What is a "non-cheese build"

[ArchonWing.9480]

@Cuks.8241 said:So based on the replies the only non-cheese build is a bad power build that doesn't counter anything and only does moderate dmg so it can't one shot anything. And it shouldn't be to sturdy also so it can't be considered a bunker build. Also no dmg immunity, blocks...You can use condi build but should not be able to spam them as this is cheese. You can only apply condis at a moderate rate. Same bunker no nos apply.

On top of that you have to only engage in fights with totally equal numbers and only against people with proper builds for that fight format. You should also not use environment in any way that the opponent could consider as cheese. Before engagement you should make sure that the opponent is ready for the fight and aware of your position and intentions as using the first striker advantage is an obvious cheese.

K, so basically celestial burn guard or core pvt minionmancer.

Nobody would ever run something so stupid, much less get flamed for being cheese. Well...

[KrHome.1920]

Low risk high reward is cheese. What else should it be?

That includes:

• fight deciding low telegraph openers
• attacks or sustain that allow to ignore the targets mechanic (e.g. non telegraphed unblockables, lots of fight reset capabilities, being able to burst while evading/blocking/being immune to damage or at least one damage type, being immune to cc)
• high damage at high range and lots of disengage potential at the same time

[Chaba.5410]

@"KrHome.1920" said:Low risk high reward is cheese. What else should it be?

So called "low risk high reward" is essentially the optimization of the chance of winning. I think it should be called that. Players who are doing things that increase their chance of winning are playing to win, although I would count leaving after realizing a win is not possible as a draw rather than a win.

[Mokk.2397]

@KrHome.1920 said:Low risk high reward is cheese. What else should it be?

That includes:

• fight deciding low telegraph openers
• attacks or sustain that allow to ignore the targets mechanic (e.g. non telegraphed unblockables, lots of fight reset capabilities, being able to burst while evading/blocking/being immune to damage or at least one damage type, being immune to cc)
• high damage at high range and lots of disengage potential at the same time

What your describing here is the current Meta.

A non cheese build is any build that doesn't require macros or hacks . If it uses any traits , skills ,weapons ,armour or legitimate enhancements of said weapons and armour. for a class/profession without the need for third party program influence then it's non cheese.A build is a build and their is no perfect build that can do everything. Once a weakness in a build is discovered then it can be countered with appropriate adjustments to your own build. Theirs no such thing as a cheese build if it falls within legitimate game parameters.

[Axl.8924]

Personally, every class has some cheese in it, just some more than others.

Necro? We used to have scourge which was so oppressive people complained about it, because in WVW and SPVP we could completely control a zone and prevent anyone coming and taking it over, and in SPVP we could spam enough boon corrupt with condis, that everyone would melt.

Reaper? they can hit super hard and go ham if they catch you and kill you fairly fast .

Warrior? In the past rampage cc blow you up in 1 hitSpellbreaker? similar but more sustain.

Ele?

Weaver burn and power aoes.In the past bunker build that was cheese galore.

Mesmer? tons of cheese too

Etc etc.

It's just that some builds were toned down more than others. For instance: You hear less about mesmers because they got toned down a lot, but thief rev guardians and soulbeast might be toned down more in the future. Rangers get a really bad rep because when they merge with their pets they can be pretty oppressive combined with their built-in sustain and damage.

All we can hope for is in the future these problems are corrected before SPVP ends in the dumpster and WVW and the game crashes and burns before other big MMO's that are older such as world of warcraft.

[subversiontwo.7501]

Whatever I'm playing is non-cheese.Whatever others are playing is cheese.Kekw.

[apharma.3741]

Simple: A cheese build is one that either utilises a singular aspect that has few counters to kill you OR is a build where you have very little ability to actually fight it based upon the trait, stat and skill combination.

Sometimes you can run into someone running a "cheese build" but they're not utilising it's singular aspect in an unfair way, this would be say a PU mesmer that uses stealth to re position and not to 1 shot you.

Not many other examples to be honest because everything is so fire and forget, auto proc or power crept that spamming is no different to conscious usage.

[Sovereign.1093]

scourge is not cheese. it is now the walking lootbag

[Doug.4930]

@"Sovereign.1093" said:scourge is not cheese. it is now the walking lootbag

Not necessarily. Depending on the match up.

Poll is still ambiguous though. Just as in the real world there's many different varieties of cheese. Ill name two classes and the type of cheese they are to show what I mean.

Holosmith. Typically running power with boon duration. This is the ultimate 1v1 / 1vX build. If all the cheese builds were chucked into a cage and made to fight to the death, this is the build that walks out. It shouldn't lose 1v1's. If you like charging into a group of 3 solo, this build gives you the best chance of clobbering all 3 to death using your face. It has no counter. You should always win clean fights unless heavily outnumbered with this build.

Poision DE. Typically running condi duration gear. We all know this build. Its ability to win 1v1s is limited compared to holo, however you really should never die running this build unless you choose to. Mobility/Tank/Stealth. This build brings all 3 of the "you can't kill me" trinity to the table. With other thief builds, revealing and bursting usually makes short work of them if you know what you're doing. Not in this case. This build is slippery, fast, has high stealth uptime and the armour of a tiger tank. It is the ultimate coward build. The only time you should ever die running this build is if you decide not to run away and face your defeat with dignity. Which lets face it, thief mains are not known for doing.

Picking an ULTIMATE cheese build is not so black and white and picking a class that is NON cheese is even less so. It really depends on what you wish to accomplish. There are many other varieties of cheese, but those two examples should give you an idea of what I'm trying to say.

[Kylden Ar.3724]

Considering I am still beating plenty of folks with a classic PU build (no elite traitline) except for going max aggression with Vipers/Marauders mix and great-sword instead of staff, I'd say most of these issues people complain about are not build related but instead learning to play.