Potential Future Balance Changes - WvW

[Nimon.7840]

@"scerevisiae.1972" said:

unplayablesorry i meant "playable in zerg". sometimes, you actually do want to play your favourite class in the zerg, with your friends.

I think

every

class should have at least 1 spec that is zerg-friendly.

Sorry. But there isn't a single class, that is bad for a Zerg. Yes maybe you don't get into the main zerggroup because it's full with the strong teamfight classes, but you can still be very useful on any other class.

Desired classes in zergs:

• guard
• necro
• rev
• engi
• ele
• warrior

Now there's 3 left:

• mesmer (still brings portals, pulls, cc and invis to the Zerg

The other two aren't seen in zergs, but it's pretty good to have them around your Zerg.

• ranger: can easily oneshot people and what's better than not having to deal with the enemies "not Zerg classes"?
• thief: still insanely good, can oneshot entire backline groups of enemy zergs and they get even more effective if they are in a Zerg group and get buffs from there, but that's what a lot of people don't want to recognize

[Aeolus.3615]

Imo rangers need to play better as a team to spike targets down.... that’s the only issue.

Part of the issue is they are specials flowers.... and want to be part of the blob stack and spam “randomly” gameplay....

There’s a lot of awfull players playing rangers....reason elites need to be so strong so those players won’t fail lol...

@scerevisiae.1972 every class is Zerg friendly.

Altough there’s the issue of carry with aoe spam reason it invalidates some builds and weapons.

It’s a game design and balance issue.

[Magnuzone.8395]

Without taking side for or against anything, small but frequent tweaks is the way to go here. It's the only way to achieve any form of balance.

[Vegeta.2563]

So a patch is coming up on Dec 3rd. Might be helpful to see an update on how the balance update part is coming so we can give our feedback before the release.

Like how Sand Savant is going to be changed. If it's going to remain with the 100% recharge rate increase for only 120 radius increase.. or if the trait is going to be completely redone.. things like this we need to know.

[miguelsil.6324]

Hopefully some decent changes to stealth mechanics.

[Jeydra.4386]

Rebalance tactics maybe? Right now some tactics (e.g. Speedy Dolyaks) are simply way more effective than others (e.g. Armored Dolyaks).

If rebalancing tactics is too hard, make it so that we get to choose which tactic we want when we use a Skirmish chest.

[cobbah.3102]

@miguelsil.6324 said:Hopefully some decent changes to stealth mechanics.

Total deletion of stealth ftw

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@cobbah.3102 said:

@miguelsil.6324 said:Hopefully some decent changes to stealth mechanics.

Total deletion of stealth ftw

Not gonna hapoen- keep dreaming tho :)Stealth is fine for the most part other than it was given to too many classes.

[Aeolus.3615]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@cobbah.3102 said:

@miguelsil.6324 said:Hopefully some decent changes to stealth mechanics.

Total deletion of stealth ftw

Not gonna hapoen- keep dreaming tho :)Stealth is fine for the most part other than it was given to too many classes.

Like many other things that were given.

[Sobx.1758]

@miguelsil.6324 said:Hopefully some decent changes to stealth mechanics.

Speaking of which -it's been a month since you've made a certain promise :p

[Voltekka.2375]

@miguelsil.6324 said:Hopefully some decent changes to stealth mechanics.

I wish. We all wish. But dont get your hopes high.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Voltekka.2375 said:

@miguelsil.6324 said:Hopefully some decent changes to stealth mechanics.

I wish. We all wish. But dont get your hopes high.

We all definitely don't wish :) unless ur talking about removing the silly tower and guard stealth restriction:) I wish for that personally

[miguelsil.6324]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:

@miguelsil.6324 said:Hopefully some decent changes to stealth mechanics.

I wish. We all wish. But dont get your hopes high.

We all definitely don't wish :) unless ur talking about removing the silly tower and guard stealth restriction:) I wish for that personally

Ofc people using and abusing it do not wish, god forbid you would have to rely on something else that is harder to play.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@miguelsil.6324 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:

@miguelsil.6324 said:Hopefully some decent changes to stealth mechanics.

I wish. We all wish. But dont get your hopes high.

We all definitely don't wish :) unless ur talking about removing the silly tower and guard stealth restriction:) I wish for that personally

Ofc people using and abusing it do not wish, god forbid you would have to rely on something else that is harder to play.

Lol use and abuse what? Stealth on a class balanced around it? I guess its better to 100-0 with one rapid fire and few autos from slb at 1800+ range, use 4 or 5 hard cc's and 3 or 4 shot any class class on warrior, burn someone down in seconds using weaver while having great protection,healing and evades, of use scourge and spam circles everywhere and get far more free bags in a zerg than any stealth player, us fb and do great dps and virtually make urself invincible along with ur group, be a holo and just be great at everything lol. Stealth exist in every mmo and has a right to be in the game as do other archetype mechanics. Upkeep on stealth and having to hug someone's back that's moving randomly while trying to connect a Male hit that son a cd takes more effort than 75% of the bursts on other classes, does same or less damage and is done on a class that can be 3 shot or less by any other class at all times :)Stealth annoys u just as it's intended but is far from OP or broken these days especially in gw2 considering the games full of powercreep through out most its classes.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

@miguelsil.6324 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Mikali.9651 said:

@miguelsil.6324 said:WARRIOR is not ok, 2 invuln stances on a class that on full zerker has insane survival and hard to burst or land hit due to low abilities that provide stability evades (gs3 cd is too low) and can perma stun a person ( bull charge, shield 4 and elite ) also having a heall tick that does not need healling power to do those ticks...

For warrior to have that survival they should be on different armour stats and hard CC needs an ICD of at least 1s after at the end of the said hard CC, ether by being stunbreak or by simply waiting for the effect to end .

Then it would be on pair with other classes when using zerk gear.

Wait, a Warrior actually managed to stun you with Shield Bash and Bull's Charge? What? In a chain? And does it regularly? I find that hard to believe.

Yeah these are the players screaming about warriors sustain and dps lol poster above says warrior out dps herald or rev.. ok sure it does. The complain about 2 invulnerability stances but guards/fb are ok? Mirages with invulnerability, blocks, teleports etc etc are fine. I could go on but the majority of the community these days seem like new players calling any class they have trouble with OP, its obvious in their posts. That be my guess how he's getting continually stunned by shield bash and rampage, gotta be new lolOn top the gw2 forum community are sheep no one was talking about warrior except the tactics trait line changes cuz it was all thief and holo but a post or two from a couple clueless players stating warriors OP than anytime some one dies to one oh oh get on the forums to join the warrior OP band waggon and now its gonna be every third post u see.Welcome to gw2 forums :)

Who said anything about firebrand and mesmers being ok? everything you said is true, those invulns and teleports and boon spam should all be nerfed to the ground aswell.

Doesnt mean that the 2 invul stances from warrior are ok and that the class on fullzerker can facetank all other classes and have that survival plus the capacity to have 3 stuns available at the same time.

Nerf FB and Mirages to the ground and accept that those things on warrior need tuning down also.

Full zerker cant face tank all other classes, unless you're standing still and not kiting while them stances are up. Full zerker warrior has what, 300 toughness more than light?

[subversiontwo.7501]

@"Tao.5096" said:"You still have Reaper" - So you are saying that it's okay because Necromancer has only one viable build which is only for small scale fights. Meanwhile every other class has around 2-3 or more viable builds for every gameplay in WvW.I don't know you so I'm not making any assertations and consider this a comment in general and not directed at you.

The former state of Scourges in WvW has funneled alot of new players towards that class because it was grossly overpowered, it did things it never was supposed to do (it was desgined to be a support class, not a superior well bomber) and it provided easy bags. New or inexperienced players are likely to draw conclusions that something is not viable simply because some broken things are adressed.

The reality is that Scourges will remain viable at what they were supposed to be doing. That goes for small scale as well as large scale. It was not meant to be a double-shade condi-burster at small scale either. I'm not saying it was the best roaming class by any stretch when you could double-shade burst with it but it was overperforming at something it wasn't supposed to excel at. It still has a place as a supportive condi hybrid even with double shade burst gone.

Similarily, if we look at what is best rather than what fits a specific theme, it's not like other classes are faring better. Necro overall remains a useful and potent class in WvW and in many ways remain superior to most other classes. Saying that every other class is more viable after the nerfs is outright wrong. Saying that every other class has more viable builds is also wrong whether you regard viable as something thematic that can be played or something that is a sidegrade to a preferred build. For most classes their PoF spec still outperform their other specs even if there are other-spec sidegrades.

Are there some classes that now fare better than Necros? Sure, they may not be #1 anymore and there may now be other classes that have a little too much wind in their sails (for example, in an attempt to make melee more lucrative, Warriors were perhaps not the class most in need of improvement and Breakers did well enough without the addition of Shoutbreakers) however, there are still several classes that are arguably far worse off than Necro, having recieved nerfs themselves, having fallen out of meta (or out of immidiate meta) or in general being far less prevalent on the maps.

On Rangers for example almost every way to play is best played as Soulbeast, their HoT spec is in far more dire straits than Reaper and their PoF spec is not more lucrative than post-nerf Scourge with all scales taken into account. Engineers were quite severely nerfed after they initially had been buffed and the vision for what they are supposed to be has become far less clear cut and logical than whatever direction has been laid out for Necros.

All things considered, Necros are shaping up to perform more akin to how I presume they were supposed to play now with core as a well bomber, Reaper as the melee specialist and Scourge as a support specialist with some hybrid sidegrading to certain aspects of the other two specs. There is however a huge spread among their subset of players with a great majority of inexperienced players and a comparatively small amount of experienced players who can hold a sober discussion about the class. The vast majority of players who would come to discuss the state of the core Necro for example is very unlikely to have many hours clocked on core Necro. There could be merit to a discussion about the state of core Necro but a constructive discussion is unlike to take place in a sea of nabs who picked the class for easy bags from afar, thanks to a server recommendation where they got carried by FB's or whatever else.

Perhaps you are an ark of experience floating atop of that sea but the sobriety of your arguments will determine that.

[Sobx.1758]

@miguelsil.6324 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:

@miguelsil.6324 said:Hopefully some decent changes to stealth mechanics.

I wish. We all wish. But dont get your hopes high.

We all definitely don't wish :) unless ur talking about removing the silly tower and guard stealth restriction:) I wish for that personally

Ofc people using and abusing it do not wish, god forbid you would have to rely on something else that is harder to play.

Ok, so you already forgot your claim that "you've played thief in wvw but it was too easy and too boring so you stopped", so instead of that now you play one-shot guardian or w/e, which you claim is just to "show how unbalanced it is" and yet you never actually complain about it here. Then you offer to make an uncut video of thief's opness, but after that you say "you need a moment to check what to use on it" (I'm still wondering how you don't know what to use on a class that you "already played and found too easy and boring", so feel free to clear that up :D ).

Now -a month later- there's still nothing from you on that front and you post a necro vid in which you jump inbetween 5 enemies and... that's fine. You still come and complain about the stealth being op. :astonished: Your main argument seems to be based on the fact that you want/like to play necro that can aoe like crazy, but you can get 1v1ed by a thief and you don't like that fact. Which by far is not a valid argument to have a class nerfed.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@miguelsil.6324 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Voltekka.2375 said:

@miguelsil.6324 said:Hopefully some decent changes to stealth mechanics.

I wish. We all wish. But dont get your hopes high.

We all definitely don't wish :) unless ur talking about removing the silly tower and guard stealth restriction:) I wish for that personally

Ofc people using and abusing it do not wish, god forbid you would have to rely on something else that is harder to play.

Ok, so you already forgot your claim that "you've played thief in wvw but it was too easy and too boring so you stopped", so instead of that now you play one-shot guardian or w/e, which

you claim

is just to "show how unbalanced it is" and yet you never actually complain about it here. Then you offer to make an uncut video of thief's opness, but after that you say "you need a moment to check what to use on it" (I'm still wondering how you don't know what to use on a class that you "already played and found too easy and boring", so feel free to clear that up :D ).

Now -a month later- there's still nothing from you on that front and you post a necro vid in which you jump inbetween 5 enemies and... that's fine. You still come and complaing about the stealth being op. :astonished: Your main argument seems to be based on the fact that you want/like to play necro that can aoe like crazy, but you can get 1v1ed by a thief and you don't like that fact. Which by far is not a valid argument to have a class nerfed.

Well said sir

[Tao.5096]

@"subversiontwo.7501" said:I don't know you so I'm not making any assertations and consider this a comment in general and not directed at you.

The former state of Scourges in WvW has funneled alot of new players towards that class because it was grossly overpowered, it did things it never was supposed to do (it was desgined to be a support class, not a superior well bomber) and it provided easy bags. New or inexperienced players are likely to draw conclusions that something is not viable simply because some broken things are adressed.

Well, "everyone" says it's OP and Easy - so newbies are going to roll it.Simple as that - in every single game.

And then they don't know what to do and are farmed...

The reality is that Scourges will remain viable at what they were supposed to be doing. That goes for small scale as well as large scale. It was not meant to be a double-shade condi-burster at small scale either. I'm not saying it was the best roaming class by any stretch when you could double-shade burst with it but it was overperforming at something it wasn't supposed to excel at. It still has a place as a supportive condi hybrid even with double shade burst gone.

Reaper in HoT was viable for both Power and Condition spec.Today it's viable only for Power spec - Condition is too slow and cleanse is too high.

Core Necro was always around and in many cases it could be sturdy, but never outperformed Reaper or Scourge.Scourge on the other hand, was the only Condition spec which was viable in all game modes.

Now, Necormancer has no condition spec which is viable - and this Vanilla Necro one....please just no.Boon application hasn't been toned down and even with high boon removal it wasn't even close to stopping other classes from applying new boons and/or removing those conditions.

There was a problem in zerg vs zerg - sure, I get it.But why are we even trying to say so hard that it's so fine to destroy the spec in every single other game scenario, just so this one single scenario, i.e. zerg vs zerg won't complain any longer about this specific spec?

And how did it fix the issue?It brought back Bubble Warriors and made them viable again - and again, there are tons of complains because it doesn't work at all.It didn't fix the boon spam issue (which is a core problem of both PvP and WvW).It hasn't brought back EotM for simple zerg vs doors (which is what is now).

The only thing that it did, is simply made people go away, because people realize that this isn't a fix, it's just a random smash and kill with crossed fingers that it'll work.

I personally am already annoyed by Anet creating Metas - since they started it never worked.

Power Shiro Revenant is still as OP as when it was released.Did it change spec or build wise? No.It's high damage, high sustain, high mobility spec.I'm bad at this class, sure I can admit it, but making 25 stacks of might and hit like a truck with sword + quickness in less than 5 seconds - I do it, and I can't even laugh at it.

Condi Mesmer was always a big thorn in WvW small scale and roaming. It was always a great card in PvP.And Mirage simply boosts them.They nerfed CI and what about it?It didn't change the amount of visual noise it does create.It didn't change the problem with retargetting it after you lose it - heck, it even got additional target breakers.It didn't interupt their rotation that the window to catch them is still small in between their condi spam bursts and their damage negation.

And there are more and more and more other specs that people complain about, but they are not touched, because well, why would they?Better nerf the spec that actually is quite balanced and spanks those specs that people complain about and which are cheesy - but meanwhile doing it, everyone just look at strong points, instead of it's weaknesses.

Similarily, if we look at what is best rather than what fits a specific theme, it's not like other classes are faring better. Necro overall remains a useful and potent class in WvW and in many ways remain superior to most other classes. Saying that every other class is more viable after the nerfs is outright wrong. Saying that every other class has more viable builds is also wrong whether you regard viable as something thematic that can be played or something that is a sidegrade to a preferred build. For most classes their PoF spec still outperform their other specs even if there are other-spec sidegrades.

No.The class that has zero mobility, relies on it's own sustain i.e. barrier, HP pool, armor. Is weak against fast paced classes, is heavily vulnerable to CCs and range - had it's weapon and offensive ability nerfed to the ground.

I mean, it's not even funny at this point.

Are there some classes that now fare better than Necros? Sure, they may not be #1 anymore and there may now be other classes that have a little too much wind in their sails (for example, in an attempt to make melee more lucrative, Warriors were perhaps not the class most in need of improvement and Breakers did well enough without the addition of Shoutbreakers) however, there are still several classes that are arguably far worse off than Necro, having recieved nerfs themselves, having fallen out of meta (or out of immidiate meta) or in general being far less prevalent on the maps.

Really, who cares about #1 Class NA/EU?No one, who has no ego problems.

What the playerbase always did ask for is a diversity in specs which would be balanced i.e. Power Reaper = Condi Scourge, Condi Mesmer = Power Shatter, etc.

On Rangers for example almost every way to play is best played as Soulbeast, their HoT spec is in far more dire straits than Reaper and their PoF spec is not more lucrative than post-nerf Scourge with all scales taken into account. Engineers were quite severely nerfed after they initially had been buffed and the vision for what they are supposed to be has become far less clear cut and logical than whatever direction has been laid out for Necros.

Sure, Soulbeast has it.But let's be honest, Soulbeast has couple of variants that include different weapon, tactic, playstyle sets.So, you can see that overall, Ranger for example has more viable and diverse specs than Necromancer does.And this applies to pretty much all other classes as well.

All things considered, Necros are shaping up to perform more akin to how I presume they were supposed to play now with core as a well bomber, Reaper as the melee specialist and Scourge as a support specialist with some hybrid sidegrading to certain aspects of the other two specs. There is however a huge spread among their subset of players with a great majority of inexperienced players and a comparatively small amount of experienced players who can hold a sober discussion about the class. The vast majority of players who would come to discuss the state of the core Necro for example is very unlikely to have many hours clocked on core Necro. There could be merit to a discussion about the state of core Necro but a constructive discussion is unlike to take place in a sea of nabs who picked the class for easy bags from afar, thanks to a server recommendation where they got carried by FB's or whatever else.

I strongly disagree.Every spec, as in Core, Reaper, Scourge, should have variants in all three areas - support, power and condition.That of course applies to every single class in the game.

Perhaps you are an ark of experience floating atop of that sea but the sobriety of your arguments will determine that.

Thanks

[miguelsil.6324]

Ofc people using and abusing it do not wish, god forbid you would have to rely on something else that is harder to play.

Ok, so you already forgot your claim that "you've played thief in wvw but it was too easy and too boring so you stopped", so instead of that now you play one-shot guardian or w/e, which

you claim

is just to "show how unbalanced it is" and yet you never actually complain about it here. Then you offer to make an uncut video of thief's opness, but after that you say "you need a moment to check what to use on it" (I'm still wondering how you don't know what to use on a class that you "already played and found too easy and boring", so feel free to clear that up :D ).

Now -a month later- there's still nothing from you on that front and you post a necro vid in which you jump inbetween 5 enemies and... that's fine. You still come and complain about the stealth being op. :astonished: Your main argument seems to be based on the fact that you want/like to play necro that can aoe like crazy, but you can get 1v1ed by a thief and you don't like that fact. Which by far is not a valid argument to have a class nerfed.

As I have a real life and not so much time to play I choose to use what little time i had to play the classes I like and try new builds instead of proving a point to someone.

I found it unnecessary as even guild members of mine and other thief players I know agree that the class has some of the cheesiest builds available for wvw with too much reward and little counters.

I just provide my feedback on the matter supporting many other players that agree stealth needs to be looked at.

I will continue to do so on my end and players that use stealth characters will continue to defend the poor mechanics (in this game) too afraid that they have to change their playstyle for a more healthy game mode.

[subversiontwo.7501]

@Tao.5096 said:

Perhaps you are an ark of experience floating atop of that sea but the sobriety of your arguments will determine that.

ThanksSo, that was preconditioned and making sober arguments, let's look at your arguments.

Really, who cares about #1 Class NA/EU?No one, who has no ego problems.It didn't fix the boon spam issue (which is a core problem of both PvP and WvW).It hasn't brought back EotM for simple zerg vs doors (which is what is now).Power Shiro Revenant is still as OP as when it was released.It brought back Bubble Warriors and made them viable againI personally am already annoyed by Anet creating Metas - since they started it never worked.It didn't change the amount of visual noise it does create.And there are more and more and more other specs that people complain about, but they are not touched, because well, why would they?Better nerf the spec that actually is quite balanced and spanks those specs that people complain about and which are cheesyBoon application hasn't been toned down and even with high boon removal it wasn't even close to stopping other classes from applying new boons and/or removing those conditions.So, you can see that overall, Ranger for example has more viable and diverse specs than Necromancer does.And this applies to pretty much all other classes as well.What the playerbase always did ask for is a diversity in specs which would be balanced i.e. Power Reaper = Condi Scourge, Condi Mesmer = Power Shatter, etc.Every spec, as in Core, Reaper, Scourge, should have variants in all three areas - support, power and condition.Condi Mesmer was always a big thorn in WvW small scale and roaming. It was always a great card in PvP.They nerfed CI and what about it?That of course applies to every single class in the game.All of this is just you ranting about everything and nothing all at once. It's just incoherent rambling, it's you spurting out your feelings while mostly being completely irrelevant to the discussion, what I said or what is true. So I guess you don't have much to say thanks for there.

• Warrios never ceased being viable
• Meta? There have always been some comps that are safe and easy to compose, it's no recent doing or of Anet
• Other specs are OP? Sure, there are some, there are always going to be some under review, that's not a case for making more specs OP
• The balanced spec that spanks everything and everything else is cheesy? Yeah, that sounds balanced
• Other classes not being touched? Other classes are being touched all the time
• You do realize that boons being too frequent does not necessarily make Necros less valuable, right? 0% boons and 100% conditions is not a norm
• You do realize that boon output nerfs on things like Chrono (along with the CI nerf) has pushed it out of play at various scales, right?

Let's look at the few things that had some substance relevant to the changes to Necro:

Reaper in HoT was viable for both Power and Condition spec.Today it's viable only for Power spec - Condition is too slow and cleanse is too high.Now, Necormancer has no condition spec which is viable - and this Vanilla Necro one....please just no.This is just untrue. There is plenty of recent evidence from good Necro players who are making use of various condition- and hybrid builds at all scales from largely unorganized to parties to squads.

The class that has zero mobility, relies on it's own sustain i.e. barrier, HP pool, armor. Is weak against fast paced classes, is heavily vulnerable to CCs and range - had it's weapon and offensive ability nerfed to the ground.What weapons have been nerfed to the ground? The class still has a smattering of very good weapons. It is still the premier reticle AoE class, it is still the premier ranged ripper and those are also the reasons why it isn't gifted with the best mobility. The class is built around countering mobility in various ways from rips to conditions/cc to reach on its weapons to things like pulls and fears on high-distance abilities. The comments only gives the impression that you don't understand the class or how to play it because those things are pretty basic and have been a core aspect of the class since release.

I'm bad at this class, sure I can admit itFine, if you say so, but are you then not able to make the connection that maybe you don't know enough about it to have a solid oppinion on the matter and realize that what you are complaining about is largely unsubstantial? It's how you feel it is not the fact of the matter.

[Voltekka.2375]

@subversiontwo.7501 said:

@Tao.5096 said:

Perhaps you are an ark of experience floating atop of that sea but the sobriety of your arguments will determine that.

ThanksSo, that was preconditioned and making sober arguments, let's look at your arguments.

Really, who cares about #1 Class NA/EU?No one, who has no ego problems.It didn't fix the boon spam issue (which is a core problem of both PvP and WvW).It hasn't brought back EotM for simple zerg vs doors (which is what is now).Power Shiro Revenant is still as OP as when it was released.It brought back Bubble Warriors and made them viable againI personally am already annoyed by Anet creating Metas - since they started it never worked.It didn't change the amount of visual noise it does create.And there are more and more and more other specs that people complain about, but they are not touched, because well, why would they?Better nerf the spec that actually is quite balanced and spanks those specs that people complain about and which are cheesyBoon application hasn't been toned down and even with high boon removal it wasn't even close to stopping other classes from applying new boons and/or removing those conditions.So, you can see that overall, Ranger for example has more viable and diverse specs than Necromancer does.And this applies to pretty much all other classes as well.What the playerbase always did ask for is a diversity in specs which would be balanced i.e. Power Reaper = Condi Scourge, Condi Mesmer = Power Shatter, etc.Every spec, as in Core, Reaper, Scourge, should have variants in all three areas - support, power and condition.Condi Mesmer was always a big thorn in WvW small scale and roaming. It was always a great card in PvP.They nerfed CI and what about it?That of course applies to every single class in the game.All of this is just you ranting about everything and nothing all at once. It's just incoherent rambling, it's you spurting out your feelings while mostly being completely irrelevant to the discussion, what I said or what is true. So I guess you don't have much to say thanks for there.

• Warrios never ceased being viable
• Meta? There have always been some comps that are safe and easy to compose, it's no recent doing or of Anet
• Other specs are OP? Sure, there are some, there are always going to be some under review, that's not a case for making more specs OP
• The balanced spec that spanks everything and everything else is cheesy? Yeah, that sounds balanced
• Other classes not being touched? Other classes are being touched all the time
• You do realize that boons being too frequent does not necessarily make Necros less valuable, right? 0% boons and 100% conditions is not a norm
• You do realize that boon output nerfs on things like Chrono (along with the CI nerf) has pushed it out of play at various scales, right?

Let's look at the few things that had some substance relevant to the changes to Necro:

Reaper in HoT was viable for both Power and Condition spec.Today it's viable only for Power spec - Condition is too slow and cleanse is too high.Now, Necormancer has no condition spec which is viable - and this Vanilla Necro one....please just no.This is just untrue. There is plenty of recent evidence from good Necro players who are making use of various condition- and hybrid builds at all scales from largely unorganized to parties to squads.

The class that has zero mobility, relies on it's own sustain i.e. barrier, HP pool, armor. Is weak against fast paced classes, is heavily vulnerable to CCs and range - had it's weapon and offensive ability nerfed to the ground.What weapons have been nerfed to the ground? The class still has a smattering of very good weapons. It is still the premier reticle AoE class, it is still the premier ranged ripper and those are also the reasons why it isn't gifted with the best mobility. The class is built around countering mobility in various ways from rips to conditions/cc to reach on its weapons to things like pulls and fears on high-distance abilities. The comments only gives the impression that you don't understand the class or how to play it because those things are pretty basic and have been a core aspect of the class since release.

I'm bad at this class, sure I can admit itFine, if you say so, but are you then not able to make the connection that maybe you don't know enough about it to have a solid oppinion on the matter and realize that what you are complaining about is largely unsubstantial? It's how you feel it is not the fact of the matter.

Yes, the amount of roaming reapers we see is the same as thieves, mirages, warriors, holos, soulbeasts. The more you know! Or maybe it isnt and either players are downright bad at reaper (possibility one) or reaper is worse compared to the aforementioned roaming classes on equally skilled players (possibility 2). Plus, that condescending tone of yours hardly helps any arguments.

[Tao.5096]

@"subversiontwo.7501" said:So, that was preconditioned and making sober arguments, let's look at your arguments.

Okay? xD

All of this is just you ranting about everything and nothing all at once. It's just incoherent rambling, it's you spurting out your feelings while mostly being completely irrelevant to the discussion, what I said or what is true. So I guess you don't have much to say thanks for there.

It may sound like a rant, but why should I care about constructive feedback, when it just doesn't work and has no impact anyway?I mean, I play this game since the start and I saw all the changes across all game modes and classes, and I did participate in giving a feedback to devs on the forum.And that was not only me - many people did that.But the balance team, or however we call it, never have taken into account the arguments, that if they will do this or that, it will cause such a problem.They did it eventually, and it did cause problems as they were simply mentioned and pointed out.

Should I stay polite and constructive all the time?For what?For apperances?Please...

• Warrios never ceased being viable

I never said Warriors were not viable. I have no idea where did you pull it out from.

• Meta? There have always been some comps that are safe and easy to compose, it's no recent doing or of Anet

The issue with Meta being done by Anet is because they focus on particular spec instead of taking into account the overall impact of changes across entire class.This has started when Anet wanted GW2 to be eSport wannabe, and it lasts till now, because it's easy and cheap, but at the same time it's killing diversity.

If we look back couple of years ago, and we say that Meta score 5/5 and Non-meta viable build was 3.5-4/5, then today, as Meta score is 5/5, then non-meta viable build is 2/5 or lower.

• Other specs are OP? Sure, there are some, there are always going to be some under review, that's not a case for making more specs OP
• The balanced spec that spanks everything and everything else is cheesy? Yeah, that sounds balanced

I guess you completely misunderstood what I wrote, but okay.

• Other classes not being touched? Other classes are being touched all the time

And are there any visible changes that play out?Perhaps to few classes like ranger? But most are just quick fix this and that, patch together.

• You do realize that boons being too frequent does not necessarily make Necros less valuable, right? 0% boons and 100% conditions is not a norm

Again, you missed the point...

• You do realize that boon output nerfs on things like Chrono (along with the CI nerf) has pushed it out of play at various scales, right?

Or because nerf to it's Distortion made it no longer viable.

Let's look at the few things that had some substance relevant to the changes to Necro:This is just untrue. There is plenty of recent evidence from good Necro players who are making use of various condition- and hybrid builds at all scales from largely unorganized to parties to squads.

If you say so.

What weapons have been nerfed to the ground? The class still has a smattering of very good weapons. It is still the premier reticle AoE class, it is still the premier ranged ripper and those are also the reasons why it isn't gifted with the best mobility.

Yes, they have nerfed scepter once again and again and again, I didn't say anything that lack of mobility is an issue.

The class is built around countering mobility in various ways from rips to conditions/cc to reach on its weapons to things like pulls and fears on high-distance abilities.

Mobility countering you say?Are we talking about those few Cripple conditions it can throw?

Does it stop classes that have passives that greatly reduce mobility conditions?Does it stop classes that have mobility skills such as teleports, rushes that are not affected by those conditions?Does it stop the current high condition cleanse?

No.So what are you talking about?

And pulls...man you sure draw "the best cards".

The comments only gives the impression that you don't understand the class or how to play it because those things are pretty basic and have been a core aspect of the class since release.

I'll be honest with you now.

You know zero, but zero about what is happening in WvW:

• Big Scale
• Small Scale
• Roaming

You know zero and zero about what is in PvP either.

My post was about the entire problem across WvW but with Necromancer class as an example, because it got hammered hard last time, and Opening Post says that it wants to hammer it more.

And you still have missed the core problem and core issue I was speaking about.Meanwhile, saying things I didn't say at all, like with warrior thing, and other stuff.

But it's fine.You like stuff on paper, I like stuff in the game.

I'm bad at this class, sure I can admit itFine, if you say so, but are you then not able to make the connection that maybe you don't know enough about it to have a solid oppinion on the matter and realize that what you are complaining about is largely unsubstantial? It's how you feel it is not the fact of the matter.

Because maybe I know how this class work. I'm bad at it, because I don't like it and because of that I can't do 100% of what it can.That's why there are people who are good at this class, and thanks to them, with whom I have fun, etc. I can have a solid opinion on the matter which they also acknowledge.

And more than complain, I pointed out, the issue is damage output due to max might which can be achieved easily and Impossible Odds which make this issue even bigger.

[subversiontwo.7501]

@Voltekka.2375 said:Yes, the amount of roaming reapers we see is the same as thieves, mirages, warriors, holos, soulbeasts. The more you know! Or maybe it isnt and either players are downright bad at reaper (possibility one) or reaper is worse compared to the aforementioned roaming classes on equally skilled players (possibility 2). Plus, that condescending tone of yours hardly helps any arguments.My first post was as cautiously and nicely worded as can be asked for, keeping an open mind and trying to explain. However, that was only met by by incoherent crying so it gets the response it deserves. The same goes for your post laced with sarcasm that later complains about my tone. It deserves little so it gets little. Don't let me interrupt you boys' circlewhack of pouring your feelings out. You can tell me when you are open to discussing balance instead.

[Sobx.1758]

@"miguelsil.6324" said:

Ofc people using and abusing it do not wish, god forbid you would have to rely on something else that is harder to play.

Ok, so you already forgot your claim that "you've played thief in wvw but it was too easy and too boring so you stopped", so instead of that now you play one-shot guardian or w/e, which

you claim

is just to "show how unbalanced it is" and yet you never actually complain about it here. Then you offer to make an uncut video of thief's opness, but after that you say "you need a moment to check what to use on it" (I'm still wondering how you don't know what to use on a class that you "already played and found too easy and boring", so feel free to clear that up :D ).

Now -a month later- there's still nothing from you on that front and you post a necro vid in which you jump inbetween 5 enemies and... that's fine. You still come and complain about the stealth being op. :astonished: Your main argument seems to be based on the fact that you want/like to play necro that can aoe like crazy, but you can get 1v1ed by a thief and you don't like that fact. Which by far is not a valid argument to have a class nerfed.

As I have a real life and not so much time to play I choose to use what little time i had to play the classes I like and try new builds instead of proving a point to someone.

That's great. But what's not great is you trying to build up credibility of what you say by claiming you've played something to the point of "getting bored of it because it was too easy", when in reality you didn't even touch it (as shown by your admitted lack of knowledge about how to even gear the class/build in the first place). You're free to have your opinion, but I think that if you were actually sure about your claims you wouldn't need to lie about it. And yet here we are.