Can we actually get some skills that reveals baseline?

[Sindrener.1592]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@bluri.2653 said:Buff thief give block invuln and stab

LOl I have seen players jumping from ..thief to warrior , guardian etc to prove a point ..they all got demolished within secs...life it's hard when you can't chain stealth to run away and reset CD..trust me, you kitten up..you die..no shortbow 5 and no 5-2 bye bye

Same applies to all of you thinking thief or mes is easy? show me some gameplay

[Leonidrex.5649]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:Ìnvis is in abundance currently. The new Shadow Arts D/P thief, Deadeye and PU mesmer. Holosmith and Smokescale rangers.

Invis is such a strong survivability tool, that also allows you to hide your rotations and frankly, resustain on demand. There are currently VERY few counters too it, and the one counter that does exist is a bugged Engineer trait.

Adding reveal on a lot of the base line weapon skills would be a very welcoming change.

Also, delete Gazelle from the game.

Funny you say that, because Invis is the worst survivability tool. In fact, its pretty useless as one. Its good for exactly 2 things. Sneaking up on people. And Running away. If you try to use stealth to survive, youre just gonna die to cleave, AoEs and attacks they started before you entered stealth, all of which will hit you.

You mean I can't stealth and then stand there while the warrior does hundred blades on my face? Well, I am just outraged!

no, but you can stealth and still take 15k dmg from rapid fire from ranger, or arcing slice that wasnt even aimed at you, or mb warrior gets lucky and he will move in your direction while swining mouse 1 for 3-4k dmg. all it takes is 1-2 hits to make you REALLY regret it.

[Math.5123]

@saerni.2584 said:No, an attack would break stealth but not apply the revealed debuff.

Yes, it should. It was added for a reason.> @bluri.2653 said:

Buff thief give block invuln and stab

I heard Plasma was pretty good. They already have evade frames up the arse. They don't need blocks or stab.> @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:How is D/P without stealth access? Are you sure you're playing the class?

?

If you get what you want and classes get baseline reveal on their attacks, You will frequently have situations where Dagger Pistol (and pistol pistol sets with an external stealth source) will be preemptively revealed. These classes have very little damage mitigating skills on their weapon layouts as it stands.D/P without stealth access intermittently is the situation you will create in game if classes get baseline reveal on their weapon sets, and them having no defensive option because your opponent tapped you and revealed you isn't going to work. What did you think I was talking about?

I'm not talking about giving auto attacks reveal. But every class having 2(ish) weapons each baseline that applies revealed for X amounts of seconds.

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:Or is "we should be able to strip defense, thief should not be able to defend" adequate for you? That seems kinda unfair as a viewpoint.Once again, not what I said. But yes, you should never couple high burst from invis with evade frames and almost unrivaled mobility. Nerfing stealth would open up other places to buff. Not necessarily more evade frames though, as that is kinda over the top already.

That was your implication considering the situation you are proposing. If you're expecting that "nerfing stealth would open up other places to buff", you should probably start coupling your nerf suggestions with buff suggestions, otherwise I am going to assume that you want a flat nerf.

I don't play Thief nearly enough to know what to buff.Right now, thief is in a very ... strong place. It has so many different builds that are able to be played at the highest level. Core S/D, Condi S/D (Flash played this in semi in latest mAT), SA DrD D/P, Acro S/P, DE with Rifle and DE with S/P.I'm not saying build variety is bad, but thief is in a very oppressive spot right now.

Once again, I never said it was an issue. I said stealth has VERY few counters and adding counter-play is always a good idea. Like having unblockables to counter blocks, mobility to counter low mobility classes and stability to counter ccs.

The framing in your original post leads people to that conclusion. Stealth counters have been slowly added to the game and buffed over time. Engie, Ranger, Revenant, Warrior, and Guardian can now easily reveal thieves, some of those in wide area or on cleave.

No one takes that Purge Gyro Scrapper to Pvp, because it's awful. The other being a trait that was mentioned in the OP.Guardian has no way to reveal, DH does on the other hand. DH is terrible.Warrior can reveal if they hit their F1.Ranger's don't really run Sic'Em anymore.Revs, I'll give you that one.

I would want something like the Rev reveal as a viable skill on every class. As an example, adding it onto Guard GS 5 as a pulsing reveal similar to DH F1 and maybe even Scepter 3 adding a 3 second reveal in addition to it's current immobilize.

Maybe if you stop being so god-damned biased in every single one of your posts you would be able to see that.

Just working with what you give us. If you'd specified in your original post a more comprehensive rework people wouldn't be responding like that. A lot of us don't want to cheese stealth, but given we're part of that low HP pool set of classes, and all our damage mitigation except for instant reflexes is active or relies on stealth (which, again, classes right now can decide to turn off with a button press) , and any evade builds we come up with that don't require excessive stealth amass complaints on the forums-

There is really no difference between cheesing stealth and "cheesing" evade frames tbh. They are both close enough to invuln frames anyway.

A thief wielding a Shortbow Should not be able to duel. Having extreme mobility and disengage potential while still being an extremely potent dueler (with both DE and S/P DrD) will lead to unfun gameplay. There is a reason last season in eu ended with like 4 thieves and 3 revs. Mobility and high damage is key.

y'know, work with us here.

@saerni.2584 said:No, an attack would break stealth but not apply the revealed debuff.

I'm telling you right now I'm going to use that for multibackstabs. Just being completely honest.Haste Deadeye 40k shadow meld multibackstabs.You wont stop me.Or maybe ill stab you then leave and watch you flail madly trying to reveal me then port back and stab you again.Where am I?Headmindyagame.

[Sindrener.1592]

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@saerni.2584 said:No, an attack would break stealth but not apply the revealed debuff.

Yes, it should. It was added for a reason.> @bluri.2653 said:

Buff thief give block invuln and stab

I heard Plasma was pretty good. They already have evade frames up the kitten. They don't need blocks or stab.> @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:How is D/P without stealth access? Are you sure you're playing the class?

?

If you get what you want and classes get baseline reveal on their attacks, You will frequently have situations where Dagger Pistol (and pistol pistol sets with an external stealth source) will be preemptively revealed. These classes have very little damage mitigating skills on their weapon layouts as it stands.D/P without stealth access intermittently is the situation you will create in game if classes get baseline reveal on their weapon sets, and them having no defensive option because your opponent tapped you and revealed you isn't going to work. What did you think I was talking about?

I'm not talking about giving auto attacks reveal. But every class having 2(ish) weapons each baseline that applies revealed for X amounts of seconds.

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:Or is "we should be able to strip defense, thief should not be able to defend" adequate for you? That seems kinda unfair as a viewpoint.Once again, not what I said. But yes, you should never couple high burst from invis with evade frames and almost unrivaled mobility. Nerfing stealth would open up other places to buff. Not necessarily more evade frames though, as that is kinda over the top already.

That was your implication considering the situation you are proposing. If you're expecting that "nerfing stealth would open up other places to buff", you should probably start coupling your nerf suggestions with buff suggestions, otherwise I am going to assume that you want a flat nerf.

I don't play Thief nearly enough to know what to buff.Right now, thief is in a very ... strong place. It has so many different builds that are able to be played at the highest level. Core S/D, Condi S/D (Flash played this in semi in latest mAT), SA DrD D/P, Acro S/P, DE with Rifle and DE with S/P.I'm not saying build variety is bad, but thief is in a very oppressive spot right now.

Once again, I never said it was an issue. I said stealth has VERY few counters and adding counter-play is always a good idea. Like having unblockables to counter blocks, mobility to counter low mobility classes and stability to counter ccs.

The framing in your original post leads people to that conclusion. Stealth counters have been slowly added to the game and buffed over time. Engie, Ranger, Revenant, Warrior, and Guardian can now easily reveal thieves, some of those in wide area or on cleave.

No one takes that Purge Gyro Scrapper to Pvp, because it's awful. The other being a trait that was mentioned in the OP.Guardian has no way to reveal, DH does on the other hand. DH is terrible.Warrior can reveal if they hit their F1.Ranger's don't really run Sic'Em anymore.Revs, I'll give you that one.

I would want something like the Rev reveal as a viable skill on every class. As an example, adding it onto Guard GS 5 as a pulsing reveal similar to DH F1 and maybe even Scepter 3 adding a 3 second reveal in addition to it's current immobilize.

Maybe if you stop being so god-damned biased in every single one of your posts you would be able to see that.

Just working with what you give us. If you'd specified in your original post a more comprehensive rework people wouldn't be responding like that. A lot of us don't want to cheese stealth, but given we're part of that low HP pool set of classes, and all our damage mitigation except for instant reflexes is active or relies on stealth (which, again, classes right now can decide to turn off with a button press) , and any evade builds we come up with that don't require excessive stealth amass complaints on the forums-

There is really no difference between cheesing stealth and "cheesing" evade frames tbh. They are both close enough to invuln frames anyway.

A thief wielding a Shortbow

Should not be able to duel

. Having extreme mobility and disengage potential while still being an extremely potent dueler (with both DE and S/P DrD) will lead to unfun gameplay. There is a reason last season in eu ended with like 4 thieves and 3 revs. Mobility and high damage is key.

y'know, work with us here.

@saerni.2584 said:No, an attack would break stealth but not apply the revealed debuff.

I'm telling you right now I'm going to use that for multibackstabs. Just being completely honest.Haste Deadeye 40k shadow meld multibackstabs.You wont stop me.Or maybe ill stab you then leave and watch you flail madly trying to reveal me then port back and stab you again.Where am I?Headmindyagame.

Yes you are right thief is in a good spot with many viable builds, but remember to pull any of these builds off with exception condi sd it requires a lot to do good compared to any class.

[Axl.8924]

I'm going to vote no its a terrible hypothetical and as kitten necro is to thief, and how with invis thief you can blow up mesmers with 1 shot builds, it would power creep the game more, and also create a situation of worsening the quality experience. On top of that, i think thief would end up being to kitten.

Its better just to nerf said ability if its problematic with cd increases for instance.

I love my teef don't want it to become kitten.

[TorQ.7041]

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@saerni.2584 said:No, an attack would break stealth but not apply the revealed debuff.

Yes, it should. It was added for a reason.> @bluri.2653 said:

Buff thief give block invuln and stab

I heard Plasma was pretty good. They already have evade frames up the kitten. They don't need blocks or stab.> @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:How is D/P without stealth access? Are you sure you're playing the class?

?

If you get what you want and classes get baseline reveal on their attacks, You will frequently have situations where Dagger Pistol (and pistol pistol sets with an external stealth source) will be preemptively revealed. These classes have very little damage mitigating skills on their weapon layouts as it stands.D/P without stealth access intermittently is the situation you will create in game if classes get baseline reveal on their weapon sets, and them having no defensive option because your opponent tapped you and revealed you isn't going to work. What did you think I was talking about?

I'm not talking about giving auto attacks reveal. But every class having 2(ish) weapons each baseline that applies revealed for X amounts of seconds.

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:Or is "we should be able to strip defense, thief should not be able to defend" adequate for you? That seems kinda unfair as a viewpoint.Once again, not what I said. But yes, you should never couple high burst from invis with evade frames and almost unrivaled mobility. Nerfing stealth would open up other places to buff. Not necessarily more evade frames though, as that is kinda over the top already.

That was your implication considering the situation you are proposing. If you're expecting that "nerfing stealth would open up other places to buff", you should probably start coupling your nerf suggestions with buff suggestions, otherwise I am going to assume that you want a flat nerf.

I don't play Thief nearly enough to know what to buff.Right now, thief is in a very ... strong place. It has so many different builds that are able to be played at the highest level. Core S/D, Condi S/D (Flash played this in semi in latest mAT), SA DrD D/P, Acro S/P, DE with Rifle and DE with S/P.I'm not saying build variety is bad, but thief is in a very oppressive spot right now.

Once again, I never said it was an issue. I said stealth has VERY few counters and adding counter-play is always a good idea. Like having unblockables to counter blocks, mobility to counter low mobility classes and stability to counter ccs.

The framing in your original post leads people to that conclusion. Stealth counters have been slowly added to the game and buffed over time. Engie, Ranger, Revenant, Warrior, and Guardian can now easily reveal thieves, some of those in wide area or on cleave.

No one takes that Purge Gyro Scrapper to Pvp, because it's awful. The other being a trait that was mentioned in the OP.Guardian has no way to reveal, DH does on the other hand. DH is terrible.Warrior can reveal if they hit their F1.Ranger's don't really run Sic'Em anymore.Revs, I'll give you that one.

I would want something like the Rev reveal as a viable skill on every class. As an example, adding it onto Guard GS 5 as a pulsing reveal similar to DH F1 and maybe even Scepter 3 adding a 3 second reveal in addition to it's current immobilize.

Maybe if you stop being so god-damned biased in every single one of your posts you would be able to see that.

Just working with what you give us. If you'd specified in your original post a more comprehensive rework people wouldn't be responding like that. A lot of us don't want to cheese stealth, but given we're part of that low HP pool set of classes, and all our damage mitigation except for instant reflexes is active or relies on stealth (which, again, classes right now can decide to turn off with a button press) , and any evade builds we come up with that don't require excessive stealth amass complaints on the forums-

There is really no difference between cheesing stealth and "cheesing" evade frames tbh. They are both close enough to invuln frames anyway.

A thief wielding a Shortbow

Should not be able to duel

. Having extreme mobility and disengage potential while still being an extremely potent dueler (with both DE and S/P DrD) will lead to unfun gameplay. There is a reason last season in eu ended with like 4 thieves and 3 revs. Mobility and high damage is key.

y'know, work with us here.

@saerni.2584 said:No, an attack would break stealth but not apply the revealed debuff.

I'm telling you right now I'm going to use that for multibackstabs. Just being completely honest.Haste Deadeye 40k shadow meld multibackstabs.You wont stop me.Or maybe ill stab you then leave and watch you flail madly trying to reveal me then port back and stab you again.Where am I?Headmindyagame.

So let me get this straight. You don't play thief. Don't know how to counter. No idea how hard it is or not but you want reveal because you are having problems.

Sounds valid..

[Math.5123]

@TorQ.7041 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@saerni.2584 said:No, an attack would break stealth but not apply the revealed debuff.

Yes, it should. It was added for a reason.> @bluri.2653 said:

Buff thief give block invuln and stab

I heard Plasma was pretty good. They already have evade frames up the kitten. They don't need blocks or stab.> @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:How is D/P without stealth access? Are you sure you're playing the class?

?

If you get what you want and classes get baseline reveal on their attacks, You will frequently have situations where Dagger Pistol (and pistol pistol sets with an external stealth source) will be preemptively revealed. These classes have very little damage mitigating skills on their weapon layouts as it stands.D/P without stealth access intermittently is the situation you will create in game if classes get baseline reveal on their weapon sets, and them having no defensive option because your opponent tapped you and revealed you isn't going to work. What did you think I was talking about?

I'm not talking about giving auto attacks reveal. But every class having 2(ish) weapons each baseline that applies revealed for X amounts of seconds.

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:Or is "we should be able to strip defense, thief should not be able to defend" adequate for you? That seems kinda unfair as a viewpoint.Once again, not what I said. But yes, you should never couple high burst from invis with evade frames and almost unrivaled mobility. Nerfing stealth would open up other places to buff. Not necessarily more evade frames though, as that is kinda over the top already.

That was your implication considering the situation you are proposing. If you're expecting that "nerfing stealth would open up other places to buff", you should probably start coupling your nerf suggestions with buff suggestions, otherwise I am going to assume that you want a flat nerf.

I don't play Thief nearly enough to know what to buff.Right now, thief is in a very ... strong place. It has so many different builds that are able to be played at the highest level. Core S/D, Condi S/D (Flash played this in semi in latest mAT), SA DrD D/P, Acro S/P, DE with Rifle and DE with S/P.I'm not saying build variety is bad, but thief is in a very oppressive spot right now.

Once again, I never said it was an issue. I said stealth has VERY few counters and adding counter-play is always a good idea. Like having unblockables to counter blocks, mobility to counter low mobility classes and stability to counter ccs.

The framing in your original post leads people to that conclusion. Stealth counters have been slowly added to the game and buffed over time. Engie, Ranger, Revenant, Warrior, and Guardian can now easily reveal thieves, some of those in wide area or on cleave.

No one takes that Purge Gyro Scrapper to Pvp, because it's awful. The other being a trait that was mentioned in the OP.Guardian has no way to reveal, DH does on the other hand. DH is terrible.Warrior can reveal if they hit their F1.Ranger's don't really run Sic'Em anymore.Revs, I'll give you that one.

I would want something like the Rev reveal as a viable skill on every class. As an example, adding it onto Guard GS 5 as a pulsing reveal similar to DH F1 and maybe even Scepter 3 adding a 3 second reveal in addition to it's current immobilize.

Maybe if you stop being so god-damned biased in every single one of your posts you would be able to see that.

Just working with what you give us. If you'd specified in your original post a more comprehensive rework people wouldn't be responding like that. A lot of us don't want to cheese stealth, but given we're part of that low HP pool set of classes, and all our damage mitigation except for instant reflexes is active or relies on stealth (which, again, classes right now can decide to turn off with a button press) , and any evade builds we come up with that don't require excessive stealth amass complaints on the forums-

There is really no difference between cheesing stealth and "cheesing" evade frames tbh. They are both close enough to invuln frames anyway.

A thief wielding a Shortbow

Should not be able to duel

. Having extreme mobility and disengage potential while still being an extremely potent dueler (with both DE and S/P DrD) will lead to unfun gameplay. There is a reason last season in eu ended with like 4 thieves and 3 revs. Mobility and high damage is key.

y'know, work with us here.

@saerni.2584 said:No, an attack would break stealth but not apply the revealed debuff.

I'm telling you right now I'm going to use that for multibackstabs. Just being completely honest.Haste Deadeye 40k shadow meld multibackstabs.You wont stop me.Or maybe ill stab you then leave and watch you flail madly trying to reveal me then port back and stab you again.Where am I?Headmindyagame.

So let me get this straight. You don't play thief. Don't know how to counter. No idea how hard it is or not but you want reveal because you are having problems.

Sounds valid..

I've been Legendary or close to legendary the past ... what? 11 seasons? Playing Core Guard nonetheless.I know how to fight thieves, that doesn't mean I think it's fun to fight perma (or close to perma) stealth builds. It's not engaging. It's not fun, it's basically whack-a-mole hoping the thief screws up (sometimes twice due to acro).

So no, considering I have around 4000 out of my 7000 games played on Guardian. I don't know the correct places to buff thieves without making stuff like one shot deadeye become meta.Reverting Lead Attacks will just make Deadeye more obnoxious than it is.Buffing Dagger auto damage might be a good place to start, moving some of the frontloaded damage from Assassins Signet to the actual skills. Moving some of the burst to sustained damage instead. Moving away from a one shot meta where mobility roamers are king.

I think the vast majority of people on this forum and in-game enjoys a bruiser meta above all else. Where side-noders can kill each other if they outplay them but roamers can speed that up.We currently have a meta where side-noders will just never die in a 1v1, and if they do they are not viable because a + from thief or rev will just instantly kill them.

We can turn your argument the other way around, what would core guardian need to become a viable meta spec. Without just pushing more frontloaded burst onto the class turning it into a one-shot-machine?

[Math.5123]

@bluri.2653 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@saerni.2584 said:No, an attack would break stealth but not apply the revealed debuff.

Yes, it should. It was added for a reason.> @bluri.2653 said:

Buff thief give block invuln and stab

I heard Plasma was pretty good. They already have evade frames up the kitten. They don't need blocks or stab.> @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:How is D/P without stealth access? Are you sure you're playing the class?

?

If you get what you want and classes get baseline reveal on their attacks, You will frequently have situations where Dagger Pistol (and pistol pistol sets with an external stealth source) will be preemptively revealed. These classes have very little damage mitigating skills on their weapon layouts as it stands.D/P without stealth access intermittently is the situation you will create in game if classes get baseline reveal on their weapon sets, and them having no defensive option because your opponent tapped you and revealed you isn't going to work. What did you think I was talking about?

I'm not talking about giving auto attacks reveal. But every class having 2(ish) weapons each baseline that applies revealed for X amounts of seconds.

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:Or is "we should be able to strip defense, thief should not be able to defend" adequate for you? That seems kinda unfair as a viewpoint.Once again, not what I said. But yes, you should never couple high burst from invis with evade frames and almost unrivaled mobility. Nerfing stealth would open up other places to buff. Not necessarily more evade frames though, as that is kinda over the top already.

That was your implication considering the situation you are proposing. If you're expecting that "nerfing stealth would open up other places to buff", you should probably start coupling your nerf suggestions with buff suggestions, otherwise I am going to assume that you want a flat nerf.

I don't play Thief nearly enough to know what to buff.Right now, thief is in a very ... strong place. It has so many different builds that are able to be played at the highest level. Core S/D, Condi S/D (Flash played this in semi in latest mAT), SA DrD D/P, Acro S/P, DE with Rifle and DE with S/P.I'm not saying build variety is bad, but thief is in a very oppressive spot right now.

Once again, I never said it was an issue. I said stealth has VERY few counters and adding counter-play is always a good idea. Like having unblockables to counter blocks, mobility to counter low mobility classes and stability to counter ccs.

The framing in your original post leads people to that conclusion. Stealth counters have been slowly added to the game and buffed over time. Engie, Ranger, Revenant, Warrior, and Guardian can now easily reveal thieves, some of those in wide area or on cleave.

No one takes that Purge Gyro Scrapper to Pvp, because it's awful. The other being a trait that was mentioned in the OP.Guardian has no way to reveal, DH does on the other hand. DH is terrible.Warrior can reveal if they hit their F1.Ranger's don't really run Sic'Em anymore.Revs, I'll give you that one.

I would want something like the Rev reveal as a viable skill on every class. As an example, adding it onto Guard GS 5 as a pulsing reveal similar to DH F1 and maybe even Scepter 3 adding a 3 second reveal in addition to it's current immobilize.

Maybe if you stop being so god-damned biased in every single one of your posts you would be able to see that.

Just working with what you give us. If you'd specified in your original post a more comprehensive rework people wouldn't be responding like that. A lot of us don't want to cheese stealth, but given we're part of that low HP pool set of classes, and all our damage mitigation except for instant reflexes is active or relies on stealth (which, again, classes right now can decide to turn off with a button press) , and any evade builds we come up with that don't require excessive stealth amass complaints on the forums-

There is really no difference between cheesing stealth and "cheesing" evade frames tbh. They are both close enough to invuln frames anyway.

A thief wielding a Shortbow

Should not be able to duel

. Having extreme mobility and disengage potential while still being an extremely potent dueler (with both DE and S/P DrD) will lead to unfun gameplay. There is a reason last season in eu ended with like 4 thieves and 3 revs. Mobility and high damage is key.

y'know, work with us here.

@saerni.2584 said:No, an attack would break stealth but not apply the revealed debuff.

I'm telling you right now I'm going to use that for multibackstabs. Just being completely honest.Haste Deadeye 40k shadow meld multibackstabs.You wont stop me.Or maybe ill stab you then leave and watch you flail madly trying to reveal me then port back and stab you again.Where am I?Headmindyagame.

Yes you are right thief is in a good spot with many viable builds, but remember to pull any of these builds off with exception condi sd it requires a lot to do good compared to any class.

That is besides the point though, and it's why people got so upset with cmc's post about Revenants. Having a high skill-floor is fine, and even encouraged. Same with a skill-roof. But having high skill-floor classes (Like Thief, Rev and what portal Mesmer used to be) is not an excuse for them to be stronger when mastered than other classes.

Cmc used "Rev is basically overperforming because the very best people flock to the class" as an excuse why it was not nerfed the last "major" balance patch. Thief is currently in a similar spot, where if you take an equally skilled thief to an equally skilled ... say Holo. The thief will almost always outvalue the other spec. Same with Rev.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@TorQ.7041 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@saerni.2584 said:No, an attack would break stealth but not apply the revealed debuff.

Yes, it should. It was added for a reason.> @bluri.2653 said:

Buff thief give block invuln and stab

I heard Plasma was pretty good. They already have evade frames up the kitten. They don't need blocks or stab.> @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:How is D/P without stealth access? Are you sure you're playing the class?

?

If you get what you want and classes get baseline reveal on their attacks, You will frequently have situations where Dagger Pistol (and pistol pistol sets with an external stealth source) will be preemptively revealed. These classes have very little damage mitigating skills on their weapon layouts as it stands.D/P without stealth access intermittently is the situation you will create in game if classes get baseline reveal on their weapon sets, and them having no defensive option because your opponent tapped you and revealed you isn't going to work. What did you think I was talking about?

I'm not talking about giving auto attacks reveal. But every class having 2(ish) weapons each baseline that applies revealed for X amounts of seconds.

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:Or is "we should be able to strip defense, thief should not be able to defend" adequate for you? That seems kinda unfair as a viewpoint.Once again, not what I said. But yes, you should never couple high burst from invis with evade frames and almost unrivaled mobility. Nerfing stealth would open up other places to buff. Not necessarily more evade frames though, as that is kinda over the top already.

That was your implication considering the situation you are proposing. If you're expecting that "nerfing stealth would open up other places to buff", you should probably start coupling your nerf suggestions with buff suggestions, otherwise I am going to assume that you want a flat nerf.

I don't play Thief nearly enough to know what to buff.Right now, thief is in a very ... strong place. It has so many different builds that are able to be played at the highest level. Core S/D, Condi S/D (Flash played this in semi in latest mAT), SA DrD D/P, Acro S/P, DE with Rifle and DE with S/P.I'm not saying build variety is bad, but thief is in a very oppressive spot right now.

Once again, I never said it was an issue. I said stealth has VERY few counters and adding counter-play is always a good idea. Like having unblockables to counter blocks, mobility to counter low mobility classes and stability to counter ccs.

The framing in your original post leads people to that conclusion. Stealth counters have been slowly added to the game and buffed over time. Engie, Ranger, Revenant, Warrior, and Guardian can now easily reveal thieves, some of those in wide area or on cleave.

No one takes that Purge Gyro Scrapper to Pvp, because it's awful. The other being a trait that was mentioned in the OP.Guardian has no way to reveal, DH does on the other hand. DH is terrible.Warrior can reveal if they hit their F1.Ranger's don't really run Sic'Em anymore.Revs, I'll give you that one.

I would want something like the Rev reveal as a viable skill on every class. As an example, adding it onto Guard GS 5 as a pulsing reveal similar to DH F1 and maybe even Scepter 3 adding a 3 second reveal in addition to it's current immobilize.

Maybe if you stop being so god-damned biased in every single one of your posts you would be able to see that.

Just working with what you give us. If you'd specified in your original post a more comprehensive rework people wouldn't be responding like that. A lot of us don't want to cheese stealth, but given we're part of that low HP pool set of classes, and all our damage mitigation except for instant reflexes is active or relies on stealth (which, again, classes right now can decide to turn off with a button press) , and any evade builds we come up with that don't require excessive stealth amass complaints on the forums-

There is really no difference between cheesing stealth and "cheesing" evade frames tbh. They are both close enough to invuln frames anyway.

A thief wielding a Shortbow

Should not be able to duel

. Having extreme mobility and disengage potential while still being an extremely potent dueler (with both DE and S/P DrD) will lead to unfun gameplay. There is a reason last season in eu ended with like 4 thieves and 3 revs. Mobility and high damage is key.

y'know, work with us here.

@saerni.2584 said:No, an attack would break stealth but not apply the revealed debuff.

I'm telling you right now I'm going to use that for multibackstabs. Just being completely honest.Haste Deadeye 40k shadow meld multibackstabs.You wont stop me.Or maybe ill stab you then leave and watch you flail madly trying to reveal me then port back and stab you again.Where am I?Headmindyagame.

So let me get this straight. You don't play thief. Don't know how to counter. No idea how hard it is or not but you want reveal because you are having problems.

Sounds valid..

I've been Legendary or close to legendary the past ... what? 11 seasons? Playing Core Guard nonetheless.I know how to fight thieves, that doesn't mean I think it's fun to fight perma (or close to perma) stealth builds. It's not engaging. It's not fun, it's basically whack-a-mole hoping the thief screws up (sometimes twice due to acro).

So no, considering I have around 4000 out of my 7000 games played on Guardian. I don't know the correct places to buff thieves without making stuff like one shot deadeye become meta.Reverting Lead Attacks will just make Deadeye more obnoxious than it is.Buffing Dagger auto damage might be a good place to start, moving some of the frontloaded damage from Assassins Signet to the actual skills. Moving some of the burst to sustained damage instead. Moving away from a one shot meta where mobility roamers are king.

I think the vast majority of people on this forum and in-game enjoys a bruiser meta above all else. Where side-noders can kill each other if they outplay them but roamers can speed that up.We currently have a meta where side-noders will just never die in a 1v1, and if they do they are not viable because a + from thief or rev will just instantly kill them.

We can turn your argument the other way around, what would core guardian need to become a viable meta spec. Without just pushing more frontloaded burst onto the class turning it into a one-shot-machine?

And I bet those thiefs that you find unfun to fight.Dont find it fun when you 100%->10% them as a tank guard.Just a matter of perspective.

[Math.5123]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@TorQ.7041 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@saerni.2584 said:No, an attack would break stealth but not apply the revealed debuff.

Yes, it should. It was added for a reason.> @bluri.2653 said:

Buff thief give block invuln and stab

I heard Plasma was pretty good. They already have evade frames up the kitten. They don't need blocks or stab.> @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:How is D/P without stealth access? Are you sure you're playing the class?

?

If you get what you want and classes get baseline reveal on their attacks, You will frequently have situations where Dagger Pistol (and pistol pistol sets with an external stealth source) will be preemptively revealed. These classes have very little damage mitigating skills on their weapon layouts as it stands.D/P without stealth access intermittently is the situation you will create in game if classes get baseline reveal on their weapon sets, and them having no defensive option because your opponent tapped you and revealed you isn't going to work. What did you think I was talking about?

I'm not talking about giving auto attacks reveal. But every class having 2(ish) weapons each baseline that applies revealed for X amounts of seconds.

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:Or is "we should be able to strip defense, thief should not be able to defend" adequate for you? That seems kinda unfair as a viewpoint.Once again, not what I said. But yes, you should never couple high burst from invis with evade frames and almost unrivaled mobility. Nerfing stealth would open up other places to buff. Not necessarily more evade frames though, as that is kinda over the top already.

That was your implication considering the situation you are proposing. If you're expecting that "nerfing stealth would open up other places to buff", you should probably start coupling your nerf suggestions with buff suggestions, otherwise I am going to assume that you want a flat nerf.

I don't play Thief nearly enough to know what to buff.Right now, thief is in a very ... strong place. It has so many different builds that are able to be played at the highest level. Core S/D, Condi S/D (Flash played this in semi in latest mAT), SA DrD D/P, Acro S/P, DE with Rifle and DE with S/P.I'm not saying build variety is bad, but thief is in a very oppressive spot right now.

Once again, I never said it was an issue. I said stealth has VERY few counters and adding counter-play is always a good idea. Like having unblockables to counter blocks, mobility to counter low mobility classes and stability to counter ccs.

The framing in your original post leads people to that conclusion. Stealth counters have been slowly added to the game and buffed over time. Engie, Ranger, Revenant, Warrior, and Guardian can now easily reveal thieves, some of those in wide area or on cleave.

No one takes that Purge Gyro Scrapper to Pvp, because it's awful. The other being a trait that was mentioned in the OP.Guardian has no way to reveal, DH does on the other hand. DH is terrible.Warrior can reveal if they hit their F1.Ranger's don't really run Sic'Em anymore.Revs, I'll give you that one.

I would want something like the Rev reveal as a viable skill on every class. As an example, adding it onto Guard GS 5 as a pulsing reveal similar to DH F1 and maybe even Scepter 3 adding a 3 second reveal in addition to it's current immobilize.

Maybe if you stop being so god-damned biased in every single one of your posts you would be able to see that.

Just working with what you give us. If you'd specified in your original post a more comprehensive rework people wouldn't be responding like that. A lot of us don't want to cheese stealth, but given we're part of that low HP pool set of classes, and all our damage mitigation except for instant reflexes is active or relies on stealth (which, again, classes right now can decide to turn off with a button press) , and any evade builds we come up with that don't require excessive stealth amass complaints on the forums-

There is really no difference between cheesing stealth and "cheesing" evade frames tbh. They are both close enough to invuln frames anyway.

A thief wielding a Shortbow

Should not be able to duel

. Having extreme mobility and disengage potential while still being an extremely potent dueler (with both DE and S/P DrD) will lead to unfun gameplay. There is a reason last season in eu ended with like 4 thieves and 3 revs. Mobility and high damage is key.

y'know, work with us here.

@saerni.2584 said:No, an attack would break stealth but not apply the revealed debuff.

I'm telling you right now I'm going to use that for multibackstabs. Just being completely honest.Haste Deadeye 40k shadow meld multibackstabs.You wont stop me.Or maybe ill stab you then leave and watch you flail madly trying to reveal me then port back and stab you again.Where am I?Headmindyagame.

So let me get this straight. You don't play thief. Don't know how to counter. No idea how hard it is or not but you want reveal because you are having problems.

Sounds valid..

I've been Legendary or close to legendary the past ... what? 11 seasons? Playing Core Guard nonetheless.I know how to fight thieves, that doesn't mean I think it's fun to fight perma (or close to perma) stealth builds. It's not engaging. It's not fun, it's basically whack-a-mole hoping the thief screws up (sometimes twice due to acro).

So no, considering I have around 4000 out of my 7000 games played on Guardian. I don't know the correct places to buff thieves without making stuff like one shot deadeye become meta.Reverting Lead Attacks will just make Deadeye more obnoxious than it is.Buffing Dagger auto damage might be a good place to start, moving some of the frontloaded damage from Assassins Signet to the actual skills. Moving some of the burst to sustained damage instead. Moving away from a one shot meta where mobility roamers are king.

I think the vast majority of people on this forum and in-game enjoys a bruiser meta above all else. Where side-noders can kill each other if they outplay them but roamers can speed that up.We currently have a meta where side-noders will just never die in a 1v1, and if they do they are not viable because a + from thief or rev will just instantly kill them.

We can turn your argument the other way around, what would core guardian need to become a viable meta spec. Without just pushing more frontloaded burst onto the class turning it into a one-shot-machine?

And I bet those thiefs that you find unfun to fight.Dont find it fun when you 100%->10% them as a tank guard.Just a matter of perspective.

100-10 them as a "tank guard"? What even is a "Tank Guard"? Mender Firebrand? If yes, I'm all for nerfing Firebrand. Namely F3 utility and weakness mantra. Even big symbols should go as it promotes lazy gameplay.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@saerni.2584 said:You can already haste and Shadowmeld for multiple backstabs.

Yeah, but now I can basilisk stab/stealth on steal/stab and it's basically a shatter mes gank, especially if I take hidden killer.Plus if I see you anywhere 1200 range I'm porting right to you with shadowstep for it.

I don't think that's going to work out well in the game. People already have a problem with pistol whip. Let's not do that.

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:A thief wielding a Shortbow Should not be able to duel.

I'm not taking this argument seriously anymore if that's your mentality for this. We were here before in like 2015 with people claiming that "thieves shouldn't be able to 1v1 because shortbow" and I've already been through that debate, probably all its derivatives, and experienced firsthand what having a character that can do nothing but run because of the potential of one of their weapon sets feels like. If you want to be able to chase them off or kill if they miss a skill/their cds are up, fine, that's what I want too. But let's not go the "My class can't duel thieves, thieves shouldn't be able to duel -anyone- because they can run" route. Anet tried it once and Thieves deleted their characters. There are people playing that class that want to have fun too.

Also because

mobility to counter low mobility classes

of that^

Guardian has no way to reveal, DH does on the other hand. DH is terrible.

Then buff DH? They built a whole spec around punishing thief/mes for guard, and you want to gut thieves more because DH on its own doesn't meet your expectations?You'll also need to nerf FB btw. Glad we're on the same page on that.

Ranger's don't really run Sic'Em anymore.

They sure do.

There is really no difference between cheesing stealth and "cheesing" evade frames tbh. They are both close enough to invuln frames anyway.

Not true. Evades have telegraphs and punishable windows that are clearly defined(on thief). As long as they cannot be chained together infinitely as was the case in Staff/Staff, then I think those are fair game. Keep in mind thief has the same health pool that you do and doesn't get access to aegis, invulns, or blocks on demand. evading/stealth is their damage mitigation and they don't have large windows for one of those.

But pick one, or the other. If you don't like dealing with evades, stealth needs to be less punished. If you don't like dealing with stealth, evades need to be less punished.

Right now, thief is in a very ... strong place.

nnno. As it stands most specs in the game have a build or playstyle that can at the very least infinitely stall thieves, including guardian. The only one that does not at this time is necro.

I'm fine with being stalled or chased off gameplay wise. Necro should be able to do that too. I wouldn't call "they have builds that don't cause them to violently crash and burn if played right" them being in a strong place or even oppressive, though.

Once again, I never said it was an issue.

Okay.

I'm not talking about giving auto attacks reveal. But every class having 2(ish) weapons each baseline that applies revealed for X amounts of seconds.

Not every class has two ish weapons each that have unblockable skills. I'm fine with more reveal being added to some key utilities for classes that lack it and suffer vs thieves (Necromancer), but I'm not willing to go that far.

I don't play Thief nearly enough to know what to buff.

Go play it. It's frustrating to see threads like this from a player that claims to be legendary rank. I invite you to go suffer try the class you're asking to nerf before suggesting blanket nerfs like this or thinking that thieves shouldn't have the right to duel a class 1v1 because of shortbow. Stand in a symbol for a DPS guard and see how much time you get before dodging is mandatory to not die.

[saerni.2584]

@Azure The Heartless.3261

Fair enough. I meant it only as a suggestion where suddenly reveal skills were handled out en mass.

I don’t think either should happen. I made the post because I think people should be careful what they wish for.

You add something to get rid of stealth on demand then you need to buff thief, a lot. Otherwise, this thread might as well be yet another Burnfall “delete thief 2020” discussion.