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Conditions and some words about them


Zexanima.7851

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@Zexanima.7851 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:there are literarly 2-3 viable condi builds in pvp.1 cmirage2 core necroand 3 weaver.honorable mention c thief?meanwhile there is 10+ power builds, take your condi hate away.I 100% disagree with everything but burning, but its class specific.

I don't have enough cleanses to remove the hate
, so have some more. It really isn't necessary for PvP. You can tell by the lack of heavy use of DoT skills in
most
other PvP games. They do exist, but nothing to the extent of what GW2 boasts. The only "condi" builds there should be are hybrid builds at best. With anet and how they balance PvP it either ends up being OP or useless, I would rather it just be useless and go full tilt into power.

removing condi will just make revenant and other anti power builds kitten disgustingly broken, but I guess that is what happens when people that are incapable of looking 1 step forward wanna make changes.If that happens we would see monkey warriors facetank power dmg for days, clowns running full toughtness sets with perma prot taking no damage, FuN

TLDRcondi is kinda annoying me so I want it gone, OpS balance even more broken, now time to nerf half the kitten roster becouse their counters got deleted.

but I guess that is what happens when people that are incapable of looking 1 step forward wanna make changes.but I guess that is what happens when people that are incapable of looking 1 step forward wanna make changes.but I guess that is what happens when people that are incapable of looking 1 step forward wanna make changes.but I guess that is what happens when people that are incapable of looking 1 step forward wanna make changes.

Oh by golly gee, you sure got me there!....keep your passive aggressive comments at home. PvP is toxic enough without them.

Seriously though, I have not said nor been suggesting power is A-Okay and needs no changes. If you did reduce condi's prevalence there would obviously have to be other changes. You're throwing out this what-about-ism with power but that's not what I'm addressing here. I dislike playing against condi so I'm addressing condi. This isn't a "how to balance and fix all PvP" thread.

Its an useless whiny thread, so I treat it as such, I find CC annoying, lets remove 70% CC from the game, nevermind that its stronger against some classes more then others, doesnt matter, as long as it annoys ME less.I Dont care that It will require to balance all the classes again, it annoys ME less.

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@Axl.8924 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:Fire Weaver, condi-Firebrand, and condi-DrD (more so before nerfs) are emblematic of bursty condi application while having very strong sustain. Rather than nerf conditions across the board, just focus on these overtuned builds.

They can but it will just be a matter of time until something else's condi is buffed into the same state. They should really come up with some over arching metrics and limits around how much of something a profession can do and how often and make sure to keep each profession under a threshold.
Same goes for power
Some people seem to be irked if I don't mention power in equal part

I think Zdragon hit the nail on the head, and that is fixing the condi applications of these offenders rather than mass nerfs, and making so you aren't necessarily 100% unable to do anything about it helpless. Like if a class dazes and stuns you and puts 15 burns on you and instantly melts you, to me thats not good, perhaps without those 15 burns it would be ok like 3-4 burns at once but not 15.

I disagree, If a power spec can stun me, and down me before stun ends, then there is NO reason for condi spec to be unable to apply enough condi to down somebody.3-4 burs would deal 6-10k dmg, this is the range of 1 highrolled power hit.Lets have theoretical scenarion.1 Warrior bullscharges into you, you cant remove CC. He follows up with Arcing and hundred blades -> how much damage should this reasonably do ?2 Cmirage hits you with magic bullet, you cant remove CC. He follows up with p4 into scepter 3 and shatters -> how much worth of condi should that do?

Becouse RN warrior will hit 5k BC -> 6k arcing, and 5k+ blades.Cmirage would land 200 dmg p5, 2k p4, 2k scept 3, and leave you with 8k bleed and confusion.

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@Zexanima.7851 said:

@SeikeNz.3526 said:LOL PEOPLE COMPLAINJ ABOUT CONDI DAMAGE WHILE POWER PLAYERS ARE DOING 20k PER HIT WITH WARRIORS/RANGERS/HOLOS

I never said power wasn't also broken but I find condi more annoying so that's what I'm addressing here.

i don't see how having a chance to fight back and clean everything is annoying, annoying to me is not having a chance to fight back

That's just my point, you don't really have anymore of a chance to fight back than with those power builds. Instead of being "Bang" -dead from a rifle warrior one shooting you; you get covered, cleanse, get covered, cleanse, get covered
"you are out of cleanses"
and end up hobbling around in slow motion while your face melts in <2 seconds. It's my opinion anyways, I'm not trying to convince you one way or the other.

the problem isn't condi, the problem are some classes that can apply 5 stacks of burn + 10 types of condi in one hit, now if you get 10 stacks of burn plus 10 types of condi in alot of hits then not is wrong with that, because you received alot of hits to stack it.now if you have 20 stacks of confusion or torment on you it's your fault because mesmers need alot of hits to stack like that.they nerfed thiefs on this patch because of one hit and 10 stacks of poison what is a good thing, now they need to nerf firebrand and fireweaver but they need to prior power users since they are way more overpowered

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Mirage clones need a nerf on their stacking capabilities when using Infinite Horizon.

You want to dodge the biggest offenders, and cleanse only to nullify the biggest bursts or when you trip up - this is what people forget, you can dodge against non-power specs aswell and they will land nothing.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:Fire Weaver, condi-Firebrand, and condi-DrD (more so before nerfs) are emblematic of bursty condi application while having very strong sustain. Rather than nerf conditions across the board, just focus on these overtuned builds.

They can but it will just be a matter of time until something else's condi is buffed into the same state. They should really come up with some over arching metrics and limits around how much of something a profession can do and how often and make sure to keep each profession under a threshold.
Same goes for power
Some people seem to be irked if I don't mention power in equal part

I think Zdragon hit the nail on the head, and that is fixing the condi applications of these offenders rather than mass nerfs, and making so you aren't necessarily 100% unable to do anything about it helpless. Like if a class dazes and stuns you and puts 15 burns on you and instantly melts you, to me thats not good, perhaps without those 15 burns it would be ok like 3-4 burns at once but not 15.

I disagree, If a power spec can stun me, and down me before stun ends, then there is NO reason for condi spec to be unable to apply enough condi to down somebody.3-4 burs would deal 6-10k dmg, this is the range of 1 highrolled power hit.Lets have theoretical scenarion.1 Warrior bullscharges into you, you cant remove CC. He follows up with Arcing and hundred blades -> how much damage should this reasonably do ?2 Cmirage hits you with magic bullet, you cant remove CC. He follows up with p4 into scepter 3 and shatters -> how much worth of condi should that do?

Because RN warrior will hit 5k BC -> 6k arcing, and 5k+ blades.Cmirage would land 200 dmg p5, 2k p4, 2k scept 3, and leave you with 8k bleed and confusion.

I think it depends.

I have seen some really cool fights regarding thieves dancing around evading and trying to time their hits to not be killed as they have to in order to get close enough to deal damage, you have to be skillful and mindful of your surroundings and such and that's good I think.

What I think most people have a problem and me included, is when out of nowhere you are invisible and stun and one-hit kills people or have a long-ranged attack that cannot be detected with tons of cc attached that are considered unfair and unfun to deal with, and massive damage. There are some classes you get killed you might think oh well I probably could have done better, or for sure I could have been better.

I get the feeling you are on the defensive because a lot of these pertain to mesmers, but some also to thief admittedly and etc, etc.

I think we could arguably give better tells limit cheap invis stun one-hit KO farming potentials with massive amounts of condi that murders you with 20 torments 20 confusions and just pukes out every cc imaginable in 1 ability.

I personally would like to see for instance if they limit these at least in pvp if we can go without having caps because i fear that these caps things others have asked for will nerf condi too much, some of this could devastatingly crush necro as boon corrupts have condis. scourge deserves a little of what it got but core does not in my opinion as i don't think it's as overpowered in boon corrupt or condi.

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@ZDragon.3046 said:To be honest that was just a quick idea but probably not the best one, but i see what you mean the issue is more player A melting player B quicker than power build Player C can nuke Player B when anet said conditions are explicitly not suppose to work that way.I feel you're purposefully being obtuse here since this is not what I meant at all and you've somehow changed this it fit your agenda. What I actually meant, which I felt was pretty clear, was that if player A put 10 stacks of something on player B then player C's attacks do nothing, completely preventing player interaction.

I mentioned fire weaver as an example but you can also look at poison thief or staff mirage before the nerfs if you like, heck even firebrand. Weaver is probably one of my least concerning elites when it comes to looking at the annoyance of conditions.This is the point I am making right here. You attempt to say condi is OP and list the current overtuned builds as an example as to why this is the case.

As far as condi engi, warrior, ranger and rev (which they all do have builds some which solid believe it or not) are not complained about because they dont instantly melt you after landing afew taps and are not as safe while applying their conditions or their applications have very blunt down times in which if you evade or clense burst you have ample time combat them.There are reasons why those builds are not complained about because they are seen as more balanced properly than some of the other major offenders (most of which are just too safe for the damage they deal)

The reason those builds are not complained about is because they are not competitive and are relatively weak, not balanced.

dont say conditions are weak just because people run cleanses that makes no sense.Everyone runs a generous amount of cleanse because they dont want to be instantly melted if they happen to take a few hits but those few hits applied 10 burn or some how you ended up with 22 confusion 15 torment etc.

Again not what i am saying..not only is the another case in point as a direct reference to mirage and fire weaver being an issue and not conditions overall, it leads to the point I stated which as much as you want to dismiss it still holds true. Cleanse is so high that unless your build has a lot of condition coverage/ variety or high application you will be pretty much irrelevant. This is why you dont see any besides the 3~4 that are casuing all condi to be OP apparently.

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Condi is/was a big deal for many people because the amaunt of skills that did conditions and the condition rate of the skills is high, But in the year 2019 there are just more Condi cleanse than enaugh and we have far more than that, dodges, skills with dodges, skills with blocks, wasd (imagine you can move your character out of aoe condis).

In case of burn, burn was since always the hardest condition and when I remember back to vanilla to all this burn guards, they did mostly the same than the weavers now days, it ticks hard but you know its coming and you can prepare.

Of course power is strong too, but you don't need to kite and do much else to denie the dmg that comes.

Condi is a bit of a mess state, in my opinion it's easy to deal with condis, but on lower ranks most guys does not know how to handle and say it is op.

I am not that good player but I can for sure say condi wars is since a long time over and some of them are annoying but not really op or gamebreaking.

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It's no issue for higher skill play, and that's where you balance so you have everyone reaching the same ceiling. Some builds stack a bit too quickly I agree but there's already a crazy amount of passive and manual cleanse. If you made that many changes you would have to redo nearly every talents/build, then there would be a complaint about something else. I don't think it's a big issue at all, maybe for people who need to get more experience and are running sub optimal set-ups.

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The main issue with conditions is that you get multiple stacked on you every time and the way they are applied. Most come from large pulsing AOE or range attacks or the passive ones where you dodge but next attack applies them anyway. By themselves each and every condition is ok the issue is when they get combined for example confusion and torment, you can't cast you can't move, they come in as both cc and a damage source and here soft cc is way more dangerous than hard cc, a cripple lasts way longer and once its applied can be reapplied.Also tells on condition attacks are terrible like all range tells in the game, no one is able to tell the difference between shaking your little hand little bit to the left or little bit to the right. If the telegraphs felt weighty and were actual telegraphs it would be one idea less annoying to deal with conditions.

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There is a easy solution to condition damage. Split their damage into Condition Damage/Ferocity/Precision like Power Damage is. Boom now Condition Damage builds also have to choose between tanky or bursty. I mean if Condition specs are going to have the same benifits to Power specs. Than they need to also incur the same weakness.

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@Fueki.4753 said:

@Despond.2174 said:It's no issue for higher skill play, and that's where you balance

Why would you balance around a minority of outliers that will manage in any situation anyway?It makes significantly more sense to balance around the median where most players are, so it's becomes for fair for as much people as possible.

If you balance a game not for the best players, more for the mijority of the players, you will get a lot more of abuse from high tier player.

And you can be say for sure that the game is balanced. Players under the top tier player can't say it's imbalanced or not, because if they are not using the ways that are open for them, is it not the balance fault.

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It doesn't make sense why power is always mentioned in condi complaints. If you feel like power damage is high, then create a thread about it! Power creep is real. Both types can be busted at the same time!

On other games, dots are over time. Not burst oriented. CC is controlled by a bar. A character can't be stun locked without consequence and creating CC immunity for the next few seconds. It prevents enemies from just spamming kitten. Just play that game? No, the point is, those mechanics were solely created to encourage better game play. It doesn't have to be game specific.

Firebrand /Fire Weaver/ Scourge/ Condi thief / Mirage all had their hay-day of condi burst. Some nerfed already. Some still needing nerfs. I've even seen burst condi Rangers and Engi's. Condi isn't just a problem for a certain class. If one class gets nerfed, another cancer is just gonna pop up somewhere else. The sole problem is condi, how it deals damage, how it's applied, and how you stat for it

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@Dawdler.8521 said:Do people know why condition builds are strong?

Because they counter the meta glassy power builds that skip cleansing in favor of burst.

That usually tells you everything you need to know.

If you build heavy into cleanse then you're damage isn't enough to kill the tanky condi builds. Those tanky condi builds don't have to sacrifice their damage for survivability. They can both be offensive and defensive at the same time where with power you have to open yourself up to counter pressure in order to pressure someone.

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what I would do

is make all conditions take much longer to do their damage, and shift cleanses into duration reductions

another problem with condi vs cleanse is that it's very all or nothing. too much cleanse and people take no damage at all. not enough cleanse and they just get destroyed. This would help in that regard.

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@Zexanima.7851 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:Fire Weaver, condi-Firebrand, and condi-DrD (more so before nerfs) are emblematic of bursty condi application while having very strong sustain. Rather than nerf conditions across the board, just focus on these overtuned builds.

They can but it will just be a matter of time until something else's condi is buffed into the same state. They should really come up with some over arching metrics and limits around how much of something a profession can do and how often and make sure to keep each profession under a threshold.
Same goes for power
Some people seem to be irked if I don't mention power in equal part

If they're trying to reduce the global power level as they've said in recent discussions, buffs should really be happening minimally if at all. Regarding condi, they just need to bring everything in line with a DOT paradigm. That means no more being insta-melted by FB and Weaver bursts (condi thief has already been addressed). For true DOT condi builds to be viable though, cleanse will definitely need reduction as well, as it is currently balanced towards existing condi levels.

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@Zexanima.7851 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:Do people know why condition builds are strong?

Because they counter the meta glassy power builds that skip cleansing in favor of burst.

That usually tells you everything you need to know.

If you build heavy into cleanse then you're damage isn't enough to kill the tanky condi builds. Those tanky condi builds don't have to sacrifice their damage for survivability. They can both be offensive and defensive at the same time where with power you have to open yourself up to counter pressure in order to pressure someone.

I wish this was true.

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@reikken.4961 said:what I would do

is make all conditions take much longer to do their damage, and shift cleanses into duration reductions

another problem with condi vs cleanse is that it's very all or nothing. too much cleanse and people take no damage at all. not enough cleanse and they just get destroyed. This would help in that regard.

This. +1

There's too many absolutes in this game, and its not just cleanses, its blocks, evades, Blinds, etc. Pretty much anything that you use in the game is not only guaranteed (save for a few mechanics like Unblockable), but has an effect of 100%. and that's where it goes wrong.

For balance to ever be achieved, everything has to be relative, not absolute.

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