What is the excuse for Firebrand?

[Sailorz.4270]

Why does firebrand get away with being the way it is?

Best support spec in the game (zero argument), and symbolbrand pretty much dominates 1v1's and teamfights. They only get-away being considered "balanced" in my eyes is because of having terrible mobility, fighting one 1v1 is a death sentence on most classes besides thief, mesmer, and weaver but even THEN, shouldn't those specs, along with other duelist/bruiser outright demolish a support oriented elite spec 1v1?

So along side with healing/boon support that BOTH variants get they also can stack burn with decent power dmg and more CC than they should as well as survivability, they basically add everything a team needs, evidence of firebrand stacking here - https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/92347/double-firebrand-double-herald#latest .

I'm not going to pretend to know what to change, and being a support class is fine (the only support class right now - which is a different topic).Maybe it's me and FB is just my kryptonite on everything I play. I feel like FB is the rampage (prenerf) of classes. Mobility is the only reason you don't see them more, and if they did have better mobility it would be THE carry class bar-none. If the trade-off had to be FB got more mobility in exchange for some kind of nerf to take away from the effectiveness of the things in their kit, I'd take it.

[Skotlex.7580]

It's been mentioned plenty of times. ANet has stated they have big rebalance changes planned for the future with competitive modes in mind, but they haven't divulged what they will be.

So, guess we can just wait and hope ANet doesn't misses the mark when said balance patch arrives.

[Thorstienn.1642]

What's the excuse for every PoF espec?What's the excuse for high ranks farming low ranks?What's the excuse for the state of PvP?

I honestly don't understand what 200+ people do from 9-5 5days a week in any of these games nowadays.

P.S. obviously came out of some horrid matches.

[Fueki.4753]

I don't think Firebrand is the thing people should worry.A well played Weaver currently is more of a Thread than well played Firebrands.And then you have the other semi-permantly evaders: Thieves and Mirages.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Fueki.4753 said:I don't think Firebrand is the thing people should worry.A well played Weaver currently is more of a Thread than well played Firebrands.And then you have the other semi-permantly evaders: Thieves and Mirages.

I dont think you get the guys problem.FB is the best at everything, its better at 1v1 then duelists, better at supporting then any other support, has insane level of CC, its as tanky as the most tanky of specs.All at once. Low skill floor, low skill ceiling. All FB are the same, I forget their names, wouldnt care about what FB I have, they all are as strong as eachother, they dont show anything special, all of them equal and the same.

[Exedore.6320]

Firebrand can't be addressed by some numbers tweaks. It needs more fundamental changes such take longer. It's not being ignored.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

Firebrand will be rebalanced soon. If they want it to have a support role, that's fine, but it shouldn't also be able to nuke you with condis or symbol damage. Once the balancing team decides what they want FB to do they'll trim what's excessive.

[Abelisk.5148]

While Firebrand has a diverse kit I wouldn't say it has a low skill floor, especially in a support scenario.

[otto.5684]

@"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:Firebrand will be rebalanced soon. If they want it to have a support role, that's fine, but it shouldn't also be able to nuke you with condis or symbol damage. Once the balancing team decides what they want FB to do they'll trim what's excessive.

Well, if you are playing support you cannot deal much damage. To play damage you will not be able to provide support. They are two distinct builds, with distinct gear and skills setup. I dunno why people still think it is the same build. It is not.

As for overall FB balance, Anet does not really know what to do (and this is not me giving them excuse). Last time they did a change to FB they removed the single aegis and left the group aegis from ToC. Very smart... So ya, GL with balancing this shit.. And the upcoming mythical change that will balance the universe, probably, will be more like, boon x duration cut in half. It won't fix anything. If Anet had "major solutions" we would not be 7 years trying to discuss them.

[Fueki.4753]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:Firebrand will be rebalanced soon. If they want it to have a support role, that's fine, but it shouldn't also be able to nuke you with condis or symbol damage. Once the balancing team decides what they want FB to do they'll trim what's excessive.

If they trim Symbol damage just to nerf Firebrand, I'll lose another main character with my Symbol DH, leaving me with literally 0 classes that I can enjoy and being semi-viable.Symbols are fine the way they are.Arenanet should only nerf Firebrand directly, not core.

[Ragnar.4257]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:FB is the best at everything

Ummm....... really?

@Leonidrex.5649 said:its better at 1v1 then duelists

It's a decent duelist, but it is by no means the best. Go and see how many FB's there are in the 1v1 tournaments being run. I'll give you a hint: it's not many.

And this is also misleading, because 'duelist' =/= 'sidenoder'. FB is a really bad sidenoder, as it has no escape-mechanic. As soon as it is caught in a 1v2, it's toast. It will never be able to compete for that role with the likes of Holo/SoulB/Mirage/SpellB because those all have the option to leave a fight when it's getting too hot.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:better at supporting then any other support

Undeniably true. The question is how to nerf without destroying other aspects of the class. I would suggest reducing the radius on the tome skills down, (mainly the #4 and #5) which right now are ludicrously HUGE and allow a single FB to simultaneously support several team-mates scattered around the place. Reduce the radius so they must prioritise who to support, and must risk coming in close to give support. That, and signet of mercy needs to just be removed/redesigned.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:has insane level of CC

Certainly, it has too much, but not really any more than other meta classes. CC needs bringing down across the board, it isn't a FB-specific issue.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:its as tanky as the most tanky of specs.

Ummmmm....... FB is a terrible tank. It can in NO way survive multiple enemies targeting it and bunkering a point in the same manner as a water-weaver, or old Scrapper or Staff-Thief. Go and watch some MAT's and you'll see that typically it's the FB that gets blown-up and insta-downed at the start of team-fights, because it has very few ways of dealing with being hard-focused. Aegis doesn't do anything when 4 people are on you. Great.... you've blocked 1 hit out of the 20 hits in the last second. To survive a situation like that you need long duration evades, channeled blocks, or leaps/teleports to escape, none of which FB has.

@Sailorz.4270 said:Mobility is the only reason you don't see them more, and if they did have better mobility it would be THE carry class bar-none. If the trade-off had to be FB got more mobility in exchange for some kind of nerf to take away from the effectiveness of the things in their kit, I'd take it.

So you want to reduce FB's support capacity and increase it's mobility. So you want to turn it into a warrior?

What is it with people and wanting to make every class a generic clone of every other class? Why are you all so against classes having unique playstyles and being good at certain things and bad at certain others?

Thief? Too much mobility and stealth, make it more like a warrior plz.Guardian? Too much support, make it more like a warrior plz.Mesmer? Too much trickery stuff, make it more like a warrior plz.Ranger? Too much pets and bows, make it more like a warrior plz.Engi? Too much combos and tools, make it more like a warrior plz.Necro? Too much condi and corrupt, make it more like a warrior plz.

Jeez, what a fun game this is going to be when you lot are done with it. We can all just stand in a row with our identical warriors and mash the 1 skill that everyone has to have because variety is too difficult, and the concept of being strong at one thing and weak at another is too much for small minds to handle.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@Fueki.4753 said:

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:Firebrand will be rebalanced soon. If they want it to have a support role, that's fine, but it shouldn't also be able to nuke you with condis or symbol damage. Once the balancing team decides what they want FB to do they'll trim what's excessive.

If they trim Symbol damage just to nerf Firebrand, I'll lose another main character with my Symbol DH, leaving me with literally 0 classes that I can enjoy and being semi-viable.Symbols are fine the way they are.Arenanet should only nerf Firebrand directly, not core.

Agreed.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

To me it looks like they were too afraid to touch fb and scourge for the longest time. Hopefully with the recent scourge nerf fb will be next.

[ZDragon.3046]

There is no excuse but i dont promote the nerfing of symbols when they are not the problem ideally symbols have always been ok and have their own pros and cons and never were a problem. This leads me to think the issue is within firebrand itself be it on the tomes, the instant use mantra splatter, or just the pure boon sustain or its a mix of all three.

I just dont want to see the wrong things targeted that are perfectly fine when you use them with other builds of guardian like core or dragon hunter.

[OutOfOrder.3719]

I learned symbolbrand this season, as I used to be a Scourge main.(Dead PvP profession)

Although you can win some 1vs1 as firebrand, you still have to really outplay those fights as you are better in team fights. But the moment an enemy shows up, you can’t survive a 1vs2 and are forced to run away.

That’s the difference between a side noder and a team fighter. Just try to fight the firebrand outside the symbols even if it means the node is lost. It’s better to make the kill and wait, then to stand in the Guardians symbols. Dodge out of the symbols.

Condi Mirage and Fire Weaver are still over-performing way more than firebrand as it is easier to climb and carry your team.

It’s very hard to carry your team as a guardian or a necro. I’m afraid this may be more of a learn to play issue rather than a balance issue.

[Dantheman.3589]

I don’t really get why some people are saying symbol brand loses 1v1s to fire weaver and condition mirage, because I’ve never seen that to be the case at least with actually good symbol brands. But I can see it maybe being described as not a duelist. Some people actually like core/dh more as a duelist cuz more instant cast or for dh more mobility, but it’s essentially a similar idea to these spec just more focus on support

[Stand The Wall.6987]

with out fb tho team fights won't exist cuz all the power creep.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:with out fb tho team fights won't exist cuz all the power creep.

should we even consider 2 firebrands vs 2 firebrands a teamfight?

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:with out fb tho team fights won't exist cuz all the power creep.

should we even consider 2 firebrands vs 2 firebrands a teamfight?

is a gerbil a rodent?

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:with out fb tho team fights won't exist cuz all the power creep.

should we even consider 2 firebrands vs 2 firebrands a teamfight?

is a gerbil a rodent?

https://www.aucegypt.edu/fac/attagebrilno?2x FB vs 2x FBIs like heavy metal library, they just scream what they read on the top of their longs, who screams louder wins ;p

[Ashimmu.4219]

From my experience (Core Guard, Warrior) I say Firebrand is not a problem.Sure, you may have hard time to pushing him away from node, or killing him solo, but if he is built for support he is not doing damage (very little) and vice versa - if it's throwing fires from his arse - he's not that tanky (just deal with Burning).I'd say more - support FB is only viable when duoq with someone. If not - people may not know what to do with FB (how to get proper support from him by positioning etc..). When I see a FB in my team I sad a little 'cause probability of lose is increasing.That's imho, of course - don't be triggered :)

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:FB is the best at everything

Ummm....... really?

@Leonidrex.5649 said:its better at 1v1 then duelists

It's a decent duelist, but it is by no means the best. Go and see how many FB's there are in the 1v1 tournaments being run. I'll give you a hint: it's not many.

And this is also misleading, because 'duelist' =/= 'sidenoder'. FB is a really bad sidenoder, as it has no escape-mechanic. As soon as it is caught in a 1v2, it's toast. It will never be able to compete for that role with the likes of Holo/SoulB/Mirage/SpellB because those all have the option to leave a fight when it's getting too hot.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:better at supporting then any other support

Undeniably true. The question is how to nerf without destroying other aspects of the class. I would suggest reducing the radius on the tome skills down, (mainly the #4 and #5) which right now are ludicrously HUGE and allow a single FB to simultaneously support several team-mates scattered around the place. Reduce the radius so they must prioritise who to support, and must risk coming in close to give support. That, and signet of mercy needs to just be removed/redesigned.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:has insane level of CC

Certainly, it has too much, but not really any more than other meta classes. CC needs bringing down across the board, it isn't a FB-specific issue.

Access to CC's, class specific (including elites, not including underwater or downed abilities)

Guardian: 13Warrior: 27Engineer: 23Ranger: 25Thief: 21Elementalist: 23Mesmer: 16Revenant: 9Necromancer: 9

Def wouldn't say they have an "insane level" of CC as Warrior is literally over double the amount, and the guardian had the 3rd lowest access to CC abilities out of all 9.

Not...spamability may be different (ie headshot)

[Sailorz.4270]

@"Sailorz.4270" said:Mobility is the only reason you don't see them more, and if they did have better mobility it would be THE carry class bar-none. If the trade-off had to be FB got more mobility in exchange for some kind of nerf to take away from the effectiveness of the things in their kit, I'd take it.

So you want to reduce FB's support capacity and increase it's mobility. So you want to turn it into a warrior?

What is it with people and wanting to make every class a generic clone of every other class? Why are you all so against classes having unique playstyles and being good at certain things and bad at certain others?

Thief? Too much mobility and stealth, make it more like a warrior plz.Guardian? Too much support, make it more like a warrior plz.Mesmer? Too much trickery stuff, make it more like a warrior plz.Ranger? Too much pets and bows, make it more like a warrior plz.Engi? Too much combos and tools, make it more like a warrior plz.Necro? Too much condi and corrupt, make it more like a warrior plz.

I didn't specifically say nerf the support of FB, I mentioned it a couple times that it was the best support spec and I really did not mind that it is a strong support, I'd like more support specs to be playable including FB.

Not sure how reducing support and giving it more mobility makes it a warrior though. Some abilities are similar on weapon sets but guardian has been a lot burstier and quick in playstyle not relying on stuns / setups like warrior does, it's a lot more risky in general and can easily be deleted (I'm talking about the meditation Hammer-GS & sword/focus builds here mainly to compare to warrior).

The distribution of power for FB in general would be (uh, "kitten"?) to balance, it has the worst mobility in the game so of course to off-set that they have to make everything else in it's kit over the top, so the only way to rebalance it is to give it some more mobility so when they tone down other things the spec won't become irrelevant. I really don't want FB to get kicked out of the meta because having your class get turned upside down is really lame, I know how it feels especially recently (R.I.P. Rifle Holo).

[Thorstienn.1642]

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:FB is the best at everything

Ummm....... really?

@Leonidrex.5649 said:its better at 1v1 then duelists

It's a decent duelist, but it is by no means the best. Go and see how many FB's there are in the 1v1 tournaments being run. I'll give you a hint: it's not many.

And this is also misleading, because 'duelist' =/= 'sidenoder'. FB is a really bad sidenoder, as it has no escape-mechanic. As soon as it is caught in a 1v2, it's toast. It will never be able to compete for that role with the likes of Holo/SoulB/Mirage/SpellB because those all have the option to leave a fight when it's getting too hot.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:better at supporting then any other support

Undeniably true. The question is how to nerf without destroying other aspects of the class. I would suggest reducing the radius on the tome skills down, (mainly the #4 and #5) which right now are ludicrously HUGE and allow a single FB to simultaneously support several team-mates scattered around the place. Reduce the radius so they must prioritise who to support, and must risk coming in close to give support. That, and signet of mercy needs to just be removed/redesigned.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:has insane level of CC

Certainly, it has too much, but not really any more than other meta classes. CC needs bringing down across the board, it isn't a FB-specific issue.

Access to CC's, class specific (including elites, not including underwater or downed abilities)

Guardian: 13Warrior: 27Engineer: 23Ranger: 25Thief: 21Elementalist: 23Mesmer: 16Revenant: 9Necromancer: 9

Def wouldn't say they have an "insane level" of CC as Warrior is literally over double the amount, and the guardian had the 3rd lowest access to CC abilities out of all 9.

Not...spamability may be different (ie headshot)

That list is pointless, as a build cannot necessarily take even half of that, much less be even remotely useful, outside of maybe being a nuisance.

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

I have three Guardians, skilled as Core, Dragonhunter and Firebrand. I also have every class and subclass at lv80, fully exotic geared and with mostly fractal builds, some PvP and WvW, and I can tell you that the Firebrand just feels silly to play compared to all of them.

FB has more access to skills than both my Elementalists and Engineers despite that being their niche.

No, This isn't a "I don't like this, nerf it". In fact, I love Firebrand, I just don't understand why other classes profession mechanics are so poorly designed in comparison, in particular the Soulbeast, which has the worst of the entire game, I think.

Maybe Firebrand is too strong, but it also represents alot of what other classes could've been with some effort.