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Which class dies the most in world vs world?


grave of hearts.7830

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So what are you focusing?

Minstrel Guardians with their blocks?Minstrel Engi with their stealth?Warriors or Mirages that can't be hurt for like 20 years?Thieves with stealth?Revs with their absorb?

This really only leaves rangers, eles, and necros. Rangers still have a signet of stone, decent sustain, and 2 swoops. Though I suppose a poor ranger is an easy target. Eles are the squishiest, but Ele players are generally better due to survival of the fittest-- simply because they are forced to learn their class to get it functional at all and are punished for everything. That pretty much leaves necros with the lack of mobility, invuls, and general weakness to focus.

And for some comedy, here's what I have for my characters. (Granted, all it really shows is that I get really stupid on warrior) Also numbers bloated by /gg'ing in pve. But then again I afk a lot so that balances out.

Deaths (deaths/hours)Guardian 3882/3117 =1.24 deaths/hrEngineer 1524/1424 = 1.07 deaths/hrNecro 1028/1018 = 1.01 deaths/hrEle 469/660 = 0.71 deaths/hr (although most of it was spent playing healing tempest...)Ranger 531/437 = 1.21 deaths/hrRevenant 809/412 = 1.96 deaths/hr (yikes!)Thief 359/381 =0.94 deaths/hrMesmer 264/280 = 0.94 deaths/hrWarrior 309/178 = 1.73 deaths/hr

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To answer this we have to both look at the ubiquity of the class as well as its available escape and defensive options. When we take into consideration just how numerous the necromancer is in zergs and that they lack defenses and have no ability to escape they are an easy pick as the most killed class. Guardian is extremely defensive in spite of its evenish numbers with necro it has fewer flaws to concern itself with.

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@Sobx.1758 said:

@"Justine.6351" said:Idk really, the answer varies wildly for different reasons.

No it doesnt necro has the worst survivability since ever and anet does nothing about this.

It doesn't, but good job playing a victim :D

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/So-ArenaNet-when-do-you-guys-going-to-give-some-Necro-love

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/747/necromancers-depth/p1

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Anet-s-love

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/My-most-beloved-Nekro-was-a-Dissapointment-Why

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/PvP-combat-log-Necro-vs-Thief-in-WvWvW

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/The-necro-still-needs-a-lot-of-love

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Rerolling-and-this-is-why-constructive-thread

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/89323/message-to-anet-balance-team-regarding-necro

'Necromancer Profession are not playing the victim. In fact, Necromancer Profession are a victim of their design'

-we have no control of our design and our circumstances. We are design this way... to be the The Punching Bag Profession-

so we are the first one to be targeted and are the first one to die

so much for playing the victim right :(

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@Burnfall.9573 said:

@"Justine.6351" said:Idk really, the answer varies wildly for different reasons.

No it doesnt necro has the worst survivability since ever and anet does nothing about this.

It doesn't, but good job playing a victim :D

'Necromancer Profession are not playing the victim. In fact, Necromancer Profession are a victim of their design'

What exactly are you trying to prove by linking threads of victim-playing necromancer mains crying on the forum? And the threads from 2012 lmao.

Apparently if I link x threads from any profession's subforum about how the class is underpowered, constantly nerfed or oppressed, it makes the statement of the class being "a victim of their design" true and automatically makes them die the most in wvw. Hilarious logic.

-we have no control of our design and our circumstances. We are design this way... to be the The Punching Bag Profession-

And which class has "control of their design"? What do you even mean by that?

so we are the first one to be targeted and are the first one to die

?

How exactly did you get from linking random tear-filled threads from 2012 to "we're first one to be targeted and first one to die"?

so much for playing the victim right :(

Yup, you're clearly still playing a victim.

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@"Clownmug.8357" said:In solo/smallscale fights I think the only necro build that really poses a threat would be core condition. Most run stuff like power Reaper or some form of minion master though, so they're usually a free kill.

"Usually"

Glad ya said that, guildie of mine runs DPS Reaper as a co main in WvW and he's a frigging beast with that spin to win. No minions and watched him duel...def not a free kill (as long as he brings his A game ofc, like with anyone else with a non cheese build)

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@Sobx.1758 said:

@"Justine.6351" said:Idk really, the answer varies wildly for different reasons.

No it doesnt necro has the worst survivability since ever and anet does nothing about this.

It doesn't, but good job playing a victim :D

'Necromancer Profession are not playing the victim. In fact, Necromancer Profession are a victim of their design'

What exactly are you trying to prove by linking threads of victim-playing necromancer mains crying on the forum? And the threads from 2012 lmao.

Apparently if I link x threads from any profession's subforum about how the class is underpowered, constantly nerfed or oppressed, it makes the statement of the class being "a victim of their design" true and automatically makes them die the most in wvw. Hilarious logic.

-we have no control of our design and our circumstances. We are design this way... to be the The Punching Bag Profession-

And which class has "control of their design"? What do you even mean by that?

so we are the first one to be targeted and are the first one to die

?

How exactly did you get from linking random tear-filled threads from 2012 to "we're first one to be targeted and first one to die"?

so much for playing the victim right :(

Yup, you're clearly still playing a victim.

I personally don't take a victim mentality when talking about the necromancer. That would suggest Arena net devs have a vendetta against the necromancer which I don't believe. Personally, I belief the poor balance of the necromancer is a combination of factors. A Dual philosophy of the class's design and a player base who doesn't understand the importance the necromancer has to a healthy meta game.

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This poll is rather ambiguous.If the classes were balanced in population then there would be a different consensus.Neco /scourge generally out populate other classes so yes they will die the most. Does it mean that necro is weak surviving? No not if they are traited accordingly . The current Meta necro/scourge is traited for high damage and not defence.So you have a class that in many cases can be well over 50% of the zerg with poor self defence. What do you think is going to happen?The guardian / firebrand and Reverent/ herald carry the necro in WvW . So out side the blob, the current meta necro is defense weak .Change the boon spam from firebrand and herald and force necros to be more self reliant which will of course reduce output damage and there will be less necro deaths. This will also promote more class diversity .Are Necro/scourge victimized? That's a laugh.
Are these polls biased and dumb ? I vote yes.

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@Lily.1935 said:I personally don't take a victim mentality when talking about the necromancer.

Maybe you don't, but some people on this forum clearly do.

the poor balance of the necromancer is a combination of factors. A Dual philosophy of the class's design and a player base who doesn't understand the importance the necromancer has to a healthy meta game.

What do you mean by that?

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@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lily.1935 said:I personally don't take a victim mentality when talking about the necromancer.

Maybe you don't, but some people on this forum clearly do.

the poor balance of the necromancer is a combination of factors. A Dual philosophy of the class's design and a player base who doesn't understand the importance the necromancer has to a healthy meta game.

What do you mean by that?

exactly what Lily said.

Necromancer Profession constantly always in need to prove themselves and as a result, be be held accountable for defending themselves

Lily, no matter what, we are always proven Guilty no matter what

don't bother answering anymore

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@Sobx.1758 said:

@Lily.1935 said:I personally don't take a victim mentality when talking about the necromancer.

Maybe you don't, but some people on this forum clearly do.

the poor balance of the necromancer is a combination of factors. A Dual philosophy of the class's design and a player base who doesn't understand the importance the necromancer has to a healthy meta game.

What do you mean by that?

Its actually something I talk about a lot on the necromancer forums. But I'll elaborate on these two points, although since I'm on my phone I'll unfortunately have to leave out some bits. In the future I may make a post on the theory in the profession forums to explain the necromancer's importance and why classes like it need to exist in MMOs but for now I'll try and simplify it.

When I say a Duel philosophy I mean that the necromancer is a high concept class with a shallow learning curve and skill cap. The necromancer is both supposed to be the a meta foil but also supposed to be an easy class to pick up and learn for beginners. The idea of a meta foil is a high concept as something new players shouldn't be expected to grasp right away but learn about as they become more familiar with the game and its meta.

So what is a foil when talking about games? A foil is a class, character, build or deck designed to break combos and popular meta picks. Foils are at their best in a stable meta game where the best sets or builds are known. Foils are supposed to make you think harder about how you're going to engage with your opponents. When to unload and when to hold back. And a foil is looking to abuse your weakness. Foils keep a meta from devolving into a more battle cruiser meta. They keep the top builds in check so that off meta builds can compete. If the foils of a game are not up to this task then the builds that are overwhelming will either stagnate the meta game or will be forced to be nerfed. And when foils themselves get nerfed, which sometimes its required they do, it can have dire consequences for the diversity of the game.

As a consequence of this Foils are not fun to play against. They are miserable to fight and at times you can feel that you are being dragged through a slow inevitable death. They not only tax your resources but your patience as well. Because of this the foil is looked at as a scourge[pun intended] on the meta even though that is their job. They are the control players, the counter picks, the necromancer's. Most players will see a foil and have this knee jerk reaction to them without understanding the context of why they are in the game and how they promote health of the game.

Now, the necromancer isn't the only foil in GW2. However it has been the most effective. Mesmers are supposed to be a foil as well yet they've shifted away from that over the years into more battle cruiser. Warrior is a battle cruiser class with Spellbreaker which makes it an odd foil as it doesn't act like a proper foil as its going to crush you quickly which foils traditionally don't do unless the mistakes of their foes give them the openings to do so.

Foils in a group are backline debuffers and supporters and in a one on one they are attrisive and reactive as opposed to proactive. The mesmer is supposed to fill this role as well however they can't quite do it to the same extent the necromancer does.

As I mentioned above though, this is a high concept style of class yet the design of the class is counter to that with it's easy to pick up and play philosophy. The warrior, ranger and guardian should be easy to pick up and play. The necromancer is too so at low skill play it's high concept style of fighting gets pushed onto new players who feel cheated by a class that has defenses that reward passivity while at the same time haphazardly throws out near random punishment to new players without them understand why this is. A foil shouldn't be so easy to use and because it is it's high concept style of play gets pushed on players struggling to learn the game, forcing bad feelings. Necromancer tends to be extremely good at low end play but because of its overly simple defenses as just a damage sponge and its punishing skills it has gained both a reputation for being an unfun class to fight and busted by players who don't know better. But Because of this its tools leave it to vulnerable in high end competitive play where the necromancer's design is highly needed.

All of this leads to very poor balance for a class that should have never been Designed with beginners in mind.

I really hope this makes sense.... I've been typing this out while on shift at work.

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@"Burnfall.9573" said:Necromancer Profession constantly always in need to prove themselves and as a result, be be held accountable for defending themselves

What? You're literally THE person that goes around this forum and spams his nonsense attacking other classes in multliple subforums, it has nothing to do with "needing to prove yourself, being held accountable and defending yourself". You're lying about what you constantly do on this forum.

Lily, no matter what, we are always proven Guilty no matter what

...and then without skipping a bit you have the audacity to play a victim without actually saying anything of substance in your whole post.


@Lily.1935 thanks for the explanation. I've read your post and I think I can't fully agree with parts of the point you make (or at least what I think are the points you make), but I'll comment on that tomorrow :D

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@Burnfall.9573 said:

@Lily.1935 said:I personally don't take a victim mentality when talking about the necromancer.

Maybe you don't, but some people on this forum clearly do.

the poor balance of the necromancer is a combination of factors. A Dual philosophy of the class's design and a player base who doesn't understand the importance the necromancer has to a healthy meta game.

What do you mean by that?

exactly what Lily said.

Necromancer Profession constantly always in need to prove themselves and as a result, be be held accountable for defending themselves

Lily, no matter what, we are always proven Guilty no matter what

don't bother answering anymore

I'm more interested in the theory behind the balance and how to make the game the best it can be. And my class is necromancer so I'm especially invested in that. I'll answer other people because I'm passionate about this game and I want to promote better understanding without smears.

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@Sobx.1758 said:

@"Burnfall.9573" said:Necromancer Profession constantly always in need to prove themselves and as a result, be be held accountable for defending themselves

What? You're literally THE person that goes around this forum and spams his nonsense attacking other classes in multliple subforums, it has nothing to do with "needing to prove yourself, being held accountable and defending yourself". You're lying about what you constantly do on this forum.

Lily, no matter what, we are always proven Guilty no matter what

...and then without skipping a bit you have the audacity to play a victim without actually saying anything of substance in your whole post.

Lmao burnfall literally just played the victim. These forums...

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Although I would vote Necromancer as well, I just want to chime in with my usual advice when it comes to survival and Necromancer;

  1. Your head needs to be on a swivel. Although this should be common practice for everyone, regardless of class or build, it is especially important for Necro. Spam your "look behind" key.

  2. Have an acute awareness of zerg "flow." This means being able to pick up on where your own zerg is going to move and where the enemy zerg is going to move with the slightest gesture. You always need to be on point with your positioning because something as small as 5 seconds of Cripple can mean your death.

  3. You have health, not defense. This isn't entirely true, you do have defenses in different forms, but the point is that Necro doesn't have blocks, invulnerability, extra dodges, etc. Remember not to over extend and always think twice before you forfeit your position - hills and places that people cannot teleport ( Shadowstep, etc. ) to are good places to linger on.

  4. If you've been separated from your group, sometimes it's better to take the long way back. For example, you're in a large scale fight and you've been pushed apart from your zerg for one reason or another, it might be better to hang back for a moment or wait until you're OOC so you can Mount up before you attempt to regroup. The faster the enemy group loses sight of you the faster they'll forget about you. If you put yourself in the open field trying to run back to your group, you're probably going to get sniped.

  5. Zoning is one of Necro's biggest strengths. Make people come to you. Talking solo or small scale here, if you find yourself outnumbered or being focused, remember to always be looking for places that will force your enemy to over extend. Stand on narrow ledges, hop around hills, etc. Similar to what I'd said in point .3, look for places people can't teleport to you and force anyone who wants you dead to eat your cleave and AOE's. Necro is weakest in an open field alone so you want to avoid situations like that as best you can.

Many of these points can apply to any class or build, but they're most important for Necro for many of the reasons I've listed here, and for reasons others have stated in this thread.

Necro is far from defenseless. But unlike many of the other classes, it is extremely unforgiving of mistakes despite it's significant health pool. It can be difficult to recover from damage with most common builds and not paying attention for only a moment is likely to mean death.

As a long time Necro main, I still think the class is quite strong, and in the case of core Necromancer and Reaper, I think balance-wise it's in a good place. It just takes a different perspective to survive with it than what's needed for most of the other classes.

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