WvW post sand savant nerf

[Straegen.2938]

@subversiontwo.7501 said:

@Straegen said:Scourge is still the most efficient ground AoE spam class in the game so not much changed. They went from dominant large scale OP to dominant large scale OP.That could be all good and well though. Something has to be the best at something and the role of Necromancers have always been to be the most efficient ranged ground target class or ranged ripping class. Like you say, dominant is not a problem, OP is a problem. Classes or their roles don't have to be dragged down into nothing to achieve a tolerable balance. They just have to make room for other classes to do other things.

No non-rooted ranged AoE should be out damaging melee damage ever... period... should not happen. The design of a game that rewards ranged play with a greater number of targets, higher damage and far greater DPS while remaining mobile is flawed. Every ranged AoE in the game should root the caster for the duration of the cast or its damage should be halved.

I have the same opinion about invuln (should root the player) and stealthed players should be moving half speed.

[God.2708]

@Straegen.2938 said:

@subversiontwo.7501 said:

@Straegen said:Scourge is still the most efficient ground AoE spam class in the game so not much changed. They went from dominant large scale OP to dominant large scale OP.That could be all good and well though. Something has to be the best at something and the role of Necromancers have always been to be the most efficient ranged ground target class or ranged ripping class. Like you say, dominant is not a problem, OP is a problem. Classes or their roles don't have to be dragged down into nothing to achieve a tolerable balance. They just have to make room for other classes to do other things.

No non-rooted ranged AoE should be out damaging melee damage ever... period... should not happen. The design of a game that rewards ranged play with a greater number of targets, higher damage and far greater DPS while remaining mobile is flawed. Every ranged AoE in the game should root the caster for the duration of the cast or its damage should be halved.

I have the same opinion about invuln (should root the player) and stealthed players should be moving half speed.

It doesn't out damage melee damage. With the possible exception of meteor shower which falls under rooting the caster. The plague of scourge was that a large chunk of its damage was castable (and still is) whilst CCed, so melees recourse of pushing onto a ranged group and staying on top of them via CCs has the weakness of being soft/hard/corrupted away from whilst the scourge still freely deals its melee damage in that scenario despite those things. This combined with shades being able to hit MORE targets than melee could made melee unfeasible. The latter part has been fixed. Now it just remains to be seen as to whether people will properly adjust and comp for what it takes to push onto an enemy (increased toughness, utilization of things like DH block or leaps to get close) or if they'll just try to play melee like they've been playing pirateship then throw up their hands when it doesn't seem to work.

[subversiontwo.7501]

@Straegen.2938 said:

@subversiontwo.7501 said:

@Straegen said:Scourge is still the most efficient ground AoE spam class in the game so not much changed. They went from dominant large scale OP to dominant large scale OP.That could be all good and well though. Something has to be the best at something and the role of Necromancers have always been to be the most efficient ranged ground target class or ranged ripping class. Like you say, dominant is not a problem, OP is a problem. Classes or their roles don't have to be dragged down into nothing to achieve a tolerable balance. They just have to make room for other classes to do other things.

No non-rooted ranged AoE should be out damaging melee damage ever... period... should not happen. The design of a game that rewards ranged play with a greater number of targets, higher damage and far greater DPS while remaining mobile is flawed. Every ranged AoE in the game should root the caster for the duration of the cast or its damage should be halved.

I have the same opinion about invuln (should root the player) and stealthed players should be moving half speed.

That does not sound like a reservation with Necros and rather a reservation with the core of the combat system of this game.

I hate to be the one to break it to you but the one thing that most players of this game agree upon (and players in the different modes rarely agree on anything) is that the combat system of GW2 is very good and suitable for an MMO. That goes for WvW as well, the vast majority of people who still play GW2 WvW do so because the combat system makes them stay and stands very competetive for RvR type of open world PvP content of various scales compared to the likes of WoW, AA, BDO, FFIV and ESO.

All these people like the fact that combat is fast, fluid and flexible and do not want things that root players in place and takes all the fun away.

That we have arc cleaves, body AoE and reticles along with fields and blasts rather than tab-targetting, singles, channels and global cooldowns is what makes the core of GW2 combat, it creates the fluidity, flexibility and scalability and it is why the combat system is so suitable for the genre and this mode. Classes that have issues fitting in usually lack sufficient skills fitting into the system and if anything they should use the system more - changing clunky targetable skills to cleaves with narrower arcs etc.

I believe you will find yourself very lonely in your perspective here, ultimately wanting to change this game into another game.

Now, all of that does not mean that things are all well and fine with reticled AoE at all times. There are things to be said about radius and placement ranges and so on. However, that is the way to balance things and keep them from being a sea of red circles. You can easily make things more difficult to place, covering less ground and indirectly hitting fewer players rather than adding old, stale and artificial limitations through single targetting and negative effects.

That is also why quite alot of people find the Sand Savant change positive, because it is inline with the system. It normalizes the cleave back into the system and in the past people have mentioned other normalisations that should have been done to Scourge rather than axing fun and interesting aspects of the spec. Rather than changing the double pulsing for example it would have been much better to reduce the radius and reach to normalize the reticle into the system. At least they finally wisened up on half of it now after stubbornly trying less useful things for two years in typical prior ArenaNet fashion.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

So I ran organized with my guildies yesterday. I’ll be honest I really haven’t felt the impact of any changes. The bombs are still quiet strong, and death zones are still very much a thing.

[Sovereign.1093]

still good for counter bombs as long as your group is well supported. especially if u got the

quick brandalacrity gadepurge and stealth scrapbyrst cc spell breakerand boon corrupt scourgeand shouts tempest.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@Sovereign.1093 said:still good for counter bombs as long as your group is well supported.

I don’t really understand what you mean by this, can you clarify.

[Sovereign.1093]

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:still good for counter bombs as long as your group is well supported.

I don’t really understand what you mean by this, can you clarify.

scourge still works well in a team.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@Sovereign.1093 said:

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:still good for counter bombs as long as your group is well supported.

I don’t really understand what you mean by this, can you clarify.

scourge still works well in a team.

Hmm well I think that supports the reason why I feel nothing has changed? Thought the whole point of the patch was to get scourge under control.

[Dawdler.8521]

@Straegen.2938 said:Every ranged AoE in the game should root the caster for the duration of the cast or its damage should be halved.So OP engie pistol autoattack should permanently root you in place or do 300 damage at 2500 power?

Wait isnt melee also technically very short range AoE?

Ranged AoE would cover like 95% of the skills.

[Sovereign.1093]

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:

@JusticeRetroHunter.7684 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:still good for counter bombs as long as your group is well supported.

I don’t really understand what you mean by this, can you clarify.

scourge still works well in a team.

Hmm well I think that supports the reason why I feel nothing has changed? Thought the whole point of the patch was to get scourge under control.

it's weaker now. less 5 targets. and less corrupts. but it highlights a point that a good team does good damage and sustain and a bad team gets wiped easy. if a team has a good team synergy, it will always be better than those who dont. it also highlights the point that the scourge is not the issue. what is ? some people are just bad or aren't there yet. so they need to get good. a synergized composition will win easier than those who are not. and if you do good at doing the easy thing, chances are you'll be able to pull of a win versus a wipe.

a test.do a spike. count 1 2 3 bomb. if your team can do it. then you're already ahead of the 50%. do a refresh count 1 2 3 heal cleanse might stealth speed if you do this together, you're ahead again of 50% of the players. if you'll able to chain these 2. you're ahead of 75% of the players. muscle memory/situational awareness - things that you get through experience.

[God.2708]

The ultimate point of the patch wasn't to get rid of scourge. Doing that would require far more drastic changes and TBH no one really wants that. The point was to stabilize scourge so that a group of 60% scourges with support is not auto win and the only course of action to take.

Now, a giant zerg will still gain a lot from taking plenty of scourges. That has more to do with the nature of giant blobby fights and them favoring carpeting AoEs. Even in that situation scourges now have a lot more diversity in what they can take and still do that job and at the very least it becomes more interesting for the scourge on how to build. Competing options are also more relevant than they were in that situation even though scourge is still probably the go-to.

In smaller fights (15-25s) going heavy scourge is no longer the auto win. Skill now becomes a more relevant factor over which group has more scourges, and a group that intentionally comps without scourges isn't handicapping themselves the same way as they would have pre-patch. I am of the belief that smart composition will allow a mid sized group to not utilize scourges at all and play melee over ranged. From what I've seen though most groups trying this are still comping like they would pirateship and not utilizing tools or stats properly to make it actually effective. That and no amount of scourge nerfs is going to let a mid sized group kill a blob, regardless of what the blob is running. Zerg busting requires some entirely different changes and these are not it.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@God.2708 said:The ultimate point of the patch wasn't to get rid of scourge. Doing that would require far more drastic changes and TBH no one really wants that. The point was to stabilize scourge so that a group of 60% scourges with support is not auto win and the only course of action to take.

Now, a giant zerg will still gain a lot from taking plenty of scourges. That has more to do with the nature of giant blobby fights and them favoring carpeting AoEs. Even in that situation scourges now have a lot more diversity in what they can take and still do that job and at the very least it becomes more interesting for the scourge on how to build. Competing options are also more relevant than they were in that situation even though scourge is still probably the go-to.

In smaller fights (15-25s) going heavy scourge is no longer the auto win. Skill now becomes a more relevant factor over which group has more scourges, and a group that intentionally comps without scourges isn't handicapping themselves the same way as they would have pre-patch. I am of the belief that smart composition will allow a mid sized group to not utilize scourges at all and play melee over ranged. From what I've seen though most groups trying this are still comping like they would pirateship and not utilizing tools or stats properly to make it actually effective. That and no amount of scourge nerfs is going to let a mid sized group kill a blob, regardless of what the blob is running. Zerg busting requires some entirely different changes and these are not it.

Alright, makes sense. Just gotta give it more time to fully judge where things will settle. What are scourges even taking right now? Power? Condi?

[Cyninja.2954]

@Sovereign.1093 said:

@Simo.6819 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:

actually small or big your opponents there at middle isle spammed a lot of ae and your team couldn't really push in except kill their straglers. i made a small diagram earlier to highlight the points

thats called a spike , and you can either kite it , sit in it and die , or dodge trough it , thats how WvW work son, as i said , noone of that vod clips has to be considered for rebalance argument , as the fight was 1:2 ratio , all the info or example taken from that vod are irrilevant for a proper rebalance or argumentation.

highlighting my point again. their ae is very good and kept your team off. not saying rebalance, simply talking about pirate chips

No, what Simo is saying is: you are trying to deduce arguments from a heavily skewed situation. Winning 1v2 or even 1v1.5 fights is not as easy as it sometimes seems, even if the underdog side is organized.

It requires one or multiple factors to go in favor of the underdog such as:

• a stealth initiation as to even numbers early (and even then, at a 1v2 ratio you are still disadvantaged due to downstate immunity and still twice the targets)
• a heavy positioning advantage (such as the enemy arrogantly trying to jump on you)
• excellent poke and disengage of the underdog without the bigger blob reacting to it
• a HUGE disparity in player skill and class advantage

That fight you were referring to had none of those benefits for KILL.

The biggest issues you face as underdog once you pass the 1.5 enemy mark are:

• your bomb will not pressure the enemy hard enough even if it hits perfectly
• the enemy's bomb, even if only a fraction of it hits, will pressure you hard. This is absolutely unrelated to class. Watch what happens if a blob twice your size with elementalists as dps hits you, the results would not be to different from necro. It might even be worse if the enemy blob has twice the amount of warriors to go along with that
• downstate immunity kicks in and damage is to spread out to make use of downstates fast enough

On topic:The necro nerf has created some room for other builds to be played. Scrims have seen more Reaper play from guilds trying melee setups. The main advantage right now is: brain dead necromancer F spam will not hit 10 people around the necro any longer, which makes pushing at uneven numbers better. The ranged spike from necro out of stealth is now lower, making pushing bigger groups harder for smaller groups.

[Sovereign.1093]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:

@Simo.6819 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:

actually small or big your opponents there at middle isle spammed a lot of ae and your team couldn't really push in except kill their straglers. i made a small diagram earlier to highlight the points

thats called a spike , and you can either kite it , sit in it and die , or dodge trough it , thats how WvW work son, as i said , noone of that vod clips has to be considered for rebalance argument , as the fight was 1:2 ratio , all the info or example taken from that vod are irrilevant for a proper rebalance or argumentation.

highlighting my point again. their ae is very good and kept your team off. not saying rebalance, simply talking about pirate chips

No, what Simo is saying is: you are trying to deduce arguments from a heavily skewed situation. Winning 1v2 or even 1v1.5 fights is not as easy as it sometimes seems, even if the underdog side is organized.

It requires one or multiple factors to go in favor of the underdog such as:

• a stealth initiation as to even numbers early (and even then, at a 1v2 ratio you are still disadvantaged due to downstate immunity and still twice the targets)
• a heavy positioning advantage (such as the enemy arrogantly trying to jump on you)
• excellent poke and disengage of the underdog without the bigger blob reacting to it
• a HUGE disparity in player skill and class advantage

That fight you were referring to had none of those benefits for KILL.

The biggest issues you face as underdog once you pass the 1.5 enemy mark are:

• your bomb will not pressure the enemy hard enough even if it hits perfectly
• the enemy's bomb, even if only a fraction of it hits, will pressure you hard. This is absolutely unrelated to class. Watch what happens if a blob twice your size with elementalists as dps hits you, the results would not be to different from necro. It might even be worse if the enemy blob has twice the amount of warriors to go along with that
• downstate immunity kicks in and damage is to spread out to make use of downstates fast enough

On topic:The necro nerf has created some room for other builds to be played. Scrims have seen more Reaper play from guilds trying melee setups. The main advantage right now is: brain dead necromancer F spam will not hit 10 people around the necro any longer, which makes pushing at uneven numbers better. The ranged spike from necro out of stealth is now lower, making pushing bigger groups harder for smaller groups.

actually that's highlighting my point more. :) the other side just simply out ranged them and had a very decent on point ae. not much they can do to push though the wave of ae on the floor whether stealth or not, the other com must simply be familiar with his tactics.

[Sovereign.1093]

on scourge. well, it is still meta. if the player is good at dodging and can stick to com good. (i.e. axe warhorn speed runes or traveller) he'll be fine. you can push with f1 but remember to recenter the shades on you by your second f1. and save the last one for self bombs.

if you're alone, well... thieves will hunt you down. you can try, condi heal or be a derp minstrel or nomad, but u may get bored or just focus on heals support.

the scourge user must think about allocating his self defense barriers. but as long as your group is good, you'll be fine even as zerk

[Fatherbliss.4701]

All of these comments really match up to what I'm seeing and what I am testing. A number of folks I know are spreading out far more into Reaper and even core necro. What I will say is that as the numbers on both sides of an engage go up Scourge is going to be on the field more frequently. Proper rotation of the barriers can still tank a ton of damage while applying the corrupts more judiciously. It just means you need to be more skilled now and look for additional avenues for fights. I'm okay with that. Honestly I'd like more of it in the long run. I've been saying for awhile now that I'm cautiously optimistic about where things are heading.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Sovereign.1093 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:

@Simo.6819 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:

actually small or big your opponents there at middle isle spammed a lot of ae and your team couldn't really push in except kill their straglers. i made a small diagram earlier to highlight the points

thats called a spike , and you can either kite it , sit in it and die , or dodge trough it , thats how WvW work son, as i said , noone of that vod clips has to be considered for rebalance argument , as the fight was 1:2 ratio , all the info or example taken from that vod are irrilevant for a proper rebalance or argumentation.

highlighting my point again. their ae is very good and kept your team off. not saying rebalance, simply talking about pirate chips

No, what Simo is saying is: you are trying to deduce arguments from a heavily skewed situation. Winning 1v2 or even 1v1.5 fights is not as easy as it sometimes seems, even if the underdog side is organized.

It requires one or multiple factors to go in favor of the underdog such as:

• a stealth initiation as to even numbers early (and even then, at a 1v2 ratio you are still disadvantaged due to downstate immunity and still twice the targets)
• a heavy positioning advantage (such as the enemy arrogantly trying to jump on you)
• excellent poke and disengage of the underdog without the bigger blob reacting to it
• a HUGE disparity in player skill and class advantage

That fight you were referring to had none of those benefits for KILL.

The biggest issues you face as underdog once you pass the 1.5 enemy mark are:

• your bomb will not pressure the enemy hard enough even if it hits perfectly
• the enemy's bomb, even if only a fraction of it hits, will pressure you hard. This is absolutely unrelated to class. Watch what happens if a blob twice your size with elementalists as dps hits you, the results would not be to different from necro. It might even be worse if the enemy blob has twice the amount of warriors to go along with that
• downstate immunity kicks in and damage is to spread out to make use of downstates fast enough

On topic:The necro nerf has created some room for other builds to be played. Scrims have seen more Reaper play from guilds trying melee setups. The main advantage right now is: brain dead necromancer F spam will not hit 10 people around the necro any longer, which makes pushing at uneven numbers better. The ranged spike from necro out of stealth is now lower, making pushing bigger groups harder for smaller groups.

actually that's highlighting my point more. :) the other side just simply out ranged them and had a very decent on point ae. not much they can do to push though the wave of ae on the floor whether stealth or not, the other com must simply be familiar with his tactics.

Yes, but the reason they out-ranged them was due to amount of players, not class balance... How is this difference hard to understand?

[Sovereign.1093]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:

@Simo.6819 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:

actually small or big your opponents there at middle isle spammed a lot of ae and your team couldn't really push in except kill their straglers. i made a small diagram earlier to highlight the points

thats called a spike , and you can either kite it , sit in it and die , or dodge trough it , thats how WvW work son, as i said , noone of that vod clips has to be considered for rebalance argument , as the fight was 1:2 ratio , all the info or example taken from that vod are irrilevant for a proper rebalance or argumentation.

highlighting my point again. their ae is very good and kept your team off. not saying rebalance, simply talking about pirate chips

No, what Simo is saying is: you are trying to deduce arguments from a heavily skewed situation. Winning 1v2 or even 1v1.5 fights is not as easy as it sometimes seems, even if the underdog side is organized.

It requires one or multiple factors to go in favor of the underdog such as:

• a stealth initiation as to even numbers early (and even then, at a 1v2 ratio you are still disadvantaged due to downstate immunity and still twice the targets)
• a heavy positioning advantage (such as the enemy arrogantly trying to jump on you)
• excellent poke and disengage of the underdog without the bigger blob reacting to it
• a HUGE disparity in player skill and class advantage

That fight you were referring to had none of those benefits for KILL.

The biggest issues you face as underdog once you pass the 1.5 enemy mark are:

• your bomb will not pressure the enemy hard enough even if it hits perfectly
• the enemy's bomb, even if only a fraction of it hits, will pressure you hard. This is absolutely unrelated to class. Watch what happens if a blob twice your size with elementalists as dps hits you, the results would not be to different from necro. It might even be worse if the enemy blob has twice the amount of warriors to go along with that
• downstate immunity kicks in and damage is to spread out to make use of downstates fast enough

On topic:The necro nerf has created some room for other builds to be played. Scrims have seen more Reaper play from guilds trying melee setups. The main advantage right now is: brain dead necromancer F spam will not hit 10 people around the necro any longer, which makes pushing at uneven numbers better. The ranged spike from necro out of stealth is now lower, making pushing bigger groups harder for smaller groups.

actually that's highlighting my point more. :) the other side just simply out ranged them and had a very decent on point ae. not much they can do to push though the wave of ae on the floor whether stealth or not, the other com must simply be familiar with his tactics.

Yes, but the reason they out-ranged them was due to amount of players, not class balance... How is this difference hard to understand?

ah you miss my point since i posted the one on top.

they werent that blobby in the isle. :3

[DeadlySynz.3471]

@Fatherbliss.4701 said:All of these comments really match up to what I'm seeing and what I am testing. A number of folks I know are spreading out far more into Reaper and even core necro. What I will say is that as the numbers on both sides of an engage go up Scourge is going to be on the field more frequently. Proper rotation of the barriers can still tank a ton of damage while applying the corrupts more judiciously. It just means you need to be more skilled now and look for additional avenues for fights. I'm okay with that. Honestly I'd like more of it in the long run. I've been saying for awhile now that I'm cautiously optimistic about where things are heading.

One thing I've noticed over the past 3 days, is I've only seen 1 shade tossed out in fights, and this was from big engages of 30+ players on each side. I figured there was going to be a hit in how many scourges or how many of them would be using shades at this point, but I had no idea it was going to be that big of a hit.

I'm interested to see in reset tonight when numbers are at their peak just how many shades are used. This could prove to be one of the biggest mistakes Anet has made if so many players now are completely forgoing a class or it's mechanic.

[Strider Pj.2193]

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:

@Fatherbliss.4701 said:All of these comments really match up to what I'm seeing and what I am testing. A number of folks I know are spreading out far more into Reaper and even core necro. What I will say is that as the numbers on both sides of an engage go up Scourge is going to be on the field more frequently. Proper rotation of the barriers can still tank a ton of damage while applying the corrupts more judiciously. It just means you need to be more skilled now and look for additional avenues for fights. I'm okay with that. Honestly I'd like more of it in the long run. I've been saying for awhile now that I'm cautiously optimistic about where things are heading.

One thing I've noticed over the past 3 days, is I've only seen 1 shade tossed out in fights, and this was from big engages of 30+ players on each side. I figured there was going to be a hit in how many scourges or how many of them would be using shades at this point, but I had no idea it was going to be that big of a hit.

I'm interested to see in reset tonight when numbers are at their peak just how many shades are used. This could prove to be one of the biggest mistakes Anet has made if so many players now are completely forgoing a class or it's mechanic.

I don’t think tonight’s reset will be the telling one. Tonight will be a mix: some will still think they need to jump on their scourge because they haven’t really heard about the changes.

Next week? I think as people on a larger scale figure it out, if it’s going to change, you will see a significant shift.

[SWI.4127]

@Sovereign.1093 said:if the player is good at dodging and can stick to com good. (i.e. axe warhorn speed runes or traveller) he'll be fine.

You have got to be kidding me. Why would you use those runes just to stay on tag rather than just asking your players to work on their positioning? Plus scrappers and/or tempests can give superspeed. Really all they should need is swiftness and cleansing of any chill or cripple.

[Sovereign.1093]

lol, let me laugh a little. =)

[SWI.4127]

Fair enough lol. I have always wanted to try one raid with all speed runes on players so I get it.

[Sovereign.1093]

@SWI.4127 said:Fair enough lol. I have always wanted to try one raid with all speed runes on players so I get it.

we tried to keep the speed runes on the down low cause its really fun 66% increase. now its pretty expensive. 6 gold last i remember