My Idea for a Trickery Rework

[BoxHat.1824]

The idea here is to rework/reorganize the Trickery Spec into a more coherent line with specific applications, rather than being a general trait-line taken for the +3 Initiative. Overall the lines should be more powerful but come at the cost of damage as lead attacks are removed. There should be 3 clear focuses within the tree: the top line for self/enemy boon generation and management; the middle line for utility; the bottom line for cover condi application; meanwhile the three minors all improve Thief steal as baseline for picking Trickery, and the Master traits provide a choice for a single unique steal enhancement. In addition, the 3 Grandmaster traits give the thief an interesting an unique gameplay-changing build focus.

Bold new or altered traitItalics numbers can obviously be changed or balanced

Baseline: +3 initiative becomes baseline for thief. allowing skill costs to be properly balanced no matter what specs are takenAdept Minor: [Trickster]Steal Cd reduced by 30% (roughly equivalent to taking current sleight of hand + lead attacks)Master Minor: [Kleptomaniac] Gain 2 Initiative on StealGrandmaster Minor: [Thug] Stealing dazes your opponent (1second)

Top line: Boon generation and controlAdept: [burst of Agility] Cast Lesser Haste when hitting from behind. (Quickness, Fury, Swiftness duration all halved to 3seconds, Stun Break removed. CD reduced from 60 to 20 Seconds)Master: [bountiful Theft] Stealing grants you and all nearby allies vigor. You rip boons from your target and grant them to nearby allies.Grandmaster: [insurance Fraud] Removing a boon from an enemy 'locks' the boon, preventing that boon from having any effect on the enemy for 3 seconds even if reapplied. Duration of these 'locked' boons is paused while they have no effect. (this part is optional depending how strong the trait turns out to be) Locked boons cannot be stolen (but can be corrupted)

Middle Line: UtilityAdept: [Trickster] Tricks gain reduced recharge and remove conditions. (No Change)Master: [Deep Pockets] gain an f3 slot which can now hold an additional, second stolen skill if f2 is full when stealing.Grandmaster: [Quick hands] Weapons Swap CD reduced to 2 seconds. Weapons swap either costs or refunds initiative based on the time since weapons were last swapped. Initiative cost scale from 3 -1 between 2 and 7 seconds, Initiative gain scales from 1-3 between 9 and 14 Seconds. (provides shorter default free weapons swap, the option to swap more frequently at a cost, and the ability to refund some initiative{current functionality} when swapping infrequently) cost/gain is indicated by 3 small dots above the weapon swap icon on the UI which change from red to blue.

Bottom Line: Cover CondisAdept: [uncatchable] cast lesser caltrops when you dodgeMaster: [bewildering Ambush] Stealing also applies confusion.Grandmaster [Pressure Striking] Enemies you interrupt are inflicted with torment. Torment increases the damage of other conditions by 1% per stack. (with daze on steal now a guaranteed minor trait it doesn't compete with itself in the Grandmaster slot for obvious synergy)

[LadyKitty.6120]

Note: Kitty's a PVE endgame player and her responses are from PVE perspective.+3 initiative would be a really bad idea for thief as it'd essentially give ridiculous boost to deadeye with Maleficent Seven due to providing allowing more skillspam without drawbacks. This change would require nerfing rifle and dagger damage. It would also remove one of the main reasons to take trickery to begin with.Pressure Striking would cause condi pistol deadeye's damage to go thru the roof (it'll bench about 30k dps as pistol-only after the balance patch and the change you're suggesting would allow doing 37-38k dps with the simpliest and risk-free rotation available)Thug would be very underwhelming for general minor trait for the spec.Deep Pockets would stack with Improvisation from DA and that'd allow some ridiculous boonstacking with stolen skills. Balancebreaking again.Removing the lead stacks would make this build even more pointless for a power dps.For leveling purposes and for providing some support, Thrill of the Crime has been a good trait as it has allowed this to help with boon uptimes for healer-less subgroup and it's also been very good while leveling and the Burst of Agility change wouldn't quite cover for the loss and thus a leveling thief would rather go with CS and DA first-Kitty's very tired at the time of writing this so she didn't go very deep yet about reason why those wouldn't be very good changes in her opinion.

[BoxHat.1824]

Hey just to reply to some of your criticisms. You mentioned you are looking from a pve perspective and that is probably where a lot of our disagreements come from as this was primarily designed with PvP/WvW in mind, considering Trickery is not considered a PvE damage spec anyway (most builds prefering the better modifiers in CS + DA + elite)

+3 initiative is really not as big as it seems as it is only a one off benefit in a fight, it doesn't increase regen or refund it faster or anything. Regardless if it causes such a big issue to DE then it could early be a DE tradeoff that it loses the +3 bonus, or even slot that tradeoff into MAl7 effect.

Similarly Deep Pockets would not be as big as you think or stack as hard with Improv because again its only a 1 off occurence. when you steal once you dont fill both 'pockets' with an item. only if you come to a fight prepared with one, or if you hold off using a stolen skill during a fight until your steal recharges and then spamming its use form both pockets, but this gives up the immediate power/utility of the stolen item anyway by forcing you to hold onto it. That being said i was toying with the idea of this trait simply being the double use passive from improv without the utility recharge portion of the trait and then replacing Impove is DA with something new- just didnt seem as interesting.

Thug: how is thug underwhelming as a minor when it is currently literally a Grandmaster which is taken 90% of the time Trickery is picked? not to mention it can now interact with Pressure Striking for in-spec synergy.

Pressure Striking: im not quite sure how you think this will boost condi dps so much as it is literlly the exact same functionality that pressure striking has currently. The only difference is the added 1% condi damage per torment stack but this is there simply to cover the loss of 15% damage boost from lead attacks. Keep in mind it requires an interrupt to proc, not just a disable and so has the standard 3 second CD vs enemies with a breakbar.

Loss of lead attacks: yeah it kinda sucks but the overall utility of this line should be boosted which is the real reason it is taken it in Pvp scenarios anyway. In theory the boon lockout increased your damage output a lot by disabling protection on your enemies so i would expect the boon control line to actually have higher damage overall when it matters in PvP scenarios. As for PvE this already isnt taken as a damage spec as mentioned.

Thrill of the crime: i admit this is a loss that i would sorely miss. perhaps if my reworked burst of agility still gave the current 6 s of might/fury but had the nerfed Agility duration on a 20s CD then this loss wouldnt feel so bad>

Also i think you are the person who does fun benchmarks or really simple builds and if so i love your work :)

[Kageseigi.2150]

@Ustaf.2953 said:Baseline: +3 initiative becomes baseline for thief. allowing skill costs to be properly balanced no matter what specs are taken

Baselining 15 initiative, in my opinion, is one of the most common sense things that can be done. And over the years, it's one of the most requested things for the Thief. Personally, I don't think it would break the Deadeye, seeing that Deadeyes can already use Trickery, even if it's for all of the Steal/Mark-buffs. There's plenty of reason to take Trickery anyway, and if not, then it just means one more skill use.

Grandmaster Minor: [Thug] Stealing dazes your opponent (1second)

If this becomes a minor trait (unavoidable), then I would suggest adding a self-immunity effect in case the daze gets reflected. There were some nasty reflecting traits that were automatic (there may still be) for Mesmers, Necros, etc.

If nothing else, have Steal grant 1-second of Stability just to avoid dazing yourself.

You could even have this trait specifically steal Stability if the target has it, guaranteeing a daze/interrupt. If Bountiful Theft is also traited, that would be a possible 4 boons stolen instead of 3.

Master: [bewildering Ambush] Stealing also applies confusion.

Since Thug's daze is going to happen every Steal now, I would suggest adding 1-second to the Confusion duration, since the target won't be able to self-damage themselves by using skills while they are dazed.

Grandmaster: [Quick hands] Weapons Swap CD reduced to 2 seconds. Weapons swap either costs or refunds initiative based on the time since weapons were last swapped. Initiative cost scale from 3 -1 between 2 and 7 seconds, Initiative gain scales from 1-3 between 9 and 14 Seconds. (provides shorter default free weapons swap, the option to swap more frequently at a cost, and the ability to refund some initiative{current functionality} when swapping infrequently) cost/gain is indicated by 3 small dots above the weapon swap icon on the UI which change from red to blue.

I am always, always, always for removing/reducing the Thief's weapon-swap cooldown! Personally, I think it should be part of the initiative system itself instead of being a specific trait (the Thief's system is different than the Warrior's, and is a universal resource pool for both weapons). I would remove the cooldown altogether, or at most, make it 1-second.

Even if you had to balance it out somehow, make it cost a universal 3 initiative, and that will give plenty of justification for making 15 initiative baseline. You could even make a specific trait that reduced the weapon-swap cost to nothing.

[Sindrener.1592]

how about you make most of the NEEDED talents baseline for thief into steal, and rework trickery into something completely new. Right now you barely change most of the talents

[LadyKitty.6120]

@Ustaf.2953 said:Hey just to reply to some of your criticisms. You mentioned you are looking from a pve perspective and that is probably where a lot of our disagreements come from as this was primarily designed with PvP/WvW in mind, considering Trickery is not considered a PvE damage spec anyway (most builds prefering the better modifiers in CS + DA + elite)For PVE condi builds this is the traitline to take with DA. It is also used by power DD and core thief in open-world.

Similarly Deep Pockets would not be as big as you think or stack as hard with Improv because again its only a 1 off occurence. when you steal once you dont fill both 'pockets' with an item. only if you come to a fight prepared with one, or if you hold off using a stolen skill during a fight until your steal recharges and then spamming its use form both pockets, but this gives up the immediate power/utility of the stolen item anyway by forcing you to hold onto it. That being said i was toying with the idea of this trait simply being the double use passive from improv without the utility recharge portion of the trait and then replacing Impove is DA with something new- just didnt seem as interesting.It can be abused midfight with Impro+Trickery+Swindler's combo or with One in the Chamber, though.

Pressure Striking: im not quite sure how you think this will boost condi dps so much as it is literlly the exact same functionality that pressure striking has currently. The only difference is the added 1% condi damage per torment stack but this is there simply to cover the loss of 15% damage boost from lead attacks. Keep in mind it requires an interrupt to proc, not just a disable and so has the standard 3 second CD vs enemies with a breakbar.Keep in mind that deadeye's pistol stealth attack outputs 7 stacks of torment on short cooldown as part of the rotation and Skale Venom adds 20 stacks on 24s cooldown. And against bosses, renegades and mirages output lots of torment.Loss of lead attacks: yeah it kinda sucks but the overall utility of this line should be boosted which is the real reason it is taken it in Pvp scenarios anyway. In theory the boon lockout increased your damage output a lot by disabling protection on your enemies so i would expect the boon control line to actually have higher damage overall when it matters in PvP scenarios. As for PvE this already isnt taken as a damage spec as mentioned.Except that this is the alternative damage spec and for F2P core thieves a mandatory choice. This would also hit condi DD hard while it's already considered viable for just a couple bosses.

Thrill of the crime: i admit this is a loss that i would sorely miss. perhaps if my reworked burst of agility still gave the current 6 s of might/fury but had the nerfed Agility duration on a 20s CD then this loss wouldnt feel so bad>Burst of Agility requires flanking which can be an issue in solo open-world. And the reason why Thrill of the Crime is a good trait is that it is one of the few utilities thief can possibly bring to squad in certain scenarios when it's otherwise a very selfish spec. Kitty personally uses it with her condi pistol deadeye to fill the fury and bring tiny bit of might for her sub when in sub with <100% fury uptime providing healer. Currently the caltrops-trait is mainly good for condi DD and pretty much nothing else 'cause evade=dps loss for other condi builds.

Also i think you are the person who does fun benchmarks or really simple builds and if so i love your work :)Thanks!

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@"Ustaf.2953" said:The idea here is to rework/reorganize the Trickery Spec into a more coherent line with specific applications, rather than being a general trait-line taken for the +3 Initiative. Overall the lines should be more powerful but come at the cost of damage as lead attacks are removed. There should be 3 clear focuses within the tree: the top line for self/enemy boon generation and management; the middle line for utility; the bottom line for cover condi application; meanwhile the three minors all improve Thief steal as baseline for picking Trickery, and the Master traits provide a choice for a single unique steal enhancement. In addition, the 3 Grandmaster traits give the thief an interesting an unique gameplay-changing build focus.

Bold new or altered traitItalics numbers can obviously be changed or balanced

Baseline: +3 initiative becomes baseline for thief. allowing skill costs to be properly balanced no matter what specs are taken

I'd rather have the old Opportunist (+1 init/crit) as basedline. Or reduce the cost of each weapon skills. Adding 3 more initiative may be a popular demand but it's only useful at the beginning of the engagement and does nothing if the fight drags on, which results to the Thief running away or resetting. Most builds don't even need the +3 initiatives which means, this change will do nothing for those builds.

Adept Minor: [Trickster]Steal Cd reduced by 30% (roughly equivalent to taking current sleight of hand + lead attacks)Master Minor: [Kleptomaniac] Gain 2 Initiative on StealGrandmaster Minor: [Thug] Stealing dazes your opponent (1second)

Klepto should have the Bountiful Theft trait, then change BT to something else. Then as Minor Master, put Thrill of the Crime here.

Top line: Boon generation and controlAdept: [burst of Agility] Cast Lesser Haste when hitting from behind. (Quickness, Fury, Swiftness duration all halved to 3seconds, Stun Break removed. CD reduced from 60 to 20 Seconds)

Burst of Agility should be in Acrobatics as an Adept Minor. Then Expeditious Dodger and Feline Grace should be fused into one trait.

Master: [bountiful Theft] Stealing grants you and all nearby allies vigor. You rip boons from your target and grant them to nearby allies.

This effect needs to be included into the minor adept trait. Then add a new trait "Preparedness: Reduce the CD of Preparations by 20%"

Grandmaster: [insurance Fraud] Removing a boon from an enemy 'locks' the boon, preventing that boon from having any effect on the enemy for 3 seconds even if reapplied. Duration of these 'locked' boons is paused while they have no effect. (this part is optional depending how strong the trait turns out to be) Locked boons cannot be stolen (but can be corrupted)

I made a similar suggestion before that nullify the effect of the boons instead of outright stripping them called "Petrified" (link). I made this suggestion to be added into Basilisk Venom, but as GM trait, it might be too strong. Besides, how can you lock the boon that you just removed? Also, it seems over complicated and more appropriate for the Mesmer to "lock" anything magic.

Master: [Deep Pockets] gain an f3 slot which can now hold an additional, second stolen skill if f2 is full when stealing.

Why would you want to do this? There is no benefit on holding onto a stolen item.

Grandmaster: [Quick hands] Weapons Swap CD reduced to 2 seconds. Weapons swap either costs or refunds initiative based on the time since weapons were last swapped. Initiative cost scale from 3 -1 between 2 and 7 seconds, Initiative gain scales from 1-3 between 9 and 14 Seconds. (provides shorter default free weapons swap, the option to swap more frequently at a cost, and the ability to refund some initiative{current functionality} when swapping infrequently) cost/gain is indicated by 3 small dots above the weapon swap icon on the UI which change from red to blue.

You're over complicating this. They just need to give the Thief a full Initiative bar on weapon swap and make the weapon swap CD to 12s to match the initiative base line.

Bottom Line: Cover CondisAdept: [uncatchable] cast lesser caltrops when you dodgeMaster: [bewildering Ambush] Stealing also applies confusion.Grandmaster [Pressure Striking] Enemies you interrupt are inflicted with torment. Torment increases the damage of other conditions by 1% per stack. (with daze on steal now a guaranteed minor trait it doesn't compete with itself in the Grandmaster slot for obvious synergy)

Pressure Striking as GM should apply Torment, Slow, and Cripple. No need to complicate it. Besides, taking this and Potent Poison will only break the poison damage output.