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Flandre.2870

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I feel like this is akin to letting super bad criminal X go free to go fight super bad criminal Y. I think it's probably better to just let Average Joe A, B, and C take their chances with Y, instead of having to fight them both, y'know?

Because we can't really trust super bad criminal X to only fight super bad criminal Y, now can we?

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@Eurantien.4632 said:I feel like this is akin to letting super bad criminal X go free to go fight super bad criminal Y. I think it's probably better to just let Average Joe A, B, and C take their chances with Y, instead of having to fight them both, y'know?

Because we can't really trust super bad criminal X to only fight super bad criminal Y, now can we?

Not the best analogy. If I wanted to run with your idea, a more accurate one would be like:

5 super bad criminals in custody, but only have the public resources to litigate one, until next quarter's funds come in, so the rest walk. Oh well

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Herald Shiro is overrated and definitely not overpowered. To fall short Vs one shows that they had already had an advantage over you before hand or there was too many CDs blown away for nothing when they were on the defensive.

Their burst is subpart if you know when to expect it, just like Mesmer, but that burst also falls short if you just time any form of cc right as they Phase Traversal to you.

Herald Shiro has little to no proper form of control since it sacrifices everything to just have Herald skills rather than more utility that can make it dominate fights properly. Their best utility is Infuse Light and that also falls short if you chip their health rather than go all out while also making sure they don't get any siphon with daggers.

Put in the best way possible they can't be offensive and defensive at the same time like most professions can be because Shiro Herald is a bad combo for it. Everything else aside Ventari paired with any other legend can pull off much more damage while still not overly exposing themselves. Even Renegade Shiro has more damage and more control than Herald Shiro, the reason why people play Herald still is because they can't handle playing without invulnerable frames.

You can believe me, if Herald heal wasn't so good, the skill ceiling for Revenant would be much higher and there would be more build diversity with it because people would not take it so much for granted.

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https://www.twitch.tv/videos/515300904?t=2h34m14s

The EU mAT final commentated by two engi mains, showing holos PoV quite a bit in the later part of the game and highlighting some of the issues that build already has in high end play at its current power level.

I still think possibly reducing the stealth duration on toss elixir S, tuning down resustain (for example my removing leap Finisher on Holo 2) and mildly reducing quickness uptime (not as much as it has been done) would have been an okay nerf for its ranked and low elo performance without deleting it in high end play, but the changes to Elixir U and Photon Wall will now do exactly that.

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I would say one of the healthiest ways of going about reducing Rev's damage avoidance uptime would be to reduce the endurance gained from Riposting Shadows, or alternatively have it restore X amount per condition removed so it actually has a qualifier and isn't a guaranteed bonus. The legend does not need any energy cost increase or added cooldowns. The endurance gain from RS is a big part of what makes it so easy to chain evades in Shiro.

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@Mogwai.4015 said:I would say one of the healthiest ways of going about reducing Rev's damage avoidance uptime would be to reduce the endurance gained from Riposting Shadows, or alternatively have it restore X amount per condition removed so it actually has a qualifier and isn't a guaranteed bonus. The legend does not need any energy cost increase or added cooldowns. The endurance gain from RS is a big part of what makes it so easy to chain evades in Shiro.

I've done the math before and Riposting Shadows generates just as much endurance Warrior gets from Might Makes Right overtime, if we nerf RS, we nerf MMR also. This endurance generation is really obvious when Spellbreakers Tether also.

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@Flandre.2870 said:

if the holo nerfs go through, class stacking will be more prelevant than ever

Here's an idea I've been saying for years, how about they just lock in your class when you que for ranked. But you're still able to change your build on said class. This nonsense of playing chicken with seeing who can hard counter who with class swaps before the game starts is absurd.

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@Mogwai.4015 said:I would say one of the healthiest ways of going about reducing Rev's damage avoidance uptime would be to reduce the endurance gained from Riposting Shadows, or alternatively have it restore X amount per condition removed so it actually has a qualifier and isn't a guaranteed bonus. The legend does not need any energy cost increase or added cooldowns. The endurance gain from RS is a big part of what makes it so easy to chain evades in Shiro.

I agree to balance professions in pvp for a more fun game. But ... rev can not be offensive and defensive at the same time, RP was already 50% nerf along with 80% of other skills were nerfs, what the hell ... complain about evasion frames because a skilled player with rev He used exactly the skills he needed to use at the time it was necessary and you also want to punish him for that, play and test before throwing the professions underground, more specifically those that have 1 or 2 playable constructions in pvp. English is not my language, excuse me.

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@rev in love.8439 said:

@Mogwai.4015 said:I would say one of the healthiest ways of going about reducing Rev's damage avoidance uptime would be to reduce the endurance gained from Riposting Shadows, or alternatively have it restore X amount per condition removed so it actually has a qualifier and isn't a guaranteed bonus. The legend does
not
need any energy cost increase or added cooldowns. The endurance gain from RS is a big part of what makes it so easy to chain evades in Shiro.

I agree to balance professions in pvp for a more fun game. But ... rev can not be offensive and defensive at the same time, RP was already 50% nerf along with 80% of other skills were nerfs, what the hell ... complain about evasion frames because a skilled player with rev He used exactly the skills he needed to use at the time it was necessary and you also want to punish him for that, play and test before throwing the professions underground, more specifically those that have 1 or 2 playable constructions in pvp. English is not my language, excuse me.

This is exactly my point as well. Rev has great sustain if ur skilled and have the reaction timing to chain the right skills at the right time to use the evades. That's how it should be but gw2 players wouldn't recognize that as 90% of the game has been dumbed down and all they see is alot of evade up time. To them rev would be better with a few more op skills at a push of a button like invulnerability,blocks etc and not have the option to if skilled enough to chain so many evades lol slowly the players and the devs are stripping this game of any skillful out play potentials and replacing it with dumb down cheese bursts- present and future of gw2.

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@shadowpass.4236 said:@cmc

Don't forget about Lock On

  1. Two procs on the same trait that do NOT share the same cooldown
  2. 12 seconds of reveal
  3. 14 seconds of fury
  4. 20 stacks of vulnerability
  5. 25 second cooldown

Don't forget about Overcharged Shot

  1. No cast time
  2. Instant 450 range launch (long duration, hard CC) in melee range

Ty

nerfing rifle. sure buddy. compare the weapons on engi to any other class before you make that suggestion again.

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@azzardome.9184 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:@cmc

Don't forget about Lock On
  1. Two procs on the same trait that do NOT share the same cooldown
  2. 12 seconds of reveal
  3. 14 seconds of fury
  4. 20 stacks of vulnerability
  5. 25 second cooldown

Don't forget about Overcharged Shot
  1. No cast time
  2. Instant 450 range launch (long duration, hard CC) in melee range

Ty

nerfing rifle. sure buddy. compare the weapons on engi to any other class before you make that suggestion again.

Sure buddy.

In melee range:

Overcharged Shot - 450 range knockback,14s cooldown, no cast time

Point Blank Shot - 600 range knockback, 15s cooldown, 1/2s cast timeIllusionary Wave - 450 range knockback, 30s cooldown, 1/2s cast timeRifle Butt - 600 range knockback, 15s cooldown, 1/4s cast timeStaggering Blow - 180 range knockback, 18s cooldown, 1/2s cast timeCounterattack Kick - 130 range knockback, 15s cooldown, 3/4s cast time

etc. etc.

Overcharged Shot is the only knockback (a hard cc) that doesn't have an animation.

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@shadowpass.4236 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:@cmc

Don't forget about Lock On
  1. Two procs on the same trait that do NOT share the same cooldown
  2. 12 seconds of reveal
  3. 14 seconds of fury
  4. 20 stacks of vulnerability
  5. 25 second cooldown

Don't forget about Overcharged Shot
  1. No cast time
  2. Instant 450 range launch (long duration, hard CC) in melee range

Ty

nerfing rifle. sure buddy. compare the weapons on engi to any other class before you make that suggestion again.

Sure buddy.

In melee range:

- 450 range knockback,14s cooldown,
no cast time

- 600 range knockback, 15s cooldown,
1/2s cast time
- 450 range knockback, 30s cooldown,
1/2s cast time
- 600 range knockback, 15s cooldown,
1/4s cast time
- 180 range knockback, 18s cooldown,
1/2s cast time
- 130 range knockback, 15s cooldown,
3/4s cast time

etc. etc.

Overcharged Shot is the only knockback (a hard cc) that doesn't have an animation.

Launch is close enough.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Updraft

Counterattack kick cast time is lower than 3/4.

Guardian shield 5

But this all is only valuable in context. You can see the rifle projectile and dodge it regardless of cast time.

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@Ryan.9387 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:@cmc

Don't forget about Lock On
  1. Two procs on the same trait that do NOT share the same cooldown
  2. 12 seconds of reveal
  3. 14 seconds of fury
  4. 20 stacks of vulnerability
  5. 25 second cooldown

Don't forget about Overcharged Shot
  1. No cast time
  2. Instant 450 range launch (long duration, hard CC) in melee range

Ty

nerfing rifle. sure buddy. compare the weapons on engi to any other class before you make that suggestion again.

Sure buddy.

In melee range:

- 450 range knockback,14s cooldown,
no cast time

- 600 range knockback, 15s cooldown,
1/2s cast time
- 450 range knockback, 30s cooldown,
1/2s cast time
- 600 range knockback, 15s cooldown,
1/4s cast time
- 180 range knockback, 18s cooldown,
1/2s cast time
- 130 range knockback, 15s cooldown,
3/4s cast time

etc. etc.

Overcharged Shot is the only knockback (a hard cc) that doesn't have an animation.

Launch is close enough.

Counterattack kick cast time is lower than 3/4.

Guardian shield 5

But this all is only valuable in context.
You can see the rifle projectile and dodge it regardless of cast time.

Not if you're in melee or close to melee.

Also Launches are significantly more devastating than simple knockbacks. With a knockbacks you are able to move within a fraction of a second after you finish traveling. Blow outs take seconds to recover even after you are done traveling.

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Community: Nerf Weaver. It's clearly overperforming with its constant heals and evade spam

Anet: No prob bro I gotchu

Community: Daredevil is destroying 1v1s with it's constant evade spam

Anet: Daredevils only have 2 evades in PvP only. Vault evade reduced to 1/4 seconds.

Community: Wtf are you doing Anet. You nerfed two of the best duelists but left mesmer untouched and now nothing can touch them.

Anet: We're nerfing both pistol and greatsword.

Community: Fireb--

Anet: Nerfed.

Several months pass. . .

Community: What were you thinking Anet? Letting druids be this strong in pvp? they bunker a node for days, you can never catch them with all the stealth spam with CA and LB and the evade frames on Sword 2. Nerf it!

Several more months pass. . .

Community: What happened to this game? PvP used to take skill. I remember the days when a skilled player could 1v2 or even 1v3. Now everyone just runs in and spams their PvE rotation. It feels like the gap between a skilled player and unskilled player has only gotten smaller over time.

Wait... why does that last bit sound familiar?

Right, that's exactly what happened to WoW!

Be careful what you wish for.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Don't forget about Overcharged Shot
  1. No cast time
  2. Instant 450 range launch (long duration, hard CC) in melee range

Ty

nerfing rifle. sure buddy. compare the weapons on engi to any other class before you make that suggestion again.

Sure buddy.

In melee range:

- 450 range knockback,14s cooldown,
no cast time

- 600 range knockback, 15s cooldown,
1/2s cast time
- 450 range knockback, 30s cooldown,
1/2s cast time
- 600 range knockback, 15s cooldown,
1/4s cast time
- 180 range knockback, 18s cooldown,
1/2s cast time
- 130 range knockback, 15s cooldown,
3/4s cast time

etc. etc.

Overcharged Shot is the only knockback (a hard cc) that doesn't have an animation.

Launch is close enough.

Counterattack kick cast time is lower than 3/4.

Guardian shield 5

But this all is only valuable in context.
You can see the rifle projectile and dodge it regardless of cast time.

Not if you're in melee or close to melee.

Also Launches are significantly more devastating than simple knockbacks. With a knockbacks you are able to move within a fraction of a second after you finish traveling. Blow outs take seconds to recover even after you are done traveling.

yes. and overcharged shot is a launch, while those others are just knockbacks.It's probably allowed to be instant because it technically also CC's the user, though for a much shorter duration.

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@Trigr.6481 said:

@"Flandre.2870" said:

if the holo nerfs go through, class stacking will be more prelevant than ever

Here's an idea I've been saying for years, how about they just lock in your class when you que for ranked. But you're still able to change your build on said class. This nonsense of playing chicken with seeing who can hard counter who with class swaps before the game starts is absurd.

Noooooo, just hush, they'll tell you, the community voted for....

I think they talk about the 5% of the people in the game who connect to the forum...

And the new players they have the right to vote or not ??

For my part, even though I'm here since 2012, I've never seen a "vote" and I've never voted.

I ask for a new vote (even if I'm abusing myself and I change my class everytime when it's 20 secs :p)

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@Falan.1839 said:^ this. This guy here has abused pretty much every cancerous thing in the last metas during the recent mATs, you can safely assume he understands it.

Not just in the recent mAT's, I watched his exploits for a long time, he already abused every cancerous build in the game for years :D and you know what ? he's right and smart.

Not his fault if it take @net decades to balance their game.

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@"shadowpass.4236" said:

Sure buddy.

In melee range:

Overcharged Shot - 450 range knockback,14s cooldown, no cast time

Point Blank Shot - 600 range knockback, 15s cooldown, 1/2s cast timeIllusionary Wave - 450 range knockback, 30s cooldown, 1/2s cast timeRifle Butt - 600 range knockback, 15s cooldown, 1/4s cast timeStaggering Blow - 180 range knockback, 18s cooldown, 1/2s cast timeCounterattack Kick - 130 range knockback, 15s cooldown, 3/4s cast time

etc. etc.

Overcharged Shot is the only knockback (a hard cc) that doesn't have an animation.

Are you forgetting a dew details?

Like number of targets? AoE? Penalties? Cherry-picking data isn't going to convince anyone who doesn't already agree with you.

Overcharged shot can only launch one target in front of the player and has a self-inflicted penalty. Rifle butt, for example, can hit three targets. Illusionary wave can hit five, as can staggering blow. Counterattack kick can hit three targets and includes evade frames.

And before you start griping about "holo has all this stability," don't forget that they're nerfing access to stability (again), and that rifle is a core engineer weapon.

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Thing is these holo nerfs are not that bad compared to what was done to some of the other professions.

I say deal with it holo will still be mostly a high damage low risk elite spec overall until the heat cost or passive heat generation on photon forge is increased holo is going to be strong af. Over worrying about holo nerfs is totally pointless your spec will be fine lets not pretend it wont be.

Alot of other specs are going to survive against revs and other insane meta things with much less than holo has so just deal lol.

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@Vagrant.7206 said:

@"shadowpass.4236" said:

Sure buddy.

In melee range:

- 450 range knockback,14s cooldown,
no cast time

- 600 range knockback, 15s cooldown,
1/2s cast time
- 450 range knockback, 30s cooldown,
1/2s cast time
- 600 range knockback, 15s cooldown,
1/4s cast time
- 180 range knockback, 18s cooldown,
1/2s cast time
- 130 range knockback, 15s cooldown,
3/4s cast time

etc. etc.

Overcharged Shot is the only knockback (a hard cc) that doesn't have an animation.

Are you forgetting a dew details?

Like number of targets? AoE? Penalties? Cherry-picking data isn't going to convince anyone who doesn't already agree with you.

Overcharged shot can only launch
one target
in front of the player and has a self-inflicted penalty. Rifle butt, for example, can hit three targets. Illusionary wave can hit five, as can staggering blow. Counterattack kick can hit three targets and includes evade frames.

And before you start griping about "holo has all this stability," don't forget that they're nerfing access to stability (again), and that rifle is a
core
engineer weapon.

those few details dont outweight the positives by a MILE.its not 10-15% dmg or range difference its triple damage, and triple range.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"shadowpass.4236" said:

Sure buddy.

In melee range:

- 450 range knockback,14s cooldown,
no cast time

- 600 range knockback, 15s cooldown,
1/2s cast time
- 450 range knockback, 30s cooldown,
1/2s cast time
- 600 range knockback, 15s cooldown,
1/4s cast time
- 180 range knockback, 18s cooldown,
1/2s cast time
- 130 range knockback, 15s cooldown,
3/4s cast time

etc. etc.

Overcharged Shot is the only knockback (a hard cc) that doesn't have an animation.

Are you forgetting a dew details?

Like number of targets? AoE? Penalties? Cherry-picking data isn't going to convince anyone who doesn't already agree with you.

Overcharged shot can only launch
one target
in front of the player and has a self-inflicted penalty. Rifle butt, for example, can hit three targets. Illusionary wave can hit five, as can staggering blow. Counterattack kick can hit three targets and includes evade frames.

And before you start griping about "holo has all this stability," don't forget that they're nerfing access to stability (again), and that rifle is a
core
engineer weapon.

those few details dont outweight the positives by a MILE.its not 10-15% dmg or range difference its triple damage, and triple range.

They do though. The self-CC is a very relevant part of the skill and is probably the reason why it is allowed to be instant. There are many situations where OC shot hurts the engi more than it helps:

  • If your opponent predicts it and pops reflect, you end up double-CC-ing yourself.
  • If your opponent has a passive CC cancel, you end up CC-ing yourself while not CC-ing them.
  • If you are in a 1v2, you may CC one of the players, but the other will jump on you while you're self-CCd

Now, most holosmiths will avoid this by combining it with a stability skill to negate the self-CC. I personally don't think this should work, but even still. It's using 2 skills to achieve 1 CC. That no longer makes it an instant CC since you need to use another skill (most with their own cast times) first in order to prevent the self-knockback.

Back when I used to run core rifle engi, I would have gladly traded all of Overcharged Shot's damage, half its range, and even added a small cast time if it meant avoiding the self-knockback.

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@Vagrant.7206 said:

@"shadowpass.4236" said:

Sure buddy.

In melee range:

- 450 range knockback,14s cooldown,
no cast time

- 600 range knockback, 15s cooldown,
1/2s cast time
- 450 range knockback, 30s cooldown,
1/2s cast time
- 600 range knockback, 15s cooldown,
1/4s cast time
- 180 range knockback, 18s cooldown,
1/2s cast time
- 130 range knockback, 15s cooldown,
3/4s cast time

etc. etc.

Overcharged Shot is the only knockback (a hard cc) that doesn't have an animation.

Are you forgetting a dew details?

Like number of targets? AoE? Penalties? Cherry-picking data isn't going to convince anyone who doesn't already agree with you.

Overcharged shot can only launch
one target
in front of the player and has a self-inflicted penalty. Rifle butt, for example, can hit three targets. Illusionary wave can hit five, as can staggering blow. Counterattack kick can hit three targets and includes evade frames.

And before you start griping about "holo has all this stability," don't forget that they're nerfing access to stability (again), and that rifle is a
core
engineer weapon.

It's an instant cast hard cc in melee range. It can also cc people from range as well.

But, the INSTANT CAST HARD CC is the important thing that you people are trying to draw attention away from.

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