It's time protection affected conditions

[Zexanima.7851]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Zexanima.7851 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Zexanima.7851 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Psykewne.3025 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Psykewne.3025 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Psykewne.3025 said:

@"Swagg.9236" said:How about instead of using an arenanet-approved, "Slap a bandaid on the severed artery" thought process, why not just give conditions an actual purpose in the game? You can't have two untyped damage sources running around, constantly competing with each other; that's just going to invalidate one or the other based on the whim of any given patch note release. It's the reason why, prior to the condition stack change, conditions were WORTHLESS in every mode (particularly in PvE but even in PvP, the only one that was remotely viable was a Necromancer build, and even that was trash); and it's also the reason why after the condition patch, we saw some condition builds randomly and utterly supplant power stats on certain classes. There is no justification for either type reigning over the other: one has to go.

So, instead of complaining about the fact that the one thing that can maybe kill a super passive, one-shot Mesmer boi is if said boi gets clipped by a billion condis at once by another player pressing around 3 buttons, why not just suggest that conditions get what they deserve: their damage gutted, their proliferated presence vastly culled, and their purpose retooled into one intended for set-up triggers (i.e. "

[THIS SKILL] deals [bONUS1]/gets you [bONUS2] if you strike a foe that is suffering from [CONDITION]

")?

Finally someone gets it!!!! Conditions should not be a core method of dealing damage but should function as utility or supplementary damage. This is something guild wars 1 got very right.You could run degen builds but they were not just spam endless conditions and win. There was much more nuance to it.

Why ? different game.

Because right now what a condition is so muddied. You have damage, control, heal reduction, situational damage and blind effects that all have to be balanced against condition removal.

The result of this arms race has been classes that can actually use conditions for damage must produce massive stacks of multiple conditions in seconds to generate burst before their conditions are removed. This effectively means they end up with similar time to kill as power specs but if they go uncleansed they do even more damage.

they dont have similar TTK. not even close.this "condi bursting" is landing usually 4+ abilities and dying in 2s.power burst kills you in 0,2s.

For example condi burst on Cmirage is p4->p5->scepter 3 while evading ( clone does ambush ) -> jaunt->f1+f2thats 7 abilities to " burst you " in about 4s.power build like ranger will kill you with knockback + rapidfire in 1,5-2s with 2 abilities.

Yes but I’m talking about conditions in general for balancing and not any particular current build. Most condi based builds have been nerfed down again right now and power builds with lots daze and stuns are running rampant again.

But every time a condi build rises to prominence it starts to reach very low ttk.

Also the difference between. 2 and 4 seconds is basically nothing in terms of being able to kill when most condi builds that have been dominant end up with ridiculous evade or control effects on top that they can use WHILE Doing full damage or even as core parts of their burst.

I will give you relistic example.Ranger knocks you down and rapidfires you, by the time you stunremove and evade you lose 1/3 hp.Ranger traded 2 cooldowns, for your 1 cooldown, dodge and 1/3 of your hp.

Now I do my condi burst, after 1s you cleanse. I lose 7 cooldowns, you lose 1/3 hp and 1 cleanse. the end.

see whats better?Difference between 2 sec and 4s is IMMENSE.Expecially with condi, if you cleanse it all goes poof and no more damage.What insane condi builds CC? If anything power builds have MORE CC then condi builds.

Condi builds.Core necro. -> lots of fears but they get cleansed, it only gets unhealthy when you have stab. in the end its not too much. 2x hard CC + cripple + potential corrupt boon fear.C mirage -> depending on build its p5 stun, couple of cripples, and 1-3 dazes + slow. iits not much at all. 2-4 hard CC + criple and slow.Fire weaver ( it still deals alright power dmg due to 25 might )

Then we have power builds, whoopie.S/P thief -> daze on f1, s3 spam that stuns + HS short daze for interrupts. More then condi buildsD/S+GS SPB -> D2-> slow, D3-> daze/stun. Any burst-> tether=pull. BCharge=knockdow, s4=stun.rampage= 3x hard cc. f2=daze.GS=cripple.+ potential stomp for konockdow. Thats more CC then 2 condi builds combined tbh. 8/9 hard CC + slow and crippleHolo -> Rifle immob. Rifle knockdow. Holo 5 knockdow.PLB knockdow. 3x hard CC + immob.

As you can see most power builds have MUCH more CC then condi builds.

Condi builds don't usually need CC though. Their "burst" is either multi-hit or AoE and most often ranged. The reason power builds need CC is because their burst are highly telegraphed and easily evaded or interrupted but you picked probably the most problematic burst combo as an example. What you leave out of your argument is condi builds can apply this slightly less bursty pressure while not having to sacrifice leaving them selves open. It doesn't matter if something like mirage or weaver can't burst you as fast as ranger by a couple seconds (and weaver totally can) because they don't allow you to fight back. With ranger, once I stun break their knockback I can immediately start counter pressuring. With mirage I cannot because they will be invuln while applying confusion and torment, both conditions that punish you for retaliating against them. Then they will blink/jaunt/ect until their big burst is off CD all while spattering you with more condi and interrupts. You make it sound like condi mirage and fire weaver is a 1-and-done but it's far from it. The number of condi they can apply WHILE playing defensively is stupid.

big LOL.highly telegraphed what?how is holo snare telegraphed? or holo knockdown?how is pistolwhip telegraped if theif casts it behinda wall and ports on you.warrior has telegraphs I agree, but all those classes have multihits. you are straw manning to hate on condi.

PoWeRbUiLdS need CC becouse skills are telegraphed -> personal opinion.

All holo skills are highly telegraphed and their stealth predictable. Wait 3 seconds and dodge, 95% of holos will whiff their stealth CC. I can avoid all their damage on sound cues alone. After the thief opens on you, you know exactly what to expect and they are not going to kill you in one combo unless you're a glass ele. I expect you play mesmer though you're just screwed vs theif anyways. I'm not straw manning, I'm providing counter arguments. You're incorrectly classifying my arguments to cover a bad rebuttal. Multi-hit power is much different than multi hit condi. For instance, if I only land three hits from hundred blades big whoop, but if you land three hits and load me up with several stacks of confusion/torment and I dont have a cleanse up? Rip. No power build can spam damage in the way something like fire weaver or condi mirage can while having the invuln uptime they do.

you dont dodge plb by waiting 3s every time. he might use it instantly or he might wait.he can have quickness to land it after 1,5s or not and even land it after 5s.rifle knockback and net shot has no tell.the only skill that has tell for holo is holo 5, but since its overnerfed its not even worth using most of the time.

there is no difference, 3 hits from my scepter 3 will apply 3 confusion thats useless and deal 500-1000dmg.3 hits from hundred blades will take 3k+ dmg.same with holo pistol thingy same with all other power multihits.with invuln uptime you are wrong AGAIN, warrior has way more mitigation then mirage has.low CD gs 3, low cd full counter, extra endurance from might gain and burst skills for extra dodges and many others, all while weaving BIG hits inbetween.how much time to react do you have for gs3 from warrior in melee? 0,2s?0,3s? if you dont its boom 5-10k dmg. 1 skill, that evades.

You get hit by whirlwind? Warriors usually have this big sign above their head when they approach you with GS out that says "Hey, look, I'm walking towards you with my GS out, chances are I'm about to whirlwind" and if they whirlwind from a distance its an ez "walk out of the way". Yes, you honestly can predict stealth attacks. Matter in fact you can predict just about any stealth attack aside from permastealth deadeye.

That was just done on intuition (or maybe sound queue? My audio is off rn). If you see them stealth you can more times than not know when they are going to hit you. I dodge almost 100% of power mes burst if I see them stealth and same goes for holo. All it takes is thinking "When would I attack if I were them". You pick warrior like it's this hard thing to fight on condi mirage but condi mirage can make minced meat of warriors or about any profession that doesn't have copious amounts of cleanse and resistance. All warrior has is its two "Shake it off!" and healing signet resistance which if they pop they are dead anyways. If they are running mend they "might" last a little longer but you can easily interrupt it on mesmer. The difference between your three scepter hits and my three hundred blade hits is that hundred blades is rooted, melee, and slow without quickness. If you dodge and staff 1 that's up to 4 stacks of torment, bleed, and burn that seek. you. out. from. range. and this can be spammed back to back.

Also, what invuln up time? You mean the short lasting long cooldown stances which barely anyone runs in spvp now days? The also longer cooldown passives of defense line? Which btw barely anyone uses in spvp. If you don't think the potential of condi mirage and fire weaver is broken then I wonder if you've ever fought against them on something other than those professions. Warrior is hardly anything to complain about. That's like complaining how OP necro is.