Ovark.2514 Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 Holo's currently have 2 trade-offs technically: They lose the toolbelt skills based on their elite, and they can overheat if they mismanage their photon forge. The first isn't really a trade-off since photon forge is stronger than any toolbelt skill will ever be. The second never happens in competitive play unless the player is a noob. So My suggestion is this: Holos now gain 1% heat when struck while in photon forge. This doesn't add a trade-off. Instead, it makes the one they have relevant even at high level play. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virdo.1540 Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 @Ovark.2514 said:Holo's currently have 2 trade-offs technically: They lose the toolbelt skills based on their elite, and they can overheat if they mismanage their photon forge. The first isn't really a trade-off since photon forge is stronger than any toolbelt skill will ever be. The second never happens in competitive play unless the player is a noob. So My suggestion is this: Holos now gain 1% heat when struck while in photon forge. This doesn't add a trade-off. Instead, it makes the one they have relevant even at high level play. Thoughts?wouldnt really work. Imagine fighting a warrior,which hits 1time per second or less and fighting an tanky revenant, which hits 5times a second.also it means, that the holo can be waaay longer in its high-damage form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovark.2514 Posted November 29, 2019 Author Share Posted November 29, 2019 @Virdo.1540 said:@Ovark.2514 said:Holo's currently have 2 trade-offs technically: They lose the toolbelt skills based on their elite, and they can overheat if they mismanage their photon forge. The first isn't really a trade-off since photon forge is stronger than any toolbelt skill will ever be. The second never happens in competitive play unless the player is a noob. So My suggestion is this: Holos now gain 1% heat when struck while in photon forge. This doesn't add a trade-off. Instead, it makes the one they have relevant even at high level play. Thoughts?wouldnt really work. Imagine fighting a warrior,which hits 1time per second or less and fighting an tanky revenant, which hits 5times a second.It could be changed to a per-skill basis. Anet has never done a defensive trait though that gives an effect on a per-enemy-skill basis. It's always per strike. Would be cool to be sure....edit: spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan.9387 Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 @Ovark.2514 said:Holo's currently have 2 trade-offs technically: They lose the toolbelt skills based on their elite, and they can overheat if they mismanage their photon forge. The first isn't really a trade-off since photon forge is stronger than any toolbelt skill will ever be. The second never happens in competitive play unless the player is a noob. So My suggestion is this: Holos now gain 1% heat when struck while in photon forge. This doesn't add a trade-off. Instead, it makes the one they have relevant even at high level play. Thoughts?Sure if soulbeasts get an adjustment where you die if your pet dies.This also doesn't add a trade off. Instead, it makes the one they have relevant even at high level play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math.5123 Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 Holos inflicted by burning gains 15 heat per second.Holos inflicted by chill loses 15 heat per second. /s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ovark.2514 Posted November 29, 2019 Author Share Posted November 29, 2019 @Ryan.9387 said:@Ovark.2514 said:Holo's currently have 2 trade-offs technically: They lose the toolbelt skills based on their elite, and they can overheat if they mismanage their photon forge. The first isn't really a trade-off since photon forge is stronger than any toolbelt skill will ever be. The second never happens in competitive play unless the player is a noob. So My suggestion is this: Holos now gain 1% heat when struck while in photon forge. This doesn't add a trade-off. Instead, it makes the one they have relevant even at high level play. Thoughts?Sure if soulbeasts get an adjustment where you die if your pet dies.This also doesn't add a trade off. Instead, it makes the one they have relevant even at high level play. I know you're just mocking me, but I actually think that would be a great idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 both of the current trade offs you listed definitely fall way short but I don't think your idea is a solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantheman.3589 Posted November 29, 2019 Share Posted November 29, 2019 But this would make holo impossible for ppl in low tier they would go to a team fight and insta die to necro a every time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Falan.1839 Posted November 30, 2019 Share Posted November 30, 2019 The whole tradeoff thing was just another half-assed brainfart anyway that has never been really consistently applied. The tradeoff on Holo obviously doesn't do much, but the coming nerfs on tuesday will be enough to remove holo from the meta anyway, at least the current build. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten.2617 Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 @Ovark.2514 said:Holo's currently have 2 trade-offs technically: They lose the toolbelt skills based on their elite, and they can overheat if they mismanage their photon forge. The first isn't really a trade-off since photon forge is stronger than any toolbelt skill will ever be. The second never happens in competitive play unless the player is a noob. So My suggestion is this: Holos now gain 1% heat when struck while in photon forge. This doesn't add a trade-off. Instead, it makes the one they have relevant even at high level play. Thoughts?Let's see:1 - while Photonforge, no weapon skills(locked for 6s).2 - while Photonforge, no kit access(locked for 6s).3 - while Photonforge, no ranged combat(It's a melee spec).4 - while Photonforge, skill using are limited by heat level at cos of overheat.5 - Overheat, causes damage(8k).6 - Overheat locks toolbelt skills.7 - Overheat locks access to Photonforge.8 - Holosmith tree doens't works without heat level least at 50%. This forces the player to enter Photonforge to get minimal benefict of exceed skills.I see least 8 trade-off here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curennos.9307 Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 @JETWING.2759 said:@Ovark.2514 said:Holo's currently have 2 trade-offs technically: They lose the toolbelt skills based on their elite, and they can overheat if they mismanage their photon forge. The first isn't really a trade-off since photon forge is stronger than any toolbelt skill will ever be. The second never happens in competitive play unless the player is a noob. So My suggestion is this: Holos now gain 1% heat when struck while in photon forge. This doesn't add a trade-off. Instead, it makes the one they have relevant even at high level play. Thoughts?Let's see:1 - while Photonforge, no weapon skills(locked for 6s).2 - while Photonforge, no kit access(locked for 6s).3 - while Photonforge, no ranged combat(It's a melee spec).4 - while Photonforge, skill using are limited by heat level at cos of overheat.5 - Overheat, causes damage(8k).6 - Overheat locks toolbelt skills.7 - Overheat locks access to Photonforge.8 - Holosmith tree doens't works without heat level least at 50%. This forces the player to enter Photonforge to get minimal benefict of exceed skills.I see least 8 trade-off here.Ya and when people weapon swap they lose access to the skills they swapped off. This is a game-wide mechanic, not a holo specific 'tradeoff'.See aboveForge#4 exists, as does the gap closer. Also see #1. I wouldn't count 'this weaponset does stuff but it's a melee weapon not a ranged weapon'. it gets compensation for that.If you overheat you're doing something terribly wrongIf you overheat you're doing something terribly wrongIf you overheat you're doing something terribly wrongIf you overheat you're doing something terribly wrongHow many Exceed skills does someone use? Really? And the skills themselves are decent-ish. Or were, until nerfs. That's a nerf thing tho, which I agree needs a look at.So, no. This is the problem with holo. The 'drawbacks' it has are only drawbacks or tradeoffs if you're terrible at the game. Otherwise, they become negligible to nonexistant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emberheart.8426 Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 In my opinion holosmith only needs one trade-off really. You should be giving up every single toolbelt skill. It may seem like overkill, but bear with me for a moment. Most of you must realize that core engi is possibly the worst core class in the game by quite a bit, with the only other core class coming close being ele. Core engi need lots of improvements. So many in fact, that I cannot see holosmith being balanced after all of that without having a huge trade-off like giving up all the toolbelt skills. We already know what a solid core class + strong elite spec looks like. It's guardian with firebrand that's the main example. A solid core class with a very powerful spec that barely has a trade-off for what you get. It is the undisputed meta support in every single game mode, making other supports nearly irrelevant.I would really rather see such a harsh trade-off with real core engi improvements. The same way I'd also like to see targeted nerfs in overperforming weaver abilities like the evades and primordial stance, while the devs work on making core ele actually solid. The core ele weapons are pretty outdated, especially staff. If the weapons are outdated, the class mechanic is also outdated, since attunements = more weapon skills. If it's too strong, just change weaver even more and make the core #3 skills inaccessible.Basically I really dislike how certain elite specs hold core class improvements back so much and thus become the only way to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradoxoglanis.1904 Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 Overheat damage should be nerfed but should still apply when you deactivate photon forge, dealing more damage based on how much heat you have built up. This way if you spam forge skills you take more self damage. Maybe this could justify their insane self healing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ten.2617 Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 @Curennos.9307 said:@JETWING.2759 said:@Ovark.2514 said:Holo's currently have 2 trade-offs technically: They lose the toolbelt skills based on their elite, and they can overheat if they mismanage their photon forge. The first isn't really a trade-off since photon forge is stronger than any toolbelt skill will ever be. The second never happens in competitive play unless the player is a noob. So My suggestion is this: Holos now gain 1% heat when struck while in photon forge. This doesn't add a trade-off. Instead, it makes the one they have relevant even at high level play. Thoughts?Let's see:1 - while Photonforge, no weapon skills(locked for 6s).2 - while Photonforge, no kit access(locked for 6s).3 - while Photonforge, no ranged combat(It's a melee spec).4 - while Photonforge, skill using are limited by heat level at cos of overheat.5 - Overheat, causes damage(8k).6 - Overheat locks toolbelt skills.7 - Overheat locks access to Photonforge.8 - Holosmith tree doens't works without heat level least at 50%. This forces the player to enter Photonforge to get minimal benefict of exceed skills.I see least 8 trade-off here.Ya and when people weapon swap they lose access to the skills they swapped off. This is a game-wide mechanic, not a holo specific 'tradeoff'.See aboveForge#4 exists, as does the gap closer. Also see #1. I wouldn't count 'this weaponset does stuff but it's a melee weapon not a ranged weapon'. it gets compensation for that.If you overheat you're doing something terribly wrongIf you overheat you're doing something terribly wrongIf you overheat you're doing something terribly wrongIf you overheat you're doing something terribly wrongHow many Exceed skills does someone use? Really? And the skills themselves are decent-ish. Or were, until nerfs. That's a nerf thing tho, which I agree needs a look at.So, no. This is the problem with holo. The 'drawbacks' it has are only drawbacks or tradeoffs if you're terrible at the game. Otherwise, they become negligible to nonexistant. No other class has this kind of drawback.Look at Reaper, Berserker or Scrapper, for example. They just go ahead to their targets without fear anything...What if Reaper takes self damage and loss half of his hp case life force ends while in Shroud???What if Spelbreaker takes self burn when use his F1 skill?What if Soulbeast can't enter beast mode and get his respective pet skills locked case this pet dies or the Ranger enter in downed state?It's a heavi drawback... Puts the Engi on constant pressure against himself + each adversary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyPuppy.8970 Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:Holos inflicted by burning gains 15 heat per second.Holos inflicted by chill loses 15 heat per second. /s I have suggested this as well a long time ago... seems logical to me, but well.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 @JETWING.2759 said:@Curennos.9307 said:@JETWING.2759 said:@Ovark.2514 said:Holo's currently have 2 trade-offs technically: They lose the toolbelt skills based on their elite, and they can overheat if they mismanage their photon forge. The first isn't really a trade-off since photon forge is stronger than any toolbelt skill will ever be. The second never happens in competitive play unless the player is a noob. So My suggestion is this: Holos now gain 1% heat when struck while in photon forge. This doesn't add a trade-off. Instead, it makes the one they have relevant even at high level play. Thoughts?Let's see:1 - while Photonforge, no weapon skills(locked for 6s).2 - while Photonforge, no kit access(locked for 6s).3 - while Photonforge, no ranged combat(It's a melee spec).4 - while Photonforge, skill using are limited by heat level at cos of overheat.5 - Overheat, causes damage(8k).6 - Overheat locks toolbelt skills.7 - Overheat locks access to Photonforge.8 - Holosmith tree doens't works without heat level least at 50%. This forces the player to enter Photonforge to get minimal benefict of exceed skills.I see least 8 trade-off here.Ya and when people weapon swap they lose access to the skills they swapped off. This is a game-wide mechanic, not a holo specific 'tradeoff'.See aboveForge#4 exists, as does the gap closer. Also see #1. I wouldn't count 'this weaponset does stuff but it's a melee weapon not a ranged weapon'. it gets compensation for that.If you overheat you're doing something terribly wrongIf you overheat you're doing something terribly wrongIf you overheat you're doing something terribly wrongIf you overheat you're doing something terribly wrongHow many Exceed skills does someone use? Really? And the skills themselves are decent-ish. Or were, until nerfs. That's a nerf thing tho, which I agree needs a look at.So, no. This is the problem with holo. The 'drawbacks' it has are only drawbacks or tradeoffs if you're terrible at the game. Otherwise, they become negligible to nonexistant. No other class has this kind of drawback.Look at Reaper, Berserker or Scrapper, for example. They just go ahead to their targets without fear anything...What if Reaper takes self damage and loss half of his hp case life force ends while in Shroud???What if Spelbreaker takes self burn when use his F1 skill?What if Soulbeast can't enter beast mode and get his respective pet skills locked case this pet dies or the Ranger enter in downed state?It's a heavi drawback... Puts the Engi on constant pressure against himself + each adversary.UH what about the nerf to necro rez? the unholy signet I think it is with the 50% hp damage for nerf.Granted this isn't a nerf to reaper at all, more of a nerf to rez and the unholy signet gets a buff in generating 100% life force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curennos.9307 Posted December 1, 2019 Share Posted December 1, 2019 @JETWING.2759 said:@Curennos.9307 said:@JETWING.2759 said:@Ovark.2514 said:Holo's currently have 2 trade-offs technically: They lose the toolbelt skills based on their elite, and they can overheat if they mismanage their photon forge. The first isn't really a trade-off since photon forge is stronger than any toolbelt skill will ever be. The second never happens in competitive play unless the player is a noob. So My suggestion is this: Holos now gain 1% heat when struck while in photon forge. This doesn't add a trade-off. Instead, it makes the one they have relevant even at high level play. Thoughts?Let's see:1 - while Photonforge, no weapon skills(locked for 6s).2 - while Photonforge, no kit access(locked for 6s).3 - while Photonforge, no ranged combat(It's a melee spec).4 - while Photonforge, skill using are limited by heat level at cos of overheat.5 - Overheat, causes damage(8k).6 - Overheat locks toolbelt skills.7 - Overheat locks access to Photonforge.8 - Holosmith tree doens't works without heat level least at 50%. This forces the player to enter Photonforge to get minimal benefict of exceed skills.I see least 8 trade-off here.Ya and when people weapon swap they lose access to the skills they swapped off. This is a game-wide mechanic, not a holo specific 'tradeoff'.See aboveForge#4 exists, as does the gap closer. Also see #1. I wouldn't count 'this weaponset does stuff but it's a melee weapon not a ranged weapon'. it gets compensation for that.If you overheat you're doing something terribly wrongIf you overheat you're doing something terribly wrongIf you overheat you're doing something terribly wrongIf you overheat you're doing something terribly wrongHow many Exceed skills does someone use? Really? And the skills themselves are decent-ish. Or were, until nerfs. That's a nerf thing tho, which I agree needs a look at.So, no. This is the problem with holo. The 'drawbacks' it has are only drawbacks or tradeoffs if you're terrible at the game. Otherwise, they become negligible to nonexistant. No other class has this kind of drawback.Look at Reaper, Berserker or Scrapper, for example. They just go ahead to their targets without fear anything...What if Reaper takes self damage and loss half of his hp case life force ends while in Shroud???What if Spelbreaker takes self burn when use his F1 skill?What if Soulbeast can't enter beast mode and get his respective pet skills locked case this pet dies or the Ranger enter in downed state?It's a heavi drawback... Puts the Engi on constant pressure against himself + each adversary.I went through the trouble of actually reading what you wrote when quoting and responding to you. Please return the courtesy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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