What is the excuse for Firebrand?

Bigpapasmurf.5623 · December 10, 2019

@Thorstienn.1642 said:
@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:
@Ragnar.4257 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:FB is the best at everything

Ummm....... really?

@Leonidrex.5649 said:its better at 1v1 then duelists

It's a decent duelist, but it is by no means the best. Go and see how many FB's there are in the 1v1 tournaments being run. I'll give you a hint: it's not many.

And this is also misleading, because 'duelist' =/= 'sidenoder'. FB is a really bad sidenoder, as it has no escape-mechanic. As soon as it is caught in a 1v2, it's toast. It will never be able to compete for that role with the likes of Holo/SoulB/Mirage/SpellB because those all have the option to leave a fight when it's getting too hot.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:better at supporting then any other support

Undeniably true. The question is how to nerf without destroying other aspects of the class. I would suggest reducing the radius on the tome skills down, (mainly the #4 and #5) which right now are ludicrously HUGE and allow a single FB to simultaneously support several team-mates scattered around the place. Reduce the radius so they must prioritise who to support, and must risk coming in close to give support. That, and signet of mercy needs to just be removed/redesigned.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:has insane level of CC

Certainly, it has too much, but not really any more than other meta classes. CC needs bringing down across the board, it isn't a FB-specific issue.

Access to CC's, class specific (including elites, not including underwater or downed abilities)

Guardian: 13Warrior: 27Engineer: 23Ranger: 25Thief: 21Elementalist: 23Mesmer: 16Revenant: 9Necromancer: 9

Def wouldn't say they have an "insane level" of CC as Warrior is literally over double the amount, and the guardian had the 3rd lowest access to CC abilities out of all 9.

Not...spamability may be different (ie headshot)

That list is pointless, as a build cannot necessarily take even half of that, much less be even remotely useful, outside of maybe being a nuisance.

Not at all. The goal was to list the CC abilities each class has as it was claimed that Guardian has "insane CC" when in fact they dont. The list was to prove to be a reference point, which I hope you truly grasped.

Sailorz.4270 · December 10, 2019

That list is pointless, as a build cannot necessarily take even half of that, much less be even remotely useful, outside of maybe being a nuisance.

Not at all. The goal was to list the CC abilities each class has as it was claimed that Guardian has "insane CC" when in fact they dont. The list was to prove to be a reference point, which I hope you truly grasped.

I think insane CC is more pointed to the CC in the spec itself along with other parts of the kit in comparison to others, not necessarily the amount of cc abilities the class has available to them to place into their build at any one time. I mean adding both elite spec's utilities into a pot to prove they have more cc abilities compared to other classes, what lol?

Thorstienn.1642 · December 10, 2019

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:
@Thorstienn.1642 said:
@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:
@Ragnar.4257 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:FB is the best at everything

Ummm....... really?

@Leonidrex.5649 said:its better at 1v1 then duelists

It's a decent duelist, but it is by no means the best. Go and see how many FB's there are in the 1v1 tournaments being run. I'll give you a hint: it's not many.

And this is also misleading, because 'duelist' =/= 'sidenoder'. FB is a really bad sidenoder, as it has no escape-mechanic. As soon as it is caught in a 1v2, it's toast. It will never be able to compete for that role with the likes of Holo/SoulB/Mirage/SpellB because those all have the option to leave a fight when it's getting too hot.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:better at supporting then any other support

Undeniably true. The question is how to nerf without destroying other aspects of the class. I would suggest reducing the radius on the tome skills down, (mainly the #4 and #5) which right now are ludicrously HUGE and allow a single FB to simultaneously support several team-mates scattered around the place. Reduce the radius so they must prioritise who to support, and must risk coming in close to give support. That, and signet of mercy needs to just be removed/redesigned.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:has insane level of CC

Certainly, it has too much, but not really any more than other meta classes. CC needs bringing down across the board, it isn't a FB-specific issue.

Access to CC's, class specific (including elites, not including underwater or downed abilities)

Guardian: 13Warrior: 27Engineer: 23Ranger: 25Thief: 21Elementalist: 23Mesmer: 16Revenant: 9Necromancer: 9

Def wouldn't say they have an "insane level" of CC as Warrior is literally over double the amount, and the guardian had the 3rd lowest access to CC abilities out of all 9.

Not...spamability may be different (ie headshot)

That list is pointless, as a build cannot necessarily take even half of that, much less be even remotely useful, outside of maybe being a nuisance.

Not at all. The goal was to list the CC abilities each class has as it was claimed that Guardian has "insane CC" when in fact they dont. The list was to prove to be a reference point, which I hope you truly grasped.

I do grasp what you are saying, however, as a blanket comparison it is still pointless. You have to look at the number of CC abilities that are actually present in the builds (eg the META), not the classes.This train of thought leads to the idea that thieves have insane mobility, stealth AND damge. Or Warriors have crazy sustain, CC, mobility AND damage, etc. The truth is every class has to sacrifice to gain (theoretically).Looking at warrior: insane mobilitiy=GS3, GS5, Sword/dagger2, bullsrush, shield4. insane cc=bullsrush, shield4(wait we just used those for mobility?), stomp, kick, bolas, Hammer(instead of GS or offhand?), mace3 and burst(but what about sword/dagger?), Rampage (now we talkin' OP). EtcI think you get the point?

Bigpapasmurf.5623 · December 10, 2019

@Thorstienn.1642 said:
@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:
@Thorstienn.1642 said:
@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:
@Ragnar.4257 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:FB is the best at everything

Ummm....... really?

@Leonidrex.5649 said:its better at 1v1 then duelists

It's a decent duelist, but it is by no means the best. Go and see how many FB's there are in the 1v1 tournaments being run. I'll give you a hint: it's not many.

And this is also misleading, because 'duelist' =/= 'sidenoder'. FB is a really bad sidenoder, as it has no escape-mechanic. As soon as it is caught in a 1v2, it's toast. It will never be able to compete for that role with the likes of Holo/SoulB/Mirage/SpellB because those all have the option to leave a fight when it's getting too hot.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:better at supporting then any other support

Undeniably true. The question is how to nerf without destroying other aspects of the class. I would suggest reducing the radius on the tome skills down, (mainly the #4 and #5) which right now are ludicrously HUGE and allow a single FB to simultaneously support several team-mates scattered around the place. Reduce the radius so they must prioritise who to support, and must risk coming in close to give support. That, and signet of mercy needs to just be removed/redesigned.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:has insane level of CC

Certainly, it has too much, but not really any more than other meta classes. CC needs bringing down across the board, it isn't a FB-specific issue.

Access to CC's, class specific (including elites, not including underwater or downed abilities)

Guardian: 13Warrior: 27Engineer: 23Ranger: 25Thief: 21Elementalist: 23Mesmer: 16Revenant: 9Necromancer: 9

Def wouldn't say they have an "insane level" of CC as Warrior is literally over double the amount, and the guardian had the 3rd lowest access to CC abilities out of all 9.

Not...spamability may be different (ie headshot)

That list is pointless, as a build cannot necessarily take even half of that, much less be even remotely useful, outside of maybe being a nuisance.

Not at all. The goal was to list the CC abilities each class has as it was claimed that Guardian has "insane CC" when in fact they dont. The list was to prove to be a reference point, which I hope you truly grasped.

I do grasp what you are saying, however, as a blanket comparison it is still pointless. You have to look at the number of CC abilities that are actually present in the builds (eg the META), not the classes.This train of thought leads to the idea that thieves have insane mobility, stealth AND damge. Or Warriors have crazy sustain, CC, mobility AND damage, etc. The truth is every class has to sacrifice to gain (theoretically).Looking at warrior: insane mobilitiy=GS3, GS5, Sword/dagger2, bullsrush, shield4. insane cc=bullsrush, shield4(wait we just used those for mobility?), stomp, kick, bolas, Hammer(instead of GS or offhand?), mace3 and burst(but what about sword/dagger?), Rampage (now we talkin' OP). EtcI think you get the point?

I do, however I feel as you are missing something. My list wasn't about META, it was about the classes as it was specifically mentioned that guardian "has insane CC", so by it being stated guardian specifically, it was brought in as a class specific claim, thus my list was created to reference that there are other classes that have more "insane" CC, thus invalidating the initial claim. Not once do I mention about any trade-offs or anything as that point was clearly moot for the reasoning behind making the list.

Its ok if you didnt get it, nor if anyone got it really as the list is what it is and nothing else :)

Was fun tho seeing how many CC's each class have. Gave me some ideas on builds that ive started thoerycrafting on because of the list. :)

Id say "you never know, the next meta may be born because of this list" however I really dont care about meta, never had really despite some builds ive made that became meta at one point long time ago. Personally, I hope no more of my builds become meta as then when someone faces me, I have that element of surprise :)

Eugchriss.2046 · December 10, 2019

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:
@Thorstienn.1642 said:
@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:
@Ragnar.4257 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:FB is the best at everything

Ummm....... really?

@Leonidrex.5649 said:its better at 1v1 then duelists

It's a decent duelist, but it is by no means the best. Go and see how many FB's there are in the 1v1 tournaments being run. I'll give you a hint: it's not many.

And this is also misleading, because 'duelist' =/= 'sidenoder'. FB is a really bad sidenoder, as it has no escape-mechanic. As soon as it is caught in a 1v2, it's toast. It will never be able to compete for that role with the likes of Holo/SoulB/Mirage/SpellB because those all have the option to leave a fight when it's getting too hot.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:better at supporting then any other support

Undeniably true. The question is how to nerf without destroying other aspects of the class. I would suggest reducing the radius on the tome skills down, (mainly the #4 and #5) which right now are ludicrously HUGE and allow a single FB to simultaneously support several team-mates scattered around the place. Reduce the radius so they must prioritise who to support, and must risk coming in close to give support. That, and signet of mercy needs to just be removed/redesigned.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:has insane level of CC

Certainly, it has too much, but not really any more than other meta classes. CC needs bringing down across the board, it isn't a FB-specific issue.

Access to CC's, class specific (including elites, not including underwater or downed abilities)

Guardian: 13Warrior: 27Engineer: 23Ranger: 25Thief: 21Elementalist: 23Mesmer: 16Revenant: 9Necromancer: 9

Def wouldn't say they have an "insane level" of CC as Warrior is literally over double the amount, and the guardian had the 3rd lowest access to CC abilities out of all 9.

Not...spamability may be different (ie headshot)

That list is pointless, as a build cannot necessarily take even half of that, much less be even remotely useful, outside of maybe being a nuisance.

Not at all. The goal was to list the CC abilities each class has as it was claimed that Guardian has "insane CC" when in fact they dont. The list was to prove to be a reference point, which I hope you truly grasped.

He's right, we can t make any conclusions with this list. You just made a raw list of CC's per class without any context. For example, when I see "thief: 21 CC's", this is just impossible. When I count weapons (2x5), utilities + elites ( 5 ) and F-skills (2), I end up with maximum17 possibles slots. So they re is no way a thief can have access to 21 different CC's. In comparison with engineer (let' s say holo), if count weapon (5) + f-skills (4) + photon forge skills (5) + utilities, I m taking the worse case, so let' s say they use 4 different kits (4x5) + elite, worse case again is elixir S (5), I end up with maximum 39 possibles slots. We can conclude that a thief can have a maximum of 17 CC's at the same time whereas engi can have 23. So thief is below engi in term of CCs. Ofc this conclusion is probably wrong because that's just a lazy analysis witch didn't take into account stuff like the initiative system for example.That's the same reason why saying "guardian had the 3rd lowest access to CC abilities out of all 9" might be wrong, because you just come up with a conclusion based at best with on lazy analysis like mine.Another comparison would be: saying that X is faster than Y because X's race's time is smaller than Y's. We can't know that since we don't know what distance they both ran.

Thorstienn.1642 · December 10, 2019

@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:
@Thorstienn.1642 said:
@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:
@Thorstienn.1642 said:
@Bigpapasmurf.5623 said:
@Ragnar.4257 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:FB is the best at everything

Ummm....... really?

@Leonidrex.5649 said:its better at 1v1 then duelists

It's a decent duelist, but it is by no means the best. Go and see how many FB's there are in the 1v1 tournaments being run. I'll give you a hint: it's not many.

And this is also misleading, because 'duelist' =/= 'sidenoder'. FB is a really bad sidenoder, as it has no escape-mechanic. As soon as it is caught in a 1v2, it's toast. It will never be able to compete for that role with the likes of Holo/SoulB/Mirage/SpellB because those all have the option to leave a fight when it's getting too hot.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:better at supporting then any other support

Undeniably true. The question is how to nerf without destroying other aspects of the class. I would suggest reducing the radius on the tome skills down, (mainly the #4 and #5) which right now are ludicrously HUGE and allow a single FB to simultaneously support several team-mates scattered around the place. Reduce the radius so they must prioritise who to support, and must risk coming in close to give support. That, and signet of mercy needs to just be removed/redesigned.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:has insane level of CC

Certainly, it has too much, but not really any more than other meta classes. CC needs bringing down across the board, it isn't a FB-specific issue.

Access to CC's, class specific (including elites, not including underwater or downed abilities)

Guardian: 13Warrior: 27Engineer: 23Ranger: 25Thief: 21Elementalist: 23Mesmer: 16Revenant: 9Necromancer: 9

Def wouldn't say they have an "insane level" of CC as Warrior is literally over double the amount, and the guardian had the 3rd lowest access to CC abilities out of all 9.

Not...spamability may be different (ie headshot)

That list is pointless, as a build cannot necessarily take even half of that, much less be even remotely useful, outside of maybe being a nuisance.

Not at all. The goal was to list the CC abilities each class has as it was claimed that Guardian has "insane CC" when in fact they dont. The list was to prove to be a reference point, which I hope you truly grasped.

I do grasp what you are saying, however, as a blanket comparison it is still pointless. You have to look at the number of CC abilities that are actually present in the builds (eg the META), not the classes.This train of thought leads to the idea that thieves have insane mobility, stealth AND damge. Or Warriors have crazy sustain, CC, mobility AND damage, etc. The truth is every class has to sacrifice to gain (theoretically).Looking at warrior: insane mobilitiy=GS3, GS5, Sword/dagger2, bullsrush, shield4. insane cc=bullsrush, shield4(wait we just used those for mobility?), stomp, kick, bolas, Hammer(instead of GS or offhand?), mace3 and burst(but what about sword/dagger?), Rampage (now we talkin' OP). EtcI think you get the point?

I do, however I feel as you are missing something. My list wasn't about META, it was about the classes as it was specifically mentioned that guardian "has insane CC", so by it being stated guardian specifically, it was brought in as a class specific claim, thus my list was created to reference that there are other classes that have more "insane" CC, thus invalidating the initial claim. Not once do I mention about any trade-offs or anything as that point was clearly moot for the reasoning behind making the list.

Its ok if you didnt get it, nor if anyone got it really as the list is what it is and nothing else :)

Was fun tho seeing how many CC's each class have. Gave me some ideas on builds that ive started thoerycrafting on because of the list. :)

Id say "you never know, the next meta may be born because of this list" however I really dont care about meta, never had really despite some builds ive made that became meta at one point long time ago. Personally, I hope no more of my builds become meta as then when someone faces me, I have that element of surprise :)

I did understand your list. I however never presume to take players comments directly literally as many are false, case in point the poster using "guardian" or even "Firebrand" without specifying what build: after all this leads to "condi thieves are OP", when really, they weren't, one build was. I also always presume a poster IS talking about at least one (or a combination) of META builds, even though I dont personally run them.

Your list is interesting, though obviously impractical, Eugchrist points out a better way of listing it.

Was never an attack against you btw, just trying to point out an issue in the train of thought: a task that is fruitless on the forums. I do appreciate your attempted rebuttal against the concept however.

Leonidrex.5649 · December 10, 2019

@OutOfOrder.3719 said:I learned symbolbrand this season, as I used to be a Scourge main.(Dead PvP profession)
Although you can win some 1vs1 as firebrand, you still have to really outplay those fights as you are better in team fights. But the moment an enemy shows up, you can’t survive a 1vs2 and are forced to run away.
That’s the difference between a side noder and a team fighter. Just try to fight the firebrand outside the symbols even if it means the node is lost. It’s better to make the kill and wait, then to stand in the Guardians symbols. Dodge out of the symbols.
Condi Mirage and Fire Weaver are still over-performing way more than firebrand as it is easier to climb and carry your team.
It’s very hard to carry your team as a guardian or a necro. I’m afraid this may be more of a learn to play issue rather than a balance issue.

you realize that your broken pvp spec can just run into sidenode, vomit symbols onto it. decape and leave?Cmirage cant carry shit, it has no kill potential, and has mostly losing matchups into anything.

Ralkuth.1456 · December 10, 2019

@Sailorz.4270 said:
@Sailorz.4270 said:Mobility is the only reason you don't see them more, and if they did have better mobility it would be THE carry class bar-none. If the trade-off had to be FB got more mobility in exchange for some kind of nerf to take away from the effectiveness of the things in their kit, I'd take it.

So you want to reduce FB's support capacity and increase it's mobility. So you want to turn it into a warrior?

What is it with people and wanting to make every class a generic clone of every other class? Why are you all so against classes having unique playstyles and being good at certain things and bad at certain others?

Thief? Too much mobility and stealth, make it more like a warrior plz.Guardian? Too much support, make it more like a warrior plz.Mesmer? Too much trickery stuff, make it more like a warrior plz.Ranger? Too much pets and bows, make it more like a warrior plz.Engi? Too much combos and tools, make it more like a warrior plz.Necro? Too much condi and corrupt, make it more like a warrior plz.

I didn't specifically say nerf the support of FB, I mentioned it a couple times that it was the best support spec and I really did not mind that it is a strong support, I'd like more support specs to be playable including FB.

Not sure how reducing support and giving it more mobility makes it a warrior though. Some abilities are similar on weapon sets but guardian has been a lot burstier and quick in playstyle not relying on stuns / setups like warrior does, it's a lot more risky in general and can easily be deleted (I'm talking about the meditation Hammer-GS & sword/focus builds here mainly to compare to warrior).

The distribution of power for FB in general would be (uh, "kitten"?) to balance, it has the worst mobility in the game so of course to off-set that they have to make everything else in it's kit over the top, so the only way to rebalance it is to give it some more mobility so when they tone down other things the spec won't become irrelevant. I really don't want FB to get kicked out of the meta because having your class get turned upside down is really lame, I know how it feels especially recently (R.I.P. Rifle Holo).

Hi, I was a trash r250 FB. Just here to chat. I'm fine with most changes.The only thing left for me to do now is get rewarded with boxes for sperg gameplay.That is to say, I'm not trying to antagonise you. I play everything (lately it's trash Deadeye) and so what if FB gets completely removed from significance? Players adapt and there's always something else to play.

Nerf if needed. Though I'd like to point out that there's another issue that compounds the value of Firebrand, and that is class-stacking - as well as how good it is to stack Firebrands; this has been brought up before.

There's 2 ways about tackling balance issues: you either (1) try to compensate for it in the present or (2) wait for a more favourable environment where it doesn't exist. I don't think there's ever going to be a perfect patch where it puts you at the top without having to play around something you don't like.

I don't think using Core Guardian as an example really relates to Firebrand very well - DPS FBs are characterised very heavily by the Tomes, Axe and Symbol traits, giving it control and sustain as long as its hefty CDs aren't dry; Core Guardian is pretty much all about frontloaded mobility and burst damage. You're also using a very specific, perhaps 1v1 scenario to describe the difference in their damage patterns.My interpretation of Ragnar's reply to you was that by giving the Guardian more mobility and nerfing its other tools - most notably team support elements - it would make the Guardian overlap more with the role of a Warrior to be a sidenoder (with minor teamfight potential + minor support if Core Warrior).So in my opinion it's more about homogenised roles and how much homogeneity is good for the game.

I do not agree that the only way for Guardian forward is to give it more mobility; this conclusion is drawn and explained in the specific context of comparing mobility and "everything else", which doesn't seem completely like a convincing way (in my opinion, of course) to weigh their significance. Perhaps there are other ways to support that goes off on a tangent from what Guardian has now. Perhaps there are other ways for it to have utility. Perhaps we're one weapon buff away from creating something interesting and viable without ever having to confront the mobility issues, because there is enough value.

Yes, ANet balancing is hilariously dysfunctional. Yes, I'm spending way too much gems to support a game where (a bit less than) half the time I get bent over and gaped by some shining examples of engaging game design. But I still believe we need hope, just that tiny flickering ember of wishful thinking that ANet can give us enough content before all the new friends I meet become offline friends again ~~widepeepoSad~~

Math.5123 · December 10, 2019

If you spec a Firebrand into a duelist (Mender Zealbrand), it should per balance beat other duelists that has more mobility. Obviously VERY oversimplified.

If you have a class that has the ability to disengage every bad 1v1, it should not be the top dueler. If you have a spec that has access to great teamfighting, it should not have insane mobility and dueling potential.

Yes, by all means. Nerf Firebrand, I won't miss it. But the excuse for Firebrand being a strong (not the best) duelist is it's trash mobility.

Dantheman.3589 · December 10, 2019

@Ralkuth.1456 said:
@Sailorz.4270 said:
@Sailorz.4270 said:Mobility is the only reason you don't see them more, and if they did have better mobility it would be THE carry class bar-none. If the trade-off had to be FB got more mobility in exchange for some kind of nerf to take away from the effectiveness of the things in their kit, I'd take it.