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[Vid] Who is arenanet trying to attract with mechanics like this?


RisenHowl.2419

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@"Vagrant.7206" said:Anybody else notice that one of their guild names was "Can't Spell Mesmer Without [MEME]"?

Play like this is the precise reason why there are were traits like auto-elixir S on most classes, to prevent this kind of degenerate play. But everyone screamed about passives, so here we are.

ah it was shorts then, preety sure he made that guild on stream with fat pink norn and went around trolling with core

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@"Leonidrex.5649" said:oh and btw, i want this kitten gone. I just dont wanna lose everything alongside it.anet has been ripping feathers from mesmer for a while now, not much of them left im afraid.

until Anet return Mesmer Profession back to who they are called to be, nothing will ever change.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Mesmer&ved=2ahUKEwiEgsCwupXmAhUDWN8KHUXpAWQQFjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw31LL8-R2A2q-CCX9y8n5R8&cshid=1575237896054

Anet biggest mistake was changing Mesmer Profession identity. So now we are witnessing the consequences of it and Anet can't stop it without returning them to their root

-once you start messing with someone's identity, prepare for Chaos-

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It's not as easy to kill with the introduction of Mirage. They can easily reset the fight over and over again until you eventually get one shotted. I play a zerker mirage, and I can tell you that even with a berserker amulet I'm damn hard to kill. I made a post about it a long time ago. I proposed that anet should make mantras have a 0.1 sec cast time, so they can't be instant cast on top of other skills. And to remove the unblockable feature on greatsword 2. There is no skill involved in a one shot, especially a one shot from stealth. Skills are displayed in one's ability to counterplay. If you totally remove the chance of counter play, how is that skill. Anyone can memorize a burst combo. it shouldn't be so rewarding. Revs have a lot of burst, however it leaves you with room to win still by being a better player.

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@viquing.8254 said:

@viquing.8254 said:@bravan.3876 : who is seriously playing inspiration since 2 years ?

That doesn't matter when talking about the design of that traitline and how much skill ceiling it includes. That something doesn't or do get used never is any prove of it being or not being op, lame, easy or unhealthy mechanic (why ppl don't get that?).Player carry and team carry/conquest usefulness are two different things, they can correlate (like we have enough builds carry the player and are useful in conquest, most metabuilds are like that atm) but it doesn't need to correlate. That Countless NA guy inspiration signet invuln spam build is the best example. It doesn't shine in any role in conquest (can't rly hold caps in duels due to invuln frames, not enough dmg for a roaming or teamfight build, no teamsupport abilities etc), it has nearly zero impact on a match, all this build does well is holding bad players alive longer than they should stay alive. Good WvW and Duelbuild for low skilled ppl want easy wins in duels/ outnumbereds in gamemodes without the need to care for points and specific roles in conquest which need to be filled and no need to care for teamsynergy based on pointcapture mode. Maybe in Stronghold it could work.

What's the purpose of inspiration then.

I don't get this question, i just explained it. Also it is a low skill ceiling line just waiting for some meta changes to become relevant again and then provides another low skill ceiling build that will be useful in conquest, like we had during HoT. From HoT release to PoF release no Mesmer meta was running without Inspiration ever and that even after it got nerfed mid HoT. We are not save from that happens again and that for all classes, as long as low skill ceiling traitlines exist. I would rework almost all core defensive traitlines into something less passive and with higher skill ceiling, with more opportunity costs in dmg for the only active defense gets provided by them, also delete all unhealthy mechanics like PU/ Last Stand (what even seems to bug, it provides an immune to cc what is not intended when i read the tooltip, it should work like a stunbreak not like an immune so interrupt traits work and the warrior gets cced for like 0,01 sec but then automatically stunbreaks) not only Mesmers. Otherwise you will always have the problem on all classes, that you nerf one specific build and ppl just switch to the next lame kitten.

What I mean is what did you want concretely as traits in inspiration ?You know that player always play the easiest way right (low ceiling.) and it will always be the case on every class ?

I will pm you, it is going too far for that thread, also i would need to think about it first, i haven't created full alternative lines for those traitlines on all classes yet, because you know i have a job and until now don't get paid for doing balance work in GW2^^ If Anet will announce they consider something like that and ask forum for help and brainstorming i am the first start thinking deeper about how to actually rework stuff, but it is a bit too much work to do for whole traitlines to do it just for fun you know? I made alternative suggestions for single traits needed a hotfix, like old CI but didn't create full new traitlines. (As you can see how much i wrote about opportunity costs for defensive traitlines already i would write a book for each traitline, you sure you want to read that shit? :joy: )

Atm i would be happy with defensive traitlines get higher opportunity costs in dmg (like that a Chaosline Mesmer still can oneshot something is a joke, it should not be possible considering how much defense you get from Chaosline, like Superspeed, high stealth uptime, boonsustain, shorter cds on Manipulationskills like heal and Blink, even condiremove... actually ridiculous how much Chaosline offers). That could be done by something like statboni you get depending on the nature of the traitline as we had in core days. I know they removed them because they could not find a specific defensive or offensive nature for elite traitlines because they are mostly about adding new mechanics than about defense or offense (most elite traitlines offer both). You could solve that problem by making the player able to choose the stat boni after picking a traitline. Defensive traitlines only can choose between defensive statboni and offensive traitlines only between offensive statboni. You in general only allow statboni on the 2 core traitlines or you make elite traitlines be able to select from all stat bonis no matter their nature. Or you make the selection of stat boni in elite lines depending on the amount of offensive and defensive traits picked in the elite line and make elite lines only able to pick "minor stat boni" (like condiduration, ferocity, boon duration). You ofc have to give amulets/PvE armor overall less stats in return then.And delete completely passive traits like lesser stance procs in Defense traitline on Warrior or the autododge trait Instant Reflexes on Thief in Acrobatics but also offensive ones like Lesser Spinal Shivers for Necros. That would be a good start.

And yes ofc i know most ppl will always use the easiest, i do the same, i am not one of the ppl get fun in winning by skill or losing by build. I just want to chill and don't need to have 5 times the skill or do 5 times the effort for the same reward than others. I am just a metabuild carried pleb like most ppl, but at least i know it and don't develop an ego over it. I would like to play more skillbased builds but only when others are forced to do the same. I hate to have build disadvantage (i am not talking about mechanically counters, that will always exist, don't get me wrong here). That is why i say i would rework most of the core defensive traitlines not only on Mesmer, so there will not be any low skill ceiling stuff left in that game, at least not in a form that it is more rewarding to play than a skillbased build by a good player. I don't mind to have some easier builds in this game to give new (and bad) ppl an easier start to learn but these builds should not be as rewarding or even more rewarding on higher skill lvl as skillful builds.

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@"NorthernRedStar.3054" said:As someone already said: these kind of builds shouldn't exist.

But generally speaking, it's the 5-man premades in unranked that play it solely to farm new players that are the major reasons PvP population is on the decline, I'd imagine.

'when you understandtand who your customers are, what they want, what they struggle with, it becomes a lot easier to see why customers are leaving your business'

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/93005/fed-up-with-unhealthy-mechanics-taking-a-break-until-fixed#latest

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@DeadlySynz.3471 said:

@"RisenHowl.2419" said:Let me preface this by saying yes, i understand it's a meme build. It's easy to kill when you have invuln for the initial burst. Just Dodge. Only bad players die against power mes. Bring a reveal. Watch the minimap. etc.

GW2 pvp player population is at an all time low, imagine someone starting out in pvp running into this. Why on earth would they come back?

what makes you think that starting player will face players that can pull this off?you ran into 5man premade, they could play kitten like 5x holo and steamroll you harder, exept you wouldnt even be able to fight back becouse the 1-2 skills you would somehow manage to land would deal 15% of their hp instead of 40%.you kept running out of spawn into 3 of them repeatedly instead of leaving with team what did you expect?TBH if you played it properly you could actually win the game.Ah not to mention they propably were communicating unlike your team. Sometimes its better to coordinate instead of complaining yes?

They weren't talking about any of that; they were specifically talking about the burst they could do nothing about once it was in motion. Which they have a point, how is that type of attack (and player behavior) going to entice people into the game mode? Last time I checked.. PvP wasn't doing too good, perhaps a large portion of the blame can be placed squarely on the players that run those types of builds.

no, players using builds available to them is not the reason, nor is their responsibility to not play strong builds.

the reason why pvp is in a poor state is years of poor management by the developers of the game.

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@Burnfall.9573 said:

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:oh and btw, i want this kitten gone. I just dont wanna lose everything alongside it.anet has been ripping feathers from mesmer for a while now, not much of them left im afraid.

until Anet return Mesmer Profession back to who they are called to be, nothing will ever change.

Anet biggest mistake was changing Mesmer Profession identity. So now we are witnessing the consequences of it and Anet can't stop it without returning them to their root

-once you start messing with someone's identity, prepare for Chaos-

Yeah but in GW2 every mechanic is basically the C-word by design. There is no way hexes (on top of condi) would be viable in the game LOL unless they change condi to be an appropriate and balanced mechanic like in GW1. Except for blind.. serious fk blind in GW1.

I hated mesmers even back then because I was a huge RA/TA player and SoM trash build that every scrub played really pissed me off. I mean that's like the condi mes of today, mesmers are just garbage players who depend on the most C-wordous of builds.

Mesmer is literally just the highest form of being a garbage human being in a game possible. Even worse than cod campers with claymore and shotty. Hexes were ridiculously strong in GW1 too , not on the level of GW2 condi/power but pretty dang annoying and extremely effective both vs melee & caster depending on build.

The difference being it took an entire group to focus a single target down in that amount of time, coordinated over voice comms. In GW2 a single person can do it. 10/10 design LUL. So glad we dropped that trAsH group play mentality from GW1, right ANet?

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@Vicariuz.1605 said:

@"RisenHowl.2419" said:Let me preface this by saying yes, i understand it's a meme build. It's easy to kill when you have invuln for the initial burst. Just Dodge. Only bad players die against power mes. Bring a reveal. Watch the minimap. etc.

GW2 pvp player population is at an all time low, imagine someone starting out in pvp running into this. Why on earth would they come back?

what makes you think that starting player will face players that can pull this off?you ran into 5man premade, they could play kitten like 5x holo and steamroll you harder, exept you wouldnt even be able to fight back becouse the 1-2 skills you would somehow manage to land would deal 15% of their hp instead of 40%.you kept running out of spawn into 3 of them repeatedly instead of leaving with team what did you expect?TBH if you played it properly you could actually win the game.Ah not to mention they propably were communicating unlike your team. Sometimes its better to coordinate instead of complaining yes?

They weren't talking about any of that; they were specifically talking about the burst they could do nothing about once it was in motion. Which they have a point, how is that type of attack (and player behavior) going to entice people into the game mode? Last time I checked.. PvP wasn't doing too good, perhaps a large portion of the blame can be placed squarely on the players that run those types of builds.

no, players using builds available to them is not the reason, nor is their responsibility to not play strong builds.

the reason why pvp is in a poor state is years of poor management by the developers of the game.

^ This.Years of mistakes and neglect, and all the dumb things(player caused) at the top end, of this game mode has had happen with it, it's in a worse state its ever been in. Things are only going to get worse.

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@Lucentfir.7430 said:

@"RisenHowl.2419" said:Let me preface this by saying yes, i understand it's a meme build. It's easy to kill when you have invuln for the initial burst. Just Dodge. Only bad players die against power mes. Bring a reveal. Watch the minimap. etc.

GW2 pvp player population is at an all time low, imagine someone starting out in pvp running into this. Why on earth would they come back?

what makes you think that starting player will face players that can pull this off?you ran into 5man premade, they could play kitten like 5x holo and steamroll you harder, exept you wouldnt even be able to fight back becouse the 1-2 skills you would somehow manage to land would deal 15% of their hp instead of 40%.you kept running out of spawn into 3 of them repeatedly instead of leaving with team what did you expect?TBH if you played it properly you could actually win the game.Ah not to mention they propably were communicating unlike your team. Sometimes its better to coordinate instead of complaining yes?

They weren't talking about any of that; they were specifically talking about the burst they could do nothing about once it was in motion. Which they have a point, how is that type of attack (and player behavior) going to entice people into the game mode? Last time I checked.. PvP wasn't doing too good, perhaps a large portion of the blame can be placed squarely on the players that run those types of builds.

no, players using builds available to them is not the reason, nor is their responsibility to not play strong builds.

the reason why pvp is in a poor state is years of poor management by the developers of the game.

^ This.Years of mistakes and neglect, and all the dumb things(player caused) at the top end, of this game mode has had happen with it, it's in a worse state its ever been in. Things are only going to get worse.

You are correct

Did you know just few day ago another Anet staff left the company? Even creative staffs are leaving on top of players whose fed up with Anet continual ignoring root cause problems of the game are leaving

When Will It End?

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@DeadlySynz.3471 said:

@"RisenHowl.2419" said:Let me preface this by saying yes, i understand it's a meme build. It's easy to kill when you have invuln for the initial burst. Just Dodge. Only bad players die against power mes. Bring a reveal. Watch the minimap. etc.

GW2 pvp player population is at an all time low, imagine someone starting out in pvp running into this. Why on earth would they come back?

what makes you think that starting player will face players that can pull this off?you ran into 5man premade, they could play kitten like 5x holo and steamroll you harder, exept you wouldnt even be able to fight back becouse the 1-2 skills you would somehow manage to land would deal 15% of their hp instead of 40%.you kept running out of spawn into 3 of them repeatedly instead of leaving with team what did you expect?TBH if you played it properly you could actually win the game.Ah not to mention they propably were communicating unlike your team. Sometimes its better to coordinate instead of complaining yes?

They weren't talking about any of that; they were specifically talking about the burst they could do nothing about once it was in motion. Which they have a point, how is that type of attack (and player behavior) going to entice people into the game mode? Last time I checked.. PvP wasn't doing too good, perhaps a large portion of the blame can be placed squarely on the players that run those types of builds.

Wrong, in the end the blame is in the hands of the developers. You can't just expect the playerbase to police themselves, that's wishful thinking, but completely unrealistic. If there is something cheesy in any game, players are going to take advantage it until it's either balanced out or ceases to exist. And in gw2's case, they will typically nerf something completely unrelated, gutting the class in the process and patting themselves on the back, calling it fixed.

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@Odik.4587 said:

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:
TBH if you played it properly you could actually win the game.
They won the game cuz mesmers targeted this salty necro and spawncamped him :DTo salty necro: Attract new players? They want to attract new PVE players through...pvp...?10 iq

My team "won", the only thing they were interested in was spawn camping with 4 mesmers

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what really good about this video is OP saw 4 mesmers on other team and still decided to play necro.

This is the dumb thing that always happens in rank game. people stupidly stick to their class like they are role playing in 2019

i'm not defending this build but it could have been 4 mirages 4 Rev 4 pew pew ranger 4 core guard and you would get melt in 3 seconds anyway because u decided to play necro.

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@Liza.2758 said:what really good about this video is OP saw 4 mesmers on other team and still decided to play necro.

Not only that, but he just runs solo up to clocktower and YOLOs into certain death over and over again. Not that it matters, enemy team was just meme-ing. But this is a very good example of how not to play necromancer.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"RisenHowl.2419" said:Let me preface this by saying yes, i understand it's a meme build. It's easy to kill when you have invuln for the initial burst. Just Dodge. Only bad players die against power mes. Bring a reveal. Watch the minimap. etc.

GW2 pvp player population is at an all time low, imagine someone starting out in pvp running into this. Why on earth would they come back?

what makes you think that starting player will face players that can pull this off?you ran into 5man premade, they could play kitten like 5x holo and steamroll you harder, exept you wouldnt even be able to fight back becouse the 1-2 skills you would somehow manage to land would deal 15% of their hp instead of 40%.you kept running out of spawn into 3 of them repeatedly instead of leaving with team what did you expect?TBH if you played it properly you could actually win the game.Ah not to mention they propably were communicating unlike your team. Sometimes its better to coordinate instead of complaining yes?

They weren't talking about any of that; they were specifically talking about the burst they could do nothing about once it was in motion. Which they have a point, how is that type of attack (and player behavior) going to entice people into the game mode? Last time I checked.. PvP wasn't doing too good, perhaps a large portion of the blame can be placed squarely on the players that run those types of builds.

if new player, faces other new player on this build he will whoop his kitten.its actually one of the builds that you have to put some thought process into playing, when i was new getting bursted down wasnt a thing that discouraged me.fighting scrapper that took 0 damage, that legit generated perma 50% barrier while fighting against me did, it was the warriors that were hitting me for 10k while remaining untouchable, soulbeasts that pewpew for 10k from range while being tanky, firebrands that vomit aoe on nodes and YOU have to leave becouse its theirs now.

Yes! This is what we call rock/paper/scissors, and something players seem to forget about. Instead of say... realizing their class (paper), has no chance against another class (scissors). So instead of players jumping on a proper class to deal with them (rock), they scream at Anet to nerf scissors into the ground.

But this is beside the point at the moment, what exactly counters an insta-dead burst from a class from stealth? What exactly counters it? It doesn't matter how much thought goes into delivering the attack; if the attack is not counterable (mainly because you can't see it coming and your dead when they (or the clones appear). But in this case, what counters a mirage (this has been brought up before by many people). This has nothing to do with classes you can see coming with attacks you can see coming. You can see rangers coming at you with longbow, you can see warriors charging at you swinging, you can see firebrands and scourges spitting AoE all over the place, and you can see engineers hobbling around with barriers till the cows come home. This specifically has to do with classes that insta-down people from stealth, it's not counterable, because there is no such thing as permanent reveal.

If one sees a mesmer in the area and goes stealth, it's reasonable to assume that a quick succession of attacks is coming. So anticipate and dodge, throw up blocks, throw up invulnerable, hell even leave. So what exactly does one do against an insta-death shot from something you can see (nor know is in the area?) What exactly does one bring to the table in anticipating an insta-down burst from a stealthed class when you have no idea where it is? Waste your reveal? Ya they weren't there, now what..

At this stage in the game though, Anet won't be changing anything, and PvP largely have themselves to blame when it comes to the ghost town PvP is becoming. People can only fathom mesmer's for so long before growing tired of it, much like how people are growing tired of Firebrands and Scourges in WvW.

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about balance:Absolutely don't see something bad in this video. Perfect game-play and good balance. Exactly, this is real balance in good mmo games.If someone think that mesmer op - this is great - he/she can try it and take legend rank per few days.Welcome. No one can stop you !!!

about toxicity:I pref keep separate chat, and during pvp I see only guild chat. Party/squad, and whispers on other tabs, ant mostly never not used and not switched, other chats is off at all. So no matter how me or others play I don't feel any toxicity at all.I just take pica and tea, and get fun with perfect game.

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Anet balance team be like : "Yo let's replicate the Time To Kill from Call of Duty."

@Vagrant.7206 said:But everyone screamed about passives, so here we are.Then it looks like it's time to tear down the bursts and normalize damage below 5 digits.

I'm in favor of just getting rid of Precision and Ferocity entirely (slightly boosting Power in trade), and on the condi side, delete the Condi stat. There's just too much stupid shit being flung around in this game. Too much of everything On The Table™. This game is like a circus but all the clowns are on adderal and wearing RGB noses.

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@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:
TBH if you played it properly you could actually win the game.
They won the game cuz mesmers targeted this salty necro and spawncamped him :DTo salty necro: Attract new players? They want to attract new PVE players through...pvp...?10 iq

My team "won", the only thing they were interested in was spawn camping with 4 mesmersO,rly? You did a good job running into 3-4 mesmers alone and zero reaction to use breakstun 12/10 gameplay. /sThey made you and other 4 ppl cry for nerfs, they are winners :joy:Reasons why new players wont stay: the game is power crept to insanity, they would feel fallen behind compared to players who are playing for years and being destroyed over and over and eventually drop(its pve focused game lul).Seeking the balance? That CMC is a slave of "pro players" that ask for their opinion. "Rev is favored by the best players", "FB is going to stay the best support in the game and this wont change anytime soon" :joy: :joy: :joy:
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So does every build from mediocre to meta, along with everyone who is objectively better than new players; actively discourage them because they lose?Does anyone who smirfs or intentionally tanks their MMR in any other game actively discourage the players they dunk on?

PvP population is low for several reasons, builds and balance are part of it sure; but that is one bit in a long run of symptoms to bigger core issues. As for the example itself if it wasn't Power mes it could have been anything else that equally invalidates the match- even more so when you have a premade vs newbs. If this is the basis we are using for "should not exist" I'm fine with that, but everything else, especially that which is more egregious than this example, needs to get Thanos snapped too.

Our worst players from a year ago are going to obliterate anyone just joining now, despite our tiny population the floor of the worst PvPer is going to be significantly higher than any PvE casul who doesn't even know dodging is a mechanic.

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@"Ragnarox.9601" said:who cares about mesmers, devs only play that and thief. Just nerf Firebrand! Why? cause mesmers can do it better.

? devs literally do everything in their power to avoiding nerfing firebrand.whenever they do get around nerfing something they make sure to buff something elseThere is a reason why guard is the best dps in pve, the best support in pve, easy to play.The best support in pvp too, and hes not getting nerfed :DMeanwhile "favourite" mesmer gets nerfed every single patch for years.LuL developers even buffed guard during no balance batch, just some QoL changes but guard special little snowflake gets dmg boost :D

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@"Daishi.6027" said:So does every build from mediocre to meta, along with everyone who is objectively better than new players; actively discourage them because they lose?Does anyone who smirfs or intentionally tanks their MMR in any other game actively discourage the players they dunk on?

PvP population is low for several reasons, builds and balance are part of it sure; but that is one bit in a long run of symptoms to bigger core issues. As for the example itself if it wasn't Power mes it could have been anything else that equally invalidates the match- even more so when you have a premade vs newbs. If this is the basis we are using for "should not exist" I'm fine with that, but everything else, especially that which is more egregious than this example, needs to get Thanos snapped too.

Our worst players from a year ago are going to obliterate anyone just joining now, despite our tiny population the floor of the worst PvPer is going to be significantly higher than any PvE casul who doesn't even know dodging is a mechanic.

Partly right. If the game was more popular, newbs would have other newbs to play against, instead of players with 12 months experience demolishing them. And as someone pointed out popular games do more to discourage people trolling like this. And as you pointed out imbalance doesn't help the situation at all.

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