[Spoilers] Racial reality checks

[purr.3296]

Spoilers galore.

This topic might have come up before, but I did the Storms of Winter meta event today and found Asgeir's journal, in which he reveals that it wasn't the Spirits of the Wild that led the Norn south, but rather it was Jormag persuading Asgeir as we've heard and seen her do with countless people during Whisper in the Dark. This, if revealed to the general Norn populace, would obviously be a huge cultural shock to them since the concept of Asgeir and the spirits leading the Norn to safety is an integral part of who they are. But it's not the first time we've seen a race having to face a harsh reality check with their beliefs - in HoT we had the Sylvari who came to realise they were basically just an accident away from being born as mindless murder servants they were "destined" to be, and in PoF we had the human race dealing with their gods abandoning them or straight up turning on them.

If this is the overall story arc we will be seeing in the future as well, how would this come up with Charr and Asura? They don't really hold belief in gods or general spiritualism, the core of their societies are the three Colleges and the Eternal Alchemy for Asura and the four High Legions and the imperators (and/or Khan-Ur) for Charr. Maybe the current storyline of Bangar will lead to the similar type of "reality check" for Charr as the Norn, Sylvari and humans have faced. Idk. What do y'all think?

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

Honestly, I hope it doesn't become that cookie-cutter- especially considering there hasn't been much in the way of follow-through for the two expansions- but if it were to go that way...

I agree that charr society is on that trajectory already. If Bangar comes back alive from the Shiverpeaks with any measure of success, we're going to have the paragon of traditional charr values, the one Imperator with substantial cross-legion support, the one best positioned to make the 'rightful' claim to the title of Khan-Ur, leading his race full-throttle on a path that ends either as a dragon's slaves or in a war with the whole of Tyria that no one is going to come out of in one piece. Add to that how some of the shamans are now the good guys, the voices of temperance and reason... a lot of charr stuff has already been turned on its head. All that's missing is some revelation that the last Khan-Ur wasn't the golden conqueror that the charr remember him as.

For the asura... it's hard to say, because they're so good at pointing the finger and making it someone else's problem. Let the Inquest seize open power, let Bubbles wipe out Rata Sum, and most of the survivors are going to be strutting about how they had the good sense not to be standing in the disaster zone. I think the only things that would genuinely shake the asura ego is another race entering the scene with objectively superior magitech, or the magic balance situation getting so out of hand that their magitech fails entirely. (Being conquered by the skritt might also do the trick, but it'd be hard for any other race to take seriously.)

[Thornwolf.9721]

I dont believe this is as much of a "The spirits are like the six" arguement I believe the spirits fought with jormag, and I do believe they had some hand in helping asgeir lead them south. I also believe Jormag isn't evil like we have been led to believe in fact as far as I can tell by digging through the lore it seems that Drakaar might be the one orchestrating the sons of svanir because svanir was its creation not nessacarily jormags. Glint turned on kralk and had already had doubts of him pre-ritual of purification, Drakaar could simply see how aurene had become and elder dragon and dream of doing the same.

Personally if they do this to the norn then Im done. The druidic/celtic/norse/native american vibes I get from them was the appeal and they have been ham-fisted and shafted this whole time through out the whole game. If they just pull a "Lol Jk your spirits hate you" and do what they did with the six then im truly done with the lore of this fever dream, not only did I not get my shape-shifting were-beasts. Not only did I not get the norn story I wanted or have wanted, which is now more of a charr story than a norn story. But now you are taking away EVERYTHING that makes the norn who and what they are, and creating this lazy narrative of "Lets subvert expectations" in this ham-fisted "Atheism is the only true path" mentality.

So as a player please DONT do this, at least let the spirits remain and let the norn have that in the lore. You keep taking from the race I play the ONLY race I play and its starting to get old, I did the personal story on the others for the acheivo but I've been a norn guy since GW1. Stop making me feel like you're punishing me for liking them by ret-coning/ Destroying what made them so cool.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"purr.3296" said:Spoilers galore.

This topic might have come up before, but I did the Storms of Winter meta event today and found Asgeir's journal, in which he reveals that it wasn't the Spirits of the Wild that led the Norn south, but rather it was Jormag persuading Asgeir as we've heard and seen her do with countless people during Whisper in the Dark. This, if revealed to the general Norn populace, would obviously be a huge cultural shock to them since the concept of Asgeir and the spirits leading the Norn to safety is an integral part of who they are.

The journal doesn't suggest that the Spirits of the Wild didn't lead the norn south. Rather, it only shows that Asgeir gave up his attack. Jormag had personally assaulted the norn on their trek south, and Owl sacrificed herself to stop Jormag from attacking the norn below them. The very fate and way Owl died showcases that Jormag lied to Asgeir about "letting the norn go" and, on top of that, continues to show that the Spirits of the Wild did lead the norn south.

My interpretation thus being that, upon seeing Asgeir fail to defeat Jormag, decided the only way to keep the norn alive was to help them leave their lands.

So I don't think there'll be much cultural shock from the norn overall. The Spirits still did what they did, even if we're learning that Asgeir was turned into passiveness. There'll be the shock that such a great hero was a fraud and that the prophecy of the tooth is a lie, but there'll still be the expectation that Braham should be capable of defeating Jormag since he cracked the tooth, may result in the norn marching on Jormag with force, or even disgust towards Knut and his sons (though given how individualistic the norn are, they may not treat Knut and his sons poorly since they weren't invovled).

[Fenella.2634]

@purr.3296 said:how would this come up with Charr and Asura?I think the Charr already are through with their reality check after GW1.As for Asura, no idea really. Even if it were proven the Eternal Alchemy was wrong, they'd probably find it interesting and present a new hypothesis.

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:The journal doesn't suggest that the Spirits of the Wild didn't lead the norn south. Rather, it only shows that Asgeir gave up his attack. Jormag had personally assaulted the norn on their trek south, and Owl sacrificed herself to stop Jormag from attacking the norn below them. The very fate and way Owl died showcases that Jormag lied to Asgeir about "letting the norn go" and, on top of that, continues to show that the Spirits of the Wild did lead the norn south.Which is actually a really good point that should be read by all those people who now want the Commander to "consider" Jormag's alliance. So much for special treatment.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Fenella.2634 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:The journal doesn't suggest that the Spirits of the Wild didn't lead the norn south. Rather, it only shows that Asgeir gave up his attack. Jormag had personally assaulted the norn on their trek south, and Owl sacrificed herself to stop Jormag from attacking the norn below them. The very fate and way Owl died showcases that Jormag lied to Asgeir about "letting the norn go" and, on top of that, continues to show that the Spirits of the Wild did lead the norn south.Which is actually a really good point that should be read by all those people who now want the Commander to "consider" Jormag's alliance. So much for special treatment.

Unless, of course, ArenaNet decides to claim all those skaalds were telling lies. But that's like, 10 NPCs who would have lied then.

Alternatively, they could claim that Jormag made that attack to "seal the deception" for Asgeir and never planned to wipe them out.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

So I don't think there'll be much cultural shock from the norn overall. The Spirits still did what they did, even if we're learning that Asgeir was turned into passiveness. There'll be the shock that such a great hero was a fraud and that the prophecy of the tooth is a lie, but there'll still be the expectation that Braham should be capable of defeating Jormag since he cracked the tooth, may result in the norn marching on Jormag with force, or even disgust towards Knut and his sons (though given how individualistic the norn are, they may not treat Knut and his sons poorly since they weren't invovled).

And even with the new information, passiveness and fraud may be too strong of words. Slaying Frostfang, bringing the fight to Jormag for 'days on end', and it seems that even after falling under the dragon's thrall, a part of him still felt that he had been close to succeeding.

Thinking on it, if that's true, that could also go a long way to explain Jormag's different approach. If they had had a near-death experience so soon after awakening, a century and a half before DE took a shot at Kralkatorrik, it would make sense to shift to a strategy of subversion over brute destructive force.

@Fenella.2634 said:

As for Asura, no idea really. Even if it were proven the Eternal Alchemy was wrong, they'd probably find it interesting and present a new hypothesis.I'm not sure it'd be possible to refute the Eternal Alchemy to begin with. The way they talk about it, it's less a comprehensive model of how reality works, and more just a philosophy or worldview that the multiverse does play by rules- science, in other words, just a science that includes magic. If they get something wrong, it doesn't mean that the rules aren't there; they can simply believe that they were wrong about what the rules were, or that there were other rules that they had missed. It's not a proper theory because it isn't falsifiable.