23k+ Deaths Judgement

[kanjiyakushi.4372]

So like on a class with infinite stealth why is there a skill that can deal over 23k damage and can be almost spammed (the higher damage hits can’t be “spammed” but the skill can still be used often and hit high each time even if it’s not that specific damage output). Why’s that a thing and how can a class counter something they can’t see if they don’t have any reflects or stealth themselves. Especially when they sneak up on you with stealth and you don’t even know they’re there.

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

Show us how it's done then, it has visual/audio tells. You was obviously marked for a while and still failed to dodge DJ.

Los counters it.

[Ralkuth.1456]

Personal expectations on how this goes:

My opinion is that your opinion is wrong, and all I want to hear is candid support on my stance, which I tend to exaggerate to milk my victim status.

Any other opinion that deviates from my expectations is not candid.

Oh you blatantly disagree? You must be a [class] main, enjoy your gameplay when I get it nerfed. Because I am that important.

[Avatar.3568]

Don't be rude, the guy ask how to counter an he did get his answer

[Ralkuth.1456]

Fair enough. Was bad of me to assume.

Usually DJ’s can’t hit that high, without very visible setup from Rifle 3 might stacking, and using Berserker’s Amulet, which makes it extremely glassy. Deadeyes are very initiative-hungry, and trade in their Thief mobility for frontloaded damage.

You can anticipate the Deadeye - you know it is in-game using the team roster, you can check for the Thief icon on the minimap, and you can evaluate whether you are a priority target based on how much value you bring and how squishy you are. Awareness of the 3D view you have and the information on your minimap is important. You want to know where the more mobile Roamers are possibly as much as you can, so you don’t get “jumped”.

You need to save a defensive when you get Marked, or if you can see the Deadeye coming, mark it for others with Call Target or pressure it yourself. If you want to deal with Deadeye effectively, you can form more specific questions based on your class/build matchup vs a DE. Players can then give you suggestions specific to your situation.

Deadeyes can be dealt with by other Roamers, and notably most of the more classical Thief specs. Some maps are better for the Deadeye, such as the Skyhammer.

You can also try to figure out what build the Thief is running based on whether it has Mug damage (Deadly Arts), or it has Venoms after opening from stealth (Shadow Arts). If it has none of those, it could be running pure damage from Critical Strikes. The melee set is also important to take note of; if the Deadeye camps Rifle and sets up visibly in rage of you, you can just LoS it or go on No-Port spots to avoid Quickness Pistol Whips.

[alain.1659]

Which what class do you want to counter it? There are some that can counter it easily, and some not so much as they are weak vs ranged attacks. Audio tells are important in the game so you need to listen carefully. Visual tells are also important yet it depends on your reflex. There are specific traits, amulets and skills that can help you vs an instakill build but again it mostly depends on your reflexes.

I can advice you to use designated spots that cannot be sneaked upon from 4 directions but only 1-2. Also ask a friend to practice vs a deadeye. Contrary to the common belief there are really cool people in spvp area that can help you practice. It is not easy to stay calm under hard pressure so practice might help you in that too (it really did for me back in the day).

As I cannot see your message history, i cannot find the profession you play so my comments are general in nature. So please forgive me if you already know the information provided in this post.

[storm.3120]

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:Show us how it's done then, it has visual/audio tells. You was obviously marked for a while and still failed to dodge DJ.

Los counters it.There is a way to make immobilize-DJ with 3 malice in 1 go. Stealth -> kneel->mark(signet)->cast 2 from kneel and insta 1. Right after immoblize comes DJ. Crit strikes are enough to make it a death sentence for most if not all builds.About sound and visuals, for some reasons on multiple PC's I always had the same problem, in this game sounds came too late compared to what happened on my screen, the same was with stealth, people could hit me for a solid second while completely stealthed and were untargetable (by that time I had avg 60 ping, pretty good pc).Seen it on ytube people vids as well, so I wasnt alone, good game, isnt it ? :wink:

[ugrakarma.9416]

just run, preferable near obstacles to force DE move... notice that most maps are added obstacles near to capture points, specially the coliseum.

[Dantheman.3589]

For 1 I honestly wouldn’t claim it’s spammable and to be 23k you are 100% going against a full glass cannon build. I know the fact that they are in stealth and it do it makes it seem impossible to beat. As a full glass with stealth with DJ which isn’t spammable u should find lots of counter play like just realizing they are there and downing them first, or learn how to dodge it then just do damage. The amount of counter ability depends are you spec to, if your a condition thief it’s ez just spam aoe on them and they will 90% of the time die. But anyway gl learning how to counter them maybe play it yourself to see how high of an elo You can get with something that unreliable, you’ll also learn how to counter it I’m pretty sure

[shion.2084]

For me the problem with the Dead Eye, is that I don't know when to dodge. I mean the indicator can stay on me for what seems like 30 seconds or so and I can neither spot the Dead Eye, nor know which side of an object I'm to hide on. So how do you time when the kill shot is coming to know to dodge or reflect? (does reflect work against their kill shot?)

[Blocki.4931]

@shion.2084 said:For me the problem with the Dead Eye, is that I don't know when to dodge. I mean the indicator can stay on me for what seems like 30 seconds or so and I can neither spot the Dead Eye, nor know which side of an object I'm to hide on. So how do you time when the kill shot is coming to know to dodge or reflect? (does reflect work against their kill shot?)

You can block or reflect Death's Judgment and you can easily identify it by the sound the shot makes. Turn up some of your settings and listen for it.

[ZDragon.3046]

@"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:Show us how it's done then, it has visual/audio tells. You was obviously marked for a while and still failed to dodge DJ.

Los counters it.

A DJ done at less than 400 range is not reactively dodge-able.A big part of what makes the visual / audio tell work is the fact that its designed to be done at ranged giving you the time it takes the projectile to get from A to B to react. If you lower the distance from A to B it considerable decreases the chance that someone can reactively dodge the DJ even with the audio tell. This is not even factoring in quickness or how fast a persons PC might render a player out of stealth based on what else is going on around them.

So while in alot of cases yes you can totally react to it. The shooter can technically make it nearly impossible to react to with no tell if they choose to. Its kind of a similar case for mesmer burst when people say "Just look for mirror blade and dodge" the reality is you wont see it if they blink or close the distance before hand.

I can under stand the OP's post in terms of not being able to react in some cases because of this. But a 23k DJ sounds a bit unrealistic unless in terms of damage done. I dont think ive seen a DJ hit for 23k in a long time even if the thief has full malice.

[shion.2084]

What is the tell by the way... a phrase or something? Or some gunshot sound?

[Leonidrex.5649]

@shion.2084 said:What is the tell by the way... a phrase or something? Or some gunshot sound?

your screen turns grey and you get tilted, thats the first tell :D

[Moradorin.6217]

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:Show us how it's done then, it has visual/audio tells. You was obviously marked for a while and still failed to dodge DJ.

Los counters it.

A DJ done at less than 400 range is not reactively dodge-able.A big part of what makes the visual / audio tell work is the fact that its designed to be done at ranged giving you the time it takes the projectile to get from A to B to react. If you lower the distance from A to B it considerable decreases the chance that someone can reactively dodge the DJ even with the audio tell. This is not even factoring in quickness or how fast a persons PC might render a player out of stealth based on what else is going on around them.

So while in alot of cases yes you can totally react to it. The shooter can technically make it nearly impossible to react to with no tell if they choose to. Its kind of a similar case for mesmer burst when people say "Just look for mirror blade and dodge" the reality is you wont see it if they blink or close the distance before hand.

I can under stand the OP's post in terms of not being able to react in some cases because of this. But a 23k DJ sounds a bit unrealistic unless in terms of damage done. I dont think ive seen a DJ hit for 23k in a long time even if the thief has full malice.

I totally agree. Some times its 100% possible to counter a DE and cc/reflect/burst them away, however, as you point out if they play it the way they want they can delete a player from max range without any "useful" tell If they have full malice and time and position well but I havn't been hit for 23k that I recall. That said, it seems pretty common for it to hit in the 15k-20k range which is plenty in pvp.

[kanjiyakushi.4372]

Sorry I didn’t specify my class. I’m a scourge. Low mobility no blocks no reflects, etc. Anyway it’s hard to use line of sight when your immobilized and 90% of your hp is gone in a single shot. And during mid fights it they don’t even have to generate malice for the higher damage hits on you specifically do they? I know generally how it works but I could definitely study a bit more.

[kanjiyakushi.4372]

I know I’m a pretty glassy build, but 23k isn’t rare for me. Usually I get hit for less, like 17k but I’ve also been hit for upwards of 27k in one instance.

[Curennos.9307]

@kanjiyakushi.4372 said:Sorry I didn’t specify my class. I’m a scourge. Low mobility no blocks no reflects, etc. Anyway it’s hard to use line of sight when your immobilized and 90% of your hp is gone in a single shot. And during mid fights it they don’t even have to generate malice for the higher damage hits on you specifically do they? I know generally how it works but I could definitely study a bit more.

What utilities are you running?

Reaper runs wurm + that other teleport-to-start-location/cleanse. They're basically required in this meta, as mobility is king and necro needs them to re-sustain and deal with specs like...well, DE. Might be worth giving them a shot on scourge.

[Ralkuth.1456]

@"kanjiyakushi.4372" said:Sorry I didn’t specify my class. I’m a scourge. Low mobility no blocks no reflects, etc. Anyway it’s hard to use line of sight when your immobilized and 90% of your hp is gone in a single shot. And during mid fights it they don’t even have to generate malice for the higher damage hits on you specifically do they? I know generally how it works but I could definitely study a bit more.

I played Firebrand in Plat 1 last season and worked with Scourges a lot before their nerf. I also played Deadeye rather casually this season.

Everything is context dependent, so you want to understand the Necro vs Deadeye matchup in the context of 5v5, as well as teleports, terrain, and LoS against ranged attacks.

What makes you play every class better is map awareness - constantly check the map for where everyone is on the map, and especially for classes with mobility and damage, like the Thief. You will understand things by its presence and absence on the minimap. Then of course you want to have the widest FoV and pan your camera constantly to avoid being sneaked up on. Listen to stealth sounds if available. Yes, they can stack stealth, but you should have been prepared if you don’t see them on minimap.

The best way to understand as someone has suggested is to try and play the Deadeye correctly, or at least have a friend break down its mechanics with you.

As Scourge in the current update, there’s very little reason to be one after all its nerfs, unless you’re somehow able to create more value out of it than Core Necro. Core Necro has much better survivability in its F1 due to being able to stack BM/Curses/SR, or you can go Spite/Curses/SR for more corrupts. You have an instant Fear on F1 which lets you reactively interrupt at reasonable ranges into counterpressure. As a Necro you should also be familiar with boon corrupts; Deadeye has access to Might and it corrupts into Weakness, which is the bane of most Power specs.

Customise to deal with your problems.You don’t have hard defensives, but you do have Spectral Walk and Summon Flesh Wurm; for more keep-away options you can use Spectral Wall or Corrosive Poison Cloud. Spec Walk and Wurm are life-savers. You want to place Wurm near a node you can fall back to, or also out of LoS on another elevation so people need to do work to get to you in Melee or have clear LoS for Ranged attacks. Be mindful of your effective range and just stay out of terrain where it’s easy to have clear LoS up to 1500 Rifle Kneel range. In general you want to understand enemy team composition and what classes are the biggest threat to you and under what conditions; then you do your best to prevent those situations.

Your survival, if I’ve not been very clear, is map- and node-dependent. You should actually work out how to use the geometry of every node for kiting, using your Wurm on, and denying projectiles. You also should work out with your support FB if you have one, about whether “to hug or not to hug”, but in general you want to be able to somewhat survive on your own by kiting. As long as people waste time trying to kill you, and you survive with good ports (wait for teleport skills and try to bait them with pure movement before porting yourself, so you don’t get immediately chased), you’re adding value to the team by having the option to go on offensive when the other team used up too many CDs.

Spectral Walk is usually used defensively to double down on juking, but you need to plan it - you want to initiate a fight with it running, and when people focus you in those 10 seconds you can get off more pressure before porting back. Or when you’re being chased, you activate Spectral Walk, jump down a ledge and wait for the person to jump down with you, and port up again so that you force the person to use teleport/mobility to catch up to you, where you can predict, setup CC into damage to peel for yourself.

Wurm has a short CD and can save you if you’re getting jumped by damage. It can let you avoid anything using LoS, but the counter to that is to-target ports like Core Guard’s Judge’s Intervention, or Herald’s Phase Traversal, or a Thief using Infiltrator’s Strike or Steal mechanics. Be aware of how far away you are from the Wurm if you want to end up exactly where you left it.

A common way to discourage melee teleport chasing is to place Staff Marks or Shades right on top of yourself. Spectral Wall also works and works additionally on people that are evading while travelling (e.g. dodge into Steal on Core or Daredevil Thief, Bull’s Charge).

If you’re sure you’re getting a lot of ranged classes on the other end, you can try to use Corrosive Poison Cloud. It’s a fun utility back when Druids were prominent in HoT and Reapers had problems with them. It completely negates the Deadeye’s ranged option while you choose your cover for LoS, and isn’t too shabby in melee with its Weakness pulse either. You don’t have to use it completely on reaction - if this is a key phase in the teamfight and you cannot afford being killed by a Deadeye, just get on a no-port spot and plant the Cloud right on top of you. You’ll be able to get your stuff off provided your positioning is good. The counter to that, is of course target-able AoE skills, such as a Herald's Facet of Elements/Elemental Blast, another Necro's skills (Axe is non-projectile, AoE on Staff and Sceptre etc.), Firebrand's F1 pull and Axe 2, Ranger/Dragonhunter Longbow 5 (it's not projectiles, it's just a damage area), or Fresh Weaver zapping with the double Air swap. You have to assess from the team composition what is your safest choice.

Constantly think about what you could have done better in every situation. Excuses about which class being a counter and how you're super cool with off-meta - these don't help you get past the hurdle of ordinary-ness and become an actual "good Necro" that people talk about and want in their games, because you go beyond the common expectation and get consistent results.

If you main Necro these are just some simple suggestions you might already know about. If you’re trying to climb, you’d do well remembering the traits of all the relevant builds, and how classes work in terms of key skills that let them be meta. Some of the builds are available on Metabattle or Godsofpvp, some are in streams, some are passed around in discord channels (there’s a PvP Discord mentioned in this subforum). If you put your mind to it you can get all the info you need.

As a Necro you do not want to come into Teamfights early, unless you have a Firebrand putting down enough boons so that you can push in with the team. Especially if you know there’s a Deadeye in the other team who has a very high chance of going for you in the initial fight when you have no Life Force, one Mark can take away Protection, Stability and Aegis which makes the situation extremely dangerous. Enter fights late so you can build shroud without being focused, but be very aware of where all of the enemy team is - you don’t want to isolate yourself for easy picking, though you can always use yourself as bait if you have your ports up to juke and waste time. Skirt around the fight, lay out some ranged pressure to build some initial Life Force and get a good position such as a No-Port Spot with some LoS, or behind simply behind a pillar, or a spot on a low wall you can immediately jump down from to use as cover.

You need to play very defensively and smart as a Necro to survive. You could also get into the habit of seeing how fast people switch targets and try to recognize when they invest and commit to targets - they won't have the resource to focus you then. Of course, this can also become something of a mind-game with quick target swapping to the Necro - everyone understands what that means.Usually someone would be tracking you and guess that you're safe to focus. People would take target, check your positioning and guess your CD usage through your health, hard buffs and boon/condition status. Then, everyone with enough damage left would commit to the Necro to make sure it's out of the fight, and maybe a Roamer would chase through your port to finish you off.As Core Necro, you actually have pretty good 1v1 ability given enough resources, terrain and player skill. It's something you have to practise, to make sure you can handle pressure from Roamers under match conditions (e.g. without everything off CD). Of course, you also need to reflect on being ganked while travelling to points - check where the Roamers are and think about whether to wait for other respawns.Don't think you need to "hurry back" to fights - evaluate whether there is purpose to what you do. Where you are most needed - the teamfight usually. What matchups you can take. What is your plan in the particular teamfight - what is your priority target, how you should position to be able to defend yourself, do you have the CDs to go aggressive etc.

Deadeye comes in many flavours, and to be honest it’s not only limited to the Rifle as a damage option. You can try to look up streamers like Faeleth (dduff), Elxdark, or Vallun; you can see for yourself the Marauder Rifle build on Metabattle. It can run S/P or D/P and use a variety of trait setups, like DA/Trick or SA/Trick or CS/Trick or even SA/CS. The highest possible damage and cheese could be done with something like SA/CS, Berserker + Eagle Runes and running Assassin’s Signet + Binding Shadow, where you stay in stealth before you combo everything into a knockdown/immobilise setup for Death’s Judgment. However more balanced sets tend to have options in melee as well.

A Firebrand with a brain who knows it has a Necro in the team with Rev and Thief on the other side should be saving its F3 tome/CDs for you with its boons and reflects and peeling for you, and CC if it closes in for quickness melee;Roamers with more mobility than the Deadeye should be chasing it down because DE has traded in mobility for a initiative-heavy style of damage output, and it becomes actual food when competent Roamers keep a Berserker DE on respawn;What you should be doing is LoS with the help of Walk and Wurm (have a finger on Wurm when you still don’t see the DE on minimap and expect a gank), using no-port as much as possible to avoid melee, mark the DE on appearance for your team, and if possible punish them with conditions for their poor positioning. Don’t push into a fight where you expect to be the focus if you don’t have the teleports or other CDs to save yourself, or at least until the support could pull your health up to safe levels.

I’m not great on Necro, but good ones try to stall and avoid the Rifle as much as possible, and use no-ports to avoid S/P melee port-ins.The Deadeye uses a lot of initiative so if it fails to kill with initiative skills, it would have to burn Mercy or pull away to prevent Roamers from engaging it.Once you land CCs or some defensive conditions like weakness and chill from skills or corrupts, the Thief has to blow defensives and reset, but remember you’re not in a good matchup and you should play very defensively, position yourself safely in LoS if you’re low from the burst and try to survive the teamfight and win it.The best case is if you survive the DE, your team peels it off you and it is forced to disengage, and then your Roamers like Thief/Mirage/Rev chase it the whole game so you don’t need to worry about it.

Worst case is getting downed, it becomes a cleave scenario, your team loses, fails to regroup after they bleed you out, then the DE hunts you down when you are trying to get to nodes solo.If you have support and it happens to have some brain cells, actually if your team has some semblance of intelligence, they would attempt to regroup and push a node together, outnumbering the other team and stopping the snowball attempt with a teamfight win. It has happened, in 200-400 comeback games and it’s usually a FB + Scourge combo, and hopefully this shows that momentum on the map matters (but it was before the nerfs).

[XECOR.2814]

Channel skills go through stealth to hit the target if they were casted when enemy was not stealthed.

[Burnfall.9573]

@"kanjiyakushi.4372" said:So like on a class with infinite stealth why is there a skill that can deal over 23k damage and can be almost spammed (the higher damage hits can’t be “spammed” but the skill can still be used often and hit high each time even if it’s not that specific damage output). Why’s that a thing and how can a class counter something they can’t see if they don’t have any reflects or stealth themselves. Especially when they sneak up on you with stealth and you don’t even know they’re there.2019

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/32811/death-judgement-25k-single-hit-damage/p22018

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/5756/deaths-judgment/p12017

[Nilkemia.8507]

Yet another reason why PvP is only good for reward tracks.

[Brandon Uzumaki.1524]

Rifle Warrior look at those numbers and just go "hmhp, pathetic" hehehe xD

[Tycura.1982]

With high damage numbers comes the tradeoff of low survivability. Someone should focus the DE. If you're running a class thst doesn't have reveals and is eaten by DE then c'est la vie. Can't win them all and pray for a teammate that can reveal and burst the DE.

[Avatar.3568]

@Tycura.1982 said:With high damage numbers comes the tradeoff of low survivability. Someone should focus the DE. If you're running a class thst doesn't have reveals and is eaten by DE then c'est la vie. Can't win them all and pray for a teammate that can reveal and burst the DE.

With learning mechanics you can beat DE's

You need to know, a build is not everything