What in gods name hapend to wvw/eotm

[Genlog.4983]

@Chaba.5410 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Chaba.5410 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Chaba.5410 said:

@"KeyOrion.9506" said:After the legendary backpiece was launched, Edge of the Mist emptied of players wishing for said item. However once they gained the item and returned to Edge of the Mist...well we did notice that the full player base never returned as many player's ...at that time returned to playing full on EBG and the Borderlands. The idea was to pull in players from PvE into Wvw and for a short time it did work. We had que's on all maps again. However once again population started to dwindle down. Most came to get the backpiece, mount, or even the WvW legendary armor. But the current maps is like you eating the same food day after day after day after day after day after day....pretty soon you get tired of eating the same thing and pretty much go for a different food for a bit of time. Without a constant change in new "Exclusive only skins from WvW" or new maps, your not going to see a large infusion of new players. And the old players...well we either to stubborn to quit, or some got so tired of the same old muss and fuss they up and quit.

EOTM started emptying when XP was converted to WXP.

But that would derail the narrative....

Well, while EOTM no longer was an efficient means of leveling up a new toon, Anet had to nerf WXP gain in EOTM too iirc.

Anyway, my bet is that the majority of players who played EOTM and are still playing this game are playing metas in PvE maps and doing other things in this game that are more rewarding/efficient than WvW. They were never really the kind of player who was going to get into WvW. Us WvW vets like to say that EOTM pulled away a lot of players from WvW, but we forget it also pulled away a lot of players from other PvE maps and that's probably the real reason rewards were nerfed in EOTM as they were.

Can’t argue this in the least.

There are too many people trying to say that pips ruined EoTM which is a falsehood. It died when Karma and regular xp was Removed (short of times of course). Your original post would derail that narrative.

People are saying pips ruined EOTM because they are comparing the rewards between WvW and EOTM

after

the fact of pips and thinking that they themselves would go play EOTM instead of WvW if there were pips.

But that still won't necessarily bring the PvE masses back to EOTM since by now this game has other more rewarding/efficient PvE activities

. Pip reward chests aren't necessarily the best way to obtain certain rewards.

but in my few eotm was much more fun to play then wvw its beter if anet brings back the good old daysa game is about fun and players love eotm for it and the rewards it was always alot of players there

[Genlog.4983]

@Sovereign.1093 said:pips ruined eotm

before the pipes was beter when you get tons of exp that was goodfun place to lvl your alts fast

[Sovereign.1093]

@Genlog.4983 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:pips ruined eotm

before the pipes was beter when you get tons of exp that was goodfun place to lvl your alts fast

hehe, now its all about gathering the tomes

[Chaba.5410]

@Genlog.4983 said:

@Chaba.5410 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Chaba.5410 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@Chaba.5410 said:

@"KeyOrion.9506" said:After the legendary backpiece was launched, Edge of the Mist emptied of players wishing for said item. However once they gained the item and returned to Edge of the Mist...well we did notice that the full player base never returned as many player's ...at that time returned to playing full on EBG and the Borderlands. The idea was to pull in players from PvE into Wvw and for a short time it did work. We had que's on all maps again. However once again population started to dwindle down. Most came to get the backpiece, mount, or even the WvW legendary armor. But the current maps is like you eating the same food day after day after day after day after day after day....pretty soon you get tired of eating the same thing and pretty much go for a different food for a bit of time. Without a constant change in new "Exclusive only skins from WvW" or new maps, your not going to see a large infusion of new players. And the old players...well we either to stubborn to quit, or some got so tired of the same old muss and fuss they up and quit.

EOTM started emptying when XP was converted to WXP.

But that would derail the narrative....

Well, while EOTM no longer was an efficient means of leveling up a new toon, Anet had to nerf WXP gain in EOTM too iirc.

Anyway, my bet is that the majority of players who played EOTM and are still playing this game are playing metas in PvE maps and doing other things in this game that are more rewarding/efficient than WvW. They were never really the kind of player who was going to get into WvW. Us WvW vets like to say that EOTM pulled away a lot of players from WvW, but we forget it also pulled away a lot of players from other PvE maps and that's probably the real reason rewards were nerfed in EOTM as they were.

Can’t argue this in the least.

There are too many people trying to say that pips ruined EoTM which is a falsehood. It died when Karma and regular xp was Removed (short of times of course). Your original post would derail that narrative.

People are saying pips ruined EOTM because they are comparing the rewards between WvW and EOTM

after

the fact of pips and thinking that they themselves would go play EOTM instead of WvW if there were pips.

But that still won't necessarily bring the PvE masses back to EOTM since by now this game has other more rewarding/efficient PvE activities

. Pip reward chests aren't necessarily the best way to obtain certain rewards.

but in my few eotm was much more fun to play then wvw its beter if anet brings back the good old daysa game is about fun and players love eotm for it and the rewards it was always alot of players there

You right, players sure loved the rewards because they left after rewards were nerfed. EOTM stopped being fun for them without the rewards.

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

just saying, tomes are rather a low worth thing. takes not much to mass them up. boom new char leveled up in seconds, or rather "yay new bank slot". it's fine since it pays the spirit banners, but leveling up stuff is really no problem in gw2.so imho it is good that there is no pvE exp gain in EotM.

the newbies start anyways not there, because for warkitty EotM is not needed. new players usually are to be found downed of dead at the frontlines of the home borders or EBG ;P

[Sovereign.1093]

@"kamikharzeeh.8016" said:just saying, tomes are rather a low worth thing. takes not much to mass them up. boom new char leveled up in seconds, or rather "yay new bank slot". it's fine since it pays the spirit banners, but leveling up stuff is really no problem in gw2.so imho it is good that there is no pvE exp gain in EotM.

the newbies start anyways not there, because for warkitty EotM is not needed. new players usually are to be found downed of dead at the frontlines of the home borders or EBG ;P

mmm newbies flesh

[Electes.8642]

@"Chaba.5410" said:People are saying pips ruined EOTM because they are comparing the rewards between WvW and EOTM after the fact of pips and thinking that they themselves would go play EOTM instead of WvW if there were pips. But that still won't necessarily bring the PvE masses back to EOTM since by now this game has other more rewarding/efficient PvE activities. Pip reward chests aren't necessarily the best way to obtain certain rewards.

As an old EotM player and long term commander, I have to disagree with this. It isn't that pips in and of themselves ruined the game-mode, but it certainly was the last nail in the coffin. No gliding, no mounts, and no pips (which meant no real rewards) all soured a lot of EotM players' views on the game-mode, especially its health moving into the future. EotM, for a good 2 or so years, was a healthy game-mode that was doing its own thing. Somebody like me loved fights and so that's what I did for a long time. But once the natural population decline started speeding up with the above triumvirate of no gliding, no mounts, and no pips coming into play (or not, actually), the game-mode that I, and many others, played for fun rather than rewards, just wasn't fun enough anymore to justify coming back in. Again, did pips in themselves ruin EotM? Yes and no. It's funny because a lot of the old WvW elitists when WvW was perfectly populous and healthy hated EotM and its relative success, treating it like a cancer holding the One True Game-Mode back. Now, WvW is getting the EotM treatment and guess what? Continued player decline, continued decline in player quality and commander acumen, continued bungling of class balance by Anet; the list goes on.

In my mind, Anet has systematically amputated almost every major and minor game-mode in GW2. Despite what some others might think, EotM was good for the game and provided a pretty substantial playground for players to play in. The game is worse off without it, and it's not the fault of EotM players or WvW players that both game-modes are now in the gutter. It's Anet's for not realizing what they had in both game-modes and them refusing to take the proper steps in keeping up with the game. Anet didn't, and aren't, doing this, and so now everyone is suffering, including the story-line PvE folks. Nobody's winning right now. At some point it's not about rewards. I will play, despite poor rewards, if the game is still fun. This was the case in the past. It's barely the case now since I've become a "proper" WvW player the last few years.

Anyways, cheers. I think we all just want WvW to be better, whether we disagree on the game's history, or its future. Hopefully there is a future, at the very least...

[Strider Pj.2193]

@Electes.8642 said:

@"Chaba.5410" said:People are saying pips ruined EOTM because they are comparing the rewards between WvW and EOTM

after

the fact of pips and thinking that they themselves would go play EOTM instead of WvW if there were pips.

But that still won't necessarily bring the PvE masses back to EOTM since by now this game has other more rewarding/efficient PvE activities

. Pip reward chests aren't necessarily the best way to obtain certain rewards.

As an old EotM player and long term commander, I have to disagree with this. It isn't that pips in and of themselves ruined the game-mode, but it certainly was the last nail in the coffin. No gliding, no mounts, and no pips (which meant no real rewards) all soured a lot of EotM players' views on the game-mode, especially its health moving into the future. EotM, for a good 2 or so years, was a healthy game-mode that was doing its own thing. Somebody like me loved fights and so that's what I did for a long time. But once the natural population decline started speeding up with the above triumvirate of no gliding, no mounts, and no pips coming into play (or not, actually), the game-mode that I, and many others, played for fun rather than rewards, just wasn't fun enough anymore to justify coming back in. Again, did pips in themselves ruin EotM? Yes and no. It's funny because a lot of the old WvW elitists when WvW was perfectly populous and healthy hated EotM and its relative success, treating it like a cancer holding the One True Game-Mode back. Now, WvW is getting the EotM treatment and guess what? Continued player decline, continued decline in player quality and commander acumen, continued bungling of class balance by Anet; the list goes on.

In my mind, Anet has systematically amputated almost every major and minor game-mode in GW2. Despite what some others might think, EotM was good for the game and provided a pretty substantial playground for players to play in. The game is worse off without it, and it's not the fault of EotM players or WvW players that both game-modes are now in the gutter. It's Anet's for not realizing what they had in both game-modes and them refusing to take the proper steps in keeping up with the game. Anet didn't, and aren't, doing this, and so now everyone is suffering, including the story-line PvE folks. Nobody's winning right now. At some point it's not about rewards. I will play, despite poor rewards, if the game is still fun. This was the case in the past. It's barely the case now since I've become a "proper" WvW player the last few years.

Anyways, cheers. I think we all just want WvW to be better, whether we disagree on the game's history, or its future. Hopefully there is a future, at the very least...

Gliding mounts and pips eh?

That just destroyed your whole argument. EoTM died before any of them.

EoTM started to die in April of 2016 when leveling xp was removed. Gliding wasn’t added to WvW until aug 2017, pips in jun of 2017. And of course mounts is recent.

Were you one of the 5 people left in EoTM after the first few months after xp was removed?

[Sovereign.1093]

eotm died when pips came to be

[Timelord.8190]

Edge of the mist was a failure to begin with. Most of the people playing there was just playing to level up their characters or getting wvw ranks faster. It was just a mindless train. It's just as bad as Desert Borderlands.

[Sovereign.1093]

@Timelord.8190 said:Edge of the mist was a failure to begin with. Most of the people playing there was just playing to level up their characters or getting wvw ranks faster. It was just a mindless train. It's just as bad as Desert Borderlands.

desert was worse, was the reason i first quit. eotm had spunk. it wasn't server based.

[Voltekka.2375]

Eotm died when pve rewards were nerfed. Suprise surprise. That alone is testimony enough about how the map was exploited. Pips gliding mounts are irrelevant. If they were, wvw would be permaqueued with people.Guess what. Its not.

[Straegen.2938]

They gutted the EotM rewards which killed it mainly because it was mostly PvE with solid rewards.

As for WvW in general, this is an old-er game. Natural attrition to other games reduced WvW population more than anything else. It is difficult to attract new players to an old game and most move on after months/years into new games. The only thing keeping WvW on life support is that nothing else is really out there and certainly nothing better ATM. WvW was always a minority game mode for GW2 and likely has always been losing money for ANet which is why PvE gets 99% of the attention.

[Electes.8642]

@Strider Pj.2193 said:Gliding mounts and pips eh?

That just destroyed your whole argument. EoTM died before any of them.

EoTM started to die in April of 2016 when leveling xp was removed. Gliding wasn’t added to WvW until aug 2017, pips in jun of 2017. And of course mounts is recent.

Were you one of the 5 people left in EoTM after the first few months after xp was removed?

Well, seeing as I was a no-lifer who put in several thousand hours into EotM almost exclusively, I'm pretty confident in my opinions about the game-mode. I don't get the sense from you that you were a dedicated EotM player, at any point, so I'm not sure why you feel the need to pontificate about a game-mode you aren't well-versed in. As a commander, I was still regularly leading at least 30+ people throughout 2016 and into early 2017. Past that period of time, the game-mode laid down on its death bed. For me, the game-mode wasn't dead until I couldn't fight anybody anymore, couldn't lead more than a few people, couldn't cap anything efficiently, and so on. None of those things were wiped off the table completely until pips were introduced. The contrast between the EotM before pips, which was already slowly dying, and the EotM after pips is pretty stark. Did the removal of xp hurt EotM? Yeah, no shit. But the game-mode was still healthy afterwards because not every player who played EotM was in it for the levels, as the misinformed stereotype might lead one to believe. People still capped for karma, people still dueled north of Needle, people (like me and many others) still enjoyed zerging against the other big groups. However, all this gameplay pretty quickly evaporated when pips were introduced in WvW, but not EotM. I think this ought to be very clear to anyone who played the game-mode for more than a few sittings.

[Bassdeff.1895]

It was an admirable attempt at large scale PvP but WvW was an abomination at launch, it was a dying abomination when I quit the game 3 years ago. Just recently got back in the game and WvW is an abomination on life support but with better rewards. I was a failure because they didn't put the resources to do it right and it is not going to get any better. Personanlly, I think the idea should have never made it past the drafting table. It was and is resources that could be put into sPvP and PvE instead of a halfassed attempt at large scale pvp. Think of all the content that could have been made for PvE and sPvP if all that time and money wasn't spent on a failure.

[Strider Pj.2193]

@Bassdeff.1895 said:It was an admirable attempt at large scale PvP but WvW was an abomination at launch, it was a dying abomination when I quit the game 3 years ago. Just recently got back in the game and WvW is an abomination on life support but with better rewards. I was a failure because they didn't put the resources to do it right and it is not going to get any better. Personanlly, I think the idea should have never made it past the drafting table. It was and is resources that could be put into sPvP and PvE instead of a kitten attempt at large scale pvp. Think of all the content that could have been made for PvE and sPvP if all that time and money wasn't spent on a failure.

Out of curiosity, other than one map addition, what was truly unique to WvW that was added after launch?

Reward tracks were copy pasta from sPvP, as well as skirmish tracks.

I guess a case could be made for shield generators which are WvW specific.

Siege has been in place since launch, servers haven’t changed, combat system has been tweaked primarily to appease PvE, mounts were an afterthought from PvE, pips were added for sPvP, WxP has been around since launch..

Other than server space (which was also PvE specific since launch) what added cost and resources that WERENT copy pasta from sPvP or PvE have they spent?

I am curious to see what you attribute to WvW?

[Chaba.5410]

@Electes.8642 said:The contrast between the EotM before pips, which was already slowly dying, and the EotM after pips is pretty stark. Did the removal of xp hurt EotM? Yeah, no kitten. But the game-mode was still healthy afterwards because not every player who played EotM was in it for the levels, as the misinformed stereotype might lead one to believe. People still capped for karma, people still dueled north of Needle, people (like me and many others) still enjoyed zerging against the other big groups. However, all this gameplay pretty quickly evaporated when pips were introduced in WvW, but not EotM. I think this ought to be very clear to anyone who played the game-mode for more than a few sittings.

What you're saying is that people quit EOTM because of WvW skirmish tickets, the only unique thing that pip chests provide. Kind of weird how WvW skirmish tickets is the only thing that would make people no longer care about playing a game mode they weren't playing for rewards for in the first place, huh?

[Strider Pj.2193]

@Chaba.5410 said:

@Electes.8642 said:The contrast between the EotM before pips, which was already slowly dying, and the EotM after pips is pretty stark. Did the removal of xp hurt EotM? Yeah, no kitten. But the game-mode was still healthy afterwards because not every player who played EotM was in it for the levels, as the misinformed stereotype might lead one to believe. People still capped for karma, people still dueled north of Needle, people (like me and many others) still enjoyed zerging against the other big groups. However, all this gameplay pretty quickly evaporated when pips were introduced in WvW, but not EotM. I think this ought to be very clear to anyone who played the game-mode for more than a few sittings.

What you're saying is that people quit EOTM because of WvW skirmish tickets, the only unique thing that pip chests provide. Kind of weird how WvW skirmish tickets is the only thing that would make people no longer care about playing a game mode they weren't playing for rewards for in the first place, huh?

Must be fake news Chaba

[Sovereign.1093]

@Electes.8642 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:Gliding mounts and pips eh?

That just destroyed your whole argument. EoTM died before any of them.

EoTM started to die in April of 2016 when leveling xp was removed. Gliding wasn’t added to WvW until aug 2017, pips in jun of 2017. And of course mounts is recent.

Were you one of the 5 people left in EoTM after the first few months after xp was removed?

Well, seeing as I was a no-lifer who put in several thousand hours into EotM almost exclusively, I'm pretty confident in my opinions about the game-mode. I don't get the sense from you that you were a dedicated EotM player, at any point, so I'm not sure why you feel the need to pontificate about a game-mode you aren't well-versed in. As a commander, I was still regularly leading at least 30+ people throughout 2016 and into early 2017. Past that period of time, the game-mode laid down on its death bed. For me, the game-mode wasn't dead until I couldn't fight anybody anymore, couldn't lead more than a few people, couldn't cap anything efficiently, and so on. None of those things were wiped off the table completely until pips were introduced. The contrast between the EotM before pips, which was already slowly dying, and the EotM after pips is pretty stark. Did the removal of xp hurt EotM? Yeah, no kitten. But the game-mode was still healthy afterwards because not every player who played EotM was in it for the levels, as the misinformed stereotype might lead one to believe. People still capped for karma, people still dueled north of Needle, people (like me and many others) still enjoyed zerging against the other big groups. However, all this gameplay pretty quickly evaporated when pips were introduced in WvW, but not EotM. I think this ought to be very clear to anyone who played the game-mode for more than a few sittings.

yes. :/ they killed wvw then killed eotm to force us in a mode thats dead because no tournaments. :/

[Sovereign.1093]

@Bassdeff.1895 said:It was an admirable attempt at large scale PvP but WvW was an abomination at launch, it was a dying abomination when I quit the game 3 years ago. Just recently got back in the game and WvW is an abomination on life support but with better rewards. I was a failure because they didn't put the resources to do it right and it is not going to get any better. Personanlly, I think the idea should have never made it past the drafting table. It was and is resources that could be put into sPvP and PvE instead of a kitten attempt at large scale pvp. Think of all the content that could have been made for PvE and sPvP if all that time and money wasn't spent on a failure.

i can see sense in spvp now because it was equal nos. but i like wvw. twas chaotic and long term goal being end game when tournaments was in

[Electes.8642]

@"Chaba.5410" said:What you're saying is that people quit EOTM because of WvW skirmish tickets, the only unique thing that pip chests provide. Kind of weird how WvW skirmish tickets is the only thing that would make people no longer care about playing a game mode they weren't playing for rewards for in the first place, huh?

I recognize that on the surface the two don't compute. I own that. However, I've not been arguing that EotM failed because of pips in and of themselves. Rather, when pips were introduced they represented Anet's true position toward "us" (duelers, ktrainers, fighters, w/e in EotM), which was - and is - "lul, go fuck yourself, play wvw." What fucking infuriates me, as I said earlier, is the fact that Anet is giving WvW the EotM treatment now. Okay, ArenisNet, I started playing WvW. Now you don't want us playing WvW, apparently, but shallow PvE content. I mean, c'mon. Despite some changes, WvW is still suffering from stagnant/underwhelming rewards, pathetic attempts at class balance, an unwillingness from Anet to truly overhaul server population because transfers I guess make them money, and so on. I still remember that cringe moment around HoT's launch when Mo pulled a Blizzard's "don't you guys have phones?" and said, "don't you guys play PvE?" For me, fucking nope. I play fractals with guildies and friends, some festival things, and so on, but I don't enjoy it like I do (did, really) WvW. I'm running out of places to enjoy playing the fucking game in. EotM went out the window for me, now WvW is quickly being shuffled to that very same window and it's only a matter of time before it's falling a couple stories and hitting hard concrete. Good thing we've got ZERO new fractals and raids in development to look forward to + brain-dead story content that has gotten more shallow and anemic with every release. Things are really looking up, herp derp.

But, yeah. Pips.

[Electes.8642]

@Sovereign.1093 said:yes. :/ they killed wvw then killed eotm to force us in a mode thats dead because no tournaments. :/

Tournaments were and are overrated, in my opinion. Good for the game? Yes. Made the game-mode? No. Bringing them back won't revert or even stall the decline that WvW's been experiencing the last several years. Thing is, I'm not sure if there is anything Anet can do that will revive the game-mode. I think the game has hemorrhaged too many players and getting them back with small improvements will likely not be enough. The game can't even keep its PvE crowd together, so yeah.

[Sovereign.1093]

@Electes.8642 said:

@Sovereign.1093 said:yes. :/ they killed wvw then killed eotm to force us in a mode thats dead because no tournaments. :/

Tournaments were and are overrated, in my opinion. Good for the game? Yes. Made the game-mode? No. Bringing them back won't revert or even stall the decline that WvW's been experiencing the last several years. Thing is, I'm not sure if there is anything Anet can do that will revive the game-mode. I think the game has hemorrhaged too many players and getting them back with small improvements will likely not be enough. The game can't even keep its PvE crowd together, so yeah.

i have no argument against you. i believe the game mode is dying. i find the current setup - cheaper siege x upgrades x mounts good for the tournament where back then we had to spend gold for each and everything, even repairs and change of traits.

[Chaba.5410]

@"Electes.8642" said:What kitten infuriates me, as I said earlier, is the fact that Anet is giving WvW the EotM treatment now. Okay, ArenisNet, I started playing WvW. Now you don't want us playing WvW, apparently, but shallow PvE content. I mean, c'mon. Despite some changes, WvW is still suffering from stagnant/underwhelming rewards, pathetic attempts at class balance, an unwillingness from Anet to truly overhaul server population because transfers I guess make them money, and so on.

What do you mean "now"? WvW has been given the EOTM treatment before EOTM even existed. And that was my point about the differences in the playing populations of WvW vs. EOTM. Maybe you played EOTM for more than just the rewards like a WvW player, but the primary population of EOTM at its height played for the rewards because it was a replacement for the Queensdale champ train. And they left when rewards were nerfed and went back to PvE. The WvW population didn't leave because of rewards (it never even had originally) - that population leaves because of the PvP content which is why its taken WvW much longer to die off than EOTM. The pips were the final nail in the coffin for EOTM, but EOTM had lost most of its population before then and pips won't bring it back.

[Electes.8642]

@"Chaba.5410" said:What do you mean "now"? WvW has been given the EOTM treatment before EOTM even existed. And that was my point about the differences in the playing populations of WvW vs. EOTM. Maybe you played EOTM for more than just the rewards like a WvW player, but the primary population of EOTM at its height played for the rewards because it was a replacement for the Queensdale champ train. And they left when rewards were nerfed and went back to PvE. The WvW population didn't leave because of rewards (it never even had originally) - that population leaves because of the PvP content which is why its taken WvW much longer to die off than EOTM.

I mean now because I would consider some of the "recent" changes in WvW to be attempts to help the game-mode. Obviously they've not been enough.

The pips were the final nail in the coffin for EOTM, but EOTM had lost most of its population before then and pips won't bring it back.

Well, I'm glad we finally agree. Not sure if we ever did disagree, since you've just restated my original thesis.