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Fraenir of Jormag Strike mission (more spoilers?)


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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Randulf.7614" said:Bridging the gap/giving a taster to get people more used to coordination (which is required for gold medal).

The vast majority of Raid encounters don't reach the enrage timer, and even when you reach it, generally you can still beat the encounter, there are very few hard enrages. Adding "medals" and time thresholds is a very lazy way of creating "challenge", combined with the non-existent rewards for getting that silver/gold medal making it completely pointless. It's more complex mechanics, especially group mechanics, that create challenge in group content, not the addition of time thresholds.

@"Blaeys.3102" said:These strike missions desperately need difficulty tiers that add mechanics and tighten enrage timers (and offer decent reward).

Exactly. At first just a single CM mode would work (baby steps). I can understand why they don't do it right away, afraid it will split the community, but at some point Strike Missions need both better rewards and more mechanics/challenge. On one hand they can keep the current difficulty for when you go in with a group of randoms, but there should be a more intense (not only with lazy tighter timers) version for when going with an organized group.

Thank you so much for posting. I think it is very telling (and promising) that you and I agree on this, given the number of times we have disagreed on the multiple mode approach to structured raids in other threads. I realize that we probably still disagree on that topic (and probably always will :) ), but seeing your comments has me more convinced than ever that strike missions are the middle ground model that difficult content needs to survive in the game.

It's simple math. Where we were seeing a raid every 9-12 months, we just saw them release three strike missions after a three month gap. I know it is still anecdotal, but would people rather have one raid a year with 3-4 boss encounters or 10-12 strike missions with a boss a piece? Even if the hard modes come retroactively, it is still a much more sustainable model. And, if they moved their raid designers to a role where their primary job was to add new mechanics to strike missions on an ongoing basis, the potential for continual, engaging content is exciting to think about (adding new levels to older bosses to the point where we have 5-6 difficulties a year from now). That would even rival the release rate of more dedicated raiding games like WoW (with the added bonus of old bosses never really becoming obsolete).

I know their stated goal was to make them a "stepping stone," but I have to think there is a better use of those resources - one that fits better with the rest of the game (strikes serving as extensions of the living story) and offers a much more sustainable model than raids will ever be able to achieve in this game.

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@"Blaeys.3102" said:Thank you so much for posting. I think it is very telling (and promising) that you and I agree on this, given the number of times we have disagreed on the multiple mode approach to structured raids in other threads. I realize that we probably still disagree on that topic (and probably always will :) ), but seeing your comments has me more convinced than ever that strike missions are the middle ground model that difficult content needs to survive in the game.

It's simple math. Where we were seeing a raid every 9-12 months, we just saw them release three strike missions after a three month gap. I know it is still anecdotal, but would people rather have one raid a year with 3-4 boss encounters or 10-12 strike missions with a boss a piece? Even if the hard modes come retroactively, it is still a much more sustainable model. And, if they moved their raid designers to a role where their primary job was to add new mechanics to strike missions on an ongoing basis, the potential for continual, engaging content is exciting to think about (adding new levels to older bosses to the point where we have 5-6 difficulties a year from now). That would even rival the release rate of more dedicated raiding games like WoW (with the added bonus of old bosses never really becoming obsolete).

I know their stated goal was to make them a "stepping stone," but I have to think there is a better use of those resources - one that fits better with the rest of the game (strikes serving as extensions of the living story) and offers a much more sustainable model than raids will ever be able to achieve in this game.

The main issue right now with Strike Missions is how they implemented their reward system. The main point of contention (or at least one of them) against multiple modes for Raids was (and will always be) the rewards, and unfortunately the way they implemented them in the Strike Missions doesn't help that discussion the least bit. In fact, it provides an excuse (and a very good one) against adding more modes in Raids, if a similar system was to be followed there of course. The kill faster, get gold, get some pitiful extra blues, reward scheme is beyond pathetic, I'd dare say it's insulting.

The idea that some players will just finish the strike mission as is, while others, that want an extra challenge, will "go for gold" is also insulting to me. I mean I've always been very vocal against the idea of "just play in white gear if you want more challenge" or "just don't use dodge", the so called "challenge yourself" idea. Arenanet went the -other- lazy way of adding difficulty by adding timers and some insulting rewards for beating them. Laziness won in the end. I never liked dps rotations and in dps heavy encounters I usually play support or healer (like Twin Largos or Keep Construct), yet I always try to be the one doing the important mechanics of the Raid encounters. I like complex mechanics, I like taking responsibility for them for the team, but I dislike dps races.

The only hope is that they will fix this mess and actual challenge modes will come in the future and I agree this has the potential of being a very sustainable model, it's just Arenanet missing most of the marks with their Strike Mission releases so far. Maybe it's too soon and by the end of Season 5 we'll all, of all skill levels and challenge levels, enjoy Strike Missions and they will effectively replace Raids and even Fractals. But they have to do A LOT MORE to convince the players that Strike Missions are a good replacement and not a waste of time and resources.

PS: I posted numerous times my own version of how easier versions of Raid encounters could work, I'm not 100% against the idea. I just don't like the way some of the more vocal posters present it. I know I went a bit off topic here, but I really dislike the Strike Mission reward scheme and hope it's changed or tweaked in the future before I call it a good replacement for challenging content.

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@xDudisx.5914 said:If strikes mission get hard to the point players can't pug with the public mode avg pug, I believe most people will stop doing them after they get the achievements.

I don't think the public mode needs to become any harder, it's a public mission after all. But if the pre-made mode remains the same as a public mode version, and you can even get gold using the public version with random people, then the pre-made version loses any reason to exist.

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@Ertrak.9506 said:This one felt like a harder dps check to make gold cuz of the invuln phases.

Felt the same, I had no issues getting gold on previous missions with teams not running pure DPS..But this one seems to be a giant HP sponge so it appears to me you need most if not all your players running DPS to get it this time.. which will kinda suck as pure DPS builds are not fun to play for me.. specially melee focused glass canons.. I strongly dislike that playstyle and being forced to use it.

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@Teratus.2859 said:

@Ertrak.9506 said:This one felt like a harder dps check to make gold cuz of the invuln phases.

Felt the same, I had no issues getting gold on previous missions with teams not running pure DPS..But this one seems to be a giant HP sponge so it appears to me you need most if not all your players running DPS to get it this time.. which will kinda suck as pure DPS builds are not fun to play for me.. specially melee focused glass canons.. I strongly dislike that playstyle and being forced to use it.

Considering that you need DPS for raids, and that strike missions are to bridge the gap between brain dead content of open world PvE and raids, the timer is just fine. If you want gold then your group simply needs to perform better. Gold should not be a participation prize. There’s enough of that in the open world.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:Gold should not be a participation prize.

That's not what i'm saying.

Raids and by extention Strike missions should be and are far better when they are more than just a base DPS check.This is the kind of content where healing, support, tanks and many other types of builds should excell and be required to get Gold etc and content where teams of pure DPS should be discouraged and actively punished by the game.

If you can just blitz through the content with pure DPS then strike missions are going to end up becoming as mindless as dungeons or low tier fractals are because of it.Other playstyles should be catered too and neccessary, especially for this kind of content.

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@Teratus.2859 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Gold should not be a participation prize.

That's not what i'm saying.

Raids and by extention Strike missions should be and are far better when they are more than just a base DPS check.This is the kind of content where healing, support, tanks and many other types of builds should excell and be required to get Gold etc and content where teams of pure DPS should be discouraged and actively punished by the game.

If you can just blitz through the content with pure DPS then strike missions are going to end up becoming as mindless as dungeons or low tier fractals are because of it.Other playstyles should be catered too and neccessary, especially for this kind of content.

Remove the DPS check and then players will just go full defensive. Gold is there for those willing to put in the effort and play more optimally even though the reward for doing so is laughable. Besides, the DPS check isn't that strict in both raids and this strike mission. Nerfing the DPS check for gold so that any build and team comp can get it is essentially making it a participation prize. Those that want to play with anything can still complete the strike. Those that want to try harder and go for gold.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:Remove the DPS check and then players will just go full defensive.

Most Raid encounters don't have dps checks, even if you reach 0 on the enrage you can still play and finish the fight. It's how low-mans happen, can't really solo or duo a raid boss within the limits of the enrage timer.

Those that want to play with anything can still complete the strike. Those that want to try harder and go for gold.

Yes this works for the public version. But I believe the premade version can use some extra team-oriented mechanics to make it better group content. Instead of relying on timers.

Edit: it's how non-dps playstyles shine in Raids. They are nearly useless in Strike Missions.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Remove the DPS check and then players will just go full defensive.

Most Raid encounters don't have dps checks, even if you reach 0 on the enrage you can still play and finish the fight. It's how low-mans happen, can't really solo or duo a raid boss within the limits of the enrage timer.

So because some very skilled players can go past the enrage timers, there’s not a DPS check? Going with that logic, dungeons and some fractals can be done solo so they must be solo content. Groups that hit the enrage timers are going to fail through a combination of failing mechanics and poor DPS.

By all means, show me a pug group that can go past the enrage timer and successfully beat the boss. A group that can do the mechanics but their DPS is just so low that they go past the timer.

Those that want to play with anything can still complete the strike. Those that want to try harder and go for gold.

Yes this works for the public version. But I believe the premade version can use some extra team-oriented mechanics to make it better group content. Instead of relying on timers.

Edit: it's how non-dps playstyles shine in Raids. They are nearly useless in Strike Missions.

Non-DPS playstyles are very useful in strike missions and actually trivialize them due to how low of a skill cap Anet is still setting them at. Heals and boons help quite a lot.

There’s only one version of a strike mission.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:By all means, show me a pug group that can go past the enrage timer and successfully beat the boss.

Depends on how much time is left on the boss. If it's ~2-3% it's perfectly doable to survive a boss during enrage. I'm not saying to remove enrage timers completely, I'm saying all the strike missions have so far is an enrage timer. Which is ok for content that is designed for variable number of players that join randomly, but it's not very good for content that can be done by premade squads.

There’s only one version of a strike mission.

Yes and that's the problem with the strike missions

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Fairly easy boss. Not hard to beat it with the presence of a healer (leaving only 1 skill to watch out for).

Can't really tell the difference between getting Gold and Silver. Same amount of Eitrite Ingots from both essence chest at the end with no unique drop/skins (no RnG for skins, Hurray!). Boons makes a huge difference and a requirement if attempting to get Gold.

Do hope something can be done to the floor shadings to help make the warning indicators(red circle and pulse) clearer. And minor change for the boss, doesn't start with the "freezing skill" right off the bat when players are about to engage.

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