined with 300 fero ( 20% crit damage ), go and calculated the damage difference on AVERAGE. Will be in about 25% damage boost in shroud.so its MORE damage, MORE reliable and EASIER to proc, while increasing bigger part of the damage.

example.mesmer skills deal 70% dmg, shatters deal 30%. Increasing shatter damage by 20% increases overall damage by 0,3x0,2=0,06=6%reaper deals 40% dmg out of shround, 60% in shround. increasing its shroud damge by 25% increases its overall damage by 0,6x0,25=0,15=15%.thats much more impactfull.

[ZDragon.3046]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@ZDragon.3046

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vicious_Lacerations

9% becouse its on crits OR with a sword, meaning its perma up. perma 9% bonus vs 5% if you are winning.Because you link me to pages where you dont read things ill highlight the notes for you on Vicious Lacerations

NotesSince this trait applies one stack per hit, it is possible to apply up to 3 stacks with one cleaving skill.The attacks do not need to be made with a sword, you only have to be wielding one.

In other words if you are not holding a sword you dont get the stacks. What this is saying is that you can activate this trait with mace attacks if a sword is in you off hand but you still need "a sword" and you still need to land "critical hits" with attacks while that sword is in your hand. Any time a rev swaps to staff the stacks will not be gained.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Death_Perception

reaper shround is Bigger part of necro damage then shatters to mesmer, thats a fact.At the same note mesmer is much better in damage at base without using shatters than necro will be without using its shroud :) this kind of balances itself out.while having that in mind, 10-20% damage boost will provide less damage, then 33% crit combined with 300 ferocity will, its on the same tier so it should provide sameish value, not triple or more.

Side note, raw percent boost are always better than flat stat boost. This is obvious and basic to understand if you know how multiplication works.Percent boost effects both crits and non crits and in some cases even conditions where as a flat stat boost like ferocity only applies to critical hits.NOT TO MENTION this trait only applies while in shroud outside of shroud it does nothing.

Becouse of traits like these mesmers are forced to go 1shot builds or condi monkey stuff, you CANT make a bruiser, becouse damage modifiers are unreliable, the only way you can make use of vulnerability % dmg trait is when you stack the kitten out of it and burst before its cleansed, only way you make use of anguish is to 1shot bcouse it sucks for sustain, only way you make use of egoism is to 1shot becouse then you are above HP, the only ways to make use of those traits so people use them to 1shot.

Or you cant make a busier because mesmer is not designed to be a bruiser?

then you have

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fencer%27s_Finesse

vs

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fencer%27s_Finesse

this is just of the top of my head, and its back to back with those traits 150 stats vs 240 stats, on top of power > ferocity for damage on top of this "staff" trait actually giving 120 power while out of it, more reliable AND stronger.???

So mesmer is not supposed to be a bruiser, instead its supposed to be a 1shot mashine or condi monkey ( both whined on ofc )

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Vicious_Lacerations

READ and comprehend, I dont think you realize what OR means.1(Gain a stack of vicious lacerations on critical strikes) or 2(attacks while wielding a sword)1 gain stack on crit.2 gain stack while wielding a sword.And please dont argue about it, I actually went and made revenant just to test it.Staff crit strikes generated 3% dmg bonus, crit strikes on sword/sword generated 2 stacks.this is actually a bug. Crit on sword should generate 1 stack, doesnt matter in the grand scheme of things becouse this bonus is permanently up.

Shroud skills.If you actually knew what you are talking about, and took your time to crunch the numbers, you would know how much of a damage increase crit chance can be.demolisher reaper will have wheat, 56% crit? that goes to 86% in shroud, combined with 300 fero ( 20% crit damage ), go and calculated the damage difference on AVERAGE. Will be in about 25% damage boost in shroud.so its MORE damage, MORE reliable and EASIER to proc, while increasing bigger part of the damage.

example.mesmer skills deal 70% dmg, shatters deal 30%. Increasing shatter damage by 20% increases overall damage by 0,3x0,2=0,06=6%reaper deals 40% dmg out of shround, 60% in shround. increasing its shroud damge by 25% increases its overall damage by 0,6x0,25=0,15=15%.thats much more impactfull.

ok my browser crashed and i lost my post not retyping my whole statement so here is the TLDR version.

1:There is no reason to complain about Vicious lacerations as if mesmer does not have its own perma effect buffs because they do. You just made a bad comparison in your initial post much like you have done for almost every other trait. Dont for get about Compounding Power and Fencer's_Finesse. Done here. Moving on past this im not going back to it These are the proper traits you should have compared to Vicious lacerations if any.2:Im not sure what numbers you are crunching but im glad you are not on the balance team.Where are you getting the numbers with the idea that 70% of mesmers damage comes from weapon skills and 30% comes from shatters similarly how do you come to the conclusion that necromancers do 40% of their damage with weapons and 60% of the damage with shroud. How do you form these numbers and can be sure that this is always the case in every combat situation.

Are we going to ignore the fact that you correctly identified the fact that the ferocity bonus from DP is equal to about 20% critical damage (which only applies to critical hits) and some how you managed to ruin this fact with the assumption that some how 20% critical damage equates to a 25% damage increase overall so you just came up with a number off the top of your head here some how that sounds good.

You then multiplied the percentage number you came up with some how for the f skills and applied the fixed 20% to shatters skills and this 25% overall (which im still not sure how you came up with from a trait that is literally applied to critical damage only) to those previous numbers and this is your reasoning as to why one trait is more impactful than the other????

You literally wrote text that looks like it means something but really most of this means nothing you only managed to correctly translate 1 thing which is the bonus ferocity bonus to critical damage which is critical damage only.

If you were a mesmer in real life you would fool anyone who reads those numbers without thinking twice.3:What this all comes down to is that your comparisons are bad. IF you compare traits that are not similar in terms of mechanics and numerical value then of course things are going to look funky between them. Compare flat stat bonus traits to flat stat bonus traits and compare direct % traits to direct % traits you will find that while they have different triggers most of them are similar. But if you stare going and crossing things that are not comparable to one another then you will find that they are not equal.

Lets also disregard play styles while we are at it. Im not all for nerfing something just for the sake of nerfing it nor am i for buffing things for no reason but you are very illogical on a level that i just cannot continue to converse with you.